Does your campaign scale to the PC's level?


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A "static" game is where the campaign threat level remains the same as the PCs continue to grow in power. Those 1st level serfs or 3rd level guards who were once a threat to the 1st level PCs don't even qualify as a minor xp bonus, let alone a threat, to 6th and higher PCs.

Campaigns that scale, though, are where the threat levels match the PCs level. Using the examples above, the serfs and guards threat increase in abilities, hit points, etc., so that the PCs almost always have to think twice about brushing them off/burning down their village/ignoring the threat of arrest, etc.

So, what's your campaign?


Usually in my games i use a mix of both. After all the fact PC's are above the average of their races doesn't mean automatically there are not stronger foes around. As a guidance main plots ( those of the main campaign- but have still to start DMing pathfinder) stick to the balanced method, if players want to stretch their luck and go with quests i already planned as secondary and more dangerous they are likely to face TPK....but in such cases that is hardly GM's fault.

But one thing is for sure, i always plan where are greater challenges, and usually i try to let players know they could have to face a CR too high for them at a determined stage of the campaign. If they still want to try.....

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GreatNagai wrote:
If they still want to try.....

LOL. Yah. That reminded me of one 3.x game where the DM describe a dream sequence of our PCs getting annihilated if we went through a particular door. We did, lost half our PCs while the survivors sold their souls to the (minor) devils controlling the complex. :-)


joela wrote:
LOL. Yah. That reminded me of one 3.x game where the DM describe a dream sequence of our PCs getting annihilated if we went through a particular door. We did, lost half our PCs while the survivors sold their souls to the (minor) devils controlling the complex. :-)

We did worse...can't remember the module, it involved taking control of a valley in a competition with another pc's group (it was a lvl 7-9 adventure for the basic D&D published by TSR....yes,back in the Jurassic )

Anyway we cleaned the valley by all creatures until the last boss...actually it was a group of 1 main boss (adult red dragon)and 2 mini bosses ( youngling red dragons ) OUCH.
With the combined strength of both groups we started planning a surprise attack involving magic buffed stealth and all of the ice spells our wizards could squeeze.At least we thought there were all of us...a fighter tried to take a deeper look on its own and....triple simultaneous red dragon breath on everyone :(

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GreatNagai wrote:
joela wrote:
LOL. Yah. That reminded me of one 3.x game where the DM describe a dream sequence of our PCs getting annihilated if we went through a particular door. We did, lost half our PCs while the survivors sold their souls to the (minor) devils controlling the complex. :-)

We did worse...can't remember the module, it involved taking control of a valley in a competition with another pc's group (it was a lvl 7-9 adventure for the basic D&D published by TSR....yes,back in the Jurassic )

Anyway we cleaned the valley by all creatures until the last boss...actually it was a group of 1 main boss (adult red dragon)and 2 mini bosses ( youngling red dragons ) OUCH.
With the combined strength of both groups we started planning a surprise attack involving magic buffed stealth and all of the ice spells our wizards could squeeze.At least we thought there were all of us...a fighter tried to take a deeper look on its own and....triple simultaneous red dragon breath on everyone :(

Ow ;-(

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joela wrote:
Campaigns that scale, though, are where the threat levels match the PCs level. Using the examples above, the serfs and guards threat increase in abilities, hit points, etc., so that the PCs almost always have to think twice about brushing them off/burning down their village/ignoring the threat of arrest, etc.

This will cause the Player Characters to feel unimportant. If they never become more important/powerful then the NPCs then the question of why "they" should go deal with what ever adventure problem comes up. (i.e., if the NPC guardsmen are so powerful, what do they need us for?)

A better counter, is if the player start acting like brigands or villains, then more Heroic NPC adventurers, that can (and should) scale with the party's level, should start considering your player characters as a worthy sourse of experience points.

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Not really. I subscribe to an ecology that puts threats of a certain level in some areas, growing larger and more dangerous the further from civilization (or deeper under it) the PCs go. PCs can push through to the harder locations if they like but they'll be in a lot of danger the whole time, or they can stick close to the safer territories but the rewards scale with the danger level.

That said - There are always outliers. Either terrible things locked away in the safer areas. Scavengers and parasites in the more dangerous areas.

Liberty's Edge

If your lowly tavern bruiser and town militia are always a match for the PC then the PCs start to wonder why they bother adventuring at all. I like to keep general nobodies at a static level while the important PCs scale with the PCs but at to a lesser degree.

