Manyshot on nonarrow weapon


Rules Questions


i want your opinion on the legality of manyshot being applied to nonbows. the text says arrows, so can it be applied to crossbows with rapid reload? what about slings with rapid reload?(my gm allowed that) currently my gm is not allowing manyshot on slings.


vash wrote:
i want your opinion on the legality of manyshot being applied to nonbows. the text says arrows, so can it be applied to crossbows with rapid reload? what about slings with rapid reload?(my gm allowed that) currently my gm is not allowing manyshot on slings.

The text says 'bows'. By RAW, it only applies to attacks made with bows.

Scarab Sages

thinking about how you load & fire the various weapons (crossbow, slings & bows) then it would be alot quicker to load & fire a bow

bow in one hand arrow in other - so knock arrow, pull & then fire - the pull part here is what is quick

sling hold one part of strap in one hand - load bullet/stone, grab other end of strap, swing sling then fire - the loading & swinging parts is slower than pulling on bow

crossbow hold with one hand, pull string back one hand unless heavy then its two hands, aim & fire - the pulling of string is hard on crossbow making it also slower than bow to pull and fire

since rapid shot & many shot require the character to do the above many times in 1 round (6 seconds) I dont see how a character no matter how trained to perform this many times with a sling or crossbow

real world - English archers could fire many shots very quickly - how many crossbowmen could do the same - not many I would bet & these were professionally trained men

as a DM I might have allowed rapid shot with slings (even that is pushing it & player would have to be really nice to me) but I would definitely not allow many shot


slings were very fast. they were not spun. i'm not sure you've done any research on their use. and if you go by the picture, manyshot is someone nocking more than one arrow at once(this picture might have been in the 3.5 book only.)


Manyshot (Combat)

You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.

This isn't a question of fire, load, fire- Rapid Shot covers that. I think that the design of the weapon comes into play. I can imagine a double slotted crossbow and a dual or larger pouched sling.

I see no reason not to allow a player to load multiple stones into a specially designed sling or multiple bolts into a specially designed crossbow for this effect.

But that's just how I would rule it.


we had discussed it, and because slings add strength damage, it was decided that they would be limited. hence the rapid reload for sling instead of just going with the historical quick reload version.(honestly, exotic weapon proficiency would probably handle that, but they both take one feat, so whichever.) a double-pouched sling makes sense, but my gm is worried that it's too good.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
vash wrote:
we had discussed it, and because slings add strength damage, it was decided that they would be limited. hence the rapid reload for sling instead of just going with the historical quick reload version.(honestly, exotic weapon proficiency would probably handle that, but they both take one feat, so whichever.) a double-pouched sling makes sense, but my gm is worried that it's too good.

remind him that compound bows do the exact same thing.


well his argument is that everyone would use a sling since it's so cheap. im not sure that's not how it should be. but i guess he thinks people should use bows, for some reason.

as far as i can tell, slings were abandoned because they are dangerous to your allies in formation, and they are not as good at penetrating armor as arrows. d&d(pathfinder) doesn't have mechanics for armor-piercing, so it seems the lower damage is a result of that. I can deal with the lower damage, but it just seems like slings are shafted because they aren't as popular as bows.

i suggested a feat that deals double damage on the first attack, but he instead wants to make a feat that ups the damage die of slings by one and makes the threat range 18-20. that doesn't seem as good as manyshot to me, but i'm not sure of the math.


vash wrote:
i want your opinion on the legality of manyshot being applied to nonbows. the text says arrows, so can it be applied to crossbows with rapid reload? what about slings with rapid reload?(my gm allowed that) currently my gm is not allowing manyshot on slings.

By the rules it is only arrows. Also simple weapons are not designed to be really good. That is why almost everyone gets them.

The feat he is making up is not as good as manyshot, but I dont think it should be either, simply because it would not make sense to use a bow if you can get a sling to work almost as well.

Scarab Sages

vash wrote:
slings were very fast. they were not spun. i'm not sure you've done any research on their use. and if you go by the picture, manyshot is someone nocking more than one arrow at once(this picture might have been in the 3.5 book only.)

sorry but you are wrong - you need to do some research yourself

sling wiki

as for many shot being multple pulls I stand corrected

still while I agree manyshot could be done with a crossbow since it has similar mechanics to a bow - the way a sling works I dont beleive that the 2 stones loaded at once would both go in a similar enough direction to hit one target but I am just trying to see how it would go in my head I dont have an actual sling to test my theory


um, that wiki explains that a sling is just an extension of the arm. it specifically states that "another" technique is to spin the sling, but that it is less effective, because the timing is harder. if you compare its rate of fire of once every few seconds with the rate of fire of a longbow(8 arrows a minute), the sling is clearly better.

