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Unslain or not, did Ostog ever put on a shirt?

Liberty's Edge

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Do any/many Golarion deities have alternate names? As in, not titles like "the Radiant One", but different actual personal names? Like FR's Chauntea is known in some regions as Bhalla, for example. Or do Golarion deities have only a single name that they are known under, regardless of Varisia, Minkai, Vudra or Mwangi?

How about being seen as different genders? Other than the obvious ones like Gozreh who have a prevalent duality. Is Iomedae worshipped as a male in some other lands? Is there a male god of death and rebirth worshipped in some land?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Ian Bell wrote:
Unslain or not, did Ostog ever put on a shirt?

He never put on armor. He might have worn a shirt, but it was probably an accident.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Samy wrote:

Do any/many Golarion deities have alternate names? As in, not titles like "the Radiant One", but different actual personal names? Like FR's Chauntea is known in some regions as Bhalla, for example. Or do Golarion deities have only a single name that they are known under, regardless of Varisia, Minkai, Vudra or Mwangi?

How about being seen as different genders? Other than the obvious ones like Gozreh who have a prevalent duality. Is Iomedae worshipped as a male in some other lands? Is there a male god of death and rebirth worshipped in some land?

Nope; their names are their names. Desna is still called Desna in Tian-Xia, in other words. They're also not seen as different genders, generally speaking, unless the deity is gender fluid. They ARE depicted as different races/ethnicities now and then though.

Liberty's Edge

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Have you ever wanted to go back and rename a deity? Not been completely happy about some deity's name?

How about any significant NPCs? Wanted to rename any?


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James Jacobs wrote:
xavier c wrote:

If someone were to use extremely powerful reality warping magic to permanently and truly create a extremely massive Demiplane. the reality warping magic also created a highly advanced civilization with a population in the billions on the Demiplane (at the same time as the Demiplane was being created)(It should also be noted the that from the populations point of view they have existed for thousands years)(the population is also truly mortal and have souls).

Now the thing is this population worships Iomedae. every man, woman and child is devoted to Iomedae and from there point of view they have always worshiped Iomedae.

Now Iomedae did not know what was going on or this was going to happen.

1)How does Iomedae react to suddenly having billions worshipers out of nowhere?

2)How would Sarenrae react this situation?

3)would this benefit Iomedae in any way?

4)what if a demigod where in this situation would they be able to handle it?

That type of effect is generally beyond the power of most mortals, and is edging into divine power... but assuming that wasn't the case, how Iomedae would react would likely be to welcome those worshipers into her church. Sarenrae probably would appreciate the fact that "team good" just got a nice big shot in the arm. It's unclear how it would benefit Iomedae, since the demiplane is self-contained and we haven't set up rules for what gods do with devotional energy or even if it matters to them. And yes, part of being a demigod is being able to handle worshipers.

But frankly... this hypothetical situation is super unusual and outlandish, so really... you could use it as a trigger for ANY story you wanted to tell.

As for the benefiting Iomedae part would something like this increase the amount souls that go to her planar realm? and in doing so increase the size of her realm and give her more outsider minions?


James Jacobs wrote:
xavier c wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
xavier c wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Lava Child wrote:

Congratulations on Finishing your Shadows Under Sandpoint Campaign! I hope it ended with a bang, and that you accomplished all that you wished too! So. . . what's next?

It did indeed end in a bang! Three minor deities exiled/killed, one Bulmahn soul trapped, and lots of close calls ending, ultimately, in PC triumph!!!

Next in the Thursday night slot is "Horror on the Orient Express," with the same group but adding Jessica Price to the mix.

Who were the deities?
Chons, Tefnut, and Ra. Osiris would have been hit too but Bulmahn's character sacrificed himself to save Osiris. Which was nice of him.

What type of game were you guys playing where you can kill deities? epic?

and why was Ra being mean?

were the PCs Evil?