If the PCs are smart enough to realise the Big Bad End Guy is too powerful then they should be rewarded for going out to better themselves before taking him on.

Also if they start to push around the little guy too much they could very well end up with a pissed off mob on their hands......Using mob rules from I can't remember where????? basically the mob are treated like a swarm that does trample damage to the PCs.....no need to roll to hit just make a save for half damage.

There are always ways around PCs that get too big for their boots than combat with a lowly serf. there will always be concequences.

Liberty's Edge

You should scale up, but you shouldn't scale up the same NPCs.

So, the party starts a ruckus in town at 2nd level, and the 3rd level town guardsman comes along to stop them.

Later, the 7th level party starts messing up the same town. Now, the 10th level enforcer of the Baron's personal guard takes notice and goes to deal with them.

It's not that the threats are growing with the PCs, or that the larger threats were never there - there are big threats and little threats, and the big threats don't care about you until you're closer to their size. If you've ever played Munchkin, you should have an idea of this - the really high level monsters can't be bothered with adventurers of less than 5th level.

The exception to this rule should be rival parties of NPCs, or recurring arch-nemeses, who should totally be gaining levels at least at the same rate as the PCs.


There were some funky rules on creating a town watch that were in an old issue of Dungeon many many years ago that I converted to 3.0...and it worked WONDERFULLY. I think elements of it show up in some of the later 3.5 stuff where you have a listing of the npcs in a town and their levels. Some towns are really sleepy and don't have anyone over a certain level, no matter what their class. Others are huge and have more opportunities for experience and thereby have more people with higher levels. Sometimes the party is just going to bite off more than they can chew. It happens, and its disappointing that DMs have to handhold on that particular issue.


I scale up important NPCs, especially when they play a large part in an encounter, so I do not not scale up every encounter.

Sometimes I reuse an encounter when the PCs missed it the first time, and depending on the situation I either scale it up or leave it as it is. (e.g. The orc village which plays a minor part in the adventure is not scaled up, but the evil necromancer who is messing with the cemetary, is scaled up.)

I scale up encounters when I want to make them more memorable, and I do not scale them up when I want to show to the players how powerful they have become.


My DM does the mix thing too.
Sure we could walk all over the town guard or go pillaging the local area but theirs always more of them than there are of us. You can roast 60+ villagers in a single fireball if thats your thing but the 61st on the roof with a crossbow might get a crit. If you become too much of a problem then some body will be glad to hire the evil NPC assasin to kill you in your sleep.

In our current game we are all dragonmarks of house orien in the city of thalios and have just foiled a plan that the arch bishop of the silver flame had hired kenku to kill known supporters of aundair.
We can't touch him due to his political protection but we can help protect the rebels loyal to Queen Aurela.
We know that yes we could fireball the arch bishop or otherwise kill him BUT the entire church of the silver flame would kill us all house protection or not and the people of thaliost would suffer even more under the chrurches brutality and occupation.
Thats how you keep powerfull PC's like us from thinking that they are all rastlins in training or the next drizzit from the jungles of xendrick.

Scarab Sages

Some threats do scale with PCs over time. In one of my current campaigns, the PCs are searching for a lost city and its legendary lore vault. They know they are in a race against a minotaur shaman (Cantor Mazeborn) and his allies.

The PCs have never fought cantor directly, but they have dueled him in political arenas, and fought some of his allies. As the game has progressed, they're realizing that Cantor is adventuring too, and gaining levels and loot. Originally he had just a few by-the-book minotaur guards from his homeland to protect him. When the PCs last tangled with him, he had hired a hill giant clan to back him up, and had called in a minotaur champion from his homeland. And they know from hearing about cantor's missions in the region that he's learning new spells and picking up new magic items.

He's gaining levels, and the PCs know it.

Other threats are dynamic encounters made from of static elements. A group of kobold slavers that gave the PC fits the first few levels of the game were recently eliminated by the heroes. Early on, facing 6-12 kobolds was a hit-and-run raid. Later, the PCs could face squads easily, and consider raiding slave camps to free everyone. The kobolds weren't any tougher but there were a lot of them, and in major strongholds there were a few sorcerers and warriors with levels. Now, the heroes took the time to break the back of the entire operation. A surprising number of those encounters were still a CR close to the PCs, but the individual creatures were still mostly kobolds.

