Is it possible to play a Paladin of Calistria or Pharasma? I guess the short answer is “yes” in a home campaign. But would it be allowed in a PFS game and what are the issues (alignment wise and other) for this particular build?
Thanks,
Ed
Creative Director
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Is it possible to play a Paladin of Calistria or Pharasma? I guess the short answer is “yes” in a home campaign. But would it be allowed in a PFS game and what are the issues (alignment wise and other) for this particular build?
Thanks,
Ed
No, not really.
A paladin has to be lawful, and that means that he really SHOULD not only adhere to the rules of any major organization he joins, but should exemplify those rules as a paragon of what those rules represent.
A worshiper of Calistria who exemplifies her teaching will be doing chaotic neutral acts all the time. Likewise, a worshiper of Pharasma will be doing neutral acts all the time. Those acts will eventually cause an alignment shift toward one of those alignments—they won't necessarily cause a TOTAL shift, but it only needs a single shift from, say, LG to NG or LN to make a paladin not be a paladin.
As a result, a paladin can pretty much only worship LG gods or NG or LN gods, since he can skew toward the good aspect of a NG deity or the lawful aspect of a LN deity without jeopardizing his own LG alignment.
If you want to play a "holy warrior" of a non LG, NG, or LN deity like Calistria or Pharasma, you should probably play a cleric or a cleric/fighter or maybe a cleric/rogue. And that doesn't mean even levels—you can take only a couple of fighter levels and then focus on the cleric levels. Alternatively, an inquisitor might be a good choice.
If you want to play a "holy warrior" of a non LG, NG, or LN deity like Calistria or Pharasma, you should probably play a cleric or a cleric/fighter or maybe a cleric/rogue. And that doesn't mean even levels—you can take only a couple of fighter levels and then focus on the cleric levels. Alternatively, an inquisitor might be a good choice.
Order of the Star cavaliers make good alternatives for non-LGish deities too.
If you want to play a "holy warrior" of a non LG, NG, or LN deity like Calistria or Pharasma, you should probably play a cleric or a cleric/fighter or maybe a cleric/rogue. And that doesn't mean even levels—you can take only a couple of fighter levels and then focus on the cleric levels. Alternatively, an inquisitor might be a good choice.
Ah - ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I may do a Fighter/Cleric set up then.
And on a wide tangent - thanks again for a great game during PaizoCon. (I was “Bob” – the Lizard Wizard riding on the “Mr. Tasty” ice cream truck!)
Ed
Order of the Star cavaliers make good alternatives for non-LGish deities too.
I'll check out the APG - thanks for the tip!
Ed
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Creative Director
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If you want to play a "holy warrior" of a non LG, NG, or LN deity like Calistria or Pharasma, you should probably play a cleric or a cleric/fighter or maybe a cleric/rogue. And that doesn't mean even levels—you can take only a couple of fighter levels and then focus on the cleric levels. Alternatively, an inquisitor might be a good choice.Ah - ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I may do a Fighter/Cleric set up then.
And on a wide tangent - thanks again for a great game during PaizoCon. (I was “Bob” – the Lizard Wizard riding on the “Mr. Tasty” ice cream truck!)
Ed
HA! Mr. Tasty! Awesome! Good times. :-)
What neutral acts would a Paladin of Pharasma be doing anyway? Even though the goddess herself is Neutral, her clerics generally destroy undead, respect those whom have passed away, and become midwives. None of which is chaotic or evil and actually seems to lean towards lawful and good.
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What neutral acts would a Paladin of Pharasma be doing anyway?
I'm curious as to what a neutral act would be in the first place. Just kinda hanging around and not bothering anyone? I suppose you could say that they "restore balance" to situations where one extreme alignment has taken sway, but that's not so much a neutral act as an act of the opposite alignment.
IMC, I run clerics of Pharasma as mysterious. Which can be awfully neutral at times...