The PCs were 17th level and tier 2 mythic characters who had, during the course of the 2nd half of this campaign, come to the attention of some of the gods of ancient Osirion. The PCs were facing off against a powerful ancient cleric of Rovagug, one who was attempting to come back to life, and who in life slaughtered and oppressed the worshipers of the ancient Osirion pantheon, and so all of those deities had an interest in seeing this guy, Rahotep, NOT come back. And the PCs in this campaign were their chosen swords against Rahotep.

So, each PC was more or less "adopted" by one of the ancient Osirion deities, and the PCs managed not to piss those deities off and in fact managed to stay in their good graces to the final encounter, where Rahotep rose up as a 20th level cleric tier 10 mythic lich. At the same time, two of Rovagug's tentacles extended out of the Dead Vault and into the chamber where the final battle was taking place. At the start of each round, each tentacale randomly attacked one PC. A PC at full hit points, when hit, got reduced to 1 hp/level. A PC who has ANY damage at all who gets hit instead takes...

Rovagug is OP! I am surprised Ra got kill as he is the one that created the other Osirion deities. you think he be powerful enough to survive a hit from Rovagug.

What was the class and mythic path of each PC?

Silver Crusade

James Jacobs wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Question! How far have you gotten in Bloodborne now? My apologies for constantly asking this but I'd really like to see what you think about the lore and setting :3

Still loving the game from top to bottom.

** spoiler omitted **

Yay!

Spoiler:
Well in that case I'm sure you saw the statues in the Grand Cathedral leading to the Vicar Amelia fight. What do you think about that and the Healing Church as opposed to other churches with "dark secrets" in other media? Namely since the healing Church doesn't really seem to be all that secretive about what it is worshipping.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Samy wrote:

Have you ever wanted to go back and rename a deity? Not been completely happy about some deity's name?

How about any significant NPCs? Wanted to rename any?

Yes, and I've done so with Pathfinder. Pharasma is called Turthonir in my homebrew, for example. Pharasma's a MUCH better name. I believe Sutter came up with that one.

There's a few NPCs I'd like to rename, but they're in print now and that's that. As an example, I wish I didn't use "Staunton Vhane" twice.

I also used the name Kazavon twice, accidentally, and DID get to fix that when I redid Rise of the Runelords.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

xavier c wrote:
As for the benefiting Iomedae part would something like this increase the amount souls that go to her planar realm? and in doing so increase the size of her realm and give her more outsider minions?

Well... obviously, if you increase the amount of worshipers, regardless of how you do so, you increase the amount of souls that end up in a deity's realm.

What that does for the deity is undefined and will remain so.

Liberty's Edge

Can't you just change the name in your homebrew since there aren't any books you have to adhere to or anything?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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xavier c wrote:

Rovagug is OP! I am surprised Ra got kill as he is the one that created the other Osirion deities. you think he be powerful enough to survive a hit from Rovagug.

What was the class and mythic path of each PC?

Ra is a chump. And remember, in order to seal up Rovagug, you had to have an entire pantheon of deities work together. Sarenrae and Asmodeus had to WORK TOGETHER. If anyone's going to be able to one shot a deity, and if anyone would be someone other deities would thus want locked away... of course it'd be Rovagug.

As for the characters... I may have gotten their mythic paths wrong but I believe they went with...

Wes: Bard 17, Trickster 2
Tim: Paladin 17, Guardian 2
Rob: Gunslinger 17, Champion 2
Erik: Barbarian 17, Champion 2
Jason: Sorcerer 17, Archmage 2

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Rysky wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Question! How far have you gotten in Bloodborne now? My apologies for constantly asking this but I'd really like to see what you think about the lore and setting :3

Still loving the game from top to bottom.

** spoiler omitted **

Yay!

** spoiler omitted **

Hmm. I need to go back and look at those statues I guess.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Samy wrote:
Can't you just change the name in your homebrew since there aren't any books you have to adhere to or anything?

If I ever do anything with my homebrew again in the future... I'll make the decision then. But that said... Turthonir is lawful neutral. Pharasma has evolved into a quite different deity.

