I like the errata from Jason. A couple of observations/questions:
I agree that Disable Device should be a skill, as both base classes can work with devices (if the ranger chooses trap building)
I agree the talent list is short. The rules state only one sneak attack talent can be applied at a time, but I only see one such talent.
Is combat training (select one combat feat) really meant to be a one time selection? According to the description unless otherwise noted a talent can only be selected once, and combat training doesn't say otherwise.
The assassinate talent is a bit weak, but the same was true for the assassin. As an advanced feat it can't be selected till 10th level by a slayer. With an int of 14 that means a DC of 17 (10+5+2). However, a ranger/rogue/assassin can get the equivalent at 6th level (character not class), but at 10th level (character not class) will also only have a DC 17 (10+5+2).
I compared a 2 weapon fighting 17th level assassin (3 ranger/4 rogue/10 assassin) against a 17th level slayer and while the assassin had a slightly higher average damage potential per hit if the hit was not a critical due to an extra 2d6 sneak attack, the slayer had would due more damage over all due to the superior BAB bonus especially if Quarry is applied. The increased likelihood of crating and the fact that the target and quarry bonuses would be multiplied also increase the overall damage potential of the slayer over the assassin.
One more question, if someone built a slayer/assassin would the assassinate advanced talent and death attacks stack and if so how?
I need to try building a sniper build.
What is this "errata from Jason"
See the first post. Basically, d10 HD, and some other minor bits.
Oh thought it was something new.
In other news, for the game I'm DMing I gave Slayers a combat style as per Ranger class feature to help with its feat starved nature.
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i'd like to see the Slayer Get
Trapfinding as a talent, but would prefer to give them baseline trapfinding at 1st level
6+int modifier skill points per level
and a series of combat styles akin to the ranger ones
balancing it closer to the ranger as a balance point would make it more viable than balancing it against the rogue as a balance point. i could honestly care less if the rogue expires as a class.
we have the investigator for those whom really want to play a sneak attacking skill monkey.
slayer should be a generally martially oriented class, and the 2 classes it was based from, also did a hybrid skills niche. i'd rather the slayer not suffer from being modeled to work alongside the power level of the rogue, when ranger is a better baseline.
some of us want a more martially inclined class capable of filling the rogue's role in a fashion similar to the urban ranger, but don't want to deal with the pet and the spells.
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It might be worthwhile to consider letting the Slayer study a number of Targets equal to its Intelligence bonus (minimum 1) with a single action. This is supposed to be a class that uses Int somehow right?
im always for giving the slayer more int based abilities
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It might be worthwhile to consider letting the Slayer study a number of Targets equal to its Intelligence bonus (minimum 1) with a single action. This is supposed to be a class that uses Int somehow right?
Indeed, if Slayer is an int-based martial class there should be talents and abilities that focus on higher int. There are quite a few options that could be thrown around, some have already been mentioned.
Something akin to the 3.5 Knowledge devotion was one thing that was suggested.
Adding on to that, even if we remain with favored target (which I like), starting with Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local) and a number of knowledge skills of your choice equal to your int mod (Minimum +0) as bonus class skills at level one would be an interesting option.
Slayers sound like they use what they know about their target (or what they can find out) to their advantage. If one is focused on hunting animals, with 12 int, he can add Knowledge (nature). If one is focused on hunting rogue spellcasters he can take Knowledge (Arcana). Not only does it help flesh out each individual person's character, it helps make the class more unique and shows how a slayer uses his intelligence to his advantage. Sure, he might not have the proper knowledge for every encounter. That's fine. Few characters should know everything. But when he does find something that falls under his slayer's specialty he gets a slight advantage over fighters and other classes that would rely on just beating it to death.
From there, you can add talents that use those knowledges in varying ways.
An Example:
Slayer's Spellguard(Su): A slayer may identify spells being cast by his favored targets with Knowledge (Arcana). In addition, when he has successfully identified a spell being cast by a favored target he may, as an immediate action, choose to gain a deflection bonus to AC OR a bonus to saves equal to his favorite target modifier versus that spell. A slayer may use this ability 1+int mod-times per day. This talent requires training with Knowledge (Arcana) to use.
Or something along those lines. Mostly trying to help bounce ideas around.
I'm sure a bunch of other things could be thought up that further Slayer
as an int-based class.
Going to play-testing the Slayer soon, so I'll be checking on how it feels otherwise then.