A Paladin can, like a Cleric, be dedicated to and ideal rather than a Deity, however such Paladins, I believe, are rare in Golarion. Such a Paladin could venerate Pharasma for her view of undead, however a Paladin would value innocent life more than a cleric of Pharasma. Likewise, a Paladin could admire the martial prowess of Gorum, but a Paladin would have a greater respect for diplomacy and politics than a typical Gorumite.
I can't see any parts of Calistra's portfolio that a Paladin would vereate, though.
I also don't think that a Paladin dedicated to a Lawful Good ideal could worship a Chaotic or Evil God exclusively.
Is it possible to play a Paladin of Calistria or Pharasma? I guess the short answer is “yes” in a home campaign. But would it be allowed in a PFS game and what are the issues (alignment wise and other) for this particular build?
Thanks,
Ed
No, only LG, LN, and NG Aligned God/Goddess.
If there is any normal Code, restriction, or rule that a LN, NG deity has that would prevent the player from being LG... Then NO, for those gods as well.
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The answer is, depends on the DM, even in society games, there is no official rule and where one table might let you run it, another will have you automatically fall.
If you're okay with that then you can have a paladin of whatever god you like. but if you want a character you know for certain can go from table to table you want to follow the unofficial one step rule Mr. Jacobs has advocated. (Personally I disagree with it, I think you can be any alignment and fanatically worship a god even if you get the message completely wrong but that's as I said, it will vary from table to table in society games.)
by the rules, there's absolutely no alignment restrictions on gods or requirements in society games that I know of.
take the birthmark trait to any character for a holy warrior......
the paladin is just a holier than thou warrior
The answer is, depends on the DM, even in society games, there is no official rule and where one table might let you run it, another will have you automatically fall.
If you're okay with that then you can have a paladin of whatever god you like. but if you want a character you know for certain can go from table to table you want to follow the unofficial one step rule Mr. Jacobs has advocated. (Personally I disagree with it, I think you can be any alignment and fanatically worship a god even if you get the message completely wrong but that's as I said, it will vary from table to table in society games.)
by the rules, there's absolutely no alignment restrictions on gods or requirements in society games that I know of.
Cowboys and Indians... If you want a Non-Offical, not by the rule game. Yes paladin can be of any alignment, even LN or LE if that is what you want in your homemade game.
By the rules, Paladins are required to be Lawful Good.
Now on to the gods =
Cowboys and Indians... If you want a Non-Offical, not by the rule game. Yes gods can be of any alignment, even LN or LE if that is what you want in your homemade game.
By the rules, Gods/Goddess are given alignment for a reason. I as a player or Gm would expect those gods/goddess to follow their alignment with in the game. Just the same as i would expect from any individual character, individual creature, or individual monster.
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The answer is, depends on the DM, even in society games, there is no official rule and where one table might let you run it, another will have you automatically fall.
If you're okay with that then you can have a paladin of whatever god you like. but if you want a character you know for certain can go from table to table you want to follow the unofficial one step rule Mr. Jacobs has advocated. (Personally I disagree with it, I think you can be any alignment and fanatically worship a god even if you get the message completely wrong but that's as I said, it will vary from table to table in society games.)
by the rules, there's absolutely no alignment restrictions on gods or requirements in society games that I know of.
Cowboys and Indians... If you want a Non-Offical, not by the rule game. Yes paladin can be of any alignment, even LN or LE if that is what you want in your homemade game.
By the rules, Paladins are required to be Lawful Good.
Now on to the gods =
Cowboys and Indians... If you want a Non-Offical, not by the rule game. Yes gods can be of any alignment, even LN or LE if that is what you want in your homemade game.
By the rules, Gods/Goddess are given alignment for a reason. I as a player or Gm would expect those gods/goddess to follow their alignment with in the game. Just the same as i would expect from any individual character, individual creature, or individual monster.
Um nooooo I didn't say paladin could be any alignment, I said the god could be. And by the rules the paladins gods don't have an alignment restriction. BY THE RULES AS WRITTEN a paladin of calistra is allowed, a paladin of gorum is allowed, a paladin of ROVAGUG, is allowed. Now your personal opinion of the matter is that the one step rule should be applied. My rules are that if you want a paladin who isn't within one step you'd better have a daaaaaang good explanation as to why you worship, how your getting powers, etc. and MAYBE i'll allow it. He asked for society rules. I gave him the society answer.