That said, yeah, there's not any "books to adhere to or anything," but my homebrew has decades of history behind it as opposed to Golarion having less than one decade. To me, my homebrew has a LOT more inertia and tradition and nostalgia than Golarion will EVER have, because I've been building my homebrew since 1985 or thereabouts. And since I don't intend to ever publish my homebrew, because too much of it has already been published as parts of Golarion, no, I wouldn't change the names. Because I have to adhere to 30 years of writing and work and tradition and nostalgia. The fact that some of that stuff hasn't been published doesn't change anything from my viewpoint.

Liberty's Edge

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Makes sense, thank you for the answers.

Silver Crusade

James Jacobs wrote:
Rysky wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Question! How far have you gotten in Bloodborne now? My apologies for constantly asking this but I'd really like to see what you think about the lore and setting :3

Still loving the game from top to bottom.

** spoiler omitted **

Yay!

** spoiler omitted **

Hmm. I need to go back and look at those statues I guess.

You really should :3


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Of the core 20 gods can you list the most to lest powerful gods from 1 to 20(In your opinion)


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I asked you something like this before but i will ask anyway

1)currently how large do you think Iomedae's realm is(sense she is so young of a deity)

2)When you think of Iomedae's realm what are the biomes and geography like?.Are there savannas, Temperate coniferous forest, Tropical forest, swamps, deserts stuff like that?

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

James, have any games you are going to play tomorrow on International Tabletop Day? I recently discovered Dixit and have been enjoying it immensely.

Scarab Sages

James Jacobs,

I really have only one question for you....

Paizo Employee Creative Director

xavier c wrote:
Of the core 20 gods can you list the most to lest powerful gods from 1 to 20(In your opinion)

Nope. I cannot. Because that then does one of the very things I never ever want to do; quantify the deities on a power scale. Sorry.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

xavier c wrote:

I asked you something like this before but i will ask anyway

1)currently how large do you think Iomedae's realm is(sense she is so young of a deity)

2)When you think of Iomedae's realm what are the biomes and geography like?.Are there savannas, Temperate coniferous forest, Tropical forest, swamps, deserts stuff like that?

Still haven't decided any of these. That's significant design work I'm not comfortable doing here on the forums; sorry!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
James, have any games you are going to play tomorrow on International Tabletop Day? I recently discovered Dixit and have been enjoying it immensely.

Nope. I might end up playing a game anyway, I guess, but no plans at the moment in particular.


How do you feel about the old porcine orcs? Also, do you know anything about why they were pigs and why they stopped being pigs?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Albatoonoe wrote:
How do you feel about the old porcine orcs? Also, do you know anything about why they were pigs and why they stopped being pigs?

Not a fan, really. I prefer them as they are now. They stopped being pigfolk at around 3rd edition, I believe. My guess is because the designers wanted them to look more interesting. I feel that they succeeded.


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- Do you have any plans for elaborating on the religions of Ninshabur? Would it draw on Mesopotamian deities like Osirion with Egyptian?
- With many current fiends named from that mythology, would it make sense there was a lot of fiend worship in Ninshabur?
- What about the Mythos deities, where some stories attempt to link them to Sumerian mythology? Were they notably worshipped in Ninshabur as well?

Scarab Sages

James,

Have you ever had mead? If so, did you like it?

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

James Jacobs wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:
How do you feel about the old porcine orcs? Also, do you know anything about why they were pigs and why they stopped being pigs?
Not a fan, really. I prefer them as they are now. They stopped being pigfolk at around 3rd edition, I believe. My guess is because the designers wanted them to look more interesting. I feel that they succeeded.

But do they still have that great bacon taste?

More seriously, are there any societies on Golarion that consume only meat that comes from intelligent races (besides the other food groups of course, have to maintain a balanced diet), but not their own?

Dark Archive

Hi was wondering if you could offer a suggestion or two.

Was thinking of converting Age of worms to pathfinder and was going to update Kyuss would giveing him mythic ranks and class lvl's work best or would it be better making him his own unique creature.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Analysis wrote:

- Do you have any plans for elaborating on the religions of Ninshabur? Would it draw on Mesopotamian deities like Osirion with Egyptian?