It's been mentioned before, but I don't think it's been expressly made a concern, so I'm going to make it a suggestion: call Weapon Training (the Slayer talent) something else so we don't confuse it with the Fighter's Weapon Training (the class feature). I suggest something along the lines of...uh...Weapon Focus. Because it gives you the feat Weapon Focus. Or even something like Tools of the Trade, Slayer's Scalpel, or even call it Favored Weapon.
It's been mentioned before, but I don't think it's been expressly made a concern, so I'm going to make it a suggestion: call Weapon Training (the Slayer talent) something else so we don't confuse it with the Fighter's Weapon Training (the class feature). I suggest something along the lines of...uh...Weapon Focus. Because it gives you the feat Weapon Focus. Or even something like Tools of the Trade, Slayer's Scalpel, or even call it Favored Weapon.
Meh,
Its the same as the rogue talent also called Weapon Training... doesn't cause any undue confusion there.
Shrug. I think it caused some confusion upthread, and I just had a who's on first moment in person, so just throwing it out there.
I just ran a 6th Level Playtest with my friend running the Slayer. These are more or less his thoughts.
His build was an Archer.
A move action to place Favored Target when you could otherwise full attack is really painful. In just about every situation he could have done one or the other he full attacked.
I recommend letting you place it as a Swift action by 5th. No further upgrades necessary after that. A talent that lets you switch when you drop a foe would be nice as well.
A lot of people seem to really want the slayer to be an 'Int-based class'. Does it really have to be?
I'm all for flavor and cool talents but I'd much rather have the freedom to build a Cha-based spying slayer rather than be locked in to having to prioritize Int.
If someone can work out a way for the Advanced Talent and the Capstone to not actually use a stat (and still have a reasonable chance of success), I'd be really happy with that.
A lot of people seem to really want the slayer to be an 'Int-based class'. Does it really have to be?
I'm all for flavor and cool talents but I'd much rather have the freedom to build a Cha-based spying slayer rather than be locked in to having to prioritize Int.
If someone can work out a way for the Advanced Talent and the Capstone to not actually use a stat (and still have a reasonable chance of success), I'd be really happy with that.
Honestly your better off not relying on a Save or Die. Im completely fine with the two most uninteresting abilities on the Slayer being tied to Int since that gives me absolutely no reason to raise Int.
Save or Dies are literally the most boring mechanic in the game. Either the DM lies whether or not the target saved or you instawin what could have been an interesting encounter and throw out the work someone's done on it.
Favored Target: At 1st level, once per day, the slayer can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. The slayer then gains a bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, Survival checks and attack rolls against that opponent equal to the slayers intelligence bonus (if any). The slayer treats the Favored Target as flat-footed for the purposes of the slayers sneak attack class feature.
These bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target.
At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the slayer can use this ability one additional time per day.
Maybe a Guide style targeting system?
If flat-footed is too powerful for ranged slayers, you could switch it to the flanked condition.
Favored Target: At 1st level, once per day, the slayer can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. The slayer then gains a bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, Survival checks and attack rolls against that opponent equal to the slayers intelligence bonus (if any). The slayer treats the Favored Target as flat-footed for the purposes of the slayers sneak attack class feature.
These bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target.At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the slayer can use this ability one additional time per day.
Maybe a Guide style targeting system?
If flat-footed is too powerful for ranged slayers, you could switch it to the flanked condition.
I honestly don't think its good enough like that. And I despise the Int dependency. And it has no bonus to damage.
Bonus to damage is the ability to land sneak attack with near impunity.
Bonus to damage is the ability to land sneak attack with near impunity.
You don't get sneak attack till 3rd level.
I don't think becoming Int based is the right way to take this class.
I really wouldn't want to change Favored Target aside from dropping the Swift Action change from 10th to 6th. FT is the great thing about the Slayer.
A talent like
Slayer's Enmity
Benefit: A number of times per day equal to your intelligence bonus, you may treat your current Favored Targets as flat-footed for the purposes of the Sneak Attack class feature until either the end of the encounter or your targets die.would go a long way to adding back in some of the lone wolf aspect of the class that's currently missing.
In fact add that, bring the swift action down to 6th level, throw in the Combat Style feats mentioned in the first post, and I think you could wrap a bow around the Slayer and call it done.
I think that'd be fairly solid as well.
Shrug I'm just throwing stuff at the wall in case I'm the millionth monkey and the designers hit upon something inspired by my meandering scribbling
Favored Target:At 1st level, once per day, the slayer can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. The slayer then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack rolls against it. All critical threats on the favored target are automatically confirmed. These bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the slayer’s bonuses against a studied target increase by +1.
At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the slayer can use this ability one additional time per day.
