What levels of play do you enjoy the most?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


In light of the fact that I haven't played in a campaign that has gone beyond 12th level in many years, I did some research in these forums. One thread had someone comment that epic play was some of their most enjoyable game time, while others have never played an epic character. James Jacobs has commented that he wants to rework epic levels (20+). Almost everyone has played low level games. However many groups see campaigns fall apart in the teens.

What levels do you enjoy the most and why? What am I missing by not playing in campaigns that get into the teens?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I enjoy running games from levels 1-8.

Anything beyond that starts to get a little headache-worthy for me, as it becomes more difficult to adapt to ever escalating player options.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013

12-20. I'd include epic levels if I really trust my Dm and my players. But around these parts, you end up facing extended implsion and Doomspeak. I whine about it because it hurt my soul. Not to mention my NPCs.

I like roleplaying, and I like for the story to be big in scale, and I like the stage in the game where you've created for yourself one mor more nemeses.


Levels 1-10 are those that I enjoy most, take or add couple. Often it depend on players how much I enjoy running a game and it doen't depend on which level we are playing. As a gm I prefer quick combat and more roleplaying so when combats start to take over 2 hours it is too much for me. When players are focused and know what they are doing it doesn't matter which level we are playing. Often level 1-10 are most quick paced so like them most.

Shadow Lodge

My favorites are roughly 2-10 with my favorite level occurring right around 6-7. This is one of the reasons E6 is such an appealing idea to many of us.

FYI - James has also commented that Paizo's own research has indicated the majority of players enjoy 1-12. I'm sure if you search for it, you'll find his posts regarding the subject.


As I posted in another thread the higher the better for me :) The level 30+ games I have played in were great fun and 1 of those we started at level 1 so made it all the better. I love to play and DM high level games, I dont really know why I just do :P


Steven T. Helt wrote:

12-20. I'd include epic levels if I really trust my Dm and my players. But around these parts, you end up facing extended implsion and Doomspeak. I whine about it because it hurt my soul. Not to mention my NPCs.

I like roleplaying, and I like for the story to be big in scale, and I like the stage in the game where you've created for yourself one mor more nemeses.

+1

This is my favorite range, particularly as a GM. It's nice and bad @ss and I can get really nasty with the villians. Unfortuantely I refuse to simply start the game there and it can take a while to build up.

Dark Archive

2 to 8, ish, for me.

High level gaming, in my limited experience, has devolved into whatever the Wizard wants, he can do, or, more typically, his army of dragon simulacra can do for him...


as a player I enjoy levels 8-15 since thats the level IMO where you characters finally bridge the gap from good to great, ending at 15 because most campaigns I've played in have ended at that level.

As a GM I prefer 6-12 because that is where you get in the "meat and potatoes" of a story. Also its the level that I as a GM take off the kids gloves.


My group prefers mid to high level (9-20) level play. We try and do one adventure every year for them to bring out the epic characters. Every so often it is nice to go back and start at 1st level, to reinforce just how wimpy those characters are, and what fun it is to play characters that can actually do something.

We have been using the adventure paths, and our only gripe with them is that they end too soon, just when the characters are getting to be competent.

Oh, and as someone who has run a LOT of high level play, through all five iterations of D&D (1st Ed, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5, and PF), I can say it's not always, or even not often that it comes down to 'what the wizard wants'. Properly played and equiped fighters end just as many battles (I crit twice for 302), as the wizard or druid. As always, a team that functions together has much more success than any one PC trying to outdo the others.

Given 30 years, the best strategy, by far, seems to be that the wizards handle the mooks, killing them off very quickly, leaving the fighters to close with BBEG, and occupy if not kill him. I can remember as many battles ended quickly by the addition of some buff spells, or a bardsong, as won by wizards with SAD spells. In effect, it is a team effort, nobody can or should do it on the own.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Our group prefers levels 9 to 20+

Every campaign I have run in 35 years has gone into the high teens or epic.


