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1. Why did Cheliax not annex Isger? It is very weak, and beause it is already under heavy Chelish influence, no nation will bother if Cheliax annex Isger.

2. The Goblinblood Wars expanded so greatly because Isgeri army is very weak and Cheliax didn't bother to send its army to help. So, what if Cheliax annexed Isger long before the war? Would the goblins be devastated in the early stage of the war and there would be no need to receive the help from Andoran and Druma?

3. Why Cheliax didn't help Isger? A huge army of hobgoblins would be a serious threat to Cheliax as well. Did it think Isgeri army can handle them very well?

4. What would happen to Iron Rose, the center of Mammon cult in northeastern Isger if Isger is annexed by Cheliax? Will the Asmodeus-worshipping Thrune or the church of Asmodeus allow them to stay peacefully and spread their belief? Or would Thrune or the church of Asmodeus oust or kill the Mammonites because Cheliax is for Asmodeus only?

5. Do the Isgeri government, the Chelish government and the church of Asmodeus know about Iron Rose and its location? Or is Iron Rose hidden so well that even they don't know its existence?


6. If Cheliax annexed Isger long before the time of Hell's Vengeance, what would happen when the Iomedaeans seized the Citadel Dinyar? I mean, I'm not sure if the Hellknights are vassal to the Chelish throne, or if they are independent NGOs. So, what will happen? Will the Chelish army go to the Citadel Dinyar and eliminate the Iomedaeans because they attacked the queen's vassals? Or will the army stay neutral until the Glorious Reclamation makes it clear that they intend to overthrow the Thrune regime because Hellknights are independent organizations that not belong to any government?

7. What did Isger do during Hell's Vengeance? I read Scouge of the Godclaw but still not sure. Did it allow the Glorious Reclamation move freely in its land, mainly because it has no army to stop them anyway, but not directly helping them, because it secretly hate Cheliax and hopes for the Iomedaeans to win, but not want to risk the wrath of Thrune?

8. Is it safe to assume that, during the war against the Glorious Reclamation, the Hellknights would stay neutral because they are NGOs?

9. I thought Cheliax is a crazy expansionist nation which would try anything to conquer the neighboring nations. But Hell's Rebels suggested otherwise. Cheliax cannot invade Ravounel because the Cheliax Covenant granted Thrune the rulership of Cheliax only, and because Ravounel isn't Cheliax, they cannot invade there. So, does this mean Cheliax cannot invade other nations too? I mean, the other nations are not part of Cheliax too, so technically Cheliax cannot invade them, right?

10. Was Cheliax evil before Aroden's death? I mean, I got the impression that even before the Thrune Ascendancy, the old Cheliax was full of pride, expansionism, human supremacy, and Aroden-fanaticism that made other nations and races tremble in fear. Am I right?


1. Should Great Old One's have some ability to conduct planar travel or, given their ties to the material plane, immunity to the same?

2. How would a plane's inhabitants react to a Great Old One being plane shifted there? Kill it or just banish it to send it back to the Material Plane?

Looking at their stat blocks, it usually occurs to me that the best way to deal with one is spamming an optimized Plane Shift (Persistent Spell, Reach Spell, Spell Focus, etc.) by a Cleric or Psychic to send it somewhere it can't escape and there are creatures who would be able and motivated to do something about it.

Usually I imagine making them Heaven's problem, but I notice that Ithaqua would have an especially hard time on the plane of elemental fire, where the per round damage would average out to exactly offset its fast healing and it would be perma-staggered.


Hello james!, Samsaran races (they are like human reincarnations) can they become nobles ? if so do you think they can pick the Noble of Scion feat? or been noble is only a human or elf thing? Would you allow a Samsaran to be a noble?

Noble Scion
You are a member of a proud noble family, whether or not you remain in good standing with your family.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, must be taken at 1st level.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (nobility) checks, and that chosen Knowledge skill is always considered a class skill for you.

When you select this feat, choose one of the benefits listed below that matches the flavor of your noble family. Work with your GM to ensure that your choice is appropriate.

Scion of the Arts: You gain a +1 bonus on all Perform checks, and Perform is always a class skill for you. If you have the bardic performance ability, you can use that ability for an additional 3 rounds per day.

Scion of Lore: You gain a +1 bonus on all Knowledge skills in which you have at least 1 rank.

Scion of Magic: You gain one of the following languages as a bonus language: Abyssal, Aklo, Celestial, Draconic, Infernal, or Sylvan. Once per day, as a free action, you can gain a +2 bonus on any Spellcraft check you make. You must spend the free action to gain this bonus before you make the check.

Scion of Peace: Whenever you take 10 on a Wisdom-based skill, treat the result as if you had rolled a 13 instead of a 10.

Scion of War: You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.

Samsaran Society:

Samsarans prefer to live simple lives of reflection, scholarship, and worship. They try to live their lives free of the ambitions and greed that mortality often imposes, since they view their lives as only the latest incarnation of many to come. Any accomplishments left undone in this current life can surely be achieved in the next, or the one after that. Samsarans’ memories of their past lives are not complete—they most often feel like half-remembered dreams. Samsarans can give birth, yet they do not give birth to samsarans—instead, they birth human children. Typically, samsarans give up their children not long after birth to be raised in human society, where the children grow and live their lives normally. Upon death, such offspring sometimes reincarnate as samsaran children, if they lived their lives in keeping with harmony. While most samsarans who die also reincarnate as samsaran children, this is not always the case. When a samsaran has utterly failed at maintaining harmony in her current life, or when she has succeeded perfectly at it, her soul instead travels to the Great Beyond to receive its final, long-delayed reward or doom. Samsarans do not keep family names, but often retain the names of their previous one or two incarnations, regardless of gender, as a sort of replacement for a family name to honor their previous lives’ accomplishments or to remind them of their past shames.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Cole Deschain wrote:
Given how downright nasty some of their areas of influence are (looking at you, Zepar), is it safe to assume that more detailed coverage of the Infernal Dukes than what already exists is unlikely?

