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Hey James, on page 20 in the book inner sea faiths there is a picture of a green dragon with an orangey red beard under the Apsu section. I have seen the picture used for both Apsu and the Nirvana Dragon. I would assume that because it's the latest book that the picture must be for Apsu, but he is described in the book as looking like a silver dragon, and he has another picture in that book where he does look like a silver dragon. So I was just wondering is that Apsu, the Nirvana Dragon, or someone else?

Mort the Cleverly Named |
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Depends on the nature of the sacrifice, but yes, it can. In order to damn a soul to Hell or wherever, regardless of the alignment of the person in life, there needs to be either a special ritual or a special tool or a special location or a special ability in play to ensure the soul is damned. Such a soul is STILL sorted by Pharasma, but since the right conditions were in place, she sends it on to wherever it was supposed to go. Don't forget that Pharasma is not your friend. She's not good. Nor is she evil. If it's a soul's fate to be damned after being sacrificed, so be it.
Can this work in the opposite direction? Would it be possible for, say, a legally ordained court of Iomedae to condemn a criminal to death and use a ritual/tool/location/ability so their soul gets sent to Heaven to be locked away instead of being sent to Hell or the Abyss or wherever, so their soul can't go on to reinforce an opponent?
Would the answer be different for, say, a CE priest of Calistria doing a human sacrifice, or an LE priest of Abadar doing an execution (with the same sort of intent and circumstance, of course)?
Ooh... and what about the various gods Pharasma personally despises, and her own worshipers? Could the correct ritual/location/etc have her condemn the souls of her own worshipers to the hands of Urgathoa, Zyphus, Orcus, or Sifkesh, when they enter her court for judgment?

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how is it decided where a vigilante(class) goes where they die it must be pretty hectic with them having two alignments.
Pharasma, being a deity, knows how to do a LOT of things we mortals do not.
But, vigilantie alignments can't differ too much, so the end result is an average of the two roles, more or less... or if one is obviously the "real" one, then that works as well.

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James Jacobs wrote:Depends on the nature of the sacrifice, but yes, it can. In order to damn a soul to Hell or wherever, regardless of the alignment of the person in life, there needs to be either a special ritual or a special tool or a special location or a special ability in play to ensure the soul is damned. Such a soul is STILL sorted by Pharasma, but since the right conditions were in place, she sends it on to wherever it was supposed to go. Don't forget that Pharasma is not your friend. She's not good. Nor is she evil. If it's a soul's fate to be damned after being sacrificed, so be it.Can this work in the opposite direction? Would it be possible for, say, a legally ordained court of Iomedae to condemn a criminal to death and use a ritual/tool/location/ability so their soul gets sent to Heaven to be locked away instead of being sent to Hell or the Abyss or wherever, so their soul can't go on to reinforce an opponent?
Would the answer be different for, say, a CE priest of Calistria doing a human sacrifice, or an LE priest of Abadar doing an execution (with the same sort of intent and circumstance, of course)?
Ooh... and what about the various gods Pharasma personally despises, and her own worshipers? Could the correct ritual/location/etc have her condemn the souls of her own worshipers to the hands of Urgathoa, Zyphus, Orcus, or Sifkesh, when they enter her court for judgment?
Not really. Redemption is harder, and what works for evil is not always mirrored by good. Good faiths simply don't work that way.
And Pharasmins are absolutely not protected any more so than anyone else from this type of grim fate. Whether or not Pharasma has no control or she's complicit or whatever is unknown, and she's not telling...

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Hey James, on page 20 in the book inner sea faiths there is a picture of a green dragon with an orangey red beard under the Apsu section. I have seen the picture used for both Apsu and the Nirvana Dragon. I would assume that because it's the latest book that the picture must be for Apsu, but he is described in the book as looking like a silver dragon, and he has another picture in that book where he does look like a silver dragon. So I was just wondering is that Apsu, the Nirvana Dragon, or someone else?
That's Apsu. (There was some confusion at Paizo during development about that—basically, some of the developers forgot or didn't realize that I had decided to make that dragon into Apsu, and some somewhat incorrect artwork and stuff got in to print in Inner Sea Faiths, alas.)
The "nirvana dragon" is something that's more or less been left behind. It was never identified in print as being that creature in any event.

