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Odraude wrote:

Lycanthropy is very weird to me. In the Core Rules, it has Werewolf Lycanthropy listed as a curse, but in the bestiary it's a disease. So admittedly, which one is it? Can we use Remove Curse and Remove Disease?

Also, can only Clerics get rid of it? Or can you spread it to Oracles and Druids?

And why does a Cleric have to be level 12 to cast it? The DC of the Curse/Disease of Werewolf Lycanthropy is only 15 so I can't imagine a Cleric of a lower level having an issue getting rid of it.

Lycanthropy is a curse and a disease... but the methods to get rid of it are pretty specific, as detailed in the Bestiary.

But then you kind of drift into talking about clerics casting "it," but you don't say what "it" is. Remove curse? Remove Disease? Lycanthropy?

In any event... it's supposed to be something REALLY hard to get rid of.


James Jacobs wrote:
Odraude wrote:

Lycanthropy is very weird to me. In the Core Rules, it has Werewolf Lycanthropy listed as a curse, but in the bestiary it's a disease. So admittedly, which one is it? Can we use Remove Curse and Remove Disease?

Also, can only Clerics get rid of it? Or can you spread it to Oracles and Druids?

And why does a Cleric have to be level 12 to cast it? The DC of the Curse/Disease of Werewolf Lycanthropy is only 15 so I can't imagine a Cleric of a lower level having an issue getting rid of it.

Lycanthropy is a curse and a disease... but the methods to get rid of it are pretty specific, as detailed in the Bestiary.

But then you kind of drift into talking about clerics casting "it," but you don't say what "it" is. Remove curse? Remove Disease? Lycanthropy?

In any event... it's supposed to be something REALLY hard to get rid of.

Erm, sorry. Remove Disease is what I'm talking about. In the bestiary it says only a cleric can do it. But, this was written before the Oracle came out. So, could an oracle theoretically cast Remove Disease, given it'd probably have to be a similar level (level 12) as the cleric?

And thanks for answer that question. Admittedly, it was really confusing since it was under the core as a curse so me and my players didn't know how to handle it.

Speaking of curses, could you theoretically cast Bestow Curse and give someone lycanthropy? Kind of like in the classic stories where a witch punishes a man by cursing him with lycanthropy.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Odraude wrote:

Erm, sorry. Remove Disease is what I'm talking about. In the bestiary it says only a cleric can do it. But, this was written before the Oracle came out. So, could an oracle theoretically cast Remove Disease, given it'd probably have to be a similar level (level 12) as the cleric?

And thanks for answer that question. Admittedly, it was really confusing since it was under the core as a curse so me and my players didn't know how to handle it.

Speaking of curses, could you theoretically cast Bestow Curse and give someone lycanthropy? Kind of like in the classic stories where a witch punishes a man by cursing him with lycanthropy.

Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

Lycanthropy's a more powerful effect than Bestow Curse could grant. You'd need a higher level spell to do that.


James Jacobs wrote:
Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

While we're at it...

Should one add the Witch, as well (Remove Disease is on the Witch's list as well, after all). And, is there any reason why a Druid shouldn't be able to cure it?


James Jacobs wrote:
Odraude wrote:

Erm, sorry. Remove Disease is what I'm talking about. In the bestiary it says only a cleric can do it. But, this was written before the Oracle came out. So, could an oracle theoretically cast Remove Disease, given it'd probably have to be a similar level (level 12) as the cleric?

And thanks for answer that question. Admittedly, it was really confusing since it was under the core as a curse so me and my players didn't know how to handle it.

Speaking of curses, could you theoretically cast Bestow Curse and give someone lycanthropy? Kind of like in the classic stories where a witch punishes a man by cursing him with lycanthropy.

Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

Lycanthropy's a more powerful effect than Bestow Curse could grant. You'd need a higher level spell to do that.

That's a fair point. I'd imagine that Major Curse would probably fit the bill. I had always wondered what kind of spell it would be to actually cast many of those curses in the Core Rulebook onto someone. Aside from Baleful Polymorph. I guess I always assumed Bestow Curse since up until now, I thought it was the only one that could.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Odraude wrote:

Erm, sorry. Remove Disease is what I'm talking about. In the bestiary it says only a cleric can do it. But, this was written before the Oracle came out. So, could an oracle theoretically cast Remove Disease, given it'd probably have to be a similar level (level 12) as the cleric?

