Clarifying the "Playing Up" Rule


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Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Raymond Lambert wrote:
I want it fixed.

Are you saying that you have taken player & GM credit for every 1-7 & 5-9 scenario? If not, I see plenty of opportunity to get thru that level 6 hole you find yourself in.

Making a wholesale change in the tier guidelines this late in the game, especially knowing that 1-7 is being eliminated (??) in lieu of 1-5 and 3-7 tiers, does not sound like the best solution.

The Exchange 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:

I wish people would stop suggesting Modules as a Fix to anything.

Module Play is a nice addition to Regular PFS game play, but it is not a substitution for regular PFS game-play due to the time it takes to run one. For many who just get to play 4-5 hours a week or bi-weekly or even once a month Modules will rarely if ever get played.

Too true. The times I've seen modules run at game days in my area, the majority of them get rushed through or not finished at all. You need (at a minimum) of 12 hours for all the ones I've seen so far. Great additions for PFS, but require a lot more out of everyone involved.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Joseph Caubo wrote:
Too true. The times I've seen modules run at game days in my area, the majority of them get rushed through or not finished at all. You need (at a minimum) of 12 hours for all the ones I've seen so far. Great additions for PFS, but require a lot more out of everyone involved.

I would never run one at our Game day, except for Free RPG ones, which are different.

I use them for when I have a 3-4 day weekend and I invite 5 of the players from the Local PFS game to play at my house all day and into another if needed.

*

When I ran Godsmouth Heresy it was actually crazy short, like, disappointingly so. I think six hours, maybe.

The Exchange 5/5

Varthanna wrote:
When I ran Godsmouth Heresy it was actually crazy short, like, disappointingly so. I think six hours, maybe.

Seven hours is an average time for Godsmouth. It's possible to solve the mystery in four encounters. Once a group did it in under six. Most groups take the "No door left behind" strategy and that leads to 8-10 hours of play. I've run Godsmouth 6 times now. Running Ebon Destroyers twice this month. However, the modules are best played on a weekend when there's a whole day dedicated to them. Trying to do one at a convention or gameday is possible, but as Joseph pointed out this will lead to rushing through encounters. There are almost 40 encounters in Godsmouth Heresy, if you count combats, traps and puzzles.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Doug Miles wrote:
Seven hours is an average time for Godsmouth. It's possible to solve the mystery in four encounters. Once a group did it in under six. Most groups take the "No door left behind" strategy and that leads to 8-10 hours of play. I've run Godsmouth 6 times now. Running Ebon Destroyers twice this month. However, the modules are best played on a weekend when there's a whole day dedicated to them. Trying to do one at a convention or gameday is possible, but as Joseph pointed out this will lead to rushing through encounters. There are almost 40 encounters in Godsmouth Heresy, if you count combats, traps and puzzles.

My question is... How fast could Thea run it in?..;)

5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
My question is... How fast could Thea run it in?..;)

Before the players even sit down.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Kyle Baird wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
My question is... How fast could Thea run it in?..;)
Before the players even sit down.

Is that with our without a Pee break?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Dragnmoon wrote:
Is that with our without a Pee break?

The only appreciable time will be spent on the pee break. ;-)

The Exchange 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:
Seven hours is an average time for Godsmouth. It's possible to solve the mystery in four encounters. Once a group did it in under six. Most groups take the "No door left behind" strategy and that leads to 8-10 hours of play. I've run Godsmouth 6 times now. Running Ebon Destroyers twice this month. However, the modules are best played on a weekend when there's a whole day dedicated to them. Trying to do one at a convention or gameday is possible, but as Joseph pointed out this will lead to rushing through encounters. There are almost 40 encounters in Godsmouth Heresy, if you count combats, traps and puzzles.
My question is... How fast could Thea run it in?..;)

Really??!!! Why invoke the bunny on this sheesh

Kyle Baird wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

My question is... How fast could Thea run it in?..;)

Before the players even sit down.

O

M

G

Dragnmoon" wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:
My question is... How fast could Thea run it in?..;)

Before the players even sit down.

Is that with our without a Pee break?

Bunnies have small bladders .. deal with it

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

We hope that playing up will be more clearly defined going forward.

