HP: 21 AC: 15 (Chain Shirt +4, Dex +1)
Str 16
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Chr 10
(15 point build)
Feats: Toughness, Combat Casting
Attack: Longsword +4 (1D8 +3)
Spells 4/3 (0-Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash 1-Shield, Magic Weapon, Shocking Grasp)
Other party member: Battle Oracle and Rogue.
Fight against 3 wolves.
Initiative Rogue, wolves, Magus, Battle Oracle.
Round 1: the rogue using short bow to shoot the wolves. Scores 1 hit for 3 damage. Battle Oracle casts divine Favor, I cast shield with the Magus.
Round 2: The wolves enter melee range. Rogue shoots again at 15 range missing. Drops bow uses move action to pull a rapier. Wolves move into attack. One wolf move to flank the rogue, the other two move into attack the rogue. 2 bite attacks 1 hits for 5 damage, the trip fails. I take 5 foot step and use spell combat to cast shocking grasp and swing at the wolf. I fail the defensive casting check provoking an attack of opportunity. The wolf bites but misses. My attack with the long sword misses due the -4 to attack. The battle oracle moves to intercept the wolf trying to move into flanking. Attacks and hits 9 damage.
Round 3: The rogue tumbles to into flanking position with the wolf I'm fighting. Attack and hits for 8 damage. The 2 wolves on me attack me, both miss due to the shield spell. I attack and connect this time as I'm not using spell combat on the healthy wolf. The wolf I hit dies with lucky max damage roll combined with the shocking grasp. The Oracle hits again killing his wolf.
Round 3: the rogue kills the last wolf.
My thoughts,
The Spell Combat didn't work out so well. That -4 to hit pretty nasty. Still it's not like I couldn't have hit reasonably on decent roll. I can see when that -4 drops to -2 that will make up for things being Higher AC at 8th level. Still on the flip side I didn't get hit due that shield spell.
Level 2 seems fairly balanced to me. A bonus to hit would be nice hence the reason I took magic weapon, true strike would be my next spell I prepare when I get 4 spells per day.
I can see it being way too easy to burn through the spells with the Magus. I mean in one combat I used 2 of my 3 prepared spells. If I start blowing spell for bonus using Magic Arcana I'll be out spells after 2 combats. Resource management is key. It's not like the Inquisitor I'm playing. Usually I have 1 or 2 rounds to buff before I'm in melee. After that I don't cast spell. But being able to cast spells or use your prepared spells in combat it's all too easy to use it all up in one fight.
Missed one thing I should have added. I the lost the spell with casting defensively. But we rolled back to try casting normally where I provoke an attack of opportunity. If hit I'd have to roll concentration against the damage taken + the spell level. We did this to see if there was difference.
In this case I was better off taking an attack of opportunity as the wolves needed a 17 to hit me. So 16 in 20 chance of success for my spell. Casting Defensively is 50/50 chance.
I'm just now reading through the actual class itself. . . and I'm curious about using spell combat at 2nd level. When would this be practical? Concentration checks are the bane of spellcasters in pathfinder. Tacking on a -2 to an already difficult DC is a big pain. According to the mechanic, you must make a casting on the defensive check, even if you're not threatened by an attack of opportunity. There's also the -4 to melee attacks, a huge penalty at early levels.
Edit: I guess the penalty diminishes at 8th level and goes away at 20th. . . but still, 7 levels of a -2 concentration check is pretty rough, especially when concentration checks are so rough during that time.
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Edit: I guess the penalty diminishes at 8th level and goes away at 20th. . . but still, 7 levels of a -2 concentration check is pretty rough, especially when concentration checks are so rough during that time.
And a simple trait negates the penalty (focused mind, +2 conc) not to mention a feat that negates it (combat casting +4 cast defensive) Its really not that big of a deal.
I've a 5th lvl magus that has a +12 to concentration so he succeeds casting a 1st lvl spell defensively on a 5 or higher. Not that bad for being able to cast a spell and attack in the same round.
Another thing to note, and I find it kinda interesting.
Round 1: cast a spell, make melee attacks at -4, spell misses.
Round 2: make melee attack and use spell strike if it hits to discharge the spell.
