The biggest thing I liked better about 3.5 is cantrips. It just bugs me they are unlimited now. I know it is a minor thing but it just bugs me.Oh yes, this too.
+ me too.
I'll probably revert to 3.5 for cantrips in any game I run, or alternatively use a book with some alternative cantrip rules if I can find any I like :)
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
|
When I wax nostalgic, I tend to go further back than 3.5, to the hoary days of AD&D or 2nd Edition. That said, I think overall PF is an improvement and natural evolution of 3.5, and strongly approve of most changes.
My only caution is of a general nature. PF did continue what I see as a continuing power creep throughout the entire evolution of the game. PCs have gradually, and sometimes not so gradually, become more powerful with each new edition, necessitating an increase in the power of their opponents to provide the same level of challenge. It has reached the point where many posters here credibly describe the upper levels of PF as more of a superheroes game than a classic heroic fantasy game. I'm fine with this, but I wouldn't want to see the power inflation continue forever. If anything, I would be more interested in a power down. I'm probably swimming against the tide here, as I'm sure the reason the inflation occurs is the heavy demand for more powerful/cooler characters from players, and the fact they snap up products that will make their characters more powerful. I don't think I'm alone in wanting to stop at some point before 1st level characters are able to one-shot Thor.
Dude, I totally agree with you. The power creep is real and it's not a good thing. Wish there was a way to keep it in check.
Dude, I totally agree with you. The power creep is real and it's not a good thing. Wish there was a way to keep it in check.
Also agree. PC's continue to power up, same with monsters (though not as much) and it all basically results in more work for the GM.
I miss the variety of prestige classes, but I support the idea that they should not be mechanically superior to base classes, just different.
That's an interesting point. I would say that I find the average PFRPG prestige class less useful than the average 3.5 prestige class, so far. They're often very specific (e.g. a prestige class only multiclassed oracle/barbarians can take).
|
|
I actually run all my cantrips and orisons in reverse. You get X cantrips/orisons per day (based on your level allowed), but you can select any spell from your appropriate 0-level list. That way casters can get any minor utility spell they need a few times a day, but cannot spam flows of water.
As far as 3.5, I think that it was already a bad take on 3.0, which in turn was a bad take on 2nd ed. The shift in PFRPG to slightly nerf 3.5 spells (reducing SoDs, rope trick) is one way to scale back caster power, so no I don't miss 3.5
Overall I agree that the scale and power available to all classes has increased over each edition/incarnation.
On the subject of Improved Grab, is there any reason creatures get this instead of Improved Grapple?
So many creatures out there, who, by rights should act by grabbing and constricting, but can't, because they have to break the defender's full AC first.
You do realize that a creature with grab gets +4 on its CMB to start or maintain a grapple? There's no reason you couldn't have it just attempt a grapple and take advantage of that +4 bonus. A Medium giant constrictor snake could bite a Small dog (+5 attack vs. AC 13) with no AOO and get a free grapple attempt, or it could skip the bite and just try to grapple (+9 CMB vs. CMD 11)... sure, it faces an AOO from the dog if it does so, but odds are the dog isn't going to hit (+2 bite vs. AC 15) and even if it did, the damage (1d4+1) isn't likely to negate the maneuver. And the odds are even more in the snake's favor if it goes after two-sizes-smaller prey... not only is the target's CMD penalized even more by its size, its damage is likely to be less, and thus less of a chance to negate the grapple attempt... and if the snake goes with bite-then-free-grab rather than just start-a-grapple, its bite damage could easily kill its prey before the grapple roll is an issue.
The game is about choices. Some are better than others. Some are better under some circumstances but not others. Creatures with grab have another option available to them; sometimes it's a good option, sometimes it isn't, but the fact that it's an option at all means they're better off with it.
The biggest thing I liked better about 3.5 is cantrips. It just bugs me they are unlimited now. I know it is a minor thing but it just bugs me.Oh yes, this too.+ me too.
I'll probably revert to 3.5 for cantrips in any game I run, or alternatively use a book with some alternative cantrip rules if I can find any I like :)
I've resorted to 3 + Stat mod per day for all classes that can use o-level spells. It's a nice happy medium between the 3.5 and PF versions.
To make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying classes can cast any cantrip they normally could, EACH, 3 + Stat mod times per day.