It's unlikely because there's a LOT of them and they are, as a whole, relatively minor in the grand scheme of "load bearing demigods." It's not a factor of any one of them being edgy or extreme as much as it is just the mass quantity. We might do one or two here or there now and then but a whole book about them? Yeah, unlikely.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

CorvusMask wrote:

So in which situations, outsider killed on material plane dies permanently and when they just get sent back to their original plane?

Also, how does the process of reforming on their plane go? Is it instantenous or really slow and painful?

You're confusing D&D cosmology with Pathifnder cosmology to a certain extent.

If a creature is summoned, it returns instantaneously to wherever it came from (or maybe just vanishes from reality entirley, depending on your interpretation of the wording).

If a creature is called, it returns instantaneously to its home plane if it's banished, but it does not return if it is killed. It just dies. Its body rots and decays. If it happens on an outer plane, the body is eventually reclaimed and merges with the quintessence of the realm; on the material plane they just decay.

Most outsiders do not get "reborn" on the outer plane of their genesis if they're killed, with the exception of specific and powerful ones, like demon lords.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Hythlodeus wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Aenigma wrote:


3. What is the name of the current dynasty of Taldor? In other words, what is Stavian III's surname?

3) Dunno off the top of my head.

does Stavian Dunno have a middle name too?

If I don't know (or more to the point, haven't invented) his last name, chances I know (or more to the point, haven't invented) his middle name are pretty low.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I'm stuck trying to decide on a race for a Giantslayer character. Should I go with a dwarf, which has a stronger connection to some of the history and natural advantages against the titular enemies even though they're pretty rare in Truneau and, at least from your perspective, less interesting? Or a half-orc, which requires less explaining as they're a sizable minority in Truneau and have stronger connections with the opening part of the campaign, but who would probably offend dwarven PCs or NPCs if they touched dwarven stuff?

Eew. Never dwarf.

Go human or elf. MAYBE half-elf. Or if you can get away with it, aasimar or tiefling.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Alonzo wrote:
When will we see the "Test of the Star Stone" AP?

Probably never. That's one of those storylines that doesn't really mesh well with the format of an Adventure Path. A "Test of the Starstone" adventure would work better as a standalone adventure. Probably best as a biggie-sized one.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aenigma wrote:

1. Why did Cheliax not annex Isger? It is very weak, and beause it is already under heavy Chelish influence, no nation will bother if Cheliax annex Isger.

2. The Goblinblood Wars expanded so greatly because Isgeri army is very weak and Cheliax didn't bother to send its army to help. So, what if Cheliax annexed Isger long before the war? Would the goblins be devastated in the early stage of the war and there would be no need to receive the help from Andoran and Druma?

3. Why Cheliax didn't help Isger? A huge army of hobgoblins would be a serious threat to Cheliax as well. Did it think Isgeri army can handle them very well?

4. What would happen to Iron Rose, the center of Mammon cult in northeastern Isger if Isger is annexed by Cheliax? Will the Asmodeus-worshipping Thrune or the church of Asmodeus allow them to stay peacefully and spread their belief? Or would Thrune or the church of Asmodeus oust or kill the Mammonites because Cheliax is for Asmodeus only?

5. Do the Isgeri government, the Chelish government and the church of Asmodeus know about Iron Rose and its location? Or is Iron Rose hidden so well that even they don't know its existence?

1) Because they didn't. We don't go into the reasons as far as I know, but it was likely because they ran out of energy/resources after expanding and claiming so much more around them and were regathering their energy and resources to push again, maybe, when the Age of Lost Omens threw it all off kilter.

2) I don't really get into the "what if" stuff. "What if" means it'd be a different campaign is all, with different nations and themes and stuff. Answering that = design work, and again, I try to avoid designing on these boards.

3) Likely because of a lack of resources/slow responses due to red tape and a desire to see if Isger could handle themselves.

4) It wouldn't be annexed; it'd fight to the death to avoid being absorbed, probably, but if it lost, it would just go away and be absorbed into the Chelish machine.

5) They've heard of it but haven't messed with it, since it's not antagonistic and it IS quite powerful. It's also kinda set up as a great enemy for a PC party to tackle. It's more interesting if adventurers handle these situations than if we just say they happen off-stage.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aenigma wrote:

6. If Cheliax annexed Isger long before the time of Hell's Vengeance, what would happen when the Iomedaeans seized the Citadel Dinyar? I mean, I'm not sure if the Hellknights are vassal to the Chelish throne, or if they are independent NGOs. So, what will happen? Will the Chelish army go to the Citadel Dinyar and eliminate the Iomedaeans because they attacked the queen's vassals? Or will the army stay neutral until the Glorious Reclamation makes it clear that they intend to overthrow the Thrune regime because Hellknights are independent organizations that not belong to any government?

7. What did Isger do during Hell's Vengeance? I read Scouge of the Godclaw but still not sure. Did it allow the Glorious Reclamation move freely in its land, mainly because it has no army to stop them anyway, but not directly helping them, because it secretly hate Cheliax and hopes for the Iomedaeans to win, but not want to risk the wrath of Thrune?

8. Is it safe to assume that, during the war against the Glorious Reclamation, the Hellknights would stay neutral because they are NGOs?

9. I thought Cheliax is a crazy expansionist nation which would try anything to conquer the neighboring nations. But Hell's Rebels suggested otherwise. Cheliax cannot invade Ravounel because the Cheliax Covenant granted Thrune the rulership of Cheliax only, and because Ravounel isn't Cheliax, they cannot invade there. So, does this mean Cheliax cannot invade other nations too? I mean, the other nations are not part of Cheliax too, so technically Cheliax cannot invade them, right?

10. Was Cheliax evil before Aroden's death? I mean, I got the impression that even before the Thrune Ascendancy, the old Cheliax was full of pride, expansionism, human supremacy, and Aroden-fanaticism that made other nations and races tremble in fear. Am I right?

6) More "What if" questions. If this happened, we'd have a different campaign setting and Hell's Vengeance would probably look very different, if indeed we bothered to do it at all.

7) Not much. Cowered and hoped for the best I guess, while simultaneously trying to stay self-sufficient.

