I believe that the magus needs combat casting as a first level bonus feat. Otherwise, it will simply end up being a feat tax that every magus ends up taking. Concentration is truly pivotal to what they do, it seems both necessary and to make sense.
Perhaps second level if first is too early/powerful? But it definitely needs to be there and early.
So does the fighter get weapon focus at first level? That's pivotal to hitting stuff and is a requirement to specialization at 4th. Also does the wizard get Combat casting because all he does is cast?
So does the fighter get weapon focus at first level? That's pivotal to hitting stuff and is a requirement to specialization at 4th. Also does the wizard get Combat casting because all he does is cast?
A wizard can go his whole career without casting in melee if he is careful. A fighter might switch between melee and ranged frequently or use a variety of weapons against different foes. Casting in close combat is the primary focus of the magus, so it is not a crazy idea that it would get Combat Casting.
So the light armored casting guy is standing next to the brute and casting? Fire ball? Lighting bolt? Casting in melee is a poor tactial choice.
A concentration check to cast and then a save or attack roll to use the spell. The more die rolls the more chances to fail.
The Magus needs concentration to cast a spell and make a melee attack at the same time. The penlty to concentration and attack drops with levels and armor prof improves with level. So the Magus is not limping behind the cleric that get no heavy armor or cast and whack.
Asking for combat casting is a little... Make it a magus arcana, 'bonus to concentration checks' not just defensive casting. Magus get a "fluff" with out making it to powerful.
And to the it's not over powered group. Name the other class that can cast a spell and attack with a melee weapon in the same round at Level 1.
Mr. Fishy will wait.
I struggle to understand why are you being so arrogant and dismissive. The designer himself stated that it is something he considered and is still considering.
And your arguement to "name the other class" makes no sense. It is like saying bards should not changed to allow them to sustain songs as a free action because name the other class that provides bonuses by singing. Casting in melee is what magus do. I can understand why you think free Combat Casting might be overpowered, but not why you find the idea to be pure madness.
Not to mention, a Magus cannot cast a spell and attack with a melee weapon in the same round at level 1.
The way I understand touch spells, they have to cast the spell in round 1 and either touch with their hand, or wait til the next round to attack with the weapon and discharge.
Not to mention, a Magus cannot cast a spell and attack with a melee weapon in the same round at level 1.
The way I understand touch spells, they have to cast the spell in round 1 and either touch with their hand, or wait til the next round to attack with the weapon and discharge.
It's not even so much about touch spells. It's the idea that they're inherently designed to be casting in melee. I think that most people who take such a class will be taking combat casting to combat the difficulty of the concentration checks for that in the earlier levels.
Yes, it does interact with oddly with some of the other abilities. But, it stands that it feels like a feat tax right now.
Personally, having looked at the Magus...Combat Casting wouldn't even be on the list of feats I wanted, or would end up just off it for the cases when the GM sent Fighters with Disruptive at me.
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The -2 to Concentration vs. Combat Casting is interesting. I'm unsure why a class built to cast spells in melee is worse off than other classes that aren't built to cast spells in melee.
The magus is actually better at it, since he can attack and cast in the same round. Makes sense that the concentration check would be harder.
Along those lines, rather than a penalty to concentration, I'd like to see an increase in the concentration DC based on the kind of weapon being used, to better tie spell combat to the "like two-weapon fighting" concept.
Light weapons: +0 DC
One-Handed weapons: +2 DC
I'd say give them Combat Casting for free, but increase the initial penalty to concentration checks to -4 to counterbalance it. Otherwise, just about every magus is going to go for Combat Casting.
Alternately, maybe give a choice of free Arcane Strike or Combat Casting instead?
I would say at the very least add Combat Casting to the list of options for bonus feats. Granted, many will already have it by 5th level, but it helps a little bit. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better solution.
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Honestly I would not even bother taking Combat Casting as a Feat for the Magus. I'd find the Magus Arcana Concentrate to be more useful, and would likely use the feat to enhance my combat abilities instead.
Concentrate is far more useful to me, it gives you a second roll at a bonus, rather than a single roll at a bonus. There are not a lot of low level Arcana that I could not live without, so Concentrate seems to fill the need for Combat Casting.
But that is just me.
So far, yeah I like the Magus.
Question is this available for play in PFS?
[edit]
Concentrate is usable once per day... as an Arcana that seems rather lame when it is fundamental to the niche. Prefer INT Mod + 3 times per day, like most other fundamental abilities are.
Honestly I would not even bother taking Combat Casting as a Feat for the Magus. I'd find the Magus Arcana Concentrate to be more useful, and would likely use the feat to enhance my combat abilities instead.