So if I had an 18 Int and knew message, mage hand, and ray of frost, I could cast each of them 7 times per day.
Seems fair to me. More uses without getting into infinite land.
Call me crazy, I've yet to see, encounter, or even imagine any issues with infinite cantrips/orizons.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Dude, I totally agree with you. The power creep is real and it's not a good thing. Wish there was a way to keep it in check.
I think it's a sales feature. The change-over from 3rd Edition to 3.5 certainly used it as a selling point. Not so much "we've fixed rhino-hide armor!" so much as "Look at all the kewl things your barbarian PC can do in this new edition."
I've run a few Pathfinder modules for beginning characters under the 3.5 rules, and the encounters are just lethal.
|
|
The biggest thing I liked better about 3.5 is cantrips. It just bugs me they are unlimited now. I know it is a minor thing but it just bugs me.Oh yes, this too.+ me too.
I'll probably revert to 3.5 for cantrips in any game I run, or alternatively use a book with some alternative cantrip rules if I can find any I like :)
** spoiler omitted **
We ended up doing something similar though we still need to playtest our fix.
It has reached the point where many posters here credibly describe the upper levels of PF as more of a superheroes game than a classic heroic fantasy game. I'm fine with this, but I wouldn't want to see the power inflation continue forever. If anything, I would be more interested in a power down.
It may be just me, but PF *does* seem like a power-down to me. Not a small one, either.
Granted, the classes that weren't very good in 3.5 did generally get brought up, but the top end classes generally got brought down.
The people I played 3.0/3.5 with mostly were at least part-time organized play players, and it's possible I have a different skew on 3rd edition than a lot of people here, but it really did get to a point with those players where basically every character was wizard/druid/cleric, not because they're all inherently powergamers, but because, in a team game it's fun to be able to contribute, and if anyone at a high-end-skill-ish player is going to play one of those classes in 3.0/3.5, they can't help but overshadow the hell out of everyone who doesn't.
So, I don't know. The level 20 PF fighter is surely a lot tougher than the level 20 3.5 fighter, but I'd strongly argue that the latter is a trap, a build so bad that all but the greenest players know to avoid it. (A 3.5 melee character would by necessity be a mutt of a few levels of many different classes, and even that character would pale before a pure caster at any but the very lowest levels.) Conversely, even with some new perks, the PF druid does not hold a candle to the power of the 3.5 druid -- the gap in power is so immense it's almost hard to describe in words without seeming to descend into hyperbole.
It's easy to miss in a casual reading of PF that almost all of the strongest spells in 3.5 were hit with the nerf stick. Generally this is a really good change and drastically brings down the power level of high-end characters, even if it did produce some odd inconsistencies. (e.g., all of the various nerfs to Forcecage make sense to me, and 3.5 Forcecage was too game-breaking, but now it doesn't seem near powerful enough to be a 7th level spell anymore.)
|
Call me crazy, I've yet to see, encounter, or even imagine any issues with infinite cantrips/orizons.
I wanted to have the party cross a desert and felt the free water cleric orizon was a bit much. I was told by either someone on a forum or one of my players that the answer was to attack them with a blue dragon.
I guess you can mark me down for also preferring the 3.5 cantrips being limited.
|
|
Not exactly. the top-down mandate was that unlike 3.5, this time core races weren't going to suck, going single class wasn't going to suck. And I think that the APG was the crown jewel in that achievement. You now have a selection of racial abilities tuned to the classes you play (Elven magic wasn't really that useful for a ranger)
To clarify, that is not my dislike. I am referring to the top-down mandate from the developers and designers that monstrous/non-standard races should be mechanically inferior and dissuaded from use, FYIW.
This
Call me crazy, I've yet to see, encounter, or even imagine any issues with infinite cantrips/orizons.I wanted to have the party cross a desert and felt the free water cleric orizon was a bit much. I was told by either someone on a forum or one of my players that the answer was to attack them with a blue dragon.
I guess you can mark me down for also preferring the 3.5 cantrips being limited.
Eh, that would've happened even with limited cantrips.
By level 4 you create 8 gallons of water and can do it 5 times a day. Even at level 2 you have 3 castings of 4 gallons, which would be plenty. Keep in mind that the standard amount of water needed, at least in the military, by a hard working person is 2 quarts in the day per hour and one quart at night.