8) Nope. Some sided with Thrune. Some took advantage to break away from Thrune and side with rebels (see the Order of the Torrent in Hell's Rebels). Some were far enough away that they could safely ignore things. It's all covered for the most part in the two APs.

9) Cheliax goes through expansion phases, followed by "Oh crap we overextended our resources" periods of cooldown. The results of the Age of Lost Omens starting up put them HARD into cooldown mode, and they're still there 100 years later. Cheliax is powerful, but its power is pretty balanced where it's at. If it COULD invade, it would have, but it hasn't because it knows that would spread its defenses too thin and its enemies would take advantage. So far, in the Age of Lost Omens, Cheliax's expansion/contraction is in balance.

10) No; it was lawful neutral. Still not good, but more in tune with lawful neutral Aroden themes (which does include pride, human supremacy, expansionism, and the like... but in a neutral manner... not an evil one).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

1. Should Great Old One's have some ability to conduct planar travel or, given their ties to the material plane, immunity to the same?

2. How would a plane's inhabitants react to a Great Old One being plane shifted there? Kill it or just banish it to send it back to the Material Plane?

Looking at their stat blocks, it usually occurs to me that the best way to deal with one is spamming an optimized Plane Shift (Persistent Spell, Reach Spell, Spell Focus, etc.) by a Cleric or Psychic to send it somewhere it can't escape and there are creatures who would be able and motivated to do something about it.

Usually I imagine making them Heaven's problem, but I notice that Ithaqua would have an especially hard time on the plane of elemental fire, where the per round damage would average out to exactly offset its fast healing and it would be perma-staggered.

1) Nope; they're material plane things. They don't have a lot of interest in going to the outer planes, or any real need to.

2) They'd probably flee in terror and go crazy and be put out until a deity forced the Great Old One back out of the plane, I guess.

Sending a Great Old One to heaven will likely solve the problem short term, but give you a BIGGER Problem when the rulers of Heaven send the Great Old One right back AND then follow up with their own investigation to figure out why some supposedly "good guy PCs" sent something like that to Heaven where it caused a LOT of damage. So, such a tactic would end up with you having to deal with the Great Old One again PLUS deal with angry angels.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Jose Suarez 310 wrote:

Hello james!, Samsaran races (they are like human reincarnations) can they become nobles ? if so do you think they can pick the Noble of Scion feat? or been noble is only a human or elf thing? Would you allow a Samsaran to be a noble?

Pretty much any society could have nobles among their number. Samsarans are no different. They'd have leaders/aristocrats/fancy-pants in charge that would count as nobles.


Thanks.

Ithaqua's stat block for the ranged wind blasts lists the damage "plus hurl."

I can't find any universal monster "hurl" ability. Is this intended to be the same as the (previously kaiju only and natural attack only) "hurl foe" ability?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Thanks.

Ithaqua's stat block for the ranged wind blasts lists the damage "plus hurl."

I can't find any universal monster "hurl" ability. Is this intended to be the same as the (previously kaiju only and natural attack only) "hurl foe" ability?

Nope; I ran out of room and cut the "hurl" ability but we all forgot to remove it from his stats. Sorry about that.


James Jacobs wrote:
AlgaeNymph wrote:

What’s your opinion of a $700+ seminar that puts participants through 4 days of starvation and sleep deprivation, lots of vigorous dancing, and has them mentally traumatize themselves as a group?

Furthermore, what would you say about a guy who tells people to stop making excuses for underachieving, boasts about all the projects he’s going to do, and then never does them and makes excuses for it?

I actually I actually don't have an opinion, because I don't feel comfortable getting involved in this situation; sorry.

Well, that sucks. :( Now I wish I showed these links to you out of context so you’d at least give them a peek. At least you're apologetic, unlike that guy

But on to less morbid topics.

Adventurer’s Armory gives the base price for slaves, but not any multipliers for qualities. e.g., both a goblin “hero” and an aasimar “dancing” boy would be considered specialized slaves. What sort of multipliers would you give based on slave qualities?

Speaking of being evil, what sort of reforms does your Nocticulan bard have planed once she takes over Cheliax?

Oh! Have you ever thought about staging murderplays based on Nocticula’s triumphs? (In-game, of course!)


James Jacobs wrote:
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Thanks.

Ithaqua's stat block for the ranged wind blasts lists the damage "plus hurl."

I can't find any universal monster "hurl" ability. Is this intended to be the same as the (previously kaiju only and natural attack only) "hurl foe" ability?

Nope; I ran out of room and cut the "hurl" ability but we all forgot to remove it from his stats. Sorry about that.

No problem. I always think your demigod level monsters are among the best individual things Paizo publishes. Which three are you most proud of?


Question about the Artifice Domain ability and Conducive weapon. I'm trying to make a dwarven forgemaster and I was wondering if the Artificer's Touch Ability would synergize with a conducive adamantine weapon.

Artificer's Touch (Sp)::
You can cast mending at will, using your cleric level as the caster level to repair damaged objects. In addition, you can cause damage to objects and construct creatures by striking them with a melee touch attack. Objects and constructs take 1d6 points of damage +1 for every two cleric levels you possess. This attack bypasses an amount of damage reduction and hardness equal to your cleric level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

The idea is to perform a sunder maneuver with it. An adamantine weapon cannot ignore the Hardness of something with 20 or more Hardness, but Artificer's Touch reduces that for the sake of the attack. So:

>Adamantine Longsword has 20 Hardness
>Sunder with Adamantine Conducive weapon, using Artificer's touch
>Longsword is treated as having less hardness
>Properties of Adamantine take care of the rest
>All the Damage from the attack (including the damage of the Artificer's Touch ability) bypasses Hardness

Dark Archive

So another outsider related question, related to shenanigans were my party tried to have Avaxial(pit fiend from Skull Crossing) sell his soul to them :P (They were trying to turn tables on the devil. I ruled that'd be impossible since I'm not sure how that would work.)

