Was it a Mistake to Keep Alignment?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Kingbreaker wrote:
I don't have a problem so much with alignments on an individual basis, but when alignments are applied to *whole countries* it bugs me. It stretches realism/verisimilitude for me to imagine an entire nation that is OK with itself being evil.

My take on this was always that most evil characters wouldn't see themselves as such, at least in the sense that evil=wrong. In their minds, they're just doing what anyone else who wasn't stupid would do. To your tribe of orcs, it's "right" that the strongest and most cunning orc runs the show, at least until someone else can supplant him -- the thought that you shouldn't overthrow a chief just because he's the chief, even if he's weak (a sort of lawfulish thought) seems morally wrong to them, and the thought that you shouldn't overthrow the chief because it's wrong to smash his skull and dance in his wiggly brains (a sort of goodish thought) seems morally wrong to them, too. If the chief tries to impress either of these ideas on you as a stronger orc, it's a cunning move on their part that you should not fall for.

As semi-objective players/DMs we call their system of morality chaotic evil, but to an orc shaman, the spells we call detect evil and detect good are probably something like 'detect smart' and 'detect dumb'.

All that aside, I think alignment is at its best in D&D when it's less a straightjacket that the DM or other players use to try to force a player to take or not take a certain action, and more a shorthand for how the character will generally behave.


As many have said, you can easily create a homebrew world that doesn't use the alignment rules. Of course you then need to go back and alter a good bit of stuff in the core rules that applies to alignment. I know people who have done it and who enjoy that type of experience. Like you, they prefer a world with shades of gray, which they believe is "grittier" or "more realistic".

Me personally, I like alignments, when used properly. I have two major reasons. The first is that it provides a convenient conflict-driver. Good vs. Evil and Law vs. Chaos are staples of the fantasy literature from which the game drew much of its inspiration. Any story, and RPGs are communal storytelling, needs conflict to drive it. Alignment helps provide that conflict.

The second reason, as others mentioned, is that it provides RP clues, particularly useful for newer players. It is not a straightjacket (paladins are a special case), and does not, in and of itself, determine a player's actions. It just gives a clue about his worldview, and how he is likely to view certain situations. Sure you could get the same thing, and probably more accurate, by developing an entire personality profile, but alignment is a simple and relatively easy mechanic.

Finally, I like alignments because I like being the "good guy" in my fantasy games. I like slaying the dragon and rescuing the fair maiden, just because it is the right thing to do. Our real world is full of shades of gray and morally and ethically unclear situations, and I "play" in it every day. For me, gaming is pure escapism. I don't want to wallow in the same ethical mud I deal with every day. I want to strap on my sword, hoist my holy symbol, and go open up a can of major league whup-ass on bad guys who aren't just bad, they're EVIL. It may be simplistic and juvenile, but hey, it's my fantasy, and if you can't play your fantasies out in PF/D&D, where can you?

Shadow Lodge

My problem comes with the fact that alignment ends up having mechanical effects, and can bar you from some choices. The fact that you can't be a lawful barbarian or a chaotic monk is stupid. I've had a discussion on this very board with a guy playing a paladin who expressed the opinion that his character should kill anyone who sets off his "Detect Evil" ability...I guess serial killers are viable paladin material now. Alignment causes far more problems than it could ever potentially solve. It's an archaic concept that never should have left the 70s.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

But..But..But. Without alignment, we don't get to enjoy all the alignment threads (flamewars) and all the paladin threads (flamewars) and all the 'Is this evil?' threads (flamewars), and all the .....

Yes, I know I'm a cheeky fellow.


Brian Bachman wrote:
Finally, I like alignments because I like being the "good guy" in my fantasy games. I like slaying the dragon and rescuing the fair maiden, just because it is the right thing to do. Our real world is full of shades of gray and morally and ethically unclear situations, and I "play" in it every day. For me, gaming is pure escapism. I don't want to wallow in the same ethical mud I deal with every day. I want to strap on my sword, hoist my holy symbol, and go open up a can of major league whup-ass on bad guys who aren't just bad, they're EVIL. It may be simplistic and juvenile, but hey, it's my fantasy, and if you can't play your fantasies out in PF/D&D, where can you?

Marry me.

But seriously, this sounds very much like why I played D&D, and why I now play PF. Or other RPGs. Though sometimes it's fun to challenge yourself on the "gray" side of things, usually it's more fun to play the hero of the people.