And thanks for answer that question. Admittedly, it was really confusing since it was under the core as a curse so me and my players didn't know how to handle it.

Speaking of curses, could you theoretically cast Bestow Curse and give someone lycanthropy? Kind of like in the classic stories where a witch punishes a man by cursing him with lycanthropy.

Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

Lycanthropy's a more powerful effect than Bestow Curse could grant. You'd need a higher level spell to do that.

A 12th level paladin can cure it with the Remove disease mercy?

Inquisitor with the Remove disease spell?

Character with some level of cleric and then a Prestige Class adding clerical spellcasting levels using the Remove disease spell?

Looking it is a bit weird that a druid can't cure it. Depending on how you see it is is either within his kind of domain or something that nature will abhor and try to remove.

Edit:
Even the ranger and witch have the spell on their lists. I think they aren't powerful enough in their curative abilities for it to work, but it is worth nothing that.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Midnight_Angel wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

While we're at it...

Should one add the Witch, as well (Remove Disease is on the Witch's list as well, after all). And, is there any reason why a Druid shouldn't be able to cure it?

Feel free to add any class you want to the list... but keep in mind that the more you add, the easier, in theory, the cursed disease becomes to fix is all.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Diego Rossi wrote:

Looking it is a bit weird that a druid can't cure it. Depending on how you see it is is either within his kind of domain or something that nature will abhor and try to remove.

Actually... if ANY class is gonna be okay with a condition that reverts those who get it to more primal, animalistic versions of themselves...it'd probably be druids. Hence they'd probably NOT want to cure lycanthropy all the time.

(shrug)

Again, it all boils down to "it should be hard to cure." Because in pretty much every werewolf story ever written... it's hard to cure.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I was listing all the people that has cure disease (there is the alchemist too).

Maybe a druid should have something that help controlling the animal form (in 3.x they had some spell, I don't recall if there is something similar in Pathfinder).

What I would allow to work is the Paladin mercy.
Resolving something that is "hard to cure", possibly without undue killing, is their raison d'être.

Liberty's Edge

James, a while back someone mentioned that, according to the Bestiary, Merfolk can learn the Sahuagin language as a bonus language ... yet, the Sahaugin entry indicates that they speak Aquan, but NOT Sahuagin .

Sahuagin is not included in the Linguistics skill's list of languages, which tends to imply the Merfolk's entry might be wrong.

However, you said you preferred to think that the sahuagin do have their own language. I agree, by the way.

Do you know if this discrepancy is going to be officially corrected in the next print edition(s) and the PRD? It seems like a quick and easy fix, one way or the other (either there IS a Sahuagin language, in which case it should be added to the Sahuagin's languages known OR there is not, in which case the line about Merfolk being able to learn the Sahuagin language as a bonus language should be removed)

Along these lines, if an actual Sahuagin language does get officially added, would sahuagin then also need to be added to the Linguistics skill list of languages?

Thanks!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Marc Radle wrote:

James, a while back someone mentioned that, according to the Bestiary, Merfolk can learn the Sahuagin language as a bonus language ... yet, the Sahaugin entry indicates they don't know this language:

Sahuagin is not included in the Linguistics skill's list of languages, which tends to imply the Merfolk's entry might be wrong.

However, you said you preferred to think that the sahuagin do have their own language. I agree, by the way.

Do you know if this discrepancy this going will be officially fixed in print and the PRD? It seems like a quick and easy fix, one way or the other (either there IS a Sahuagin language, in which case it should be added to the Sahuagin's languages known OR there is not, in which case the line about Merfolk being able to learn the Sahuagin language as a bonus language should be removed)

Along these lines, if an actual Sahuagin language does get officially added, would sahuagin then also need to be added to the Linguistics skill list of languages?

Thanks!

I doubt youl'll see this change show up in the PRD or the Bestiary anytime soon... but there WILL be a giant article about Golarion's oceans and those who dwell within coming up in the 2nd Skull & Shackles. I suspect that what'll happen there is that the sahuagin language is just gonna go away... but we'll see.