Concentrate is far more useful to me, it gives you a second roll at a bonus, rather than a single roll at a bonus. There are not a lot of low level Arcana that I could not live without, so Concentrate seems to fill the need for Combat Casting.
But that is just me.
So far, yeah I like the Magus.
Question is this available for play in PFS?
Concentrate is 1/day though, isn't it?
Level -- Concentration Bonus (Int 16 combat casting) -- Max DC
2 -- +7 -- 17
4 -- +9 -- 19
7 -- +12 -- 21
8 -- +14 -- 21
10 -- +17 -- 23
13 -- +20 -- 25
16 -- +23 -- 27
Just to clarify here I've not included stat boosting items. At level eight you can have a +2 int booster, at level 10 a +4 int booster and by level 13 a +6 int booster. With those in place the bonuses become:
+15 at 8th
+19 at 10th
+23 at 13th
If you buy a book of clear thought +4 at 16th level you will get an additional +2 on the check at that point giving you a total bonus at level 16 of +28.
This isn't counting the focused mind trait which gives a +2 on concentration checks, which would raise all bonuses to the following:
+9, +11, +14, +16, +19, +22, +25
With the above stat boosters:
+ 17 (8th)
+ 21 (10th)
+ 25 (13th)
+ 30 (16th)
So I'm not really seeing a problem here.
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Concentrate is 1/day though, isn't it?Honestly I would not even bother taking Combat Casting as a Feat for the Magus. I'd find the Magus Arcana Concentrate to be more useful, and would likely use the feat to enhance my combat abilities instead.
Concentrate is far more useful to me, it gives you a second roll at a bonus, rather than a single roll at a bonus. There are not a lot of low level Arcana that I could not live without, so Concentrate seems to fill the need for Combat Casting.
But that is just me.
So far, yeah I like the Magus.
Question is this available for play in PFS?
yeah ... sorry I edited too late. :)
Like I said in my edit, I think such a fundamental ability should at least be INT mod + 3 per day.
How about this....
Combat casting as a free feat....
Then use Tom Baumbach's idea...but make it a bit worse, and add in unarmed.
Unarmed - +2 to Concentration DC
Light Weapon - +4 to Concentration DC
One-Handed Weapon - +6 to Concentration DC
Two-Handed Weapon - +8 to Concentration DC
As you level and gain Improved and Great Spell Combat these checks are lessened by 2.
This way you keep the original intent of the class without the obvious clash of having a -2 to concentration while having the combat casting feat.
This also allows for more weapons to be used, but at a price.
I struggle to understand why are you being so arrogant and dismissive. The designer himself stated that it is something he considered and is still considering.
Mr. Fishy is a fish hole.
Look up.
Mr. Fishy threw a rock into a pond. The Paizo Posters will think of a hundred ideas because some jerk threatened there Gish. Mr. Fishy posted on another thread suggesting an Arcana
'Focused Caster' +2 bonus to concentration checks. May be taken more than once.
So does the fighter get weapon focus at first level? That's pivotal to hitting stuff and is a requirement to specialization at 4th. Also does the wizard get Combat casting because all he does is cast?
I'd say yes the fighter does get it. He gets a bonus 1st level feat and the +1 bab required to take it. The wizard doesn't need combat casting. Of course the fighter can choose another feat instead however. That might be good way to go with the Magus. At 2nd level give them a bonus feat. I figure 2nd that's really when a Magus will want Combat Casting as they get spell combat then. By making it a feat though you can leave the a choice for the Magus.
But he has to pay a feat tax to get weapon focus.
One might argue though that considering the sheer number of feats a fighter gets, in his case it is not much of a tax really. Plus, Weapon Focus is also a no-brainer for a fighter, at least as far as I can tell, considering it is the first step towards Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization.
Director of Game Design
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Along those lines, rather than a penalty to concentration, I'd like to see an increase in the concentration DC based on the kind of weapon being used, to better tie spell combat to the "like two-weapon fighting" concept.
Light weapons: +0 DC
One-Handed weapons: +2 DC
Interesting thought.. I am going to think on this one a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
One might argue though that considering the sheer number of feats a fighter gets, in his case it is not much of a tax really. Plus, Weapon Focus is also a no-brainer for a fighter, at least as far as I can tell, considering it is the first step towards Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization.
The feat is required for a tree of feats that only effect one weapon, see tax.
Concentration helped a caster use his primary class ability. Skill tax.