Shadow Lodge

Brian Bachman wrote:
Finally, I like alignments because I like being the "good guy" in my fantasy games. I like slaying the dragon and rescuing the fair maiden, just because it is the right thing to do.

And you can do all of those things without having a slot to write "good" on your character sheet.


Black Moria wrote:

But..But..But. Without alignment, we don't get to enjoy all the alignment threads (flamewars) and all the paladin threads (flamewars) and all the 'Is this evil?' threads (flamewars), and all the .....

Yes, I know I'm a cheeky fellow.

Ha! Here I was thinking about the potential positive benefits of NOT cluttering up the messageboards with alignment threads every week. I mean, how much of the server's juice are we using up on those alignment arguments, anyway?

Besides, it'd be one step closer to the end of the world, which suits my plans perfectly....MUHAHAHAHA!!!!

Scarab Sages

Just one litte thing to add:
As for the random commoner or guardsmen that the paladin detects as evil: reread detect-evil. please.


Im not sure if this is mentioned already but the way we do it in some games is that everything in the world starts at a basis of true nuetral then becomes a certain alignment based on what it is. meaning you only really have that alignment if you have the descriptor or aura. even that "evil king" is just a selfish guy with his own reasoning. probably overall neutral. i think it adds a more realistic and human approach to alignment and makes it more of a trait.


JMD031 wrote:

<long rant about about why this thread is still happening incoming>

Seriously, I take it we can't get the hint. Alignment is in the game, but nothing says you have to use it. This is the universal rule of the game, you can run it however you choose. Your players may think differently but it is more likely that you hang around people who share similar views about gaming or at the very least don't really care enough to decide. If you want to put the time and effort into making a system that doesn't use alignment, go for it. I'm guessing however, that you and most people don't want to put any effort into such an endeavor and would rather have someone else do it for you. I can usually tell these individuals by the use of the phrase "I want something 'official'". Newsflash! Paizo does not have the time and resources to cater to every individual, they have to do what is good for their company and currently that is keeping alignment in the game.

<end rant>

::puts "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" on the phonograph in the background::


Of course it wasn't a mistake.

Any time I get know/record an NPC's world view on his character info with only two letters as opposed to a long, drawn out, too-much-work waste-of-time description is a very good thing.

Please don't make NPC creation any longer than it already is, kthxbye. ;)


With regards to an earlier comment about alignments as applied to whole countries, my way of interpreting it is thus:

It is not that the alignment of a given country is meant to imply that its entire population is of that specific alignment, but more to point out that said alignment is an accurate description of the prevailing ideals that describe best how that country is governed, and how its laws (or lack thereof) are administrated.

In, say, LG Lastwall, one can expect that, generally speaking, the spirit of the law, rather then the letter, is upheld foremost by those in power, and that the laws are changed where the letter conflicts with the spirit it is meant to uphold. One can expect the prevailing ideals inherent to the enforcement of justice to be honorable and compassionate.

In say, LN Taldor, one can expect that in many cases, simply obeying the laws is more important then actually living up to the ideals they were originally created to uphold. Here the structure (partially as a result of being weighted down by such a massive bureaucracy) is more likely to be corrupt (at worst) or simply apathetic and cynical. It has not yet slipped into a state of law used for the expressed purpose of enforcing tyranny (LE) but as a whole, the system cares less about the individuals its laws effect and is simply more concerned with maintaining its status quo and continuing to perpetuate its somewhat cumbersome existence.

(Mind you, in the latter case, that is but one flavor of LN, and certainly not meant to represent all facets of the alignment, but is an apt way of describing the way in which a given kingdom may be described in such a way: it's not about 'everyone in this country is of alignment x' it's 'this alignment is the best way of roughly describing how power is used by the authority of this country, and these are the generally prevailing ideals popular there')


The mistake was leaving open to interpretation.

It needs more codes, and examples. Specific examples of moral issues.

Similar to the Palladium Alignment system...(one of the few good things from Palladium ruleswise)

In addition adding a sliding numeric system is beneficial. You can let players know they're slipping toward evil with an alignment slippage.