Instead of the confusing Tiers within Tiers (since subtiers have been called Tiers since day 1), we'll be using "Tier" to only refer to the levels of characters that can play a given scenario. "Subtier" will be used to denote which set of stats are used or what rewards are earned and will hopefully avoid a lot of the confusion that stemmed from the overuse of the term "Tier" in the rules and scenarios up to this point.

Scarab Sages

I see there'll soon be a change in the range of the Tiers.

Is that because writers were finding it difficult to create encounters that challenged level 1-2 and level 6-7 appropriately?

Although statblocks can be advanced, one has to also bear in mind the prevailing terrain and hazards, e.g. I would expect half the PCs of level 7 to have a reliable means of flight, so could experiment more with impassable terrain, chasms and split-level ambush situations, which would require a different map.

The Exchange 5/5

Snorter wrote:

I see there'll soon be a change in the range of the Tiers.

Is that because writers were finding it difficult to create encounters that challenged level 1-2 and level 6-7 appropriately?

Although statblocks can be advanced, one has to also bear in mind the prevailing terrain and hazards, e.g. I would expect half the PCs of level 7 to have a reliable means of flight, so could experiment more with impassable terrain, chasms and split-level ambush situations, which would require a different map.

I think they are just trying to get back to the original tier spread. The reason the Tier 3-7s were expanded to cover 1-2 back in Season 0 was due to a perceived lack of low-level play opportunities. In my experience, many players are constantly starting new characters instead of advancing their existing ones. Then they complained that they were out of low-level scenarios to play. So hopefully this change means that a more Tier 1-5 and Introductory scenarios are going to be introduced than in previous Seasons.

Scarab Sages

That makes sense; you need more low-level scenarios than high-level, because more people will be playing them, either as new players, or replacing a dead PC.

Here's a question that ties into the necessity for people to play up or down;

As someone who may, hypothetically, GM at a future event, how do you organise short-notice events, so you get a compatible mixture of potential PCs? And ensure that no-one is turned away disappointed?

For more formal sessions (eg Paizocon) you can get the attendees to send details of their PCs ahead of time, but how do you deal with strangers walking in off the street? Does it require setting limits, like 'Tomorrow is new player initiation', 'next week is veterans weekend (Tier 9-10)', et al.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Snorter wrote:

That makes sense; you need more low-level scenarios than high-level, because more people will be playing them, either as new players, or replacing a dead PC.

Here's a question that ties into the necessity for people to play up or down;

As someone who may, hypothetically, GM at a future event, how do you organise short-notice events, so you get a compatible mixture of potential PCs? And ensure that no-one is turned away disappointed?

For more formal sessions (eg Paizocon) you can get the attendees to send details of their PCs ahead of time, but how do you deal with strangers walking in off the street? Does it require setting limits, like 'Tomorrow is new player initiation', 'next week is veterans weekend (Tier 9-10)', et al.

There are a few solutions available:

Publish clearly the level range for the game sessions you have planned.

Make sure you have a full set of the pregens available for the game being run.

Unfortunately, due to the locale I usually run at, I am unable to use a Warhorn site for signups, but that also can help, since it is possible to have people put in their PC's genre and level. It also allows entering information, including the tiering, for the scenario being run that can be pulled up by the prospective player.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Callarek wrote:
Unfortunately, due to the locale I usually run at, I am unable to use a Warhorn site for signups,

Ok, I am confused how a Place you play can effect if you can use Warhorn or not?

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Callarek wrote:
Unfortunately, due to the locale I usually run at, I am unable to use a Warhorn site for signups,
Ok, I am confused how a Place you play can effect if you can use Warhorn or not?

I run at a game store.

They have their own event calendar.

With simple signups (name only, basically; no waiting list capability, no PC information) on it.

I tried setting up a Warhorn site, as well, but having to make people signup twice is ugly. Especially as, at that time, the store wanted their signup treated as primary. And getting the link for the Warhorn site included in the event descriptions was not possible due to the store's calendar's limitations.

That, and I get tired of constantly adding (and removing when retired) scenario names and descriptions for scenarios for multiple play systems, especially as I was the only one working on the web site, and never got much in the way of user registrations...