What if the fighter picks up a new weapon? The weapon training helps but there is a difference between WF it's feat tree and not. The Magus gets a list of special abilities and casting and armor and weapons and the list is mighty.
Combat Casting isn't going to break a Magus. More than one poster has complained that clerics are to powerful because of buffs and armor so the Magus should be fine.
Oh, I could not care less whether the Magus gets Combat Casting for free or not. I hardly consider the aforementioned feat a prerequisite for a Magus to be effective.
And I did not say that even for the fighter the Weapon Focus is not a tax, I just said that it is not really that much of a dilemma whether one should take it or not when one takes into account how many feats a fighter gets. Honestly, from my experience anyway, there is almost no fighter out there that does not go down the Weapon Focus tree. Most do without thinking twice, or even once for that matter. Even if they use other weapons, there is always that one weapon type they stick with and get all the pertinent feats for (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats).
I am fairly certain (although this is only an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions) that you could give the fighter Weapon Focus at 2nd and Weapon Specialization at 4th level instead of the bonus feats of those levels and nobody would complain.
It there is no choice involved it could be called bad game design not to give it, however I don´t think this is the case here.
While it will be certainly invaluable in the long run , IF you like casting spells in close range combat, you have so many awesome spells you can cast when not in melee combat. Shield, Mirror Image and Haste are great examples.
So what I am trying to say, is that it might be a superiour option for certain concepts, but Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus and Dodge could be equaly powerfull, maybe even better at level 1.
That said the suggestion to balance the concentration DC based on the weapon makes sense:
Dagger, maybe worth a try for more dedicated casters.
Longsword, standard stuff really - Our Iconic might agree (btw I am sooo happy for him, he is finally becomming a real boy and join the base classes ;) )
Morningstar:I could see a larger penality here, but given the fact, that there is no real advantage to use it.
Mr. Fishy agrees with F. Castor and Banpai that combat casting is very useful to the Magus.
Mr. Fishy does not think that the Magus needs another freebie. The Monk's flurry of blows wasn't given a free feat fix. The spell list has non melee spells. Also the Magus gains heavy and med armor for free.
The lack of a shield does hurt, however clerics lose heavy armor and still cast in melee. Mr. Fishy thinks that a little more research is needed. The Magus has a lot of the same ear marks that made the cleric a monster. Time will tell.
No matter what the final class someone is going to cry foul.
A first level Magus with a good pool of resourse can pull an AC of: 20 [+2dex,+4chain,+4shield spell] That's proud for a first level character.
Mr. Fishy agrees with F. Castor and Banpai that combat casting is very useful to the Magus.
Mr. Fishy does not think that the Magus needs another freebie. The Monk's flurry of blows wasn't given a free feat fix. The spell list has non melee spells. Also the Magus gains heavy and med armor for free.
The lack of a shield does hurt, however clerics lose heavy armor and still cast in melee. Mr. Fishy thinks that a little more research is needed. The Magus has a lot of the same ear marks that made the cleric a monster. Time will tell.
No matter what the final class someone is going to cry foul.
A first level Magus with a good pool of resourse can pull an AC of: 20 [+2dex,+4chain,+4shield spell] That's proud for a first level character.
I am thinking, as I continue to work over various builds and focuses, that Mr. Fishy's opinion on armor is pretty spot on. If the heavy armor is taken away, that will allow a bit of wiggle room for Spell Combat. I had forgotten that clerics lost heavy armor proficiency (never made sense to me, but I didn't care much). I don't particularly like the idea of a caster in full plate. Spell-like abilities sure, but not normal spells with components. Makes me think of that episode of Dexter's Laboratory...
Along those lines, rather than a penalty to concentration, I'd like to see an increase in the concentration DC based on the kind of weapon being used, to better tie spell combat to the "like two-weapon fighting" concept.
Light weapons: +0 DC
One-Handed weapons: +2 DC
Ooooooo. I like that.
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So does the fighter get weapon focus at first level? That's pivotal to hitting stuff and is a requirement to specialization at 4th. Also does the wizard get Combat casting because all he does is cast?A wizard can go his whole career without casting in melee if he is careful. A fighter might switch between melee and ranged frequently or use a variety of weapons against different foes. Casting in close combat is the primary focus of the magus, so it is not a crazy idea that it would get Combat Casting.
So then why doesn't the EK get combat casting?!?
I would not mind it much either if the Heavy Armor bit is taken away. At least in my opinion, the Magus may combine close combat and spellcasting but I do not so much see such a character in, say, full plate. Medium armor, like an elven chain which would remind one of the bladesinger, yes, but the heavy encumbering full plate armor, not really.