L9G9 is the pinnacle of

N would be a 0,0

L9N would be an inevitable...pure law

A DAEMON, NE9 pure evil

ASMODEUS L9E9

L3G3 minimum for a paladin...a justice seeking paladin might be L5G3, while a do-gooder Paladin might be L3G5.

Paladin kicked a puppy to save a kid...no penalty. Paladin kicks a puppy to attack a thug... -.1 good. Paladin kicks a puppy out of the way to attack a Balor +.25 Good!

etc etc etc

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Ion Raven wrote:

I'm just looking to see if having alignment provides anything other than

a) class conduct
b) alignment based magic

I don't want to start a flame war, but I really want to know if it actually provides anything more than those two things and fluff.

I have always first and foremost used it as a general roleplaying guide (EMPHASIS ON GENERAL). When my character is faced with a difficult decision, I recall the character's alignment and it helps guide how the character may deal with the situation. It's especially useful for NPCs as a GM, particularly coming up on the spot with them; alignment helps me remain consistent on how the NPC may deal with certain things ("Right, he's lawful, he will honor the contract he made with the NPCs if at all possible," etc. etc.).

The alignment system is neither the best nor the only way to provide such roleplaying guidance. I still find it however to be a useful one. Problems only occur when the "alignment is a guideline" and "alignment is not a straitjacket" clause from the 3.5 SRD are ignored, in my personal experience.

I also like the alignment system and its relationship to the Planes, and this is important to me in my campaign setting. I like that the Outer Planes themselves are heavily influenced by various moralities and ethoi (I think that's the plural of ethos but I'm not sure). I could wax on this but I'm afraid I'd stray rather far from the point of the post. The planes help me work with alignment in a narrative concept--your soul is aligned with the beings that live in hell, or in the heavens. A neutral evil man may radiate with the energies of Abaddon when alignment is detected, etc. etc. I like having the definitions provided in the rules as a rule of thumb to go by--else I think "No, I think making pacts with devils is a perfectly paladinly thing to do" sort of arguments would actually get worse, not eliminated, at least for the gaming groups that apparently have these kind of arguments to begin with (which sometimes I doubt. I only ever see hypothetical examples brought up, not real examples from the table).

I should note, I have had personally very few problems with alignment in the games I've played. I find, personally, it would be more trouble than it's worth to write alignment out of the system since it's so deeply embedded in the mechanics (albeit less so than in some versions of D&D.... thank god alignment languages are gone...). Again, I think the important part is to not be too strict with your interpretation and to let alignment descriptions guide you. (Again, guide guide guide.)

In fact, the only problem I have with alignment is the complete and utter wank it causes on gamer message boards, usually started by people who don't have the reading comprehension or interest to work with the guidelines as provided in the rules, or understand the definition of the word "guideline." If such wank ever penetrated to my actual games I played with my friends, I might reconsider its value, but as it hasn't, I'm happy to stick with the rules as written (and ignore the wanky threads or read them for their unintended entertainment value).


Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:

The mistake was leaving open to interpretation.

It needs more codes, and examples. Specific examples of moral issues.

Similar to the Palladium Alignment system...(one of the few good things from Palladium ruleswise)

I don't know. Maybe more examples and suggestions, but for group play I'd want each group to come to a common mind, or at least a common understanding of the world that the GM has created. Maybe it's more of an issue in society play?


DeathQuaker wrote:
the only problem I have with alignment is the complete and utter wank it causes on gamer message boards

DQ, you've just received a nomination for a coveted award.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:

The mistake was leaving open to interpretation.

It needs more codes, and examples. Specific examples of moral issues.

Similar to the Palladium Alignment system...(one of the few good things from Palladium ruleswise)

I don't know. Maybe more examples and suggestions, but for group play I'd want each group to come to a common mind, or at least a common understanding of the world that the GM has created. Maybe it's more of an issue in society play?

+1

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
the only problem I have with alignment is the complete and utter wank it causes on gamer message boards
DQ, you've just received a nomination for a coveted award.

I'm honored... I think. ;)


DeathQuaker wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
the only problem I have with alignment is the complete and utter wank it causes on gamer message boards
DQ, you've just received a nomination for a coveted award.
I'm honored... I think. ;)

Just nod and say 'thank you', darlin'!


Regarding the mention of Palladium alignment examples, I actually use those as direct examples in my games for alignemtn. Even made up a little sheet for players to reference if they want it.