Assuming you're traveling at night, that's an easy four hours of hard work for the standard four person party with each spell. That gives you enough water to cover 12 hours of hard work, and even that is under the assumption that "walking" is a part of "hard work."
Halflings - Gypsies > Generic hobbits
Half-Orc stat modifiers - +2 int on half-orcs is just wrong to me
Bardic performance duration - Been mentioned
Duelist's precise strike being rolled damage instead of static - I know the current version is more powerful, but I feel as if they should have beefed it up to 3d6 instead
Ray of Enfeeblement, Dispel Magic and Forcecage - Might have been too powerful, but they're too lousy now
The Monster Manual portrait of the Nymph - Hubbah hubbah
And the fact that most monsters didn't get an increase in power relative to that of player characters.
All in all though, I vastly prefer Pathfinder.
|
|
Call me crazy, I've yet to see, encounter, or even imagine any issues with infinite cantrips/orizons.I wanted to have the party cross a desert and felt the free water cleric orizon was a bit much. I was told by either someone on a forum or one of my players that the answer was to attack them with a blue dragon.
I guess you can mark me down for also preferring the 3.5 cantrips being limited.
Eh, that would've happened even with limited cantrips.
By level 4 you create 8 gallons of water and can do it 5 times a day. Even at level 2 you have 3 castings of 4 gallons, which would be plenty. Keep in mind that the standard amount of water needed, at least in the military, by a hard working person is 2 quarts in the day per hour and one quart at night.
Assuming you're traveling at night, that's an easy four hours of hard work for the standard four person party with each spell. That gives you enough water to cover 12 hours of hard work, and even that is under the assumption that "walking" is a part of "hard work."
Point taken. I just thought the the "attack them with a blue dragon" advice was too funny not to share. What you have said here was more what I was expecting.
Point taken. I just thought the the "attack them with a blue dragon" advice was too funny not to share. What you have said here was more what I was expecting.Call me crazy, I've yet to see, encounter, or even imagine any issues with infinite cantrips/orizons.I wanted to have the party cross a desert and felt the free water cleric orizon was a bit much. I was told by either someone on a forum or one of my players that the answer was to attack them with a blue dragon.
I guess you can mark me down for also preferring the 3.5 cantrips being limited.
Eh, that would've happened even with limited cantrips.
By level 4 you create 8 gallons of water and can do it 5 times a day. Even at level 2 you have 3 castings of 4 gallons, which would be plenty. Keep in mind that the standard amount of water needed, at least in the military, by a hard working person is 2 quarts in the day per hour and one quart at night.
Assuming you're traveling at night, that's an easy four hours of hard work for the standard four person party with each spell. That gives you enough water to cover 12 hours of hard work, and even that is under the assumption that "walking" is a part of "hard work."
Well, there's not a WHOLE lot of desert specific enemies.
And the blue dragon is always ignored :<. Everyone only cares about it's big red brother.
That said, I still prefer my encounter where the party has to escape a copper dragon who had tried to imprison them specifically so it had someone to talk to. And then after escaping he'd regularly send them obscenely long letters wherein he babbled about things of little to no importance, just because he loved talking.
|
On the subject of Improved Grab, is there any reason creatures get this instead of Improved Grapple?
So many creatures out there, who, by rights should act by grabbing and constricting, but can't, because they have to break the defender's full AC first.
You do realize that a creature with grab gets +4 on its CMB to start or maintain a grapple? There's no reason you couldn't have it just attempt a grapple and take advantage of that +4 bonus.
(Disclaimer: I'm running 3.5 with occasional PF elements ported in. This was prompted by a fight with some ochre jellies.)
Ah; didn't know about the +4 bonus.
I also thought that any damage from the AoO still prevented the grapple attempt.
The question remains though. Some creatures would seem to work more intuitively, if they had improved grapple, rather than improved grab.
The former implies they make touch attacks to envelop the enemy, then crush or dissolve them at their leisure.
The latter requires them to get their tentacle through armor, natural armor, and shield, to cause actual damage, before attempting to grapple, which seems an unnecessary pre-requisite.
