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Hey everyone quick question about the Oracles Awesome Display revelation.
I am getting ready to start a Serpents Skull campaign and I am planning on taking my first level as a sorcerer then a 1 level dip into Oracle of the heavens for awesome display. I will then be taking the rest in sorcerer.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
I am in the middle of an argument with one of my DM's. He is telling me that this will not work with my Sorcerer spells. The way I read it is that it should work with ANY "pattern" spells.
What do you guys think?
-Venom
I think it works with any pattern spell as worded. I also think your DM is within his rights to restrict it to oracle spells only.
Well, by RAW it's not limited to Oracle spells. However, it IS a specific class feature of the oracle, so my personal ruling would be Oracle spells only.
Would be great to get an official word on this. I can think of some other classes that have similar spell-altering abilities like the Bloodline Arcana of the Arcane Bloodline or some of the wizard specialist features.
Still, as I sad in my game a spell altering class ability would only affect the spellls of this specific class.
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It does not specify anything on it so all spells of that type are effected by that ability. It does ramp up color spray quite a bit. I can understand his concern.
You figure you take it at level 2 and have 20 CHA. That means you totally cripple anything with 7 or fewer HD.
It will be worse as a straight Oracle since I will also have access to eagles splendor at that level. I would effectively be able to put 9 HD creatures out for 2d4 rounds or more. In any case this makes color spray an awesome spell up through mid levels.
I was also have a question regarding the Serpentine bloodline arcana. Would it affect my Divine spells?
I do not have my book with me atm, but it allows my mind affecting spells the ability to affect animals, magical beasts, and such as if they were humanoids and understood my language.
-Venom
It will be worse as a straight Oracle since I will also have access to eagles splendor. I would effectively be able to put 9 HD creatures out for 2d4 rounds or more.
As a straight Oracle, you would have less pattern spells. Most importantly, you wouldn't have access to Scintillating Pattern, which is total overkill with Awesome Display.
I was also have a question regarding the Serpentine bloodline arcana. Would it affect my Divine spells?
Well, I guess we'll add that one to the list of spell altering class ablities that need clarification.
So, everyone, flag this topic for FAQ!
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It will be worse as a straight Oracle since I will also have access to eagles splendor. I would effectively be able to put 9 HD creatures out for 2d4 rounds or more.As a straight Oracle, you would have less pattern spells. Most importantly, you wouldn't have access to Scintillating Pattern, which is total overkill with Awesome Display.
I was also have a question regarding the Serpentine bloodline arcana. Would it affect my Divine spells?Well, I guess we'll add that one to the list of spell altering class ablities that need clarification.
So, everyone, flag this topic for FAQ!
It is a shame I have never had the opportunity to play a character of a level high enough to get 8th level spells. 8th and 9th level spells are always just there to tease me! Not to mention most AP's stop right around that level.
The ability is supernatural -- therefore it is neither divine or arcane. Yes the ability in question comes from a divine class -- but it says "Each creature affected by your Illusion(pattern) spells..."
It doesn't say "Each creature affected your oracle Illusion(pattern) spells..." Or "each creature affected by your divine Illusion(pattern) spells"
Now I've had an issue with this power since it came out -- it doesn't make color spray last until the mid levels -- it makes it last all the way up into top tier play. Consider that an oracle can easily have a Cha of 36 at level 20 (honestly even earlier) -- that's a +13 mod -- meaning anyone 15th level or under is going to go down to this first level spell (and considering we are talking about a DC in the 24~26 range without using heighten spell or anything it is likely to work) even at level 8 you can easily be subtracting 8~9 from the hit dice of the creatures affected meaning you are still affecting creatures level 10~11. By level 12 you can be looking at subtracting 10~11 with this, so again you stay ahead.
However dispite the power of the ability there is nothing in the rules text that limits this power to oracle spells only.
As to you "barbarian/rogue" comparision -- the character in question (oracle x/ sorcerer 1) won't be using the color spray spell at his highest caster level. His concentration checks will be 1+cha mod+feats/whatever and against spell resistance he'll only be rolling a d20+1 when he casts the spell as a sorcerer. However he has picked a good spell for this effect since beyond spell resistance caster level doesn't really matter on it -- that's simply good spell choice though, not a "loophole" or "barbarian 12/rogue 1 using sneak attack as a rogue 13" since the caster level, concentration checks, etc is still at the base 1 level.
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Of course your table your rules... I would point out however that an oracle x/ Sorcerer x isn't going to be a power house anyways... and this ability has no affect on undead, constructs, and many other creatures.
I'd agree that since it doesn't specify otherwise and is a supernatural ability (one not directly related to the casting of the spells themselves) it would probably work with all illusion (pattern) spells.