Also, ditto on alignment only being a problem on the internet, never seen it happen at any game I've been at.

Then again, I'm of the mindset that MOST adventurers are either Neutral, Neutral Something, or Something Neutral. Extreme alignments are unusual and take dedication. On top of that, I put a scale on alignment, mortals go from about 1-3 in terms of how "intensely" they view and act regarding their alignment. Outsiders start at 3 and go to 5, so a LG Outsider acting at the 4 level is basically insane to a normal person. It is more lawful and good than the most lawful and good human who ever lived. Even simply communicating with something like that would be difficult, much less understanding it.

And thats where I bring in "greater good" plots. Yes, the angel will institute a "scorched earth" policy on that town, because the divinations of a prophet confirm a great evil will rise there this very day. If it had more time, it might be able to prevent it, or figure out exactly what the evil is, etc etc. But in a crunch time scenario, the angel will just nuke the town. The good people get to go to heaven anyway, and the bad people go where they belong too, all is right with the world, and evil is stymied once more! (Note: That last sentance was said in Angel-speak, before anyone starts getting their knickers in a twist at my interpretation of Good. Thats my interpretation of an Angel's interpretation of Good. Very big difference.)


The Black Bard wrote:

Regarding the mention of Palladium alignment examples, I actually use those as direct examples in my games for alignemtn. Even made up a little sheet for players to reference if they want it.

Also, ditto on alignment only being a problem on the internet, never seen it happen at any game I've been at.

Then again, I'm of the mindset that MOST adventurers are either Neutral, Neutral Something, or Something Neutral. Extreme alignments are unusual and take dedication. On top of that, I put a scale on alignment, mortals go from about 1-3 in terms of how "intensely" they view and act regarding their alignment. Outsiders start at 3 and go to 5, so a LG Outsider acting at the 4 level is basically insane to a normal person. It is more lawful and good than the most lawful and good human who ever lived. Even simply communicating with something like that would be difficult, much less understanding it.

And thats where I bring in "greater good" plots. Yes, the angel will institute a "scorched earth" policy on that town, because the divinations of a prophet confirm a great evil will rise there this very day. If it had more time, it might be able to prevent it, or figure out exactly what the evil is, etc etc. But in a crunch time scenario, the angel will just nuke the town. The good people get to go to heaven anyway, and the bad people go where they belong too, all is right with the world, and evil is stymied once more! (Note: That last sentance was said in Angel-speak, before anyone starts getting their knickers in a twist at my interpretation of Good. Thats my interpretation of an Angel's interpretation of Good. Very big difference.)

So, it an insane (L5 by yours L9 by ) lawful society would kill any Starship Captain that violates the Prime Directive...

I agree that Outsiders are outsiders BECAUSE their mindset is sooooo alien to mortals...

Crazy people would be C6 or 7.


Only time I've ever seen that be an issue (past my gaming group in middle school a long time ago, where everything was an issue) was with a group at the FLGS where no one really knew each other. We had one of those 'let me play that for you' people DMing. After watching him do that to a couple of people I just scheduled myself out after two sessions. It's never been a problem with alignment, in my experience, but with player personalities.


Alignments are awesome. Same goes for paladins, wyverns and mimics.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Quote:
Crazy people would be C6 or 7.

Chaos is not 'being insane'. Insanity is Wisdom damage.


I'm a huge fan of proper alignment. Your tires wear less, your gas mileage improves, and the overall safety of your automobile is increased.

Wait. What alignment are we talking about?


Yeah, I can definitely see it as being more of an issue in society play, now.

;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I'm a huge fan of proper alignment. Your tires wear less, your gas mileage improves, and the overall safety of your automobile is increased.

Wait. What alignment are we talking about?

Astrological.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I'm a huge fan of proper alignment. Your tires wear less, your gas mileage improves, and the overall safety of your automobile is increased.

Wait. What alignment are we talking about?

Astrological.

Now it makes sense. Well, in that case, I'm annoyed that my zodiac sign always seems crooked when I stare at the sky at night. Can someone tilt Leo back to its proper leaping configuration? Last time I saw it, it looked like the Lion was diving face-first into the nearest hill.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Wait. What alignment are we talking about?
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Astrological.

Okay, now that's a cool idea. Everybody born under a certain planar / astrological alignment is far more likely to be Chaotic Good. Under this other alignment, infants are most likely to be Neutral Evil.