In the encounter I ran, the oozes all needed natural 20s to score wounding hits, so there was only one (failed) attempt at a grab. If they'd had Improved Grapple, they could have acted as I picture them in my mind, flowing into the room and globbling all over.
|
|
Eh, that would've happened even with limited cantrips.
By level 4 you create 8 gallons of water and can do it 5 times a day. Even at level 2 you have 3 castings of 4 gallons, which would be plenty. Keep in mind that the standard amount of water needed, at least in the military, by a hard working person is 2 quarts in the day per hour and one quart at night.
Assuming you're traveling at night, that's an easy four hours of hard work for the standard four person party with each spell. That gives you enough water to cover 12 hours of hard work, and even that is under the assumption that "walking" is a part of "hard work."
Walking in full gear in the desert is part of the hard work. It's called a march.
Plus in the desert your water intake is going to be higher (x2 to x3) the amount and that is not counting the water needs for NPC henchmen, horses, animal companions and familiars. For normal sized humans desert travel could easily equal 1 to 2 gallons per person, with full adventuring load/armor and in rough arid terrain, combat, running, etc.Actually the idea of a "watermaker" in the traveling groups can be an interesting concept in a low-resource desert campaign. Killing him could easily doom the rest of his group to die a slow death. Similar to stealing somones horse in the Old West while out in the wilderness.
|
|
That said, I still prefer my encounter where the party has to escape a copper dragon who had tried to imprison them specifically so it had someone to talk to. And then after escaping he'd regularly send them obscenely long letters wherein he babbled about things of little to no importance, just because he loved talking.
Nice. Mind if I borrow that?
|
|
Eh, that would've happened even with limited cantrips.
By level 4 you create 8 gallons of water and can do it 5 times a day. Even at level 2 you have 3 castings of 4 gallons, which would be plenty. Keep in mind that the standard amount of water needed, at least in the military, by a hard working person is 2 quarts in the day per hour and one quart at night.
Assuming you're traveling at night, that's an easy four hours of hard work for the standard four person party with each spell. That gives you enough water to cover 12 hours of hard work, and even that is under the assumption that "walking" is a part of "hard work."
Walking in full gear in the desert is part of the hard work. It's called a march.
Plus in the desert your water intake is going to be higher (x2 to x3) the amount and that is not counting the water needs for NPC henchmen, horses, animal companions and familiars. For normal sized humans desert travel could easily equal 1 to 2 gallons per person, with full adventuring load/armor and in rough arid terrain, combat, running, etc.Actually the idea of a "watermaker" in the traveling groups can be an interesting concept in a low-resource desert campaign. Killing him could easily doom the rest of his group to die a slow death. Similar to stealing somones horse in the Old West while out in the wilderness.
I've read that many desert animals can smell water from miles away. If I ever "trapped" PCs in the desert, I'd definitely increase the random encounter rolls as they create water to satisfy themselves....
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
(Disclaimer: I'm running 3.5 with occasional PF elements ported in. This was prompted by a fight with some ochre jellies.)
Ah, that would explain it.
Yep, grab gives a +4 bonus to the check. AOO damage penalizes the CMB check by the amount of the damage (rather than the 3.5 damage-means-fail rule).
I think part of the roadblock for you is you're looking at it from an ooze standpoint--yes, it would be easier for a blobby tendril to flail and stick rather than require a regular attack roll. I was looking at it from an Earth creature perspective, where most creatures with grab use a claw or bite--like a snake or great cat, where their grabbing attack *is* going to have to deal with the creature's armor and such.
I'm going to talk to Jason about creatures with grab being able to function like they had Improved Grapple, it's an interesting exercise.
(Mind you, one reason ochre jellies have grab and not Improved Grapple is because oozes are mindless and mindless creatures don't have feats.)
I always played my Druid as a spellcaster first, and that role sees a significant boost in Pathfinder.
I think it's at best a wash, honestly -- getting a domain can be good, although, mostly you can pick from domains with spells/abilities that are redundant to you, so you're getting lasting power more than versatility. More feats in PF is nice, admittedly.
Weigh against that that most of the best druid spells in 3.5 either don't exist in PF (they're from splatbooks, etc.) or are significantly weakened (entangle, animal growth, fire seeds, poison, etc.). I think the caster-focused druid is still a very good character, but I think he's not stronger in PF, he's just maybe as good.