Can outsiders do that? I mean, since their soul and body is same thing, it is possible for outsiders sell their soul or otherwise lose it? I'd imagined no since body and soul being the same would mean they'd die, but decided to check just in case.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

AlgaeNymph wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
AlgaeNymph wrote:

What’s your opinion of a $700+ seminar that puts participants through 4 days of starvation and sleep deprivation, lots of vigorous dancing, and has them mentally traumatize themselves as a group?

Furthermore, what would you say about a guy who tells people to stop making excuses for underachieving, boasts about all the projects he’s going to do, and then never does them and makes excuses for it?

I actually I actually don't have an opinion, because I don't feel comfortable getting involved in this situation; sorry.

Well, that sucks. :( Now I wish I showed these links to you out of context so you’d at least give them a peek. At least you're apologetic, unlike that guy

But on to less morbid topics.

Adventurer’s Armory gives the base price for slaves, but not any multipliers for qualities. e.g., both a goblin “hero” and an aasimar “dancing” boy would be considered specialized slaves. What sort of multipliers would you give based on slave qualities?

Speaking of being evil, what sort of reforms does your Nocticulan bard have planed once she takes over Cheliax?

Oh! Have you ever thought about staging murderplays based on Nocticula’s triumphs? (In-game, of course!)

I'm actually glad you DIDN'T try to trick me and show me the links out of context. Because had I found out what you were actually up to, I would have been very very disappointed and frustrated and annoyed.

As for slave prices... it's best to leave that up to your individual GM and table, frankly, since that's such a tender topic on the boards. Not really interested in throwing more gasoline on that forum fire.

I don't have plans yet for Chelaix... and since we haven't actually played that game since Paizocon due to conventions and stuff getting in the way, I'm not currently in that character's head space anyway.

Haven't thought of staging Nocticula's murder plays.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Thanks.

Ithaqua's stat block for the ranged wind blasts lists the damage "plus hurl."

I can't find any universal monster "hurl" ability. Is this intended to be the same as the (previously kaiju only and natural attack only) "hurl foe" ability?

Nope; I ran out of room and cut the "hurl" ability but we all forgot to remove it from his stats. Sorry about that.
No problem. I always think your demigod level monsters are among the best individual things Paizo publishes. Which three are you most proud of?

Nocticula, Hastur, and Cthulhu. SO FAR.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dormin, the Colossal wrote:

Question about the Artifice Domain ability and Conducive weapon. I'm trying to make a dwarven forgemaster and I was wondering if the Artificer's Touch Ability would synergize with a conducive adamantine weapon.

** spoiler omitted **

The idea is to perform a sunder maneuver with it. An adamantine weapon cannot ignore the Hardness of something with 20 or more Hardness, but Artificer's Touch reduces that for the sake of the attack. So:

>Adamantine Longsword has 20 Hardness
>Sunder with Adamantine Conducive weapon, using Artificer's touch
>Longsword is treated as having less hardness
>Properties of Adamantine take care of the rest
>All the Damage from the attack (including the damage of the Artificer's Touch ability) bypasses Hardness

Rules questions need to be asked in the rules forum. I don't answer them here.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

CorvusMask wrote:

So another outsider related question, related to shenanigans were my party tried to have Avaxial(pit fiend from Skull Crossing) sell his soul to them :P (They were trying to turn tables on the devil. I ruled that'd be impossible since I'm not sure how that would work.)

Can outsiders do that? I mean, since their soul and body is same thing, it is possible for outsiders sell their soul or otherwise lose it? I'd imagined no since body and soul being the same would mean they'd die, but decided to check just in case.

That's more or less what binding and planar binding and things like that are all about. Outsiders can do it, but they're REALLY tenacious about getting the better end of the bargain.


1. I assumed that Cheliax didn't bother to annex Isger because, 1)Isger has very little natural resources, 2)Isger has very little population, 3)Its location is not strategically important. These three factors would mean that Isger owuld pay very low tax but defending it would be hard. So Cheliax didn't waste its energy to conquer a useless backwater which was already under its influence. Am I correct?

2. I always thought that the Goblinblood Wars were very significant events that posed a serious threat to the humanity. But recently I started thinking that, seriously, what can a bunch of hobgoblins do? Humanity is so numerous and powerful and much more organized! So, the only reason that the Goblinblood Wars became so big a event is that Isger, where the event took place, is one of the weakest in the Inner Sea region? That those hobgoblins may have posed a serious threat to Isger, but if it had taken place in other nations like Cheliax or Taldor, those hobgoblins couldn't be that a big problem?

3. You said that "what if" questions would be design works and you don't want to answer them. But I thought what if questions would be setting works and have nothing to do with the game mechanics. And it seems that you like to answer about the settings. Am I wrong?

4. I asked about Iron Rose because I'm not sure if Chelish government and the church of Asmodeus would allow other devil cults to exist and thrive in Cheliax. But it seems that you think the Mammonites would fight to death. Am I getting it right? I thought devil cults cooperate with other devil cults pretty well because they all obey Asmodeus.

5. Are the Hellknights vassal to the Chelish throne? Or are they NGOs?

6. What I tried to ask was that if those big, organized nations would allow non-governmental army move through their land and fight in their land. Like, if two Hellknight orders fight each other in Cheliax, or if Citadel Dinyar was built in Cheliax in the first place and those Iomedaeans came to Cheliax en masse and seized the Citadel, what would be the proper action the Chelish government will take? In USA, if two millitia fight each other the proper reaction of the government would be to send police to arrest them. So, what would be the appropriate reaction of the Chelish government when two non-governmental military organizations fight each other in their land?


7. The Hellknights are the guardians of order, not devil-worshippers. Do the people of the Inner Sea region know clearly about this? In other words, do other nations like Andoran, Taldor or Magnimar allow the Hellknights to move freely in their land? Or do they ban the Hellknights from entering their border because they think the Hellknights are vile devil-worshippers or the vassals of Cheliax?

8. You said that Cheliax is surely an expansionist nation. It's surprising. Ravounel cannot be conquered because it's not part of Cheliax, but other nations can be conquered even though it's not part of Cheliax either?