Similarly, not long ago the heroes took down a fire giant artificer, and were pushed to the limit doing so. Now they discover they have upset a fire giant king, who is gunning for them. They've faced groups of fire giants, and heard the fire giants are hiring more powerful allies to help deal with the PCs. A single fire giant is the same static threat, but the situation ramps up to higher CR as the game progresses, in a natural and believable way.

And I try to keep that scale in mind as I build adventures. The heroes already know part of the big problem they want to fix is caused by the mortal avatar of a god. Right now, they aren't even thinking of facing him directly. But in another 8 levels, who knows?


I have always used a mix of both, also. There are some things that should always stay the same level, but there are always at least a few things that should grow as the PCs grow, like certain evil sentient monster races. I always loved how that worked with the orc and Uruk-Hai races in the Middle Earth Role-Playing system. They had levels too and could get just as powerful as the PCs, and there is something fun from a GM's point of view of the reactions when the PCs first meet an orc that does not die after taking 8 points of damage, nor looks even close to death.


I try to make things at least a minor challenge to the PCs. I have found that simple things like adding more guys will normally do the job if you can manage to tie up the wizard.

Scarab Sages

Characters of a certain type in the gameworld don't scale with my PCs. Guardsmen will always be the same level.

However, the PCs themselves can up the ante and deal with enemies of a greater scale as they gain in levels. The first level PCs who commit petty theft will be pursued by 1st level guardsmen. The 10th level PCs who loot the king's treasury will be pursued by the king's elite, well-paid, 10th level high guard. The assumption is that no 10th level PC would even find any sort of reward in the activities and opponents a 1st level character would - they have to pick on other 10th level characters and CR10 baddies if they ever want to get anywhere in life.

In addition, that sense of advancement and higher stakes is preserved - the players will certainly feel the effect of their level progression if, after the long hard climb to 10th level, they're dueling with dragons, generals, and kings, instead of guardsmen, orcs, and dire rats.


I also fall into the camp where the baseline of the world does not change, but as the PCs rise in level they also "cast a wider net", covering a wider geographic area with their adventures and thus are able to "cherry-pick" appropriately leveled encounters.

For years I have used the following definition for "PCs":

Those lucky few adventurers who always seem to run into situations and encounters just slightly below their own ability level.

It's the NPCs who get the unending stream of baseline encounters that offer diminishing returns in terms of XP and GP, or who walk into encounters above their level and become meals for monsters or undead for later PCs to fight.

Coincidentally, I recently wrote a "DM Musings" for my campaign which addressed this issue:

So How Come We Never Get Attacked by Bandits or a Bunch of Goblins or Stuff Like That any more?:

It's a fair question ... "Why when PCs get to higher levels do they no longer get attacked by normal bandits and highwaymen, or a band of goblins ... and why when they walk into some cave is it the lair of a medusa or dragon or something ... what ever happened to just plain old orcs ... aren't the odds of even high-level PCs walking into a cave full of low-level orcs the same as low-level PCs?"

OK ... so it's several questions but all really just one question.

How come when PCs get higher level they stop running into the low-level threats that are the most common ones in the world and that statistically they should still be facing with great frequency?

There's two answers, really. #1 ... because they're PCs, and #2 ... they still do.

In my world there are very few "full-time adventurers". Actually, even your PCs aren't "full-timers" and at earlier levels they needed "day jobs" to make a living. The problem with adventuring is that there is a limited supply of ruins to plunder, and after a while all of the past adventurers have already looted them. Thus, generations of would-be adventurers keep picking over the same, empty ruins century after century. Most "adventurers" are poor, luckless, and end their career after a few weeks or months searching a handful of "ancient ruins" simply because they no longer can afford to live and so go back to their mundane lives. In a sense, classic D&D "adventurers" really are little more than glorified grave-robbers, and some do turn to this. Or they become bandits and highwaymen.

Most, however, just quit.

Those who remain adventurers for longer periods of time tend to keep a normal job to pay the bills, and go "adventuring" with their buddies from town every few months, when they can afford to take some time off.

Finally, there are the "pros" ... the v! ery few who make enough to get by and keep getting by from month to month and so are never forced to "retire". They never hit the "big haul" but just keep moving until they stop.