It gives some teeth to the "kill all the babies born in that month" trope.

Liberty's Edge

My view on Alignment? Write it on your sheet if you like, my game won't use it for anything.

What I Do Instead:
I personally prefer having players write down a minimum of 2 morality choices (and preferably one quirk) of their character that are not considered normal (in other words "Won't stab children in their sleep" doesn't work unless you also write "habitually stabs people in their sleep"). I expect people to role-play these.

Many people I play with do this anyway, though they don't write it down. There was once a wizard who valued the written word more than life, and refused to use most offensive spells when in a library. A druid in my current game dislikes miners because his home-town was destroyed by over-zealous miners. The barbarian constantly suggests looting the treasury for money to buy gear (Kingmaker game), though the player knows it would be a bad idea.

I had a character whose morality was "Never give up. Ever. You're a coward if you do." and "Stealing and property damage are perfectly fine if the result is for the greater good."
So though they wouldn't steal often, they would steal items from people who used them for unscrupulous purposes. Sometimes he used them, sometimes he broke them, and once he just hid it from the person he stole it from (artifacts are hard to break). In the last case it wasn't really a bad person, there were just two party members about to kill each-other over it. 45 sleight of hand and the problem is solved. Thankfully a good bluff made them believe that they *hadn't* stolen it.


Was including it in the base system a mistake, though? No, I don't believe it was. It would be nice to have pre-written rules to run without it, but most people do like having it there; The core rulebook should be written for the majority, not the minority.


As long as that month is January. Hate that month.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I'm a huge fan of proper alignment. Your tires wear less, your gas mileage improves, and the overall safety of your automobile is increased.

Wait. What alignment are we talking about?

Your mom.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Was it a mistake for Paizo to keep alignment? No. They wanted to progress the game and stay true to its roots. Alignment, and the smiting of evil beings from other planes, is a large part of the heritage of the game.

Do you need to keep alignment in your game? No, absolutely not. Take a look at Arcana Evolved to see what the game can look like without alignment. Adopt it as a house rule as you wish.

So, role-playing games don't need alignment, but Pathfinder RPG does. But don't let me interrupt a long debate if you are enjoying it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Champion, ArnesonianNarrativism wrote:
JMD031 wrote:

<long rant about about why this thread is still happening incoming>

Seriously, I take it we can't get the hint. Alignment is in the game, but nothing says you have to use it. This is the universal rule of the game, you can run it however you choose. Your players may think differently but it is more likely that you hang around people who share similar views about gaming or at the very least don't really care enough to decide. If you want to put the time and effort into making a system that doesn't use alignment, go for it. I'm guessing however, that you and most people don't want to put any effort into such an endeavor and would rather have someone else do it for you. I can usually tell these individuals by the use of the phrase "I want something 'official'". Newsflash! Paizo does not have the time and resources to cater to every individual, they have to do what is good for their company and currently that is keeping alignment in the game.

<end rant>

::puts "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" on the phonograph in the background::

I'm making this my official background music here on the forums. Assume that anytime I post, this is playing.

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

Alignment is the fundamental concrete upon which the world is based.

From a Player standpoint, you are of course dependent upon the DM to interpret things.

From a character standpoint, your PC's live in a world where Good is Absolute, Evil is tangible and real, and what you do in life directly and certain as gravity affects where your soul goes.

===Aelryinth

Really?

_MY_ characters in _my_ game?

I think not.


I believe this is a DM or GM optional trait for characters. I dont even use Alignment in my games, if the characters are good I keep them within certain boundaries, if they go overboard there are conseqences.


I <3 Alignment.


Seeing as the only alignment arguements I have had are with you random pixels on the interwebs, I can't say that alignments are a bad thing.

My group all grew up in the same area, and thus we are all pretty close together on how we view the different alignments. Hell, I generally agree with most of the people here on alignments. Most of the disagreements are on little things that I nitpick because I am bored at work.

I play D&D/Pathfinder when I want the play a game about epic battles between good and evil. Without alignments, it just isn't D&D.

If I want a game where the morality of my actions doesn't matter, I go play shadowrun. That is a setting where having no alignments makes a lot more sense.


Lathiira wrote:
Black Moria wrote:

But..But..But. Without alignment, we don't get to enjoy all the alignment threads (flamewars) and all the paladin threads (flamewars) and all the 'Is this evil?' threads (flamewars), and all the .....