9. In Breaking the Bones of Hell, page 70, Mephistopheles said, "By defying my pawn, and by showing his nation that House Thrune does not have the control it thought, you have given them spurs. The nation's pride, as surely as Barzillai's pride, will be its downfall, and your actions have, my Master hopes, served as a warning."

I don't get it. It seems that what he implied was that Cheliax will fall because of its pride. Does that mean Mephistopheles and Asmodeus want it to fall? And does that also mean that Paizo will eventually make the infernal Cheliax fall? His statement seems like a prophecy to me.

10. Who is the Master Mephistopheles mentioned? Maybe Asmodeus? If so, it's surprising to me. I thought archdevils and demon lords are not subordinate to Asmodeus and Lamashtu. It would be weird to think of Deskari call Lamashtu or Pazuzu 'my lord', right? Is it because devils regard the order of rank very highly? So all the archdevils and infernal dukes call Asmodeus 'my lord' and obey him strictly?

11. In Cheliax, the Infernal Empire, page 2, there is an illustration that describes a Thrune agent exposing an Iomedaean praying to his goddess. I thought there is freedom of religion in Cheliax. Then why worshipping Iomedae is illegal in this illustration?


James Jacobs wrote:


2) Camazotz...(or the old D&D adventure "The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan," ).

Did you play this one as a tournament module?

Did you, like I did, have a character

Spoiler:
cut in half by the altar
?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aenigma wrote:

1. I assumed that Cheliax didn't bother to annex Isger because, 1)Isger has very little natural resources, 2)Isger has very little population, 3)Its location is not strategically important. These three factors would mean that Isger owuld pay very low tax but defending it would be hard. So Cheliax didn't waste its energy to conquer a useless backwater which was already under its influence. Am I correct?

2. I always thought that the Goblinblood Wars were very significant events that posed a serious threat to the humanity. But recently I started thinking that, seriously, what can a bunch of hobgoblins do? Humanity is so numerous and powerful and much more organized! So, the only reason that the Goblinblood Wars became so big a event is that Isger, where the event took place, is one of the weakest in the Inner Sea region? That those hobgoblins may have posed a serious threat to Isger, but if it had taken place in other nations like Cheliax or Taldor, those hobgoblins couldn't be that a big problem?

3. You said that "what if" questions would be design works and you don't want to answer them. But I thought what if questions would be setting works and have nothing to do with the game mechanics. And it seems that you like to answer about the settings. Am I wrong?

4. I asked about Iron Rose because I'm not sure if Chelish government and the church of Asmodeus would allow other devil cults to exist and thrive in Cheliax. But it seems that you think the Mammonites would fight to death. Am I getting it right? I thought devil cults cooperate with other devil cults pretty well because they all obey Asmodeus.

5. Are the Hellknights vassal to the Chelish throne? Or are they NGOs?

6. What I tried to ask was that if those big, organized nations would allow non-governmental army move through their land and fight in their land. Like, if two Hellknight orders fight each other in Cheliax, or if Citadel Dinyar was built in Cheliax in the first place and those Iomedaeans came to Cheliax en masse and seized the Citadel, what would be the proper action the Chelish government will take? In USA, if two millitia fight each other the proper reaction of the government would be to send police to arrest them. So, what would be the appropriate reaction of the Chelish government when two non-governmental military organizations fight each other in their land?

1) Since we haven't actually said in print WHY Cheliax didn't bother to annex Isger, you are as correct as anyone else. When we don't specifically say something is so in print, that leaves it up to the individual GM to make decisions and expand the setting as she/he wishes. Hell, if a GM wants to override something we've said in print to change it for their version of Golarion, that's fine too!

2) They posed a serious threat to Isger, but not "humanity" as a whole. It was a localized event, not a planetary one.

3) It has nothing to do with game mechanics. I'm fine answering small questions about the setting, but once someone asks a question that would require pages of content to answer, I'm less fine. I need to focus that creativity for the content creation part of my job. I do like to answer setting questions, as long as they're small questions, not "What would Cheliax be like if it was ruled by dwarves?" or other huge questions that are, in a way, requests for me to write an alternate history version of Golarion. I don't have the time or energy to reply to questions like that, especially when there are multiple ones, and especially since if I reply to one, then that sets a precedent for everyone else to ask similar questions. Sorry!

4) Other devil cults are allowed to exist and thrive in Cheliax. They can't be the number one cult in the nation. And when you have a 20th level character involved, then Thrune and the church get nervous. That said, yes, the archdevils DO cooperate with Asmodeus, and as such the Iron Rose is likely to not need to be "conquered" by Cheliax because it's already allied to a certain extent... with the CHURCH, but not with Thrune.

5) Hellknights are mercenaries. Some of them work for Thrune, provided they're paid well. But they aren't servants of Thrune.

6) Cheliax allows it as long as it doesn't endanger things Cheliax wants, and the smaller armies (such as the Hellknights) understand and respect it. They're all lawful, so the chanes of out and out warfare in Cheliax are minimal. They're likely to use more legal methods to handle disputes. What you're asking about is more like what happens if, say, a rebel group of paladins starts attacking. See "Hell's Vengeance" for that result.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

mellowgoth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


2) Camazotz...(or the old D&D adventure "The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan," ).

Did you play this one as a tournament module?

Did you, like I did, have a character ** spoiler omitted **?

Nope. I've never gone to a convention to play games, actually, and have never played in a RPG tournament. Not really that interesting a mode of play to me at all. I much prefer the home-game experience where you get to build a story with friends and have a more intimate experience with the story rather than the sloppy chaos of a massively multiplayer game.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aenigma wrote:

7. The Hellknights are the guardians of order, not devil-worshippers. Do the people of the Inner Sea region know clearly about this? In other words, do other nations like Andoran, Taldor or Magnimar allow the Hellknights to move freely in their land? Or do they ban the Hellknights from entering their border because they think the Hellknights are vile devil-worshippers or the vassals of Cheliax?

8. You said that Cheliax is surely an expansionist nation. It's surprising. Ravounel cannot be conquered because it's not part of Cheliax, but other nations can be conquered even though it's not part of Cheliax either?