- With many current fiends named from that mythology, would it make sense there was a lot of fiend worship in Ninshabur?
- What about the Mythos deities, where some stories attempt to link them to Sumerian mythology? Were they notably worshipped in Ninshabur as well?

No plans at this time, but it would indeed be inspired by that region.

Yes.

Yes.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aberzombie wrote:

James,

Have you ever had mead? If so, did you like it?

Yes. And yes... but not all brands are created equal.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:
How do you feel about the old porcine orcs? Also, do you know anything about why they were pigs and why they stopped being pigs?
Not a fan, really. I prefer them as they are now. They stopped being pigfolk at around 3rd edition, I believe. My guess is because the designers wanted them to look more interesting. I feel that they succeeded.

But do they still have that great bacon taste?

More seriously, are there any societies on Golarion that consume only meat that comes from intelligent races (besides the other food groups of course, have to maintain a balanced diet), but not their own?

eew... no. I suspect orc is gritty and foul tasting, like I'd imagine sewer rat that's 3 days past its prime tastes after you'd left it in the driveway for the bugs and dirt and then "cooked" it by leaving it on a soiled tissue sitting on the dashboard of a run-down car parked in a hot, humid alley in a polluted city over the course of a long hot and muggy summer afternoon.

I'm sure there are, but none come immediately to mind. Maybe the lizardfolk of Droon.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Kevin Mack wrote:

Hi was wondering if you could offer a suggestion or two.

Was thinking of converting Age of worms to pathfinder and was going to update Kyuss would giveing him mythic ranks and class lvl's work best or would it be better making him his own unique creature.

I wouldn't go the mythic route if I were updating Age of Worms. I'd just stat up Kyuss as a unique outsider at whatever CR seemed appropriate, in the same way I custom built things like Treerazer or Pazuzu or the like.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Do you have a world map for your homebrew campaign?
Is it hand drawn or did you (or someone else) whip up a fancy version (up to print quality)?
How similar is the gross geography (shape & number of continents) is it to Golarion?
Would you be willing to post said map on the interwebs?

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Let me start by pre-emptively apologizing for the long and potentially aggravating question regarding mythic stuff.

You've mentioned before that merely being mythic and taking the Divine Source mythic ability three times isn't enough for a character to ascend to proper godhood, that such a character is a quasideity, effectively, and that at that point they could "graduate" to true demigodhood via the Test of the Starstone. Are there alternatives to using the Test as the means by which a quasideity is welcomed by the gods as a junior member of the pantheon? I know deities like Kurgess and Hanspur were granted their divinity by sponsors among the Big 20. Is this something that'd work for mythic PCs as well? I'm aware a lot of this is subject to individual GM approval, but I was just sort of wondering if you guys sort of meant for the Starstone to be THE method any PC uses to join the ranks of the gods or if the only real requirement was that, once you're at the peak of mythic power and can grant spells all the way up to 9th for your faithful, you had to find some way to take the final step, Starstone just being one option out of several?


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What is a Assistant Developer?

Grand Lodge

Does Breath of Life revive you from non-Death save or die spells? (ex. prismatic spray #4 or phantasmal killer)

If so, how?

I've looked around but found a lot of controversy and couldn't find a conclusive statement on it.

Scarab Sages

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While I do have one idea for this myself, how would you be inclined to envision a Chaotic Good Groetus-worshipper, and are there any noteworthy such individuals in Golarion's history/present?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Kroama wrote:

Does Breath of Life revive you from non-Death save or die spells? (ex. prismatic spray #4 or phantasmal killer)

If so, how?

I've looked around but found a lot of controversy and couldn't find a conclusive statement on it.

I too am curious what you think on this. I just let my players breath of life their cohorts after a weird, and I was uncertain where to heal them "from". What would you have done?

Thank you! :)


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Hey James! I'm in a campaign right now where I've been trying to introduce Daikitsu as a more active deity. However, I've been having some problems coming up with ideas for a few reasons and was wondering what your thoughts on the subject were.

