Four other friends and I after 15 years have decided to tackle a Role playing game once again. After some debate between GURPS, D&D, and Pathfinder, We have decided to start player pathfinder. We are all friends from childhood and managed to end up living relatively close to each other in our adulthood. The one dilemma that we have hit is that none of us are skilled DM with very little experience dating 15 years back. All of us would prefer to play however two of us are willing to take a shot at DM. I do believe that dungeon mastering is almost an Art from in itself. I also think that the importance of a good DM grows with Adult players. So how do we develop a DM? And do we keep our interest during what could be a “boring” development period? All thoughts, ideas and input welcome!
And do we keep our interest during what could be a “boring” development period? All thoughts, ideas and input welcome!
Laugh a lot. Whoever decides to GM will make a lot of mistakes. If you can see the humor in them, then you'll enjoy the experience a lot more.
As a player, I tend to enjoy the times when things go WRONG for my character as much as when they go right. I've had embarassing fumbles and bad decisions that absolutely humiliated me. I look back on those as moments as being as key to the character's storyline as when he did really cool stuff. Hopefully your crew will feel the same way.Running an Adventure Path will make things easier to manage. Coming up with a whole new story and every encounter within it could be a whale of a job for someone just getting back into the game. After you feel more comfortable, you can put in your on sidebars... be they non-combat or combat. So long as the players don't progress too fast for the published material, I guess. But if they do, you can tweek that as well.
Anyway, good luck and keep it light. It's supposed to be fun afterall!
you could take turns as GM's, either same campaign, or different campaign.
You would see how the others do it, and find who's the best at it.
And you certainly don't need to "build a GM", one tries, and does his best. (that's how I did it, with just 1 year experience, and having seen only 1 DM at work ^^)
First of, improvisation and knowing a bit about the rules is the most important. Second important is hiding the fact that you only improvise to your players. Some of my monsters don't have a fix AC, attack or hp, but none of my players ever suspected that ^^
For the rest, you got to know the players (which you obviously do), and know how much they roleplay, wanna fight, want items, etc.
For my, roleplaying a lot of different people, and invent details on the spot was (is) the hardest part. So tables with names, or something helps a lot.
hope I could help, because your questions were very general. Feel free to ask more specificly :)
Starting with published adventures is a good idea. Picking up an adventure path like the ones paizo puts out can lighten the load on a new dm tremendously. It has the story and encounters there for you, and also lots of advice on how to handle certain player actions and questions. They also dont take the approach of some published adventures and tell you everything you are supposed to say and do, but instead give you the background and basic info and let you take the reins. It is a great learning tool.
Like dire hobbit said, dont be afraid to make mistakes. You will, we all did, and still do. Laugh and move on, and have an agreement at the table on how to handle dm mistakes. You can either just move on and correct the mistake in the future, or backtrack and correct it retroactively, but make sure whichever you are going to do, that everyone at the table understands and agrees on it.
Welcome to the game and to the interesting land behind the DM screen.
Any chance you live in Utah? I know a DM looking for players there...
Other than that, I suggest the same things already said. Learn the rules together. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Don't be afraid to fix mistakes you've already made. Don't be afraid to ell each other when someone makes a mistake (and don't get offended if it's you).
Sooner or later you'll all be experts at the rules, and maybe you'll find that one (or more) of you enjoys DMing and is good at it. Or, if not, then you can always rotate the chore (my group has 3 DMs and we rotate that responsibility so no one DM gets burned out, and so we all get to play as well as DM).
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There are as lot of resources out there for newer GMs. The Gamemastery Guide, while a bit of a recycling center for experienced GMs, is a damn treasure trove for the unexperienced (and there's a lot of great stuff in there for the experienced GMS as well).
The most important thing about GMing isn't knowing the rules back and forth (though it is one of the more important things), but having the desire and drive to provide a compelling and challenging story for your players. If you guys come across a particular rule that makes things difficult as you're starting out, don't hesitate to cover it with a towel until you feel you're ready to tackle it. Like grappling. It's much simpler in Pathfinder than in 3rd edition, but still an awkward sticking point. It'll make your combats less interesting if you avoid grappling, but much smoother.
That being said, welcome back to gaming and just have fun with it. ^_^
Any chance you live in Utah? I know a DM looking for players there...