Scarab Sages

vash wrote:
um, that wiki explains that a sling is just an extension of the arm. it specifically states that "another" technique is to spin the sling, but that it is less effective, because the timing is harder. if you compare its rate of fire of once every few seconds with the rate of fire of a longbow(8 arrows a minute), the sling is clearly better.
did you miss the part where it say
wiki wrote:
then the sling is swung

??

I found through research that Longbowman could fire between 10-20 per minute thats 1 every 3 seconds


swung=/=spun.

wikipedia wrote:
There are also sideways releases, in which the swing goes around. These throws make it very easy to miss the target by releasing the projectile at a slightly wrong time.

if you're right about longbowmen, then they're fairly even on rate of fire, but longbowmen certainly wouldn't be firing more than two in a round. my point was more to show that d&d is not accurate than to specifically dig into the bow.

Dark Archive

What about using manyshot and something like throwing daggers or shuriken? I can see the physics of that working, how about the rules?


Happler wrote:
What about using manyshot and something like throwing daggers or shuriken? I can see the physics of that working, how about the rules?

Rules=only arrows. It was quoted in an earlier post by Haskul.


Actually it's funny because a player in a game I'm going to be in asked me if I thought an Alchemist could take that feat for his bombs, saying he could easily hold two bombs in one hand and throw them both. I have no idea what the DM will say but that sounds a bit much to me... especially since Manyshot is the only "archery" feat in the main book I could find that actually specifies Bows and Arrows.

Dark Archive

concerro wrote:
Happler wrote:
What about using manyshot and something like throwing daggers or shuriken? I can see the physics of that working, how about the rules?
Rules=only arrows. It was quoted in an earlier post by Haskul.

Sorry, let me re-word that.

Does anyone see anything broken about allowing thrown weapons to use manyshot?

Shadow Lodge

Not the smaller thrown weapons, like daggers or shuriken. You people throwing two(or more) of those in comics and movies, so why not in a game?


Happler wrote:
concerro wrote:
Happler wrote:
What about using manyshot and something like throwing daggers or shuriken? I can see the physics of that working, how about the rules?
Rules=only arrows. It was quoted in an earlier post by Haskul.

Sorry, let me re-word that.

Does anyone see anything broken about allowing thrown weapons to use manyshot?

No. Bows are the most powerful ranged weapon, at least in the core book, even without having exclusive access to manyshot. I have thought this was a dumb restriction since I first saw it. There isn't really a good reason for it.


I suspect that thrown weapons can't get this feat because, unlike with bows, it is possible to use the two weapon fighting mechanics with them.


The argument that I would make for limiting Manyshot to arrows (something that has always bothered me, for the record) is that the process by which a person would accomplish Manyshot (loading multiple arrows and firing simultaneously) isn't a skill that would translate to slings or thrown weapons. Just because a person is capable of accomplishing one of these feats doesn't automatically mean that he can accomplish similar feats with other weapons.

I would compare it to Weapon Focus in this instance. That is the reason that a player must pick a specific weapon instead of having WF in all weapons from one feat. Of course, there isn't an option to take Manyshot (sling), so that's where the similarity ends.

There is nothing preventing a GM from allowing Manyshot (sling), though. Or a similar "Manythrow" feat, if they so choose. There may be balance issues in these instances (such as an Alchemist throwing multiple bombs), so some playtesting is advised.


Dirlaise wrote:

The argument that I would make for limiting Manyshot to arrows (something that has always bothered me, for the record) is that the process by which a person would accomplish Manyshot (loading multiple arrows and firing simultaneously) isn't a skill that would translate to slings or thrown weapons. Just because a person is capable of accomplishing one of these feats doesn't automatically mean that he can accomplish similar feats with other weapons.

I would compare it to Weapon Focus in this instance. That is the reason that a player must pick a specific weapon instead of having WF in all weapons from one feat. Of course, there isn't an option to take Manyshot (sling), so that's where the similarity ends.

There is nothing preventing a GM from allowing Manyshot (sling), though. Or a similar "Manythrow" feat, if they so choose. There may be balance issues in these instances (such as an Alchemist throwing multiple bombs), so some playtesting is advised.