Major__Tom wrote:


Oh, and as someone who has run a LOT of high level play, through all five iterations of D&D (1st Ed, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5, and PF), I can say it's not always, or even not often that it comes down to 'what the wizard wants'. Properly played and equiped fighters end just as many battles (I crit twice for 302), as the wizard or druid.

Sure... as long as we're talking about combat... with something the fighter can reach, hit, and damage... and the wizard isn't trying very hard.

About the time one player wishes for something, a second player counterspells that wish, and a third player busts out quickened miracle to make the first thing happen after all, you realize that it's a caster's world at the high levels, high damage crits notwithstanding.

Myself, I used to really prefer the midlevels, but now I'm on more towards the low levels, because I prefer to play casters and it's more fun for me to have to work hard to contribute, rather than work hard to not overshadow the rest of the table. That being said, I haven't yet played a PF game that's gotten to the higher levels, and probably it's less extreme than 3.0/3.5.

Liberty's Edge

1 - 20.

Highest I've ever DMed naturally was 1 - 10 or so, that wasn't bad. Did a one shot on RPoL that was around 18th level, that wasn't bad either (though, I have a feeling I just got a great bunch of players who were taking it easy on me :p).

Never DMed anything past, 20, though. I have played in a post-20 game (level 28, to be precise) but it was my first game of 3.5 so there really wasn't anything insane going on; I was just too busy being mystified that my Wizard could finally fight with a sword!

Liberty's Edge

Karameikos wrote:
What levels do you enjoy the most and why? What am I missing by not playing in campaigns that get into the teens?

I'm just making the transition to PF. So, I don't have a lot of direct experience with this edition.

I've been playing for over 30 years. I've never played past 15th level. In general, I prefer playing in the 5-8 range. As to why, I guess because it fits better for me with literature that spawned my interest in RPGs in the first place. I like my game grittier rather than uber.


Howie23 wrote:
... I guess because it fits better for me with literature that spawned my interest in RPGs in the first place. I like my game grittier rather than uber.

About the same, fof the same reasons. I had this conversation with a friend the other day- I prefer high fantasy to epic, Earthsea to Riftworld, LoTR to Wheel of time. Once you cross the 11th -12th level threshold it crosses into areas I'm not real comfortable with or interested as far as planar travel, ending continental or global threats, etc. At least as a DM. As a player we've done one off into the high teens, and it was fun, but a lot of work for the DM.

"There are 75 townsfolk that have been captured by the evil fey and you have to get them all back to town safely, through this dark, thorny forest!! Muwahahaha!!! "

""Um, I have a wand of Fly, so I buddy them up and send them on their merry way."

"Oh..."


25+ woudl be my favored range, not that I ever get to play it.


I like level 1. Imho, you don't actually become better at anything as you gain levels, because the world's numbers scale with your own. You simply become more specialized, because you only retain the capacity for success in areas that you invested in. It also means that you need to immerse yourself in the fantasy world in order to solve problems because you can't just cast Wish. Realistic versatility and problem solving make the game way more fun to me.

Dark Archive

I personally love levels 4-10. They allow allow all the classes to begin to shine at whatever it IS they are trying to focus on without allowing for overly complicated or super-powerful concepts that break the 4th wall too much. It is also a level where the PC's can be scared by something, instead of the god-complex most PC's develop after about level 12 where they simply assume they can take on any challenge put in front of them.


my favorite levels are 12-16. though my saturday dm never goes above 15. i like having all those toys to play with. multiclass hybrids are finally starting to bloom, 9th level spells haven't come into play yet. players have the resouces to get most of thier desired bonuses. or at the very least, a way to aquire those resources. casters have become more diverse in thier spell choices and have determined thier own set signature spell selection rather than the same generic list of spells that everyone else picks out of a feeling of necessity. players are finally developing a true bond with thier characters. heroes are evolving into the stock of legends. villains are on a cataclysmic power level. stuff tends to reach anime/wuxia levels of awesomeness. there are just so many awesome things about that level range.


I like epic play the best.

Partly because I get to play it so rarely that it is never boring for me and partly for the challenges ( dealing with whole armies of demons or a demi-god for example).