1. Diakitsu seems to be mostly a Diety for farmers, family, and craftsman. Nature as well. In what circumstances would she aid or be interested in an adventuring party? Maybe when they are protecting a village or something?

2. Daikitsu is a Kitsune, and her primary worshipers are kitsune. However, she seems to have very little in common with them aside from the whole 'mother of the race' thing. Sure, kitsune are loyal and have interests in craftsmanship, but they seem to primarily be known as enchanters and tricksters. Why do they seem so different from Daikitsu?

I know that Daikitsu is essentially a re-flavored version of the Japanese god Inari and that is why she has her domains, but I am just trying to figure out why she seems so different from her race in the context of Golarion and what it means for them.

3. If Daikitsu worship were to spread into the Inner Sea region, do you think it would change in any way or run into any barriers? I know that Gozrah is very similar, but s/he seems to have little direct interest in *people* the way Daikitsu does, so it seems like farmers and communities would find Daikitsu to be an easier god to relate to.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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j b 200 wrote:

Do you have a world map for your homebrew campaign?

Is it hand drawn or did you (or someone else) whip up a fancy version (up to print quality)?
How similar is the gross geography (shape & number of continents) is it to Golarion?
Would you be willing to post said map on the interwebs?

I've gone through several different iterations of my homebrew's world map. The first few were hand drawn, and the last few were done via Campaign Cartographer. All by me. It's not similar at all to Golarion in shape, but a lot of the names are the same... if used for different regions. Sekamina and Orv are mountainous regions on the surface, for example, while Goka is the largest city on the continent. Mediogalti remains a tropicial isle inhabited by the Red Mantis, but Korvosa is a huge capital city of the largest nation.

As for posting maps... already did to my blog that I never update these days.

Here's a link to the map post, including a hand-drawn map from college and a Campaign Cartographer one I did after moving up to Seattle.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

xavier c wrote:
What is a Assistant Developer?

Exactly what it sounds like. A more junior tier position of developer. Someone who helps develop products but won't be ordering books of their own or championing a book line. They do a wide range of design, editing, and rewriting of freelancer turnovers.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Let me start by pre-emptively apologizing for the long and potentially aggravating question regarding mythic stuff.

You've mentioned before that merely being mythic and taking the Divine Source mythic ability three times isn't enough for a character to ascend to proper godhood, that such a character is a quasideity, effectively, and that at that point they could "graduate" to true demigodhood via the Test of the Starstone. Are there alternatives to using the Test as the means by which a quasideity is welcomed by the gods as a junior member of the pantheon? I know deities like Kurgess and Hanspur were granted their divinity by sponsors among the Big 20. Is this something that'd work for mythic PCs as well? I'm aware a lot of this is subject to individual GM approval, but I was just sort of wondering if you guys sort of meant for the Starstone to be THE method any PC uses to join the ranks of the gods or if the only real requirement was that, once you're at the peak of mythic power and can grant spells all the way up to 9th for your faithful, you had to find some way to take the final step, Starstone just being one option out of several?

That kind of ascension to divinity is best handled by ad-hoc GM fiat, not by any sort of predetermined rules set. AKA: it can happen at any time, to any one the GM wants. No need for any special rules at all.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kroama wrote:

Does Breath of Life revive you from non-Death save or die spells? (ex. prismatic spray #4 or phantasmal killer)

If so, how?

I've looked around but found a lot of controversy and couldn't find a conclusive statement on it.

Rules question should be asked on rules forum for an FAQ.

My take, though? Yes, it can. Death sucks enough already.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
While I do have one idea for this myself, how would you be inclined to envision a Chaotic Good Groetus-worshipper, and are there any noteworthy such individuals in Golarion's history/present?

I wouldn't, and there are not.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
Kroama wrote:

Does Breath of Life revive you from non-Death save or die spells? (ex. prismatic spray #4 or phantasmal killer)

If so, how?