Marc Radle wrote:

James, a while back someone mentioned that, according to the Bestiary, Merfolk can learn the Sahuagin language as a bonus language ... yet, the Sahaugin entry indicates that they speak Aquan, but NOT Sahuagin .

Sahuagin is not included in the Linguistics skill's list of languages, which tends to imply the Merfolk's entry might be wrong.

However, you said you preferred to think that the sahuagin do have their own language. I agree, by the way.

Do you know if this discrepancy is going to be officially corrected in the next print edition(s) and the PRD? It seems like a quick and easy fix, one way or the other (either there IS a Sahuagin language, in which case it should be added to the Sahuagin's languages known OR there is not, in which case the line about Merfolk being able to learn the Sahuagin language as a bonus language should be removed)

Along these lines, if an actual Sahuagin language does get officially added, would sahuagin then also need to be added to the Linguistics skill list of languages?

Thanks!

It might need to be posted to the bestiary errata thread in order to get it noticed, or post it in the rules thread to get people to FAQ it.


James Jacobs wrote:
Odraude wrote:

Erm, sorry. Remove Disease is what I'm talking about. In the bestiary it says only a cleric can do it. But, this was written before the Oracle came out. So, could an oracle theoretically cast Remove Disease, given it'd probably have to be a similar level (level 12) as the cleric?

And thanks for answer that question. Admittedly, it was really confusing since it was under the core as a curse so me and my players didn't know how to handle it.

Speaking of curses, could you theoretically cast Bestow Curse and give someone lycanthropy? Kind of like in the classic stories where a witch punishes a man by cursing him with lycanthropy.

Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

Lycanthropy's a more powerful effect than Bestow Curse could grant. You'd need a higher level spell to do that.

Would you have Major Curse be able to curse someone with lycanthropy? Or perhaps something like Limited Wish?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Odraude wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Odraude wrote:

Erm, sorry. Remove Disease is what I'm talking about. In the bestiary it says only a cleric can do it. But, this was written before the Oracle came out. So, could an oracle theoretically cast Remove Disease, given it'd probably have to be a similar level (level 12) as the cleric?

And thanks for answer that question. Admittedly, it was really confusing since it was under the core as a curse so me and my players didn't know how to handle it.

Speaking of curses, could you theoretically cast Bestow Curse and give someone lycanthropy? Kind of like in the classic stories where a witch punishes a man by cursing him with lycanthropy.

Ah. Yup, add oracle to the list of those who can cure it.

Lycanthropy's a more powerful effect than Bestow Curse could grant. You'd need a higher level spell to do that.

Would you have Major Curse be able to curse someone with lycanthropy? Or perhaps something like Limited Wish?

I'm not sure what level major curse is off the top of my head... but something that causes lycanthropy, in my opinion, should be about 7th level or thereabouts. On par with insanity.

Silver Crusade

Finally sitting down to read my American Library edition of HP Lovecraft....and came across "Eidolon", I assume this is where Paizo learned the word, since in none of my other readings, have I come across it.

Oh, the story I'm reading is "The Dunwich Horror".

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dan Luckett wrote:

Finally sitting down to read my American Library edition of HP Lovecraft....and came across "Eidolon", I assume this is where Paizo learned the word, since in none of my other readings, have I come across it.

Oh, the story I'm reading is "The Dunwich Horror".

Actually... that's likely where I learned the word.

Over the years of my writing for D&D, I introduced at least three "eidolon" monsters to the game—the rogue eidolon, the elder eidolon, and the rimefire eidolon. Whether or not Jason was inspired by those monsters or not when he settled on the word for a summoner pet, or whether he learned the word from Lovecraft, I can't say.

Silver Crusade

James Jacobs wrote:
Dan Luckett wrote:

Finally sitting down to read my American Library edition of HP Lovecraft....and came across "Eidolon", I assume this is where Paizo learned the word, since in none of my other readings, have I come across it.

Oh, the story I'm reading is "The Dunwich Horror".

Actually... that's likely where I learned the word.

Over the years of my writing for D&D, I introduced at least three "eidolon" monsters to the game—the rogue eidolon, the elder eidolon, and the rimefire eidolon. Whether or not Jason was inspired by those monsters or not when he settled on the word for a summoner pet, or whether he learned the word from Lovecraft, I can't say.

I'm about a dozen pages from finishing this story, which should I peruse next?