Perforate Artery: At 3rd level all critical hits scored by the slayer also add the slayers sneak attack dice to the damage result.
Shrug I'm just throwing stuff at the wall in case I'm the millionth monkey and the designers hit upon something inspired by my meandering scribbling
Favored Target:At 1st level, once per day, the slayer can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. The slayer then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack rolls against it. All critical threats on the favored target are automatically confirmed. These bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the slayer’s bonuses against a studied target increase by +1.
At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the slayer can use this ability one additional time per day.
Perforate Artery: At 3rd level all critical hits scored by the slayer also add the slayers sneak attack dice to the damage result.
See I love Pseudo Telling Blow stuff. Telling Blow was an awesome feat in 3.5 and I'd love to see an iteration of it in Pathfinder. It'd also be a stealth buff to the Rogue who could then get his Sneak Attack semi-reliably with a high crit weapon. Of course he'd get hamstrung by crit immune foes but thats okay sometimes.
Not sure about Crit threats being autoconfirmed. Maybe double the bonus on crit confirmation rolls? A little bit more balanced. I'm also down for limited use with that set up.
Maybe add the Favored target bonus again on confirmation rolls? I'm just digging for ways to add the flavour of an assassin type. One that:
A) Goes after a single target in a really scary way
and
B) Uses sneak attack some how in a way that is alarming.
Not really about making those super optimized routes, just functional. Mostly because we really haven't seen something with sneak attack that can go after one target and really shred it that is sneak attack based. I like the idea that a slayer is terrifying one-on-one but a group would knock one around really fast. Glass-canon style. Rogues don't fulfill this because they can't really threaten people on the second round of combat by themselves reliably.
Maybe add the Favored target bonus again on confirmation rolls? I'm just digging for ways to add the flavour of an assassin type. One that:
A) Goes after a single target in a really scary way
and
B) Uses sneak attack some how in a way that is alarming.
Not really about making those super optimized routes, just functional. Mostly because we really haven't seen something with sneak attack that can go after one target and really shred it that is sneak attack based. I like the idea that a slayer is terrifying one-on-one but a group would knock one around really fast. Glass-canon style. Rogues don't fulfill this because they can't really threaten people on the second round of combat by themselves reliably.
Maybe an Advanced Talent that if your target doesn't have an ally within 10ft, you can deal an additional 1 point of Con Bleed with your Sneak Attack.
Then you slink away to watch them die.
So question for people. Do you feel that the slayer or the ranger would work better as a slaver? Working on a build and I'm trying to decide which one is better at hunting down targets for capture and sale.
Do you have a specific target in mind? Then go Ranger, spells and Favored Enemies trump Favored Target in that regard.
If you tend to wrangle whatever you can get your hands on, a Sap Master Slayer might not be too shabby.
So question for people. Do you feel that the slayer or the ranger would work better as a slaver? Working on a build and I'm trying to decide which one is better at hunting down targets for capture and sale.
I think the ranger does it better. He is good enough in combat, and he had more skills, spells, and a pet.
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So question for people. Do you feel that the slayer or the ranger would work better as a slaver? Working on a build and I'm trying to decide which one is better at hunting down targets for capture and sale.Do you have a specific target in mind? Then go Ranger, spells and Favored Enemies trump Favored Target in that regard.
If you tend to wrangle whatever you can get your hands on, a Sap Master Slayer might not be too shabby.
The plan is to build it as a Gnoll tribe leader that I can use as a leader for a random encounter of gnolls.
what was put in the OP of this thread.
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
The following official updates apply to the Slayer.
• The Hit Dice should be 1d10 per level.
• Disregard the first sneak attack paragraph. Use the second Sneak Attack entry. The slayer gets 1d6 sneak attack at 3rd, and an additional 1d6 at every 3 levels thereafter (the table is correct).
• Quarry refers to favored enemy, but should refer to a favored target.
• We are considering adding Bluff as a class skill, as it likely was an oversight.
• We will be adding more slayer talents (a potential suggestion is a talent allowing the selection of a ranger combat style feat).'/quote]
?
+1
This class looks really good.
Bonus to damage is the ability to land sneak attack with near impunity.You don't get sneak attack till 3rd level.
I don't think becoming Int based is the right way to take this class.
I think it should be DEX based. It's all in the reflexes....
I think it should be DEX based. It's all in the reflexes....Bonus to damage is the ability to land sneak attack with near impunity.You don't get sneak attack till 3rd level.
I don't think becoming Int based is the right way to take this class.