Other than that, I suggest the same things already said. Learn the rules together. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Don't be afraid to fix mistakes you've already made. Don't be afraid to ell each other when someone makes a mistake (and don't get offended if it's you).
Sooner or later you'll all be experts at the rules, and maybe you'll find that one (or more) of you enjoys DMing and is good at it. Or, if not, then you can always rotate the chore (my group has 3 DMs and we rotate that responsibility so no one DM gets burned out, and so we all get to play as well as DM).
Blake we do live in Utah Valley. Where about does your friend live?
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I would recommend starting with some PF Rules Adventures (either the Adventure Path line or some of the Gamemastery stand-alone adventures)
Encounter design becomes very time consuming, and can easily get overwhelming for new players/DM's.
Some easy tips to make your game go smoother:
Make sure everyone has a copy of the core rules. You'll likely need 1 for every 2 players at the table, but everyone should have one of their own to read at the own pace. PDF's are great here.
Share the load of the "DM Tasks". At my table, I have one player who plays "assistant DM". She tracks initiative, double checks spells & other rules, and helps keep track of per-round stuff (like bleed damage, time of spell buffs/debuffs, etc). Use your players, get them involved in the mechanics of the game, and they will be more invested at the table.
Use initiative cards, or something like the Gamemastery Initiative Tracker Board. Something concrete you can reference in you hand (or on the wall) will make it a LOT easier than the old "write names down in order" from 2ed.
Have someone take notes. This can be the DM, or someone designated for the session, but make sure someone is logging the names of people you spoke with, places you visited, and any strange or exotic type things that happened. This will be invaluable later on if you continue a campaign.
Likewise, have someone be the "party treasurer." Whatever way the group decides to split the loot, one person should be sure to record what they find, and note who gets what and in what order.
Finally, take it easy at the table. If you have a few hardcore rules fanatics, it gets a little tedious for new players (no, you can't do that, you don't have the right skill set, etc...) If you play with a light heart and don't take it too seriously, your day will improve significantly.
You could do worse than to try an adventure path. When I came back to 3.5/PF after a 4 or 5 year break, the runelords AP was a godsend. It provides a lot of little GM details that I would have forgotten to include, like treasure distribution, challenge balance (sort of... runelords), knowledge checks for things later in the campaign etc.
APs are not for everyone, but they can definitely lessen the learning curve on GMing by a considerable amount. I would recommend starting with maybe Legacy of Fire, Kingmaker, or one of the dungeon APs. There's a large body of advice on "which AP?" to be found on these forums.
There's still an unavoidable learning curve to the game, though, and you will have several moments where not knowing the rules will let the players get away with murder. I suggest rolling with it. Make sure the players understand it is a learning experience and that the rules are subject to change/interpretation during play.
I'll echo those who recommend using an Adventure Path. Since you have all the encounters handy, you can prepare and read on what encounters you got..Stuff like the Combat Maneuvers your monsters are likely to use.
Make sure things go smoothly and don't enforce some things at first(vision rules for example). I guess since most of your players won't be 100% familiar with the rules it shouldn't be an issue. The DM simply has to be careful about keeping it fair..
Have a player help the DM keep track of the initiative and conditions.
I'll echo those who recommend using an Adventure Path. Since you have all the encounters handy, you can prepare and read on what encounters you got..Stuff like the Combat Maneuvers your monsters are likely to use.
Make sure things go smoothly and don't enforce some things at first(vision rules for example). I guess since most of your players won't be 100% familiar with the rules it shouldn't be an issue. The DM simply has to be careful about keeping it fair..
Have a player help the DM keep track of the initiative and conditions.
Due diligence: there are downsides to APs. They can be "railroady", although I see that as an opportunity as a GM to "customize".
Another downside is that it is a LOT of material that you need to be familiar with before running. Hundreds of pages. Now, it's less like "rules" familiarity and more like reading a lengthy novel, but still —
APs don't save you time. They save you effort.
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After reading your OP I don't think you're gonna have any problems.
-You guys are playing for fun.
-You know that no one really knows the rules so you accept it's gonna take a while to learn what's fun, what works/ doesn't.
-You have access to the Boards to ask questions and get advice.
. . . .