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I know Final Fantasy IX uses "eidolon" as the name for summoned creature, but SquareSoft/SquareEnix has a lot of sources for inspiration.

Silver Crusade

Alright, James. Ages ago, you said you'd let me buy you a meal, and pick your brain. I'm going to Gencon this summer, and have a few slots unslotted. Could I trade your time for a meal?

Contributor

I would like to learn more about Apsu as well as creation myths in the setting. Will these ever be touched upon?


Dear James Jacobs,

1) What happens to a person's soul when they're polymorphed by a spell like Baleful Polymorph?

2) If the answer to the above question is anything along the lines of "the soul becomes cut off from the body" or "the soul takes a back seat to animal instincts," would you consider the act of using Baleful Polymorph on someone Evil?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dan Luckett wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Dan Luckett wrote:

Finally sitting down to read my American Library edition of HP Lovecraft....and came across "Eidolon", I assume this is where Paizo learned the word, since in none of my other readings, have I come across it.

Oh, the story I'm reading is "The Dunwich Horror".

Actually... that's likely where I learned the word.

Over the years of my writing for D&D, I introduced at least three "eidolon" monsters to the game—the rogue eidolon, the elder eidolon, and the rimefire eidolon. Whether or not Jason was inspired by those monsters or not when he settled on the word for a summoner pet, or whether he learned the word from Lovecraft, I can't say.

I'm about a dozen pages from finishing this story, which should I peruse next?

My favorite: At the Mountains of Madness.

Other awesome ones include: The Colour out of Space, The Shadow Over Innsmouth, The Whisperer in the Darkness, The Shadow out of Time, and the Haunter in the Dark.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dan Luckett wrote:
Alright, James. Ages ago, you said you'd let me buy you a meal, and pick your brain. I'm going to Gencon this summer, and have a few slots unslotted. Could I trade your time for a meal?

I'd love to take you up on that... but I can't. My time at Gen Con is pretty booked solid from the moment I stagger out of bed (at what is, to me, about 6 hours earlier than I normally wake up...) to the moment I stagger back to bed each night. Thanks for the invite... but the best I can do is be at the booth at some point to chat with you about whatever you wanna talk about! :-)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

donato wrote:
I would like to learn more about Apsu as well as creation myths in the setting. Will these ever be touched upon?

Eventually, yes.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Golden-Esque wrote:

Dear James Jacobs,

1) What happens to a person's soul when they're polymorphed by a spell like Baleful Polymorph?

2) If the answer to the above question is anything along the lines of "the soul becomes cut off from the body" or "the soul takes a back seat to animal instincts," would you consider the act of using Baleful Polymorph on someone Evil?

1) Nothing; it is unaffected by polymorph. Even if their personality changes. Once the polymorphed body dies, the soul goes on to the Boneyard as normal. If they get resurrected, they come back in their normal body.

2) It doesn't , so nope!


James Jacobs wrote:


Over the years of my writing for D&D, I introduced at least three "eidolon" monsters to the game—the rogue eidolon, the elder eidolon, and the rimefire eidolon. Whether or not Jason was inspired by those monsters or not when he settled on the word for a summoner pet, or whether he learned the word from Lovecraft, I can't say.

Speaking of which, i loved the rogue eidolon. Have you considered remaking it for Pathfinder or should I just convert it myself (although, I don't have Bestiary 3 soooo... it's not in there is it?)


Dear James Jacobs,

1)Is there a way in a post-Skyrim world to prevent 'Words of Power' Wizards from shouting Fus-Ro-Da! every fifteen minutes?

2)When a player shatters the fourth wall do they get to save against taking damage from it?

3)A Goblin, a Gnome and a Dwarf walk into a bar, who gets the punchline?


Regarding the etymology of "Eidolon"

Paizo Employee Creative Director

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Over the years of my writing for D&D, I introduced at least three "eidolon" monsters to the game—the rogue eidolon, the elder eidolon, and the rimefire eidolon. Whether or not Jason was inspired by those monsters or not when he settled on the word for a summoner pet, or whether he learned the word from Lovecraft, I can't say.

Speaking of which, i loved the rogue eidolon. Have you considered remaking it for Pathfinder or should I just convert it myself (although, I don't have Bestiary 3 soooo... it's not in there is it?)