Or until they get killed. Low-level adventurers and even first-timers are as likely to walk into a dragon cave as high-level ones (well, not really, since high-level ones will research where to find a dragon and seek it out, but you get my point), while high-level adventurers are as likely to walk into an orc-cave as low-level ones. So the dragon eats the low-level adventurers while the higher level ones stay poor and top-out on XP because they can't seem to find enough threats with adequate XP and treasure to get them to the next level.

Then there are PCs.

My definition of "PCs" is "Those lucky few adventurers who always seem to walk into encounters that are just marginally below their own level of power, whatever that level may be".

So by some miracle of fate and chance, PCs are the guys who always seem to be at the right (or wrong) place at the right time, unlike the aforementioned "other adventurers" who tend to show up at the right place but the wrong time (low level), just plain wrong place regardless of the time (high level), or very-wrong place at any time (low-level-turned-lunch). PCs seem to go from encounter to encounter and enemy to enemy, always facing someone just barely marginally weaker than themselves, and so their advance up the XP/Level ladder continues unabated while all the (surviving) NPCs around them grumble jealously about stumbling across "yet another abandoned orc lair."

So that's answer #1, but what about #2 ... that it still happens?

Well it does, I assume, but we usually skip it.

Granted, there are reasons that bandits and cutpurses no longer target the PCs. As successful adventurers they have reputations a! nd the l ocal crooks know not to mess with them, or they have better gear and the bandits (or wandering monsters) fear they are outclassed, or they have cohorts and the group is large enough that the average goblin tribe lacks a clear numerical advantage. There are many legitimate reasons that PCs no longer have "ordinary" encounters.

But the fact is, as far as I'm concerned, they still do. It's just that we take their near-effortless victory for granted and hand-wave it.

Unless it's relevant to the plot, we can assume that PCs searching for entrances to lost cavern complexes still disturb the dens of angry bears and lairs of bands of blood-thirsty goblinoids. However, such encounters aren't worth the time or XP to run, so we assume they happen, hand-wave them, and move on with the plot.

Now, taking a ship of low-level pirates or fending off an open-plains attack by group after group of [tribal goblinoids] might not be difficult, but these encounters are plot-relevant and give the PCs the opportunity to investigate a mystery or make contacts or find clues or learn about their new environment or whatever.

OTOH, when [two PCs currently in Extended Down-time] are traveling from [a major norther city] back to [an even larger southern one] by way of the [frontier highway] through the [foothills of a dangerous, monster-infested mountain range], passing through frontier communities while alone upon the open road, we can safely assume that they get jumped by a group of bandits. Chances are, if the travelers win initiative then the battle is over before the bandits even get to attack, and I'm not talking about shooting off fireballs, either. Sleep or various illusions can do the trick of neutralizing a threat or convincing it to leave you alone quite well.

So maybe a flock of blood-gulls (I just made that up) is a legitimate threat for a party of 3rd level adventurers in an open long-boat (or knarr), but for 6th-8th level PCs in a cog or caravel it's a nuisance that interrupts the plot. We take it for granted that every once in a while at sea a shape is seen beneath the ship and a chitinous tentacle or two flop over the rails and grab at a crew member before [the dwarven templar's] halberd hacks them off and the shape flees back into the depths now short a couple members.

It's just not worth running such things every time they still happen ... but they DO still happen.

Still, there are times when I will run those kind of encounters. The first is when they are relevant to the plot (such as gathering clues or making contacts), the second is when they offer a potential adventure hook (which you may or may not decide to take ... I've got plenty), and the third is when I'm bored and you've been fighting a lot of mean-bad-nasties lately and I just feel like shaking it up a bit and letting you go wild on an encounter that has no chance against you and I want to give you the opportunity to Mighty Cleave away and be happy in your uncontested and undoubted victory.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this for a day or two while trying to consider what encounters to throw at you after the red dragon in Rexia, and have been finding myself torn between suitable encounters for the environment and suitable encounters for your level. There are plenty of the former but not so many of the latter. Thar is a dangerous place, but then so are you.

So, expect that the more you go on adventuring in new and strange environments that I'll throw a few easy ones at you for flavor, then narrate a few more to save time, and once you as Players are familiar enough with the environment I'll just hand-wave them and we can take them for granted just like when you're back wandering around the [northern hill-country] or [the balkanized midlands].

Remember, though, that just because we don't play them out doesn't mean the bandits aren't still waiting in the bushes to ambush! that sm all party of travelers in the deep woods ... and get their asses handed to them because they are the unlucky ones who walked into a metaphorical dragon-cave.

FWIW,

Rez

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