I also really enjoy the politics that such levels should generate. There is such a potential for empire building and politics that it would be impossible to relate all the applications here. Suffice it to say that such characters should always be sought after by someone (friend, or foe).
I think that is one of the reasons -fluff wise- so few of these characters appear on a Prime; they are constantly bothered by somebody. At least in the planes with their vast variety of powerful beings and immense distances, an epic level character is more or less another face in the crowd.

Also, I like the ability to change or add to the game world in significant ways that don't break the game.

E.g. start an empire, defeat an ancient evil, save the world, create spells that stand the test of time, make artifacts, create a religion etc.

Liberty's Edge

I've actually never played in an epic level game so I can't comment on that.

I tend to like the middle levels best ... say levels 6 - 15 or so. That's really where things work best, in my opinion.

My weekly group just hit level 12 in Council of Thieves (12th level Sorcerer, Paladin, Monk, Rogue/Shadow Dancer and Vanguard) and we are having a blast!


3-20.

1-2 consists of 'Oh, you got hit, so you're down. Again. Hope you don't get hit a second time or it's new character time. Again.'

21+ consists of too much Mother May I and not enough D&D. That and the only thing epic about it is the meh reaction it provokes.


2 - 8 is where I enjoy the game most !! The game remains fast, the PCs are strong but not unkillable by 90% of the creatures of the world, fighters are not yet the pawns of magic users.

I like playing at level 1 but the problem is that you nearly need to stop after each fight.

9 - 13 begin to become boring : the magic users rule, combat become really complicated.

14+ is really not my taste.


I do start games at level 1, but really I do not enjoy anything less then level 4. I prefer games 10-18 the most. At that point characters really feel like they are amazing at what they do. There are alot more options to do round to round. At level 1 many times characters are left with, "I swing once for 1D6+1 damage", whether they are a cleric, fighter, druid, or anything. Sure casters get level zero spells, but it still feels the same to me.


I like the mid-levels best, roughly 5-12. By 5th level the characters are becoming really good at a few things, and have a significant number of abilities and options. Somewhere around 12th level they begin their transformation into something that probably should be wearing spandex and speaking in a bubble dialogue box. I like superheroes myself, and some of the games that are created for them, but I don't find that the high levels of 3.X/PF are giving me the fantasy roleplaying experience I am looking for, because the power inflation over the years has simply shot to hell my ability to suspend disbelief and immerse myself. Probably because I'm just old and my fantasy preferences were formed more by classic fantasy literature rather than online games, anime and other more recent source material.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2+, but it's when the party hits level 5 that my games really get rolling. Before that they're too fragile or don't have the skills to deal with most of the plots I want to run. But otherwise? I like all of the levels, really.

Liberty's Edge

I like levels 2-10 best, though I dislike starting a campaign higher than level 5 or so. The highest levels I've ever played/GMed have been around level 12 or so, and the myriad of rules, abilities, and powerful spell effects started to wear on everyone in the group. We just hit that level after wrapping up Red Hand of Doom, so luckily there was a good stopping point and we moved on to new characters, retiring the heroes in glory.

I suppose I could play in a game with levels 10-16, but I wouldn't want to GM it. At levels 15+, casters just get too epic for my particular taste in fantasy.


I like them all. As long as the group/DM are worth a spit that is. Any good combo of group and DM and I'm set.

I have to say the single most fun experience levels I had were in the 12 - 18 range.

You're Heros to the masses and still wincing when you see the Dragon Tracks!

Have Fun out there!!

~ W ~


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As a player I tend to get most excited when playing the level 10-25 range.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

10+

I like my games epic, and I like being an epic badass.


I like to play at levels 1-14. Levels after that tend to be very slow because of the vast variety of options for PCs, NPCs and monsters alike. Not to mention, that after that you're doing more math, referencing, and tracking multitudes of conditions and effects in proportion to actually playing the game to make it truly enjoyable.