Of course, after reading the oracle more closely I'd have to say it might be one of the most powerful classes I've ever seen (with the right mystery and revelations). The life mystery oracle is absolutely brilliant (the healer of all healers), with the stone, wind and heavens oracles not far behind.
Your first few sentences confirm my dilemma of wanting clarity on the usage of 'YOU', 'YOUR' and 'MY'. If 'YOUR' is meant, in the section inside the oracle text, as the player themselves including spells from any class, then so be it. It'd still be OP in my opinion, but it wouldn't be 'illegal'. I have read, however, places where those pronouns are ambiguous and could be taken one way or the other. That is, to the detriment or benefit to the player character.
My point is not to be an arse of a DM here. It's game balance in the Serpent's Skull AP. If it were a home-grown adventure then I could cater it to such min-maxed players...no biggie. But, I would rather not have to modify the AP just to keep game balance. I mean, what DM wants to get to a climactic part of an adventure just to have it last one round? (sleep > coup de grace > loot the room, etc...) Surely not I nor any other DM I would think. We DM's want to have fun too ;-)
-m
See I don't disagree that it is very powerful (indeed I think it very well could be too powerful), I'm just pointing out that it is legal, by RAW currently.
As a GM though I wouldn't mind asking a player to not do this, on the grounds that the players don't want me doing this to them (especially since I'll widen and heighten it first).
This related FAQ should answer your question. I'm also going to update that FAQ entry to address the question in a more general sense, which will answer all questions of this variety.
From the DM perspective, my thoughts on level dipping go like this. Okay, you want to take a level of Oracle to get Awesome Display, no problem. However, since you're doing it in play, not at character creation, you need to explain how exactly you get chosen as an Oracle when that would normally be the DM's job.
AKA You better give me a good story to go with this since your character has been established and now the gods/divine powers need a reason to choose you specifically to be have a margin of the power of the Heavens. Why would they do that? Give me a very convincing reason/story and then play it out otherwise your level of Oracle is denied.
We standardly kind of play that you can make whatever decisions you want with characters until you try to add stuff that just doesn't go with established flow, like adding another class, prestige classes, stuff of that nature. Then you have to have a reason it works (training, story, downtime to do whatever you need to qualify).
I don't see any difference between "why would the gods choose you as an oracle of fire?" and "why would this fire god accept you as a cleric?"
In other words, don't use roleplaying to balance mechanics, and don't use mechanics to balance roleplaying.
In other other words, if a sorcerer wants to dip a level in oracle, let them. They're trading off 1 level of sorcerer spellcasting (a huge cost, especially at higher levels) for a low-level benefit.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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For those worried about color spray's insane awesomeness, remember that it is still a very short-range spell that requires your sorcerer to get very close to the enemy, often closer than the 15-foot max range to avoid blasting party members that might be in the cone. The sorc better be sure it works is all I'm sayin...
If you Oracle has a Cha Mod of 4 and your Awesome Display is used on a creature of 4 HD or less, what happens when the creature is treated as 0 HD or less?
Does it die from lack of Hit points or What???
Doesn't say 'oracle spells', so any appropriate spells are affected.
If you Oracle has a Cha Mod of 4 and your Awesome Display is used on a creature of 4 HD or less, what happens when the creature is treated as 0 HD or less?
Does it die from lack of Hit points or What???
What the hell are you talking about?
I'm confused by the people saying this overpowered. Why is this any stronger then just being a Heavens Oracle? I mean ya Scintillating Pattern is good stuff and all, but realistically at that level a Half-Elf Oracle with Eldritch Heritage could be hacking the Arcane list with Paragon Surge to be tossing out Scintillating Pattern anyway... so why is Sorcerer 1/ Heaven Oracle 1 somehow scarier then Heaven Oracle 2 who can also Color Spray with Awesome Display? While the multiclass has more spells per day it'd have the same number of Color Sprays as the Oracle 2 and the Oracle 2 is only 2 levels away from level 2 spells while the multiclass is going to be sitting for 3 levels. Really I don't understand the logic at all.
(Also don't forget to take Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master/Wayang Spellhunter for Persistent Color Sprays OP. (Grab a Threnodic Rod, Lesser when you get a chance.)
What the hell are you talking about?If you Oracle has a Cha Mod of 4 and your Awesome Display is used on a creature of 4 HD or less, what happens when the creature is treated as 0 HD or less?
Does it die from lack of Hit points or What???
The power reads:
Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).If your Charisma modifier was 4 (18 Charisma) and a 3 HD creature was effected it's HD would be 3-4 or Neg 1 HD. Read... Neg hit points.
Its only for being affected by your illusion pattern spells. It's literally right there in the text. What kind of misunderstanding are you reading?
Ahhh, got ya, it's HD is lowered for the effect if it fails it's save vs your Illusion pattern spells! Thx much friend.