I'd say that getting an experienced DM to join your group of friends may not be the best solution. If he's a good and fair DM, willing to listen to what y'all want and join you, it can be great -- but if he approaches you like a teacher, a master of the game to spew his wisdom -- it could get uncomfortable.
Play with your friends for a while and get comfortable with what you guys like before you get another Player involved, especially as DM.
In a few months let him join as a Player, absolutely! And if you guys like him and he appears to be a good addition to your group it'll be awesome if you feel you can trust him as DM.
. . . .
Also, start with a short published adventure -- kinda like a playtest. We call it "Orc-N-Pie" when you play a short adventure (really just one fight) to try and learn the rules to the new game.
If you start with a long adventure you can find yourself changing so many of your rules and such and backpeddling stuff in the middle of the adventure; it can be awkward.
Better to start and finish something while learning. Then, after you get a grasp on your gaming style -- go for the Adventure Path.
Wow, thanks everyone for the quick and insightful responses.
Multiple GM wanna-try types? Grab an Adventure Path set and GM 1 gets the first module, then GM 2 gets the next. I have not tried this, but a friend's group did this back with the Giants modules long ago.
RPG Superstar 2013
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Wow, thanks everyone for the quick and insightful responses.
I am going to give you some different advice. Go to and ask for the folks there to give you advice. You'll see many of the same people there as here, but that is a place where people compete as DMs and really learn to give their tables a great time.
As an example, just check out our grading format for irondm events: We look to score on seamless rules knowledge, use of the available elements, and overall panache.
To find a great DM in your midst, you need someone who is willing to digest the rules of the game, but is really going to focus on fun and not rules. He/she also needs to be willing to get schooled on rules they didn't read correctly the first time, and also have the hutzpa to ignore the printed rule if the folk rule enables everyone to have a good time.
You might not be getting random elements to form your story out of every session, but it will certainly sharpen those trying to be great DMs and story tellers. Also, a good DM knows how to use the things at his disposal: the personalities, favorites or expectations of the people at his table. While it isn't the same as crafting an adventure using 'frost giants, funerals and flashbacks', it uses the same set of skills: crafting encounters and story elements using the idea already at his table.
Finally, pinache means a lot of things. But the best DM in your group will really enjoy that part of the game, and will seek to bring the fun. I think good DM pinache includes rooting for the PCs, but also giving them a hard time and not being afraid to whack them if the story is right, or if the game is too easy, or if they do something incredibly dumb. At my table, doing something dumb and random in the face of the story is a one way ticket to your next PC. Because everyone knows that, the game gets a level expectation about the story being told. Of course, you have folk who are looking for different things when they come to the table, too. So you have to be able to give the silly guy something silly to do, or the serious guy a dramatic scene that makes his night, or the chop-it-up girl some crunchy guys with low AC and high hit points to chop up heroically.
You are doing the right thing choosing Pathfinder and coming to this forum. You'll all have a great time as long as you trust each other and have a little patience.
Say howdy when you go to the site.
I'll chime in and suggest using a stand alone starter (level 1) adventure to get your feet wet.
Crown of the Kobold King (has sequals if desired) or Master of the Fallen Fortress are both good to get your feet wet with.
It will also give the players and DM time to get familiar with the system in play regarding combat, etc.
After one of those is done, then I would suggest trying your hand at an adventure path,or one of the followup adventures to kobold king I mentioned above.
You and the other person could alternate through a few modules to get the feel of the game. Here is a list of the Falcon's Hollow Gamemastery modules.
Campaign centered in Falcon's Hollow
D0 1st
D1 2nd
D1.5 5th
E1 5th (maybe-or put it after D4 and scale it up)
D4 6th
D0 - Hollow's Last Hope
D1 - Crown of the Kobold King
D1.5 - Revenge of the Kobold King
E1 - Carnival of Tears
D4 - Hungry are the Dead
D0, D1, D1.5 and D4 are tied together. E1 is still set in Falcon's Hollow but is a break from Kobolds, and is just a bloody good module.
The only issue is that they are for DnD 3.5 rules so there would be some small amounts of conversion to Pathfinder rules.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Lots of great advice already given. If you are getting together with a group of friends all just getting back in gaming for the first time in a long time you'll have no issues as everyone gets up to speed. Relax, have fun and all should be well - coupled with some of the excellent advice already posted.