You'll need to convert it yourself. It, like all the monsters I designed for WotC, are owned by WotC and are not open content, therefore we can't update them or use them in our products at all. Alas.

Thanks for the kind words though! I've always been pretty proud of the rogue eidolon myself.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aurumaer wrote:

Dear James Jacobs,

1)Is there a way in a post-Skyrim world to prevent 'Words of Power' Wizards from shouting Fus-Ro-Da! every fifteen minutes?

2)When a player shatters the fourth wall do they get to save against taking damage from it?

3)A Goblin, a Gnome and a Dwarf walk into a bar, who gets the punchline?

1) No. They're noisy like that.

2) Yes. 8d6 points of scorn damage from the GM (and perhaps from other players) per round the broken wall remains broken.

3) Dwarf.

Silver Crusade

James,
Over at the PFS section there is some confusion on how the UMD Skill works in regards to emulating a class. The question was targeted at Ring of Revelation. The argument is can a non-oracle utilize the ring to gain temporary access to a revelation with a sufficient roll of UMD?

Some argue that no, you have to be an Oracle, and if you're not UMD won't help you.

Others say that UMD circumvents those standard preventions.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dan Luckett wrote:

James,

Over at the PFS section there is some confusion on how the UMD Skill works in regards to emulating a class. The question was targeted at Ring of Revelation. The argument is can a non-oracle utilize the ring to gain temporary access to a revelation with a sufficient roll of UMD?

Some argue that no, you have to be an Oracle, and if you're not UMD won't help you.

Others say that UMD circumvents those standard preventions.

Use Magic Device will let you trick an item into thinking you're a different class... but it does not grant the POWERS of that class. The way the ring of revelation is worded pretty much means you HAVE to be an Oracle (aka you have to meet minimum level requirements in class abilities granted by the oracle class, since the powers granted directly affect that ability rather than grant you NEW abilities). Furthermore, the ring specifically says that it has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.

SO. Best case scenario, you could Use Magic Device to trick the ring into activating, but if you don't actually have class levels in oracle, the ring will do nothing more than take up a ring slot for you.

The Exchange

Nathanial321 wrote:
...since I was the one asking and James Jacobs did the answering, do I need to contact someone, either on the Paizo site or the http://www.d20pfsrd.com site or both, to show that an official answer has been posted as a polite way to show them that it has been posted, so that they can then decide to post it onto the errata page or http://www.d20pfsrd.com page or both?

Until something is officially posted in the FAQ or released in an errata we don't consider it "official", no offense to James of course. In cases like this we typically add "editors notes' boxes explaining it and provide a link to the forum post. I'm posting via phone right now so will have to wait till later tonight to add the info to the site, unless of course one of the others gets to it first.

Liberty's Edge

In regards to Aura of Chaos as a PC using this effect is there anything preventing an enemy who wants to attack from choosing move action and then voluntarily giving up a saving throw?

Does the enemy know exactly what the effect is and what will happen if he Makes/Fails the save?

If one were to combine this aura with touch of chaos or Misfortune hex what would be the less favorable/worst result?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

James, when did it become Paizo policy to ship one of these with every order? odd shipment


d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Nathanial321 wrote:
...since I was the one asking and James Jacobs did the answering, do I need to contact someone, either on the Paizo site or the http://www.d20pfsrd.com site or both, to show that an official answer has been posted as a polite way to show them that it has been posted, so that they can then decide to post it onto the errata page or http://www.d20pfsrd.com page or both?
Until something is officially posted in the FAQ or released in an errata we don't consider it "official", no offense to James of course. In cases like this we typically add "editors notes' boxes explaining it and provide a link to the forum post. I'm posting via phone right now so will have to wait till later tonight to add the info to the site, unless of course one of the others gets to it first.

Oh, I see. So, if there is an statement that would be considered an editor's note, do you have a way for members to tell you about it, or should they just not do anything and let

d20pfsrd officials find it on their own?

The Exchange

Nathanial321 wrote:
Oh, I see. So, if there is an statement that would be considered an editor's note, do you have a way for members to tell you about it, or should they just not do anything and let d20pfsrd officials find it on their own?

"officials" heh we ain't all that!