Paladin of Baha-who? |
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Can this work in the opposite direction? Would it be possible for, say, a legally ordained court of Iomedae to condemn a criminal to death and use a ritual/tool/location/ability so their soul gets sent to Heaven to be locked away instead of being sent to Hell or the Abyss or wherever, so their soul can't go on to reinforce an opponent?
Not to step on anyone's toes, but this is approximately the plot of James L. Sutter's The Redemption Engine.
Question for James (Jacobs): I would love to see that novel you speak of, how likely is it to occur? Very likely, somewhat likely, or not very likely, or would that be telling?

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Aside from Galt, are there any Inner Sea nations whose primary champions/boosters are no longer with Paizo?
Galt's champion never left Paizo, so that's not really one that counts.
There are several that were once championed by folks who aren't at Paizo any more... the major ones that come to mind off the top of my head are Brevoy, Darkmoon Vale/Andoran, and the Mana Wastes/Alkenstar. Of course, we still do things with those now and then, so it's not like when someone leaves Paizo or passes away the regions they once championed get mothballed...

Snowsarn |

I hope "Very Likely."
Do you know approximately how much time you will need to write your novel?
Does that give you an idea for when you can fit that amount of time into your schedule?
I know you like elves and dislike dwarves, is there some one at Paizo who is the other way around?

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James Jacobs wrote:I hope "Very Likely."Do you know approximately how much time you will need to write your novel?
Does that give you an idea for when you can fit that amount of time into your schedule?
I know you like elves and dislike dwarves, is there some one at Paizo who is the other way around?
I've never written a novel, but I know the size of a novel and how long it's taken other people to write a novel. I'm pretty sure I could bang it all out in a few months of focused work. Fitting that into my schedule when I have time to write and the energy/inspiration to write at the same time is gonna be the tricky part of it.
There are certainly folks who like dwarves at Paizo, but I'm not 100% sure they are an exact mirror of me in that regard in disliking elves.

Snowsarn |

I can imagine it would be difficult as you're a very busy man, but we do love your work :-)
Some questions about the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition:
Looking at the awesome piece of art on page 232, I wonder what spell is Kyra using, to make that cool energy shield that Mokmurian is trying to get around?
I noticed in Hook Mountain Massacre that neither Vale Temros nor Lucrecia have improved (or even greater) two-weapon fighting but still have iterative attacks, an error I assume?
Should I redistribute their feats to get the requirements for their attacks?

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Dear JJ.
I noticed that now ALL Kingmaker AP parts are listed as out of print and only parts #3 and #6 have non-mint copies available.
1. Will it have any consequences (and if so which ones) when an AP actually sells out?
2. In a few years when 3 or 4 issues of "Legacy of Fire" have sold out, will you consider doing another Hardcover collection?
3. I recently ordered parts #1 and #2 of "Second Darkness" for €33 each from amazon.de as my local dealer can't order any issues from SD anymore.
Why is that the case, i understand there are a lot of each issue in stock at the paizo warehouse?
Thank you for your time.

Ssyvan |

Hey James,
I was wondering your opinion on this. Unless I've misunderstood, monsters such as Demon's Heresy's Fallen (Or the Bestiary's Wraith which is similar) can use their negative energy attack to heal themselves. But just because something can do something doesn't mean it will, and I was wondering if such creatures ever would?
Specifically with the Fallen, in general would they enjoy their few days of rest until they're rejuvenated, or would they prefer to stay unslain to better seek out someone who can perform their funeral rights?
Especially in the case of incorporeal undead, considering that they can hide inside of objects to heal, this could be a particularly vexing tactic that I'd hesitate to deploy on my players.