9. In Breaking the Bones of Hell, page 70, Mephistopheles said, "By defying my pawn, and by showing his nation that House Thrune does not have the control it thought, you have given them spurs. The nation's pride, as surely as Barzillai's pride, will be its downfall, and your actions have, my Master hopes, served as a warning."

I don't get it. It seems that what he implied was that Cheliax will fall because of its pride. Does that mean Mephistopheles and Asmodeus want it to fall? And does that also mean that Paizo will eventually make the infernal Cheliax fall? His statement seems like a prophecy to me.

10. Who is the Master Mephistopheles mentioned? Maybe Asmodeus? If so, it's surprising to me. I thought archdevils and demon lords are not subordinate to Asmodeus and Lamashtu. It would be weird to think of Deskari call Lamashtu or Pazuzu 'my lord', right? Is it because devils regard the order of rank very highly? So all the archdevils and infernal dukes call Asmodeus 'my lord' and obey him strictly?

11. In Cheliax, the Infernal Empire, page 2, there is an illustration that describes a Thrune agent exposing an Iomedaean praying to his goddess. I thought there is freedom of religion in Cheliax. Then why worshipping Iomedae is illegal in this illustration?

7) Some Hellknights, on an individual basis, certainly worship devils, and I believe there are a few orders who blatantly worship devils. But the general rumors and scuttlebutt about Hellknights among the commonfolk of the Inner Sea is misinformed; most folks assume Hellknights serve Hell, and some probably think that under their armor Hellknights are actually devils. But commonfolk are not leaders, and as a general rule leaders of nations understand and will allow Hellknights to move in their borders. In some cases (see Korvosa) leaders actually ENCOURAGE Hellknights to visit or establish bases nearby, so as to help keep order. And the Hellknights themselves play by the rules, and won't just march into a region where they're not wanted save for in extenuating circumstances.

8) Cheliax WAS expansionist in the past. It is not currently in expansion mode today, although it wants to return to that mode some day.

9) What Mephistopheles is saying is that when the PCs help Ravounel secede from Cheliax, that gives Thrune and the church a wake up call. To a certain extent, they've been coasting on their reputation for 70 or so years, and this is the first time one of their own regions breaks away, and the fact that they end up not really being able to do much about it will shock them and make them more vigilant about keeping their house in order for the future. The loss of Ravounel actually doesn't impact Cheliax TOO much because they didn't have a huge amount of resources based there, and in fact, the region was festering with rebellion. In a way, Ravounel had gangrene, and by losing it, that's akin to a person with a gangrenous foot getting that foot amputated. That keeps the gangrene from spreading up the leg, and makes the person more careful in the future about putting their other foot into a situation where IT can get gangrene.

10) Asmodeus is indeed Mephistopheles' master. Why is that surprising? Archdevils are all subordinate to Asmodeus; all 8 of them serve him eagerly and willingly. Because they're lawful as well as evil. Archdevils are loyal to Asmodeus. This is VERY DIFFERENT from D&D's archdevils, which are all about betrayal and backstabbing each other, which never made sense to me. That's very much more akin to a demon lord behavior.

11) You're reading way too much into that illustration. It's not illustrating a government agent meting out punishment to someone breaking the law. It's an inquisitor of Asmodeus confronting an enemy worshiper of an enemy faith.


I just want to know, will all the rest of the strange aeons bestiary openers have great old ones in them too?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Nick O'Connell wrote:
I just want to know, will all the rest of the strange aeons bestiary openers have great old ones in them too?

Yup.

Grand Lodge

1. Is Norgorber ever worshiped as a whole or is it always an aspect?

2. Favorite Dwarf?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I'm stuck trying to decide on a race for a Giantslayer character. Should I go with a dwarf, which has a stronger connection to some of the history and natural advantages against the titular enemies even though they're pretty rare in Truneau and, at least from your perspective, less interesting? Or a half-orc, which requires less explaining as they're a sizable minority in Truneau and have stronger connections with the opening part of the campaign, but who would probably offend dwarven PCs or NPCs if they touched dwarven stuff?

Eew. Never dwarf.

Go human or elf. MAYBE half-elf. Or if you can get away with it, aasimar or tiefling.

Wouldn't they have the same issues as the half-orc when it comes to...

Giantslayer SPOILERS!:
...appropriating dwarven and giant artifacts like Nargrym's Steel Hand or the Hammer of Thunderbolts?
Paizo Employee Creative Director

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IDTheftVictim wrote:

1. Is Norgorber ever worshiped as a whole or is it always an aspect?

2. Favorite Dwarf?

1) Yup; he is sometimes worshiped as a whole.

2) Varric, from Dragon Age.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I'm stuck trying to decide on a race for a Giantslayer character. Should I go with a dwarf, which has a stronger connection to some of the history and natural advantages against the titular enemies even though they're pretty rare in Truneau and, at least from your perspective, less interesting? Or a half-orc, which requires less explaining as they're a sizable minority in Truneau and have stronger connections with the opening part of the campaign, but who would probably offend dwarven PCs or NPCs if they touched dwarven stuff?

Eew. Never dwarf.

Go human or elf. MAYBE half-elf. Or if you can get away with it, aasimar or tiefling.

Wouldn't they have the same issues as the half-orc when it comes to...** spoiler omitted **

Those advantages do not significantly offset the unpleasantness of playing a dwarf.


Quick Question for the glorious t-rex.

Can break enchantment work on supernatural or extraordinary abilities? For example, a vampires dominate ability. And if it does work, how does one calculate the dc of the dispel? roll.

It's probably gonna happen, so I want to have a better idea of how it works before hand.

As always, thanks for answering our questions!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How would you go about building a Pathfinder take on Doctor Anton Phibes?

Favorite movie take on a dragon?

Any music you're particularly into as of late?

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and do you ever handwave away a vampire's energy drain for thematic reasons? Always struck me as a war-gamey artifact of the early days of D&D.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

AramilNuren wrote:

Quick Question for the glorious t-rex.