I wouldn't want to step on the Swashbuckler's toes which is shooting for that goal.
I'd like Slayers to have good options for Strength and Dex then maybe talent support for int crazy builds.
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Well, I'm going to use a 12th level slayer NPC in my campaign next week to see how well he fares against 9th-10th level PCs. The original concept was fighter/ranger, but once the playtest document became available, I decided to try the new rules.
I have to say, though, that I don't think the slayer -- as it is now -- brings anything new to the table. A ranger/rogue, or fighter/rogue, can do pretty much anything the slayer can, and even more. Not to mention that I can customize him with talents and archetypes. His favored target ability is useful after 10th level, but it's a static bonus to attack and damage. How about some nasty effects that can be applied to his favored target, or even replacing the static bonus with +xd6, sort of like inquisitor's bane/greater bane? And how about letting the slayer pick fighter-only feats like magus does?
As Jason already commented, there will be more slayer talents, so I'm not going to whine about the lack of useful combat talents.
I'll post how it went, but I'm not holding my breath; IMO the slayer is pretty one-dimensional now.
I'm still wondering why not allow access to all rogue talents, then add a few slayer-specific ones? Then the rogue can get a 'slayer's Skill' rogue trick like with the ninja.
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I'm still wondering why not allow access to all rogue talents, then add a few slayer-specific ones? Then the rogue can get a 'slayer's Skill' rogue trick like with the ninja.
Because it makes actual rogues really sad when you allow yet another class to choose any rogue talent.
Well, I'm going to use a 12th level slayer NPC in my campaign next week to see how well he fares against 9th-10th level PCs. The original concept was fighter/ranger, but once the playtest document became available, I decided to try the new rules.
I have to say, though, that I don't think the slayer -- as it is now -- brings anything new to the table. A ranger/rogue, or fighter/rogue, can do pretty much anything the slayer can, and even more. Not to mention that I can customize him with talents and archetypes. His favored target ability is useful after 10th level, but it's a static bonus to attack and damage. How about some nasty effects that can be applied to his favored target, or even replacing the static bonus with +xd6, sort of like inquisitor's bane/greater bane? And how about letting the slayer pick fighter-only feats like magus does?
As Jason already commented, there will be more slayer talents, so I'm not going to whine about the lack of useful combat talents.
I'll post how it went, but I'm not holding my breath; IMO the slayer is pretty one-dimensional now.
The problem with both those multiclasses is that they both sacrifice BAB in exchange. A full BAB is a handy weapon indeed. Though if you build the Ranger with favored enemies for that party then it fairly handily wins. Humorously I just did the math and if you build it to have the same Sneak Attack as a 12th level Slayer would and spend the rest in another class you'd get Ranger 5/Rogue 7 and if hes fighting his favored enemies he gets a +14/+9 just below the Slayer's +15/+10 though the Ranger doesn't need to spend actions to switch. But! The Slayer gets 1 more attack. Ranger gets a combat style though =(
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I'm still wondering why not allow access to all rogue talents, then add a few slayer-specific ones? Then the rogue can get a 'slayer's Skill' rogue trick like with the ninja.Because it makes actual rogues really sad when you allow yet another class to choose any rogue talent.
if we have so many classes that can select rogue talents
it wouldn't be a bad precedent for allowing a rogue alternative to select rogue talents with similar open access.
i mean slayer, investigator, and swashbuckler are clearly different types of rogue fixes? right?
you could compensate by letting the rogue pick slayer and investigator "talents"
why should we cater to the niche protection of a class that has been archaic for 3 iterations of the game, 2 of which, the prior designers designed 5 substitutes for
3.5 had the beguiler from PHB2, the factotutom from dungeonscape, and the ninja, spellthief and scout from complete adventurer. which were all essentially rogue replacements that already had plenty of overlap.
is another trapfinding, sneak attacking class with rogue talents really going to be any different than what paizo's own designers did with archetypes for the Alchemist. Bard. Oracle, Sorcerer, and Ranger?
What niche do you feel is being protected that would be threatened by access to rogue talents? Trapfinding is obviously the niche protection, and giving access to the talent list won't change or fix that. Also, when he says yet another class that can select rogue talents, I think the implication is that it's a bad thing. Doing a bad thing one more time is still bad.
More to the point, what talents do you want out of the Rogue list? It's overwhelmingly skill monkey stuff. It's also mostly either bad or nonsynergistic with Slayer stuff.