You can say the exact same thing about Rapid Shot, but that doesn't prevent the feat from working on any weapon.

As for thrown weapons getting TWF, I can understand that arguement, but that gives a -2 to the attacks. The -2 is a huge penalty, and you need annother feat, quickdraw, to even be able to full attack with them. And you have to buy 1 magical weapon for each attack, each of which must have an additional +1 equivalent enchantment for throwing if you want to use it more than once. They are so much less efficient than bows that giving them this extra free attack for a feat is hardly game breaking.


Caineach wrote:
You can say the exact same thing about Rapid Shot, but that doesn't prevent the feat from working on any weapon.

You could, but it undermines my argument. So I didn't. :)

Of course, I could respond that Rapid Shot demonstrates a certain universal quickness concerning ranged attacks, while Manyshot is a weapon-specific combat maneuver. But ultimately it comes down to arguing the points that support the argument and glossing over the points that are inconvenient.

I played a game once as a gunfighter, and as I was preparing my build I discovered all kinds of neat options that would apply to my character's weapon of choice. It was still a fantasy setting, but we were experimenting with occasional high-technology and seeing what effect it had on the game.

Something I discovered from the 3.5 rules was that I could take certain feats that would allow for pretty nifty combat options - that required Manyshot as a prerequisite. Obviously, considering that there really wasn't a good argument for being able to make my revolver fire three shots at once without extensive redesign of the weapon, it was a wasted feat.

That's my fear concerning the Manyshot argument - that it will become prerequisite for feats that will be useful with slings and crossbows without being useful for those weapons.


I personally would just say that Manyshot can be applied to any ranged weapon, however I would also house rule that Manyshot is not a blanket feat that covers all ranged weapons. You would need to take it multiple times if you wanted it to work with your sling, crossbow, and alchemist bombs.


So does anyone think Manyshot on an Alchemist's Bombs would be terribly game-breaking?

Shadow Lodge

Manyshot with bombs? So your alchemist novas in 3 rounds instead of 4?

8th level, rapid shot, many shot, iterative attack, haste, that's 5 bombs per round. Typical alchy has 13-15 bombs at 8th level...


0gre wrote:

Manyshot with bombs? So your alchemist novas in 3 rounds instead of 4?

8th level, rapid shot, many shot, iterative attack, haste, that's 5 bombs per round. Typical alchy has 13-15 bombs at 8th level...

So you're saying you think it evens out in the wash?

Shadow Lodge

Dork Lord wrote:
0gre wrote:

Manyshot with bombs? So your alchemist novas in 3 rounds instead of 4?

8th level, rapid shot, many shot, iterative attack, haste, that's 5 bombs per round. Typical alchy has 13-15 bombs at 8th level...

So you're saying you think it evens out in the wash?

Isn't a feat chain I would invest in for 3 rounds of glory.


0gre wrote:
Dork Lord wrote:
0gre wrote:

Manyshot with bombs? So your alchemist novas in 3 rounds instead of 4?

8th level, rapid shot, many shot, iterative attack, haste, that's 5 bombs per round. Typical alchy has 13-15 bombs at 8th level...

So you're saying you think it evens out in the wash?
Isn't a feat chain I would invest in for 3 rounds of glory.

What if your alchy was a Elf with a Longbow as his backup weapon :) ?

Anyway Manyshot clearly only works with bows, and arrows, and is the answer to the Leoglas style two-arrows-one-shot-look-at-me-im-awesome type of gameplay someone wanted from their Ranger way back in the day. It has nothing to do with rate of fire and everything to do with notching two arrows on your bowstring at once.

Houserule mileage may vary.

Liberty's Edge

By raw, it says 'with a bow', which could mean cross- or self-bows. But then it says arrows, which implies self-bows only.
So to whit:
1) Non-bow weapons are disqualified (though I personally see nothing wrong with allowing them to be used in conjunction with this feat and would allow it in my game)
2) The feat is clearly intended for use with self-bows and not crossbows (though again, I would definitely allow a crossbow-user to take and use the feat)
3) This is obviously an attempt from "the bow man" to keep the rest of us missile-users down.


Dork Lord wrote:
0gre wrote:

Manyshot with bombs? So your alchemist novas in 3 rounds instead of 4?

8th level, rapid shot, many shot, iterative attack, haste, that's 5 bombs per round. Typical alchy has 13-15 bombs at 8th level...

So you're saying you think it evens out in the wash?