Yes, I know I'm a cheeky fellow.

Ha! Here I was thinking about the potential positive benefits of NOT cluttering up the messageboards with alignment threads every week. I mean, how much of the server's juice are we using up on those alignment arguments, anyway?

Besides, it'd be one step closer to the end of the world, which suits my plans perfectly....MUHAHAHAHA!!!!

Meh, people would just find something else to flame about. That is how the interwebs work.


Chris Mortika wrote:


Okay, now that's a cool idea. Everybody born under a certain planar / astrological alignment is far more likely to be Chaotic Good. Under this other alignment, infants are most likely to be Neutral Evil.

Finally! A use for the d12!

Seriously, remember halfway through the first page of this thread when the OP said "Thank you, I get it now" and we settled the question civilly? No? Nobody remembers that?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:


Okay, now that's a cool idea. Everybody born under a certain planar / astrological alignment is far more likely to be Chaotic Good. Under this other alignment, infants are most likely to be Neutral Evil.

Finally! A use for the d12!

Seriously, remember halfway through the first page of this thread when the OP said "Thank you" and we settled the question civilly? No? Nobody remembers that?

I do, but nobody likes to listen to reasonable people.


JMD031 wrote:
I do, but nobody likes to listen to reasonable people.

JMD031, now it is my turn. Thank you. I get it now. :)


Yeah, I like the happy ending, even if it didn't end. How many alignment threads right now seem like they will never end? I wonder though if we made the connection between the mechanical aspects and the role-playing (so-called "fluff") side of alignment for the OP. I mean, I don't feel like doing it now, but I throw it out there for someone feeling less lazy.


Keeping alignment was definitely not a mistake. I for one much prefer every line of text starting the same distance from the left side of the page. Exceptions of course for indentation of new paragraphs, drop caps, and flowing text around artwork (which I prefer box bordered to maintain some measure of alignment).

<Looks at everyone who is staring at me.>

We are talking about page layout here, right?

Sczarni

JMD031 wrote:

*walks into thread*

*casts flame shield*

Why does this thread exist?

<long winded post about why this thread is stupid and I shouldn't have to read such garbage>

*leaves thread*

wow i thought you left the thread, what are you doing back here if it is such a stupid thread?

honestly though, i accept the idea of alignments in the game and that pathfinder needed it but i hat it, i hate having to explain how what i just did in game was within my alignment and how easy it is to fall to evil but hard to stay good. i am fine with some of the classes having a code of conduct that they are not allowed to break and if they do they lose their class abilities. i would totally prefer an honer system that is based on what other people see you do so the stealthy backstabbers are not automatically bad guys and i would prefer good and evil being an element of celestial and abyssal creatures.


northbrb wrote:
honestly though, i accept the idea of alignments in the game and that pathfinder needed it but i hat it, i hate having to explain how what i just did in game was within my alignment and how easy it is to fall to evil but hard to stay good. i am fine with some of the classes having a code of conduct that they are not allowed to break and if they do they lose their class abilities. i would totally prefer an honer system that is based on what other people see you do so the stealthy backstabbers are not automatically bad guys and i would prefer good and evil being an element of celestial and abyssal creatures.

I kinda think that if you find it is hard to be good and easy to be evil, it's probably because you want to play an evil character...Just sayin'.

Also, why would a stealthy character just waiting to stab his friends in the back ever be good...ever? They might THINK he's good for a while, but in reality he'd be evil. And, the rules already account for that.

Sczarni

i am just sayin that i would prefer a system that was based on how others perceive you more than based on what you actually are.


Charender wrote:
Seeing as the only alignment arguements I have had are with you random pixels on the interwebs, I can't say that alignments are a bad thing.

Who you callin a pixel, bub?


northbrb wrote:
i am just sayin that i would prefer a system that was based on how others perceive you more than based on what you actually are.

Is morality in your games then more of a matter of how others see your actions, rather then of the rightness or wrongness of the actions themselves?

Sczarni

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
northbrb wrote:
i am just sayin that i would prefer a system that was based on how others perceive you more than based on what you actually are.

Is morality in your games then more of a matter of how others see your actions, rather then of the rightness or wrongness of the actions themselves?

i would like it to be but no we use the alignment system as is

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