If there are thematic or useful talents on the Rogue list, instead of lobbying for full Slayer access and trading Rogues access back, just suggest Slayers get those talents. Unless I'm missing something. Having mutually accessible lists of talents just waters down the distinctiveness of both classes, and increases the chance that one class ends up being seen as the better choice for their shared role.
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What niche do you feel is being protected that would be threatened by access to rogue talents? Trapfinding is obviously the niche protection, and giving access to the talent list won't change or fix that. Also, when he says yet another class that can select rogue talents, I think the implication is that it's a bad thing. Doing a bad thing one more time is still bad.
More to the point, what talents do you want out of the Rogue list? It's overwhelmingly skill monkey stuff. It's also mostly either bad or nonsynergistic with Slayer stuff.
If there are thematic or useful talents on the Rogue list, instead of lobbying for full Slayer access and trading Rogues access back, just suggest Slayers get those talents. Unless I'm missing something. Having mutually accessible lists of talents just waters down the distinctiveness of both classes, and increases the chance that one class ends up being seen as the better choice for their shared role.
access to trapfinding and trap spotter, so we don't need a rogue to deal with traps
access to the wall climber rogue talent
access to crippling strike advanced talent
access to bleeding attack and the slow reactions rogue talents as well as other sneak attack altering talents
What do people feel of this reworking of Favored Target? I'm trying to take into consideration previous comments from actual playtesting. I've also tried to mesh flavor with rules.
Favored Target (Ex): At 1st level, a slayer studies all nearby as possible opponents, studying their weaknesses and behaviors. Provided the slayer had at least one previous round with line of sight of the opponent, as part of an attack action the slayer can designate that opponent as a favored target. If the slayer did not have one round with line of sight of the opponent, he must spend a move action to do so.
The slayer then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. These bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target.
Within combat the slayer may lose this connection to a studied target as a free action, allowing him to study another target in its place as a move action. If the previous favored target was knocked unconscious or killed, the new target can be designated as part of an attack action dependent upon one round previous time allowed for awareness of the new target.
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the slayer’s bonuses against a studied target increase by +1. In addition, at each such interval, the slayer is able to maintain these bonuses against an additional studied target at the same time. At 7th level, the slayer can study a single new opponent as a swift action instead of a move action. At 13th level, a slayer can choose any number of new favored targets as a swift action.
Wall climbing doesn't feel very Slayery. Trapfinding isn't a rogue talent but a class feature, so access to rogue talents wouldn't help there at all. It's been mentioned as a possible talent, so there's no reason Trap Spotter couldn't also be put on the list (with Trapfinding as an obvious prereq).
As for the rest, they all alter sneak attack and are obvious choices to put on the Slayer list. I'm having a hard time understanding how a desire to give the Slayer access to more Sneak Attack altering talents and the barest of trapfinding feats justifies throwing open the entire list. It's a hybrid class, it's okay if talents appear twice, like Combat Trick or Weapon Training.
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Wall climbing doesn't feel very Slayery. Trapfinding isn't a rogue talent but a class feature, so access to rogue talents wouldn't help there at all. It's been mentioned as a possible talent, so there's no reason Trap Spotter couldn't also be put on the list (with Trapfinding as an obvious prereq).
As for the rest, they all alter sneak attack and are obvious choices to put on the Slayer list. I'm having a hard time understanding how a desire to give the Slayer access to more Sneak Attack altering talents and the barest of trapfinding feats justifies throwing open the entire list. It's a hybrid class, it's okay if talents appear twice, like Combat Trick or Weapon Training.
Actually wall climbing up through a second story window to slay a sleeping target sounds perfect for the Slayer :3
I think the slayer should be able to taste, at most, one free choice rogue talent. However, my preference would be for the slayer to remain more ranger-y. Since the slayer is a non-caster, the ranger doesn't care as much. I would like to see the slayer get access to the bulk of the sneak attack talents, as slayer talents, as that seems like the thing they would excel at. I'd also like to see the slayer get access to Disruptive and Spellbreaker.
Just read the blogpost detailing the direction of the playtest after 1 week feedback and possible revisions.
As I commented there:.
* I'm currently playing a Slayer in a PbP, and although only a little way in I definitely agree the Slayer should have 6 skill points/level to make the most use of the full range of Favored Target buffs/capabilities. I'm playing a very melee-heavy, non-social type, but even still, at 20 point buy it's hard rounding out the skill capabilities.
* Also, I hope this hasn't been brought up already on this thread (nor shot down!) but how about opening up Combat feats for Slayer Talents? Ok, so they are the domain of the fighter, but still - is the Slayer a combat oriented killer or what? ;)