Bombs are not ranged weapons. They are bombs which need a standard action to create. If you don't come up with something to shorten that process you can throw exactly one bomb. Even if you have iteratives due to high BAB. So no need to think about ranged feats to increase that.


what is well established is that the feat is only supposed to apply to bows.

whats left to look at?

- If you allow manyshot to apply to other ranged weapons they will definetly get a boost but still be behind bows in that they are still feat taxed with at least rapid reload if not more to get that boost. in the end they would still be behind bows on the power curve due to that alone. By the time you have all the feats you need for a sling to match the bow shot for shot and damage to damage the bow user has the money to get a compound bow with the same strength bonus but will always be ahead in both feats and effective weapon range.

- To those who have tried to compare anything about the real world to game mechanics, please stop it! The game mechanics in no way model anything close to real world physics or use of weapons. low poundage bows could get off tons of shots in six seconds. high poundage bows could not under any circumstances match those numbers. the poundage and range of a bow had very little to do with their size. slings were actually rather complex to learn but could impact with more force than a lot of bows. Crossbows were absurdly good at killing heavily armored knights. None of this matters because none of it is true in Pathfinder. Do you know what happens when you put two arrows on the bow string? they each get half the energy transfered to them from the bow and your aim is going to be off on at least one of the arrows, they will probably both fly off mark very quickly and have huge penalties to their flight range. none of these arguements come into play for this game though.


Foxy Quickpaw wrote:
Dork Lord wrote:
0gre wrote:

Manyshot with bombs? So your alchemist novas in 3 rounds instead of 4?

8th level, rapid shot, many shot, iterative attack, haste, that's 5 bombs per round. Typical alchy has 13-15 bombs at 8th level...

So you're saying you think it evens out in the wash?
Bombs are not ranged weapons. They are bombs which need a standard action to create. If you don't come up with something to shorten that process you can throw exactly one bomb. Even if you have iteratives due to high BAB. So no need to think about ranged feats to increase that.

Fast bombs is a level 8 discovery that handles that.

Fast Bombs

Prerequisite: Alchemist 8

Benefit: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.


vash wrote:
well his argument is that everyone would use a sling since it's so cheap. im not sure that's not how it should be. but i guess he thinks people should use bows, for some reason.

Once you get to the stage where Manyshot might apply (i.e. level six), the several hundred gold base cost for a composite bow is not really significant. Given the larger base damage, martial proficient characters would probably choose to use a composite bow anyway, because hey, two free damage per hit (on average).

The other thing stopping people from using a sling is the reload rules. I think it takes two feats to get a sling to the point where you're reloading as a free action (which bows do by default), unless you're a halfling with a racial trait. Martial characters don't want that because it's two feats to use a bad weapon. Non-martial characters don't want it because it's two feats spent on weapon use. Only a halfling martial character might use a sling for multiple shots, and they could have used a small size composite longbow anyway, so allowing all the archery feats to work for them shouldn't increase their power as far as I can see.

vash wrote:
i suggested a feat that deals double damage on the first attack, but he instead wants to make a feat that ups the damage die of slings by one and makes the threat range 18-20. that doesn't seem as good as manyshot to me, but i'm not sure of the math.

If you're not playing a halfling, the question is moot because the campaign will (probably) end before you have the feats to buy it.

Whether it's better depends on how many shots you've got. For a halfling martial at level 6, with Str bonus S and Dex 20, point blank shot (that I'm going to ignore for the maths), rapid shot, deadly aim, and manyshot or that feat, assuming a +1 weapon and using a bestiary average AC of 19, it's the difference between:

Composite longbow
+9(doubled)/+9/+4 D6+S+4+1 20*3 crit
=2.09*damage component (setting S=2 gives 21.9 (1dp))

Sling with manyshot
+9(doubled)/+9/+4 D3+S+4+1 20*2 crit
=2.02*damage component (setting S=2 gives 18.2 (1dp))

Sling with this feat
+9/+9/+4 D4+S+4+1 18-20*2 crit
=1.61*damage component (setting S=2 gives 15.3 (1dp))

Conclusion: manyshot should be allowed on slings, because the only people who would care to take it already have a better option in composite bows.

Happler wrote:
Does anyone see anything broken about allowing thrown weapons to use manyshot?

No. Bows also do as much or more damage than thrown weapons, so if Manyshot is OP on throwing it's OP on bows.

An alternative conclusion is that manyshot shouldn't exist.


So six years ago some people were discussing Manyshot...


Hey! I accidentally unlocked my necromancy skills! Yay me!

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