Neither of us really touched on the animal companion so far -- that's definitely taken a kick in the junk in PF too, and I think that, too, is for the good. It's depressing to watch the druid's animal companion far outdamage the party's fighter, and then the druid gets a turn, too.
I've resorted to 3 + Stat mod per day for all classes that can use o-level spells. It's a nice happy medium between the 3.5 and PF versions.To make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying classes can cast any cantrip they normally could, EACH, 3 + Stat mod times per day.
So if I had an 18 Int and knew message, mage hand, and ray of frost, I could cast each of them 7 times per day.
Seems fair to me. More uses without getting into infinite land.
Spoilered so as not to derail, because it's a fascinating thread:
So if you were a wizard with an Int of 18, you would have 7 0-level slots. You could cast any cantrip you prepared that day at 1 slot per cantrip cast.
Less book keeping.
Your interpretation would be fine though IMO. But at my table, it would be very rare, even at 1st level, for a PC to blow through that many 0-level spells before a rest.
But at my table, it would be very rare, even at 1st level, for a PC to blow through that many 0-level spells before a rest.
[devil's advocate] So what is the problem with infinite 0-level spells then? [/devil's advocate].
But at my table, it would be very rare, even at 1st level, for a PC to blow through that many 0-level spells before a rest.
[devil's advocate] So what is the problem with infinite 0-level spells then? [/devil's advocate].
Standing around and acting like a fountain for 2 hours.
Having a flashlight powered by the Eveready bunny… it just keeps going, and going…
"I detect magic here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and there, and…"
As Dark Mistress put it, it's minor thing that just bugs me. Kinda like how the developers don't like the "G" word :)
EDIT: or to put it another way, "I just don't like the flavor of that ice cream."
]Dude, I totally agree with you. The power creep is real and it's not a good thing. Wish there was a way to keep it in check.
agree with this- while they fixed some of the CoDzilla stuff and I like the spells changes, the skill changes and the grapple stuff - I find most of the class changes are just a power up. To me this has actually made playing at upper mid level(9+) PF as unfun as playing at high level (16+) in 3.5 is.
The new Cleave is...
Well...
More useful in one way, but...
It still has Power Attack as a pre-req, but doesn't work with power attack at all.
I like how in 3.5, you took PA and then you took cleave, and using PA helped you drop weak targets and move on to the next.
Nowadays, if you use PA with cleave, you're being silly.
All that great art by Sam Wood.
And closed content monsters, but there's nothing that can be done about that.
EDIT: Dungeon magazine. Greyhawk adventures. Comics.
I miss the great wheel cosmology, I also miss the ad&d box sets I know that is not 3.5, I also kind of miss being a dungeonmaster too.
I just realized one thing I miss.. an easier method for advancing monsters by HD. The 3.5 method was very fast and easy to do, while the PF method requires way too much flipping between tables.
|
Contributor
|
On the subject of Improved Grab, is there any reason creatures get this instead of Improved Grapple?
So many creatures out there, who, by rights should act by grabbing and constricting, but can't, because they have to break the defender's full AC first.You do realize that a creature with grab gets +4 on its CMB to start or maintain a grapple? There's no reason you couldn't have it just attempt a grapple and take advantage of that +4 bonus.(Disclaimer: I'm running 3.5 with occasional PF elements ported in. This was prompted by a fight with some ochre jellies.)
Ah; didn't know about the +4 bonus.
I also thought that any damage from the AoO still prevented the grapple attempt.The question remains though. Some creatures would seem to work more intuitively, if they had improved grapple, rather than improved grab.
The former implies they make touch attacks to envelop the enemy, then crush or dissolve them at their leisure.
The latter requires them to get their tentacle through armor, natural armor, and shield, to cause actual damage, before attempting to grapple, which seems an unnecessary pre-requisite.In the encounter I ran, the oozes all needed natural 20s to score wounding hits, so there was only one (failed) attempt at a grab. If they'd had Improved Grapple, they could have acted as I picture them in my mind, flowing into the room and globbling all over.
I'm also guessing additional some design considerations on this one. The Insta-grapple approach is more appropriate to higher CR creatures. First grab, then grapple, then hurt gives PCs a little more time to deal with this. Makes me think of the Dust Digger in Howl of the Carrion King. 3.5 and CR 4. But you can still get that sarlacc feel, even at the low EL. In a book you want to offer a range of combatants against the spectrum of CRs. I haven't looked over the Bestiary to see if I'm guessing right. Just my intuition / 2 cents.