Anyway, yeah, just email us. On the left side of every page of d20pfsrd.com is a box labeled "More Information" and inside that box are a few links, one of them being "Report a Problem". When you click on that one it opens a new email on your PC addressed to "d20pfsrd.com+problem@gmail.com" which gets sent to a subset of our team who usually take care of these sorts of things.

So... you can either do that (click that link) or, you can simply copy and paste that address into your mail client (or your Gmail account if that is what you use) as a contact. Then, if you see this sort of thing come up again just fire off an email to us. Oh, you can also report it on our Facebook page, or join the Fans of d20pfsrd.com Facebook group and report it there.

Or just email me directly :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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John Benbo wrote:
James, when did it become Paizo policy to ship one of these with every order? odd shipment

KITTY!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Flashohol wrote:

In regards to Aura of Chaos as a PC using this effect is there anything preventing an enemy who wants to attack from choosing move action and then voluntarily giving up a saving throw?

Does the enemy know exactly what the effect is and what will happen if he Makes/Fails the save?

If one were to combine this aura with touch of chaos or Misfortune hex what would be the less favorable/worst result?

One would hope that the GM wasn't being a jerk and cheating like that—that's a kind of metagamey way to run things. But no... there's not much preventing an enemy from doing that—just GM honesty.

The enemy probably won't know what the effect is unless he can make something like a Knowledge (religion) check to figure out what was going on.

Whichever saving throw result is less desirable.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

James, there is some mission in Skyrim that you haven't completed because you did feel it was against your character concept?

Liberty's Edge

I have a player bringing a bard/paladin into shackled city. Shack used campaign treats that had a benefit and drawback and none really fit the character. I would like one connecting the character to Nidrama, do you have any suggestions for the benefit/drawback and how the connection might be?


Let's discuss a hypothetical. There is a Paladin of, say, Shelyn. I, as GM, decide to create a moral dilemma where she has no choice but to violate the code of conduct in one way or another. There is no third option. Classic catch 22. Here's the thing. Shelyn will forgive her Paladin for having to break the code, as she understands why it had to be done.

Would this be a dick move on my part? On the one hand, I'm forcing a Paladin to break her code. On the other hand, however, she isn't going to be punished for it, because Shelyn understands the difficult choice she had to make.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Diego Rossi wrote:
James, there is some mission in Skyrim that you haven't completed because you did feel it was against your character concept?

Yup. My character concept was that I was a refugee from the south, an Imperial who spent much of her last few years being a thief and smuggler until she was nearly caught. She fled north to escape imprisonment and/or execution by the Imperial guards, only to get caught just as she crossed the border into Skyrim. As a result... she ended up siding with the Stormcloaks against the Empire when the time came, so I didn't do any of the civil war quests for those other jerks!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Coridan wrote:
I have a player bringing a bard/paladin into shackled city. Shack used campaign treats that had a benefit and drawback and none really fit the character. I would like one connecting the character to Nidrama, do you have any suggestions for the benefit/drawback and how the connection might be?

You could do a trait that gives that player permission to play an aasimar (or at the least, gain some aasimar traits) and he/she could be a descendant of Nidrama's, with a flaw that he/she suffers a -1 penalty on saves against the special attacks of fiends?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

Let's discuss a hypothetical. There is a Paladin of, say, Shelyn. I, as GM, decide to create a moral dilemma where she has no choice but to violate the code of conduct in one way or another. There is no third option. Classic catch 22. Here's the thing. Shelyn will forgive her Paladin for having to break the code, as she understands why it had to be done.

Would this be a dick move on my part? On the one hand, I'm forcing a Paladin to break her code. On the other hand, however, she isn't going to be punished for it, because Shelyn understands the difficult choice she had to make.

If you set things up (both with this setup's specific preludes AND with how you've presented similar options and events to that player or other players over the entirety of your running games for this group) so that your players trust you... it's still kind of a dick move, but at least your players will be prepared for the fact that it's part of the story and a player of a paladin will have knowingly chosen that class to play in your game SPECIFICALLY because he or she wants and is anticipating that kind of roleplaying challenge.

In any other situation... it's pretty much a dick move. One of the main reasons people play paladins is BECAUSE they want to play the hero. They don't WANT to play a gritty, dark, depressing, shades-of-gray character.