Can break enchantment work on supernatural or extraordinary abilities? For example, a vampires dominate ability. And if it does work, how does one calculate the dc of the dispel? roll.

It's probably gonna happen, so I want to have a better idea of how it works before hand.

As always, thanks for answering our questions!

Break enchantment's a weird spell. In theory, it SHOULD work on supernatural abilities like vampire domination, if only because there needs to be SOME way to undo that effect. Break enchantment's a great option. The DC would be equal to the save DC to resist in the first place, I suppose; that's the easiest solution.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Cole Deschain wrote:

How would you go about building a Pathfinder take on Doctor Anton Phibes?

Favorite movie take on a dragon?

Any music you're particularly into as of late?

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and do you ever handwave away a vampire's energy drain for thematic reasons? Always struck me as a war-gamey artifact of the early days of D&D.

Not sure; not familiar with Phibes, believe it or not.

Game of Thrones.

I'm always into Dead Can Dance. Lately, the soundtrack to Stranger Things has been amusing me, along with some John Carpenter stuff (particularly the soundtrack to "The Fog" of late).

Nope. I actually quite like the energy drain power of a vampire, but it ONLY activates on a slam attack, so if you don't want a vampire to do it, have the vampire do something other than a slam.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Does Alkenstar have their own gun-makers outside of Dongun Hold itself, or are their guns exclusively Dongun Hold imports? Also, it's well-known that they guard the secrets of manufacturing these things well to maintain a monopoly on their sale...but how do they react to one of their own doing a firearm start-up in another land? Would they send assassins after such an entrepreneur or would giving Alkenstar and Dongun hold a cut mollify them, the character considering that a small price to pay for the opportunity to modernize a nation's army with mass-produced firearms?

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Cole Deschain wrote:
More serious question: With a lot of the, for lack of a better term, more famous Mythos beasties entering print via Strange Aeons and prior entries, are there any Mythos critters you have no interest in getting into Pathfinder?
Yes, but I'm not gonna pick on them (and thus the authors who created them, who in some cases are still alive) by calling them out on some sort of mythos walk of shame.

Wisdom 16+

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Sending a Great Old One to heaven will likely solve the problem short term, but give you a BIGGER Problem when the rulers of Heaven send the Great Old One right back AND then follow up with their own investigation to figure out why some supposedly "good guy PCs" sent something like that to Heaven where it caused a LOT of damage. So, such a tactic would end up with you having to deal with the Great Old One again PLUS deal with angry angels.

I love this explanation! cool! :)

Follow up: would the Abyss thus be the best 'dumping ground' for such high powered beings, since it is nigh infinite AND composed of several demon lords/warring factions? (it seems to me the Maelstrom is just too fluid and reaches to every plane, thus being kind of a bad idea). Would sending a Great Old One to the Abyss thus 'keep the demons busy for a long time', i.e. a win-win situation?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hi James,

Hope you took some relaxing time to yourself over the holiday weekend.

My questions:

Since we have both Skum and Deep Ones in Pathfinder, and I think, (but please correct me if I am wrong) Skum were earlier edition's answer to Deep Ones, how do you see them interacting since we have both in Golarion? As foes? Allies? Competitors for the favor of the Great Old Ones?

Thanks for your answers and dedication to this thread!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Does Alkenstar have their own gun-makers outside of Dongun Hold itself, or are their guns exclusively Dongun Hold imports? Also, it's well-known that they guard the secrets of manufacturing these things well to maintain a monopoly on their sale...but how do they react to one of their own doing a firearm start-up in another land? Would they send assassins after such an entrepreneur or would giving Alkenstar and Dongun hold a cut mollify them, the character considering that a small price to pay for the opportunity to modernize a nation's army with mass-produced firearms?

There are gun-makers in both Dongun Hold and Alkenstar. And elsewhere. The more you have gunslingers in your game, the more widespread gunsmithing should be, so that PC gunslingers aren't crippled. (For the same reason that if you have wizard PCs you shouldn't run a game where paper is as rare as gold, or if you have a fighter PC you shouldn't run a game where combat never happens.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Sending a Great Old One to heaven will likely solve the problem short term, but give you a BIGGER Problem when the rulers of Heaven send the Great Old One right back AND then follow up with their own investigation to figure out why some supposedly "good guy PCs" sent something like that to Heaven where it caused a LOT of damage. So, such a tactic would end up with you having to deal with the Great Old One again PLUS deal with angry angels.

I love this explanation! cool! :)

Follow up: would the Abyss thus be the best 'dumping ground' for such high powered beings, since it is nigh infinite AND composed of several demon lords/warring factions? (it seems to me the Maelstrom is just too fluid and reaches to every plane, thus being kind of a bad idea). Would sending a Great Old One to the Abyss thus 'keep the demons busy for a long time', i.e. a win-win situation?

Nope. The "dumping ground" tactic is more or less a bad idea all around. If you MUST do it, then pick the dumping ground whose lords and rulers you're most willing to deal with as fallout from your tactic.

Dumping a Great Old One in the Abyss would more or less have the same result as dumping it on Heaven, except you'll be dealing with demons and demon lords instead of angels and empyreal lords.

The BEST tactic against a Great Old One is to use powerful magic to imprison them/lock them away on the Material Plane. Which is kinda how it works in the stories.

OH and keep in mind that plane shifting a Great Old one is probably not gonna solve your problems for long, since Bokrug can cast plane shift at will, Cthulhu can astral project at will and cast gate three times a day and mythic wish once a day, and Hastur can astral project and grant wishes at will. Sending any of these three to another plane is only gonna distract them for a few rounds if they really want to get back to you and mess with you.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.
MeanDM wrote:

Hi James,

Hope you took some relaxing time to yourself over the holiday weekend.

My questions:

Since we have both Skum and Deep Ones in Pathfinder, and I think, (but please correct me if I am wrong) Skum were earlier edition's answer to Deep Ones, how do you see them interacting since we have both in Golarion? As foes? Allies? Competitors for the favor of the Great Old Ones?

Thanks for your answers and dedication to this thread!