I didn't feel that multiclassing was as restricted in 3.5.
I'm also not too keen on the fly skill.
Random Treasure Table in one of the core books.
Eh, that would've happened even with limited cantrips.
By level 4 you create 8 gallons of water and can do it 5 times a day. Even at level 2 you have 3 castings of 4 gallons, which would be plenty. Keep in mind that the standard amount of water needed, at least in the military, by a hard working person is 2 quarts in the day per hour and one quart at night.
Assuming you're traveling at night, that's an easy four hours of hard work for the standard four person party with each spell. That gives you enough water to cover 12 hours of hard work, and even that is under the assumption that "walking" is a part of "hard work."
Walking in full gear in the desert is part of the hard work. It's called a march.
Plus in the desert your water intake is going to be higher (x2 to x3) the amount and that is not counting the water needs for NPC henchmen, horses, animal companions and familiars. For normal sized humans desert travel could easily equal 1 to 2 gallons per person, with full adventuring load/armor and in rough arid terrain, combat, running, etc.Actually the idea of a "watermaker" in the traveling groups can be an interesting concept in a low-resource desert campaign. Killing him could easily doom the rest of his group to die a slow death. Similar to stealing somones horse in the Old West while out in the wilderness.
The 2 quart day/one quart night approximation IS for desert work. Or rather, it's for conditions of very high heat (with the desert being the first example given).
If you're traveling at night, you need approximately one quart per hour of hard work in a desert situation. That's roughly one gallon for four hours of heavy work per person.
As for familiars, animal companions, henchmen, or horses, that's true! I don't have water for them! On the other hand, horses or camels would greatly reduce the amount of work you do and can carry both their water and more water supplies in general.
To me this has actually made playing at upper mid level(9+) PF as unfun as playing at high level (16+) in 3.5 is.
Is it possible to quantify some of this? I'm genuinely just not seeing it, or maybe I played 3.5 with bigger powergaming math nerds than you did?
I've seen a legit ~10th level 3.5 druid grapple and pin a CR 20? pit fiend without even rolling high. I'm pretty convinced I wouldn't see that in PF. (Even if the classes that weren't remotely competitive in 3.5 are, yeah, tougher in PF at that level.)
It may not count, But I miss Dragon and Dragon magazine. The adventure paths cover the dungeon hole, but I miss a more useful player periodical.
I also like skill tricks, but haven't seen them pathfinderized.
*sigh*
Yeah. I loved being able to read a proper, mainstream publication about my hobby. I guess we have Kobold Quarterly now, but Dragon's legacy is DOA to me, regardless of what WOTC decided to do with it.The more I think about it the angrier I get. The irony is that if Paizo would have kept doing Dungeon and Dragon, they would have had to invest in 4e and produce material in that ouvre, both adding to the dearth of good adventures/4e compatable material AND removing WotC's biggest competitor from the market.
Random Treasure Table in one of the core books.
Have a look in the Gamemastery guide for those...
1) Power Attack does not work with Touch Attacks (nor does the ranged equivalent they put in). This is an unnecessary hit to martial characters, especially when it really only gets into the high damage range at higher levels (you know, the levels where casters are blowing up the world). Otherwise, PA works better and far more smoothly now, despite the overall lower cap on it (which some hardcore 3.5 people are not fond of).
2) Bardic music. Rounds per day is NOT better. The new Lingering Song prevents twisting, which was the whole point of taking lingering song in the first place imo.
What?
I'm not a fan of unrelated people in some office somewhere telling the gaming group how they *must* play or they're doing it wrong.
FYI - the "society" rules or "living" rules or whatever.
As presented it was packaged adventures, run by GM's that followed *exactly* the path of the adventure and had NO ability to deviate, or alter anything.
To me, it was railroading and took the whole "open experience" of gaming right out of the game. How can you just have canned adventures and be straight-jacketed into one and ONE way to play it ever?
Nah - not for me. Not under any circumstances or conditions. I'll never go back to that, or partake in that style of game again. I found it far too limiting in scope to be enjoyable for me.