I can't remember what book I was reading but I was running the CoT AP at the time so it probably was in the AP book or maybe the that book on Devils and Hell. Basically it said Asmodeus has Paladins that follow him purely on the Lawful aspect of his religion and he does grant them powers. These are rare but do happen. If only I could remember where I read that.
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I can't remember what book I was reading but I was running the CoT AP at the time so it probably was in the AP book or maybe the that book on Devils and Hell. Basically it said Asmodeus has Paladins that follow him purely on the Lawful aspect of his religion and he does grant them powers. These are rare but do happen. If only I could remember where I read that.
Yeah we hashed that out in another thread, best not to dredge the same argument up here. Basically the eight other 15 page paladin of non-standard alignment gods threads have all wound up boiling down to the same thing.
In society games you can make a paladin of calistra/pharasma, and you'll likely be able to play it at some tables whereas other tables will have you fall from the very beginning of the module until you go to another table where you may/may not have the same thing happen.
If you want a character you can for sure take from table to table, make a paladin following the . If you're okay with potentially playing a fallen paladin for a couple of levels at some tables then you're free to make a paladin of whatever god you can justify.
The answer is, depends on the DM, even in society games, there is no official rule and where one table might let you run it, another will have you automatically fall.
Actually, there are rules in Society play about this. A character that needs to worship a deity can only deviate from that deity's alignment by one step.
In a home campaign I would allow a player to have a paladin of Pharasma. The church of Pharasma has many ideals a paladin could support. I would demand a back ground story for such an unusual request to justify the choice.
Doug
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The answer is, depends on the DM, even in society games, there is no official rule and where one table might let you run it, another will have you automatically fall.Actually, there are rules in Society play about this. A character that needs to worship a deity can only deviate from that deity's alignment by one step.
oh can you point out that rule to me, I hadn't seen it previously. I just did a quick double check by reading through the latest version of the guide to organized play and saw no rule of the sort, the closest I saw was that you had to obey all alignment restriction of the classes, but since the paladin doesn't have such a restriction, that rule doesn't apply, a paladin has to be LG but nothing I can find says his god does. If you can quote the rule and tell me where to find it, I'd really appreciate it.
I like that idea of a paladin of Pharasma, but then I'm partial to death goddesses;)
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Creative Director
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What neutral acts would a Paladin of Pharasma be doing anyway? Even though the goddess herself is Neutral, her clerics generally destroy undead, respect those whom have passed away, and become midwives. None of which is chaotic or evil and actually seems to lean towards lawful and good.
Letting people die, for one thing, when they could be saved. Remember, she's also a goddess of death—if someone gets poisoned or is bleeding to death, a worshiper of Pharasma is likely to just let that person die if they don't have a greater destiny to still fufill—aka... most non PCs.
Threads like this makes me wonder James, will you be making what gods have paladins or including something like a one step rule for paladins in the New Golarion setting book?
What neutral acts would a Paladin of Pharasma be doing anyway? Even though the goddess herself is Neutral, her clerics generally destroy undead, respect those whom have passed away, and become midwives. None of which is chaotic or evil and actually seems to lean towards lawful and good.Letting people die, for one thing, when they could be saved. Remember, she's also a goddess of death—if someone gets poisoned or is bleeding to death, a worshiper of Pharasma is likely to just let that person die if they don't have a greater destiny to still fufill—aka... most non PCs.
I have this idea for a cleric of Pharasma with Healing and Death as her domains: "No one dies until I say they do. But when that happens..."
I have this idea for a cleric of Pharasma with Healing and Death as her domains: "No one dies until I say they do. But when that happens..."
The issues I see with this being, your playing god. Something your god would not like I think.