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I can imagine it would be difficult as you're a very busy man, but we do love your work :-)
Some questions about the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition:
Looking at the awesome piece of art on page 232, I wonder what spell is Kyra using, to make that cool energy shield that Mokmurian is trying to get around?
I noticed in Hook Mountain Massacre that neither Vale Temros nor Lucrecia have improved (or even greater) two-weapon fighting but still have iterative attacks, an error I assume?
Should I redistribute their feats to get the requirements for their attacks?
In that illustration, Kyra's using shield of the Dawnflower (see Inner Sea World Guide). But it also works for shield of faith, I suppose.
Correct; both Vale and Lucrecia's iterative attacks on their off-hand weapons are errors (they crept in, I suspect, via a bug in the old excel-based stat block generator we used back in that day, and now that we use Hero Lab those types of errors shouldn't show up anymore). No need to change feats. And frankly, if you play them as-is in an encounter, things will be fine as well and the players will never know the difference.

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Hey James,
I was wondering your opinion on this. Unless I've misunderstood, monsters such as Demon's Heresy's Fallen (Or the Bestiary's Wraith which is similar) can use their negative energy attack to heal themselves. But just because something can do something doesn't mean it will, and I was wondering if such creatures ever would?
Specifically with the Fallen, in general would they enjoy their few days of rest until they're rejuvenated, or would they prefer to stay unslain to better seek out someone who can perform their funeral rights?
Especially in the case of incorporeal undead, considering that they can hide inside of objects to heal, this could be a particularly vexing tactic that I'd hesitate to deploy on my players.
Undead monsters are healed by negative energy, including that which they generate themselves, unless the creature text specifically says otherwise.

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Dear JJ.
I noticed that now ALL Kingmaker AP parts are listed as out of print and only parts #3 and #6 have non-mint copies available.
1. Will it have any consequences (and if so which ones) when an AP actually sells out?
2. In a few years when 3 or 4 issues of "Legacy of Fire" have sold out, will you consider doing another Hardcover collection?
3. I recently ordered parts #1 and #2 of "Second Darkness" for €33 each from amazon.de as my local dealer can't order any issues from SD anymore.
Why is that the case, i understand there are a lot of each issue in stock at the paizo warehouse?Thank you for your time.
1) The consequences will be once those sell out, we won't sell them anymore in print. Folks will need to get the PDF or find used copies if they want them. The rate and frequency at which we collect Adventure Paths into hardcovers is VERY slow, and there are no plans to do one for Kingmaker at this point, or really ANY other one what with Crimson Throne coming out soon.
2) There's a LOT more to the "let's do a hardcover" decision than "oh... it's sold out, let's do it." Timing, our interest, customer interest, resources, and more help to inform that decision. And furthermore... We've done more or less 2 hardcover compilations in the span that we've done 18 adventure paths... that's more or less 1 every 4–5 years. At that rate, it'll be 2021 before we do a 3rd one, at which point we'll have something more like 28 APs to consider. AKA: The rate at which we do APs VASTLY OUTPACES the rate at which we compile them. This means we will NEVER compile all of them, and will in the end compile very very few of them. So... don't get your hopes up for a compilation of Kingmaker OR Legacy of fire anytime soon. If ever.
3) What stores stock depends entirely on the combination of the store owner's desire/resources to stock, and what that store's distributor has available. We don't directly stock or sell to stores, including online stores like Amazon. If you want to buy a Paizo book that we've listed as "in stock" but your store doesn't have it, let them know. Often they can special-order a copy from their distributor for you, and if they have enough customers asking for the book, they realize the book's still got legs and order more on their own. Otherwise, your option is to buy direct from us—one of the reasons we sell direct to customers via paizo.com is for this specific reason (even though store owners can often get mad at us for that... especially in cases where their distributor won't play ball and won't supply them with what they need for whatever reason).

Snowblind |
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Hey James.
In the "Inner Sea Gods" Campaign book, there are alternate Paladin codes available for the followers of several deities. The code for Paladins of Abadar explicitly states that they follow the normal Paladin code in addition to their deity specific code. No other alternate codes have this provision - their code is presented as if it is complete. This implies that the alternate codes replace the normal one presented in the CRB. However, as far as I can see it never actually says this explicitly anywhere in ISG.
So, are the deity specific Paladin codes meant to be additions to the normal Paladin codes, or are they wholesale replacements? For example, could a Paladin of Shelyn use knockout poison to capture an evil person if they believe that poison is the only reasonable way to save a potentially redeemable creature without endangering the lives of innocents?
Thanks for your time.