If you were using a normal caster, it would look like this
Round 1: cast a spell, make touch attack, spell misses
Round 2: make a touch attack.
So in essence for a -2 on the concentration check you are getting 2 melee attacks. Sure the first melee attack is at a -4, but a normal caster would have gotten any melee attacks.
Edit: I guess the penalty diminishes at 8th level and goes away at 20th. . . but still, 7 levels of a -2 concentration check is pretty rough, especially when concentration checks are so rough during that time.And a simple trait negates the penalty (focused mind, +2 conc) not to mention a feat that negates it (combat casting +4 cast defensive) Its really not that big of a deal.
I've a 5th lvl magus that has a +12 to concentration so he succeeds casting a 1st lvl spell defensively on a 5 or higher. Not that bad for being able to cast a spell and attack in the same round.
I don't really look at the trait as negating the penalty. You are still at -2 compared to anyone who doesn't have the -2 penalty. As well I don't like it when a Class pretty much forces you to take feat let alone a trait.
I'd suggest a fix of removing the -2 and giving combat casting a bonus 1st level. Or make spell Combat provide +4 (or +2 if the developers really want to keep the penalty) to concentration which doesn't stack with Combat Casting. The trait bonus would still apply though.
Another option if keeping the penalty is really needed is to base the penalty off spell level. Instead of -2 penalty it's -1 per spell level. Of course this impacts the higher levels but by then you can handle the negative better and it makes 20th level True Magus ability worthwhile in most instances.
Edit: I guess the penalty diminishes at 8th level and goes away at 20th. . . but still, 7 levels of a -2 concentration check is pretty rough, especially when concentration checks are so rough during that time.And a simple trait negates the penalty (focused mind, +2 conc) not to mention a feat that negates it (combat casting +4 cast defensive) Its really not that big of a deal.
I've a 5th lvl magus that has a +12 to concentration so he succeeds casting a 1st lvl spell defensively on a 5 or higher. Not that bad for being able to cast a spell and attack in the same round.
Traits are not standard in Pathfinder. . . and I don't think they should be considered baseline in testing a Pathfinder product.
Also, 1st level spells aren't what you really care about at 5th level -- if you want the most bang for your buck, you'd use 2nd level spells. (Maybe the mechanic is designed to make you use lower level spells?)
Let's take a 15 point buy magus at 5th level. . . typically with 18 Int and Combat Casting. Assuming the "balanced" approach for gear, only 25% of the budget should be spent on getting "other magic items" like Headbands of Intellect, so at this level you technically shouldn't have one. The earliest level you can assume to have a +2 headband with the balanced budgeting rules is level 6 (with a 16,000gp budget).
The DC to cast a 2nd level spell on the defensive is 19. The bonus you'd get is 5 (caster level) + 4 (Int modifier) + 4 (Combat Casting) - 2 (spell combat penalty) = +11. You'd have a 35% chance to fail casting a 2nd level spell. That means, in terms of statistics, that the spell really is only 65% effective. That's a pretty big chunk of effectiveness lost immediately.
Things improve when you use a 1st level spell. And things improve when you start factoring things like the focused mind trait. But does this imply a requirement to take the Combat Casting feat? Or that things will get easier once spell resistance becomes a factor?
Spells 4/3 (0-Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash 1-Shield, Magic Weapon, Shocking Grasp)
Magic Weapon: Wouldn't a better choice be true strike? Pretty much guarantees a hit unlike Magic weapon (magic weapon seems too situational, only need when fight incorporeals or Dr/magic dudes).
Granted magic weapon lasts whole battle, but +1 hit with a -4 penalty on that attack seems like a bad plan.
Sure the first melee attack is at a -4, but a normal caster would have gotten any melee attacks.
Based on the behavior of firing into melee mechanics, I see a lot of attacks from players in the early levels made with this penalty. Generally speaking, this is a very bad deal.
Let's look at Mr. Magus 5th level -- let's assume he has a +1 weapon (which is in his budget) and Weapon Focus: Longsword.