I have this idea for a cleric of Pharasma with Healing and Death as her domains: "No one dies until I say they do. But when that happens..."What neutral acts would a Paladin of Pharasma be doing anyway? Even though the goddess herself is Neutral, her clerics generally destroy undead, respect those whom have passed away, and become midwives. None of which is chaotic or evil and actually seems to lean towards lawful and good.Letting people die, for one thing, when they could be saved. Remember, she's also a goddess of death—if someone gets poisoned or is bleeding to death, a worshiper of Pharasma is likely to just let that person die if they don't have a greater destiny to still fufill—aka... most non PCs.
I do this in our homebrew, except with the caveat "If you die and it is not your fate to die this day, I will deal with it. But if it is your fate, then so be it." Seems to keep the halfling from getting killed all the time....
oh can you point out that rule to me, I hadn't seen it previously. I just did a quick double check by reading through the latest version of the guide to organized play and saw no rule of the sort, the closest I saw was that you had to obey all alignment restriction of the classes, but since the paladin doesn't have such a restriction, that rule doesn't apply, a paladin has to be LG but nothing I can find says his god does. If you can quote the rule and tell me where to find it, I'd really appreciate it.
The basic text is found on page 16 of the guide:
You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god’s alignment.
This doesn't eliminate one's ability to play a paladin that serves an ideal, but if the paladin serves a deity, that deity's alignment needs to be within one step of LG.
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oh can you point out that rule to me, I hadn't seen it previously. I just did a quick double check by reading through the latest version of the guide to organized play and saw no rule of the sort, the closest I saw was that you had to obey all alignment restriction of the classes, but since the paladin doesn't have such a restriction, that rule doesn't apply, a paladin has to be LG but nothing I can find says his god does. If you can quote the rule and tell me where to find it, I'd really appreciate it.The basic text is found on page 16 of the guide:
You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god’s alignment.
This doesn't eliminate one's ability to play a paladin that serves an ideal, but if the paladin serves a deity, that deity's alignment needs to be within one step of LG.
Here's what's funny, by the way that's written, a fighter that chooses to worship pharasma can't be lawful good.
oh can you point out that rule to me, I hadn't seen it previously. I just did a quick double check by reading through the latest version of the guide to organized play and saw no rule of the sort, the closest I saw was that you had to obey all alignment restriction of the classes, but since the paladin doesn't have such a restriction, that rule doesn't apply, a paladin has to be LG but nothing I can find says his god does. If you can quote the rule and tell me where to find it, I'd really appreciate it.The basic text is found on page 16 of the guide:
You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god’s alignment.
This doesn't eliminate one's ability to play a paladin that serves an ideal, but if the paladin serves a deity, that deity's alignment needs to be within one step of LG.
Which guide ??
As has been stated several times on the Society boards, there is an update to the Guide that's coming that clarifies that text applies to clerics and clerics only. Paladins are handled exactly how James Jacobs has noted them being handled above.
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As has been stated several times on the Society boards, there is an update to the Guide that's coming that clarifies that text applies to clerics and clerics only. Paladins are handled exactly how James Jacobs has noted them being handled above.
So it's going to be officially spelled out that paladins follow the one step rule, well that's good for settling the debates then, even if (IMO) it's bad for the game in general.
You're blending topics here. Are you talking about how it will be handled in Pathfinder Society or how it will be handled in the upcoming campaign setting revision?
If the former, yes.
If the latter, I haven't read it and therefore don't know.
Honestly I think it should be spelled out. To me its common sense that if you really worship a god you need to be with in one step of his/her's AL or your not really following his/her's edicts
Some folks however need it spelled out it in massively bold letters or they don't believe it.
The issues I see with this being, your playing god. Something your god would not like I think.
I have this idea for a cleric of Pharasma with Healing and Death as her domains: "No one dies until I say they do. But when that happens..."
Why wouldn't she like it? If there is any god more likely to produce hubris in her priesthood, I can't imagine who it would be...
To me its about tone. Your cleric is not the master of life and death, he is the servant of she who oversees it. If you had said "Pharasma has deemed you shall not die this day" then I see no issue, but to me once a character decides they are the masters of life and death they have forgotten who they really serve and Pharasma should remind them.