I am almost always the DM, so I will answer from that perspective. I tend to like levels 5-15+. I like it when the players can do a lot of cool things and I can do a lot of cool things with the villains. I haven't really DMed higher levels (there were a few exceptions, but not enough to get a good feel for the game at the higher levels), since the story has usually run its course by level 15, so it is definitely possible that I would higher levels too. As for lower levels (1-5), I still consider them fun, but more as preparation for the main part of the game. I don't generally start the main plotline in earnest until about level 5 or thereabouts, though foreshadowing do happen earlier of course.

As far as 'Epic' levels go, I am interested in a ruleset for levels above 20, but only if is well-made and meets several conditions, including compatibility with the pre-level 20 rules. I intensely dislike the 3E 'Epic' level system and it is indeed one of the reasons why I plan my storylines to end around level 15 (+/- a few levels - the 5 levels above are a safety margin).


I think all levels have their pros and cons.

the first levels are the grittiest, you have to fight for your money and get things done with nothing but your wits and a sharp piece of metal.

High levels up to twenty and epic are the most badass, a fighter can singlehandedly take down a dragon or other giant monsters and you get all sorts of awesome things.

Mid levels have a bit of both in a nice mix, you can already save or conquer entire towns but there's still things above your head.


The high levels always bog the game down. Between the 4+attacks around and the ridiculous amount of spells or magic item abilities to use, it just seems too much, at least for our group. The one true epic game we played bogged down so badly, half of us we so bored we just didn't care anymore.

I have played games in the high level range and enjoyed them, but the 4-10 spot is the sweet spot of the game for me.


I prefer levels 1 to 10 or 12. It's all fun, really but the sweetest spot for me is probably between 4 and 10th.

Epic level (which I have played) doesn't appeal to me much at all.

Edit to add: Looking again at the other posts, I noticed a lot of people starting with 2nd level and higher. I totally understand that; I used to prefer the levels after 4th or so. But a few years ago I played with a DM who really made first level an absolute blast and now that Pathfinder has kind of powered up 1st level, I find it to be even enjoyable. Besides, there's just something fun about starting out green and fragile with a whole new world of adventure awaiting you.


My favourite is from level 1 up until around level 8. To me characters are already pretty awesome at that point and I prefer playing in a world that doesn't have very many high level characters or monsters. I've played quite a bit at higher levels in the past, but much prefer lower levels in Pathfinder/3.X at least.

The Exchange

I enjoy 12th to 15th the best. It seems you really can customize your character with many options regardless of class and if you pick a prestige class you usually are fairly into it by that point.
Multi-classing also seems to shine at this point as well.


The game really gets fun for me around level 7. I have never gotten past 15, and normally never get past 12 as a player.

The Exchange

I really enjoy running levels 3-12. For my players the sweet spot seems to be levels 5-10. That's where they seem to have the most fun. A couple of players really like to play 12th level and up, but we only do that during off-seasons when there are only 1 or 2 people.


1-9
GRU


I personally prefer running games at 1st to 6th levels. I have two reasons for this. First, I tend to like lower-powered campaigns and so do my players. Lower-levels allow us to do this. Second, I tend to run shot campaigns so we can try new things as they come out and play in more different campaigns.


I'd say whatever level I'm currently playing. I find that each level has it's share of charm and awesomeness. It's nice to start a new character after having been fiddling with character concept and class and abilities and such, and then see him/her bloom into a hero.

Sadly I've rarely played at very high levels due to frequent DM-breakdowns. We have a steady group that's been playing together for the last 10-15 years or so (or more!!!?? Gosh! I'm that old??!!) with few new players joining and a few dropping out.

But it is nice to play at a level where one lucky shot doesn't take you out... :)


5-12 or so.


1+. Seriously.

I like frail level 1 PCs scared by a boar, that struggle to survive and are creative on the use of a 10-foot pole (NO DOUBLE ENTENDRE!).

I like the mid levels, where they are "someone". Struggle not to survive, but to find a place in the world.

I like the high levels, when they are seasoned and have old enemies and old friends in one and more worlds. I really enjoy how the game CHANGES through levels and how changes are MEANINGFUL.

I enjoyed epic levles too, in 3.0 3.5. Bugged to death but very inspiring. 1-40 campaing, people still remember it moved when chance occurs during a dinner or in another game.

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