BaB: +3
Str: most likely 14 (+2) with 15 point buy (15 + stat point -> Int)
Weapon Focus: +1
Magic Weapon: +1
Arcane Weapon: +1
Total: +8 attack bonus
Let's assume Mr. Magus took arcane accuracy as his Magus Arcana. So let's assume he spends a swift action to gain a +2 bonus to hit.
Current bonus: +10 attack bonus
And let's assume he gets a flank: +12 attack bonus.
But now, he must take a -4 to hit to use spell combat. So his bonus drops to +8.
A shambling mound is a nice benchmark CR 6 monster (challenging). Mr. Magus misses 50% of the time (19 AC).
So Assuming he's using a 2nd level spell. . .
50% chance to hit with the weapon. 65% chance to cast the spell (saves/SR do not count in this percentage).
Cost: 2 level 2 spell slots.
Doesn't that seem kind of expensive for the benefit?
Spells 4/3 (0-Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash 1-Shield, Magic Weapon, Shocking Grasp)Magic Weapon: Wouldn't a better choice be true strike? Pretty much guarantees a hit unlike Magic weapon (magic weapon seems too situational, only need when fight incorporeals or Dr/magic dudes).
Granted magic weapon lasts whole battle, but +1 hit with a -4 penalty on that attack seems like a bad plan.
Don't forget the +1 damage. If it was just +1 to hit I'd have gone True strike. But +1 to hit and damage for 20 rounds just seems better to me.
50% chance to hit with the weapon. 65% chance to cast the spell (saves/SR do not count in this percentage).
I think you are looking at it wrong.
If the magus misses with the touch spell, they can try again next round without the penalty. Missing with the touch spell isn't that big of a deal.
Put a level 5 wizard in the same situation.
Pro - The wizard has a +2 to chance of casting on the defensive.
Same - The wizard probably has a much lower + to hit. I am thinking 10 str with a +2 BAB against a touch AC of 9 = 65% chance to hit with the touch spell.
Con - The wizard doesn't get the extra melee attack.
Also, I skimmed so someone already may have mentioned that failing a defensive casting check causes you to lose the spell, but you don't provoke an attack of opportunity.
50% chance to hit with the weapon. 65% chance to cast the spell (saves/SR do not count in this percentage).
I think you are looking at it wrong.
If the magus misses with the touch spell, they can try again next round without the penalty. Missing with the touch spell isn't that big of a deal.
I'm not even talking about touching with the touch spell. I'm talking about a 65% chance that the spell will cast at all. The concentration check is my entire discussion here. Missing with the melee touch attack isn't an issue -- especially with the spellstrike mechanic.
Put a level 5 wizard in the same situation.
Pro - The wizard has a +2 to chance of casting on the defensive.
Same - The wizard probably has a much lower + to hit. I am thinking 10 str with a +2 BAB against a touch AC of 9 = 65% chance to hit with the touch spell.
Con - The wizard doesn't get the extra melee attack.
But the wizard doesn't have to cast the spell on the defensive. He can cast the spell outside of a threat range and hold the touch delivering it. He can also be invisible and cast the touch spell, avoiding the need to cast on the defensive.
Also, I skimmed so someone already may have mentioned that failing a defensive casting check causes you to lose the spell, but you don't provoke an attack of opportunity.
That's always the case with casting on the defensive. The problem is that in PF that DC is now quite painful if your characters follow 15 point buy and balanced gear progression.
Also, I skimmed so someone already may have mentioned that failing a defensive casting check causes you to lose the spell, but you don't provoke an attack of opportunity.That's always the case with casting on the defensive. The problem is that in PF that DC is now quite painful if your characters follow 15 point buy and balanced gear progression.
I'm aware, I was just referring to the OP which described the player failing his check to cast defensively, losing the spell AND taking an AoO.
I'm aware, I was just referring to the OP which described the player failing his check to cast defensively, losing the spell AND taking an AoO.Also, I skimmed so someone already may have mentioned that failing a defensive casting check causes you to lose the spell, but you don't provoke an attack of opportunity.That's always the case with casting on the defensive. The problem is that in PF that DC is now quite painful if your characters follow 15 point buy and balanced gear progression.
Ahh, I didn't see that. Good catch!