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Callarek wrote:


I run at a game store.

They have their own event calendar.

With simple signups (name only, basically; no waiting list capability, no PC information) on it.

I tried setting up a Warhorn site, as well, but having to make people signup twice is ugly. Especially as, at that time, the store wanted their signup treated as primary. And getting the link for the Warhorn site included in the event descriptions was not possible due to the store's calendar's limitations.

That, and I get tired of constantly adding (and removing when retired) scenario names and descriptions for scenarios for multiple play systems, especially as I was the only one working on the web site, and never got much in the way of user registrations...

That sucks, seems like the store was not willing to work with you, the Store calendar should be used as an advertisement for the game that is all, they should be willing to work with you to advertise the game but link to your sign up, you bring the customers.

On being the only one, I am the same, but I guess I am ok with that.

On registration not happening, I would tell your players if they want to play they need to sign up *regular player, not new unannounced players*, Also give them an incentive, for my group I give them a "Shirt Re-Roll" if the register to my sights. I use both Obsidian Portal and Warhorn. I just use the Store calender for advertising the game so players searching on thier page are aware there is a PFS game.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/55/5 Venture-Agent, Indiana—Lafayette

my handful of coppers on scheduling:

Our FLGS events are kind of in the middle of Callarek & Dragnmoon's.

Our FLGS's website is not easily updated, so I have an Obsidian Portal (thanks Dragnmoon) web site where the players can see our tentative scenario plan a couple months out and a paper copy posted at the store. We have a basic description on the store's web site and a link to Paizo's PFS page and Obsidian Portal.

Up until recently our attendance has been very chaotic and unpredictable.
Although over the last couple months we have had 12-17 consistent players, two regular GMs and a couple stand-by / fill in GMs.

I like the "shirt re-roll" incentive and it may be time to look into using Warhorn to help alleviate the mustering chaos on game days.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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I would like to make a request to Unstiky this, since it is no longer fully accurate based on 4.0 Guide.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Dragnmoon wrote:
I would like to make a request to Unstiky this, since it is no longer fully accurate based on 4.0 Guide.

Good suggestion. Done.


Sorry to dig up an old thread but I was trying to find information on "Playing up". The OP shows what you "can do" but is that a decision that the group makes? Does the GM make it?

How do you determine APL with 5 or 6 people at the table? I know with 4 people you just add up the levels and divide by 4.

4/5 5/5 **

The rules discussed in this thread are no longer relevant with the release of Guide 5.0 in August.

APL is total party levels divided by the number of players. Round to the nearest whole number. Then see what Guide 5.0 says to do. Player choice to play up or down has almost completely been removed.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Slacker2010 wrote:

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I was trying to find information on "Playing up". The OP shows what you "can do" but is that a decision that the group makes? Does the GM make it?

How do you determine APL with 5 or 6 people at the table? I know with 4 people you just add up the levels and divide by 4.

This post is 2-3 years old and the rules for determining APL and tier selection have changed. Your answers are in the the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Look for the section "Determining Subtier" in the Gamemaster section.

4/5 *

As of the latest guide, the rules have changed and there is no longer a choice except in a very special corner case.

If the APL of the party falls between tiers, the decision to play up is based on party size. The following is my way of remembering it:

"Large" parties play up, "small" parties play down.

The definition of "large" is based on season.
For Season 4 and after, when 4 player adjustments came in, "large" is a party of 5 or more. When a large party plays up in those seasons, they use the 4 player adjustment. When a small party plays down, they do *not* use the 4 player adjustment.

For Seasons 3 and earlier, when there are no 4 player adjustments, "large" is a party of 6 or more. (The lack of an adjustment justifies the change in definition.)

If the rule above would have the party play up, *but* no member of the party is actually in the high tier, then the party is able to choose to play down instead. The example of this is a party of six characters all level 3 in a Tier 1-5.

Hope that helps!


Thank you for the quick answers.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Y'all say that the rules in the OP no longer apply, but it is still a good reminder that players cannot play out of Tier (No level 1 characters in a Tier 3-7 under any circumstances).

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