They'd interact as foes. Culturally, I see deep ones being FAR more religious with more divine spellcasters among their kind, and the skum should have more fighters and martial characters and if they go spellcasting, should probably go as wizards.

Skum, as agents of the aboleths, who are anti-faith and anti-religion, should skew toward atheism and the like themselves. Whereas deep ones should be VERY religious, with their own most powerful members gaining the ability to grant spells. That difference in and of itself should be more than enough to set the two races at odds.

In time, I'd love to skew skum as more of an underground race and have deep ones be the surface ocean race.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
MeanDM wrote:

Hi James,

Hope you took some relaxing time to yourself over the holiday weekend.

My questions:

Since we have both Skum and Deep Ones in Pathfinder, and I think, (but please correct me if I am wrong) Skum were earlier edition's answer to Deep Ones, how do you see them interacting since we have both in Golarion? As foes? Allies? Competitors for the favor of the Great Old Ones?

Thanks for your answers and dedication to this thread!

They'd interact as foes. Culturally, I see deep ones being FAR more religious with more divine spellcasters among their kind, and the skum should have more fighters and martial characters and if they go spellcasting, should probably go as wizards.

Skum, as agents of the aboleths, who are anti-faith and anti-religion, should skew toward atheism and the like themselves. Whereas deep ones should be VERY religious, with their own most powerful members gaining the ability to grant spells. That difference in and of itself should be more than enough to set the two races at odds.

In time, I'd love to skew skum as more of an underground race and have deep ones be the surface ocean race.

So if a Skum and a Deep One had a baby would it be a Mystic Theurge?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
MeanDM wrote:

Hi James,

Hope you took some relaxing time to yourself over the holiday weekend.

My questions:

Since we have both Skum and Deep Ones in Pathfinder, and I think, (but please correct me if I am wrong) Skum were earlier edition's answer to Deep Ones, how do you see them interacting since we have both in Golarion? As foes? Allies? Competitors for the favor of the Great Old Ones?

Thanks for your answers and dedication to this thread!

They'd interact as foes. Culturally, I see deep ones being FAR more religious with more divine spellcasters among their kind, and the skum should have more fighters and martial characters and if they go spellcasting, should probably go as wizards.

Skum, as agents of the aboleths, who are anti-faith and anti-religion, should skew toward atheism and the like themselves. Whereas deep ones should be VERY religious, with their own most powerful members gaining the ability to grant spells. That difference in and of itself should be more than enough to set the two races at odds.

In time, I'd love to skew skum as more of an underground race and have deep ones be the surface ocean race.

So if a Skum and a Deep One had a baby would it be a Mystic Theurge?

Oh my no. It'd be a soggy eldritch version of "Saga."


Does this sound like a game that would interest you?

Spoiler:
[sound of howling wind]

On a world beyond time

[zooming across a landscape of red sand]

In a land beyond the desert

[shifting, zooming along a canal]

In a city without compassion

[the ziggurat looms in the distance, the sprawl of the city rushes by below us as we zoom in on its top]

[we settle and circle on a priest atop the ziggurat. his clothes are yellow silk, but he’s showing plenty of muscled, shining skin. his head is unnaturally oval. he’s covered in tattoos and ritual paint designs, and stands with a wicked knife over a silent-screaming sacrificial victim]

[closeup on the victim’s face]

[shots of the shouting crowd, eager for blood]

[close on the knife, then on the roaring priest as he stabs it downwards]

[lock on the knife as it stabs downward — and is blocked by a rapier shining in the martian noon — sparks flying from the impact]

[close on the face of a man with a beard and an extravagant hat. he’s holding the rapier]

[music with a pumping drumbeat kicks in]

[another scene of the swordsman in the hat, this time walking through a crowd of ragged but stylish people that parts like the red sea. he’s got a babe in one arm and a flintlock laser pistol in the other]

[cut to a hover chariot racing through the desert. a woman on a mechanical horse pulls even with it. she aims and fires a flintlaser. the chariot spins, flips over, cut to the woman’s horse rearing over the driver]

Die for honor

[the bearded swordsman plummeting from a great height]

[a gorilla artillery man firing a howitzer at figures mounted on flying beasts]

[the bearded man pulling a dancing girl to him by the waist]

Live for everything

[silhouetted figures duelling with swords on a telegraph wire above the city]

[the gunslinger girl crushing a guy’s mouth to hers]

Cavaliers of Mars

Spoiler:
It’s duels among towered tombs, it’s adventure in dusty desert towns, it’s a sandstorm lifting to reveal a spectacular city built of colored glass. It’s Milady de Winter and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser and Julie d’Aubigny pulling off the heist of the century from an immortal witch-queen’s shadowed citadel. It’s love affairs and tragedy and the melancholic beauty of a fading world. It’s about people set apart not by blessings or curses or forbidden knowledge, but by their luck and their laughter at death.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
MeanDM wrote:

Hi James,

Hope you took some relaxing time to yourself over the holiday weekend.

My questions:

Since we have both Skum and Deep Ones in Pathfinder, and I think, (but please correct me if I am wrong) Skum were earlier edition's answer to Deep Ones, how do you see them interacting since we have both in Golarion? As foes? Allies? Competitors for the favor of the Great Old Ones?

Thanks for your answers and dedication to this thread!

They'd interact as foes. Culturally, I see deep ones being FAR more religious with more divine spellcasters among their kind, and the skum should have more fighters and martial characters and if they go spellcasting, should probably go as wizards.

Skum, as agents of the aboleths, who are anti-faith and anti-religion, should skew toward atheism and the like themselves. Whereas deep ones should be VERY religious, with their own most powerful members gaining the ability to grant spells. That difference in and of itself should be more than enough to set the two races at odds.

In time, I'd love to skew skum as more of an underground race and have deep ones be the surface ocean race.

Carrion Crown SPOILERS!:
So does that mean the Dagon-worshiping skum in Wake of the Watcher are heretics or something, as Illmarsh is basically Innsmouth? Or would it be better for GMs to swap them for genuine Deep Ones now that they're here?
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