Forcing a "no-win" situation on a paladin like this is like forcing a fighter to not fight at all or forcing a wizard to not cast spells for a session or forcing a cleric to blaspheme against her deity. It's railroading, and in one of the worst ways, in my opinion—you're building a situation where a specific person in your group is not going to have a choice but to fail. It doesn't really matter if that failure is "temporary" or not. You're still forcing that failure.

A MUCH better option is to present a really tough situation. Have in your mind a way the paladin can achieve the situation without actually breaking her code—even if that means having Shelyn grant her a vision or a dream or an omen to give her the hint she might have to bend the rules a bit... but EVEN then it kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

The more I think of it... the more I'm coming to think that it's a dick move no matter what.

UNLESS, again, your player decided to play a paladin SPECIFICALLY because they wanted you to do this type of thing to that PC, I guess.


Well, I don't actually plan to do this. It doesn't fit my campaign setting one bit. I was just wondering if you think forcing crappy decisions on a Paladin is dicky if the Paladin won't be punished for having to bend the rules.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
Coridan wrote:
I have a player bringing a bard/paladin into shackled city. Shack used campaign treats that had a benefit and drawback and none really fit the character. I would like one connecting the character to Nidrama, do you have any suggestions for the benefit/drawback and how the connection might be?
You could do a trait that gives that player permission to play an aasimar (or at the least, gain some aasimar traits) and he/she could be a descendant of Nidrama's, with a flaw that he/she suffers a -1 penalty on saves against the special attacks of fiends?

I was thinking along those lines, the character is already made as a half elf (drow) but in reality and unbeknownst to her is actually a descendant of Nidrama. Blue skin pointy ears.

Do you think the heavenly fire from celestial sorceror is too powerful? Maybe with a -2 to saves? A bard/paladin has damn good saves (10/12/10 at lvl 6)


So, recently I purchased one copy of red hand of doom that i am planing o convert to pahtfinder rules.
And surprise, my favorite tyrannosaurus designer co-authored that book. So, i will use that happy coincidence to make a couple of questions

1)i did not read it entirely but, devils, dragons, undeads, i am little worried that a paladin would dominate the entire adventure, what would you think?

2) Besides converting the monsters stats, do you think that there would be any problem when using that adventure with the pathfinder rules?

3) do you think that classes like smmoner, with, alchemist, gunslinger a the others "new" classes would be at ods with the style of the adventure?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Coridan wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Coridan wrote:
I have a player bringing a bard/paladin into shackled city. Shack used campaign treats that had a benefit and drawback and none really fit the character. I would like one connecting the character to Nidrama, do you have any suggestions for the benefit/drawback and how the connection might be?
You could do a trait that gives that player permission to play an aasimar (or at the least, gain some aasimar traits) and he/she could be a descendant of Nidrama's, with a flaw that he/she suffers a -1 penalty on saves against the special attacks of fiends?

I was thinking along those lines, the character is already made as a half elf (drow) but in reality and unbeknownst to her is actually a descendant of Nidrama. Blue skin pointy ears.

Do you think the heavenly fire from celestial sorceror is too powerful? Maybe with a -2 to saves? A bard/paladin has damn good saves (10/12/10 at lvl 6)

Not knowing the intricacies of your game table and gaming styles... I can't say for sure.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Nicos wrote:

So, recently I purchased one copy of red hand of doom that i am planing o convert to pahtfinder rules.

And surprise, my favorite tyrannosaurus designer co-authored that book. So, i will use that happy coincidence to make a couple of questions

1)i did not read it entirely but, devils, dragons, undeads, i am little worried that a paladin would dominate the entire adventure, what would you think?

2) Besides converting the monsters stats, do you think that there would be any problem when using that adventure with the pathfinder rules?

3) do you think that classes like smmoner, with, alchemist, gunslinger a the others "new" classes would be at ods with the style of the adventure?

1) The adventure's on a pretty tight timeline, which means that a paladin's going to have to "ration" her smites. If you're worried about it, then don't allow paladins in your group, I guess. In my experience, paladins aren't as overwhelming as they seem, though, especially when their enemies are more mobile or more numerous.

2) Nope. It should work fine.

3) Summoner and gunslinger are—they're a bit too weird in my opinion to fit well into the adventure's implied setting.

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