You might also want to check out a copy of the Gamemastery Guide that Paizo put out recently too. It also has a large amount of GM'ing advice that might help you get used to the idea.
Good luck and have fun!
Mr. Fishy played three two hour sessions when the Dm said your running.
Mr. Fishy borrowed the First Quest box set ran it for his buddy and his brother, made up stuff to fill in the gaps added a mid level NPC to draw fire and screwed up a lot, like a lot lot.
We laughed and after a while Mr. Fishy got better, the games got better, Mr. Fishy is ashamed of some of the stupidness he did and allowed but it was the most fun ever at the time. The games were simple, the plot was a joke but it didn't matter because we were playing and having a blast.
The best advice any one can give is enjoy the game, and the game with be fun.
MR. FISHY
The best advice any one can give is enjoy the game, and the game with be fun.
MR. FISHY
+1, MR. FISHY ROX!
Mr. Fishy has a fan club [The Mr. Fishy Fan Club] SHAMELESS PLUG!
Mr. Fishy is a shameless attention whore.
Tier Fishy!!!
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There are many styles of GM, but I recommend finding your GM persona.
My GM persona is antagonistic entertainer. My players enjoy the challenge of a tough fight, where the dice decide their fates. So I play it up. I roll in front of all my players during combat, cackling madly every time I threaten a critical hit, or roll max damage. My players know that I'm not fudging the dice for or against them. So they have to be at the top of their game. They also know that talking and thinking their way through situations means they are less likely to get stomped on because of a lucky roll or two.
That said: I've also played the benevolent GM, rolling behind the screen turning the occasional crit into a mere hit, or failing the saves of some mooks just so the wizard would get a chance to see his nifty new spell shine. (This is the persona I usually take with newer players).
You GM persona is different from your regular persona. You have to be a fair arbiter of the rules, or table disputes. You have to be a story teller, and an improviser. You have to be a rules designer, and you'll have to break the rules occasionally to keep the tempo.
The only way to become a good GM is to RUN GAMES. That is the secret to successful GMing. Accept that you'll sometimes have games that don't go great (I've had my fair of flops). Don't be afraid to let your players try new and interesting things, or go off in unexpected directions. It's why we have random encounter tables after all.
I watched the DM Commentary videos on the WoTC site where Chris Perkins DM'ed a session for newbies. He gives all kinds of tips and insights:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/videos.aspx
I find hearing his comments and then seeing the interaction at the table, as a tangible example, quite valuable.
Personally I think then number 1 requirement for a GM is Flexibility. Being able to react to all the crazy and wacky sh*t the players will try is important. I've been in games where the GM had no flexibility and it has sucked. Whoever is GM needs to be ready to give the players room to try things that are interesting and creative.
Other than that I will add my +1 to two comments made already.
APs can be really good for new GMs. They do a lot of the work for you, but they can be modified and MANY people on the board will be happy to help you do so. I'd recommend actually talking with the other players about which AP seems the most interesting to the group.
You all already have everything you really need for a good game. Don't be afraid to get started. The more you do it the better the GM will get, the better the players will get and the more fun you will have.
Get started, have fun and good luck.
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There are many styles of GM, but I recommend finding your GM persona.
My GM persona is antagonistic entertainer. My players enjoy the challenge of a tough fight, where the dice decide their fates. So I play it up. I roll in front of all my players during combat, cackling madly every time I threaten a critical hit, or roll max damage. My players know that I'm not fudging the dice for or against them. So they have to be at the top of their game. They also know that talking and thinking their way through situations means they are less likely to get stomped on because of a lucky roll or two.
+1
The other thing I'd add is that running published APs and modules is great, but do take the time to transcribe the material and make it your own. Simply cold reading a block text description can come across as flat/boring/monotonous, and important details and information about the scene might be lost (esp. if there's also other table-talk going on).
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Is this golden oldies week on the Paizo forums? This has to be the 10th thread I've seen in the past couple of days that's been resurrected from 2 years ago.
You can also YouTube advice, there are toooons of good videos out there. DawnforgedCast helped me a lot when I was starting. He's got videos on DMing AND Pathfinder Basics for yo and your table.