I've looked around but found a lot of controversy and couldn't find a conclusive statement on it.

I too am curious what you think on this. I just let my players breath of life their cohorts after a weird, and I was uncertain where to heal them "from". What would you have done?

Thank you! :)

Something like phantasmal killer or weird kills you by essentially reducing you to -CON hit points. Breath of life restores you to life by adding hp even if you're at or lower than –CON. In fact, it's easier to restore someone reduced to exactly –CON via a spell than it is someone who's been reduced far below that total by plain old damage.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Matrix Dragon wrote:

Hey James! I'm in a campaign right now where I've been trying to introduce Daikitsu as a more active deity. However, I've been having some problems coming up with ideas for a few reasons and was wondering what your thoughts on the subject were.

1. Diakitsu seems to be mostly a Diety for farmers, family, and craftsman. Nature as well. In what circumstances would she aid or be interested in an adventuring party? Maybe when they are protecting a village or something?

2. Daikitsu is a Kitsune, and her primary worshipers are kitsune. However, she seems to have very little in common with them aside from the whole 'mother of the race' thing. Sure, kitsune are loyal and have interests in craftsmanship, but they seem to primarily be known as enchanters and tricksters. Why do they seem so different from Daikitsu?

I know that Daikitsu is essentially a re-flavored version of the Japanese god Inari and that is why she has her domains, but I am just trying to figure out why she seems so different from her race in the context of Golarion and what it means for them.

3. If Daikitsu worship were to spread into the Inner Sea region, do you think it would change in any way or run into any barriers? I know that Gozrah is very similar, but s/he seems to have little direct interest in *people* the way Daikitsu does, so it seems like farmers and communities would find Daikitsu to be an easier god to relate to.

1) Yup; an adventuring party that comes along to help a rural area.

2) Because her popularity has expanded beyond her original role as a patron deity, I suppose, but also because we simply haven't written much more about either.

3) It would probably change, yes, because the Inner Sea is a different culture.

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Let me start by pre-emptively apologizing for the long and potentially aggravating question regarding mythic stuff.

You've mentioned before that merely being mythic and taking the Divine Source mythic ability three times isn't enough for a character to ascend to proper godhood, that such a character is a quasideity, effectively, and that at that point they could "graduate" to true demigodhood via the Test of the Starstone. Are there alternatives to using the Test as the means by which a quasideity is welcomed by the gods as a junior member of the pantheon? I know deities like Kurgess and Hanspur were granted their divinity by sponsors among the Big 20. Is this something that'd work for mythic PCs as well? I'm aware a lot of this is subject to individual GM approval, but I was just sort of wondering if you guys sort of meant for the Starstone to be THE method any PC uses to join the ranks of the gods or if the only real requirement was that, once you're at the peak of mythic power and can grant spells all the way up to 9th for your faithful, you had to find some way to take the final step, Starstone just being one option out of several?

That kind of ascension to divinity is best handled by ad-hoc GM fiat, not by any sort of predetermined rules set. AKA: it can happen at any time, to any one the GM wants. No need for any special rules at all.

I understand that, I meant more from a storytelling standpoint. Since the character I'm asking for is a Wrath of the Righteous character hoping to rebuild Sarkoris, I don't really know if him making a detour to Absalom for the Test of the Starstone makes a whole lotta sense, you know?

Scarab Sages

James Jacobs wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
While I do have one idea for this myself, how would you be inclined to envision a Chaotic Good Groetus-worshipper, and are there any noteworthy such individuals in Golarion's history/present?
I wouldn't, and there are not.

The latter part of that answer doesn't surprise me too much, but the first part kind of does, given that Groetus-worshippers CAN be Chaotic Good...which I always thought was awesome.


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OK, so I have a genealogical question.

(Note: I'm addicted to genealogies.)

Recently (kinda) you gave us the name of Tsuto's father. Given that I brought her into my Jade Regent game, can you tell us who Amaya's mother is? I don't have CoT, and I cannot find anything on the boards about her. Possibly, it's just that my search-fu is weak...

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