Snowsarn |

Hi James
So I finally saw Mad Max Fury Road the other day and I loved it. I know you're a fan too, so I wonder if the two (minor) issues that I had with it is something you agree on:
1) why are they so wasteful with their water, when they live in a wasteland? I know why Immortan Joe does it, but the women on the war rig? It just seemed a bit wrong.
2) I guess I know from a movie producer perspective that they want some beautiful women around, but I wondered why Furiosa (only) tried to rescue the pretty wives (or what they are called) and not the poor and less attactive (in many eyes) women who were forcefully millked?
Cheers

Potto |
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Hey Mr. Jacobs!
To my best knowledge, Pathfinder does not currently have a stat block for tapirs. Is this some long kept surprise you there at Paizo HQ are still waiting to unveil for us fans of tapirs?
If so, what would be a better time for you guys to release stats for this awesome animal than on April 27th - The World Tapir Day!

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Hey James.
In the "Inner Sea Gods" Campaign book, there are alternate Paladin codes available for the followers of several deities. The code for Paladins of Abadar explicitly states that they follow the normal Paladin code in addition to their deity specific code. No other alternate codes have this provision - their code is presented as if it is complete. This implies that the alternate codes replace the normal one presented in the CRB. However, as far as I can see it never actually says this explicitly anywhere in ISG.
So, are the deity specific Paladin codes meant to be additions to the normal Paladin codes, or are they wholesale replacements? For example, could a Paladin of Shelyn use knockout poison to capture an evil person if they believe that poison is the only reasonable way to save a potentially redeemable creature without endangering the lives of innocents?
Thanks for your time.
The deity-specific paladin codes are 100% meant to exist the "normal" paladin code. The normal code is for world-neutral generic paladins, and once a paladin worships a deity on Golarion, they're no longer world-neutral and must follow deity specific codes.
If a code doesn't cover a topic, then the paladin needs to extrapolate from the code. In this case, nothing in Shelyn's code says anything about using ANY sort of poison, so she's perfectly fine using knockout poison or any other to help her live up to the code.
(Remember, while poison is often used by assassins and other evil characters, poison itself is NOT evil. Guardian nagas and couatls both have poison that can kill outright, and both of them are lawful good. It's how you use the poison that affects alignment, as with any other tool, not the mere fact that you use it.)

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Hi James
So I finally saw Mad Max Fury Road the other day and I loved it. I know you're a fan too, so I wonder if the two (minor) issues that I had with it is something you agree on:
1) why are they so wasteful with their water, when they live in a wasteland? I know why Immortan Joe does it, but the women on the war rig? It just seemed a bit wrong.
2) I guess I know from a movie producer perspective that they want some beautiful women around, but I wondered why Furiosa (only) tried to rescue the pretty wives (or what they are called) and not the poor and less attactive (in many eyes) women who were forcefully millked?
Cheers
My answers, extracted from in-movie info and logic...
Short Versions:
1) Because hosing off is physically and mentally rejuvenating for someone in that situation
2) Because the other women weren't healthy enough to risk a grueling escape
Long Versions
1) Try spending hours locked up in tight, filthy metal cage in the desert in blistering heat and when you come out of that, hosing down with water to rehydrate and clean up and generally just feel human again won't seem like a wast at all. Furthermore, they have plenty of water to make it to where they intend to go (that there's no water there for them is irrelevant at that point since they haven't discovered that yet), and on top of that if they ARE caught, leaving little to no water or other resources for the War Boys to recover is sound, if "scorched earth," tactics.
2) The nature of the harem is that it's secluded and isolated so that Joe is the only one really who can get to it, and that means that sneaking those girls out is easier, since until Joe goes back there, no one will know they're missing. By focusing on just those girls, Furiosa gets the head start she needs before the escape attempt is obvious and Joe's warband gives chase. Furthermore, her resources are very limited; she can only take a few girls with her because of the resources needed and most importantly because the hiding spot in the rig couldn't accommodate more than the few women she escaped with. But perhaps most importantly, those women didn't have lots of mutations or deformities and were fit and weren't obese or old. They were mobile, strong enough to survive the ordeals, and could physically fit in the hiding spot. Bringing along even a single physical weak link in the group would have slowed them down and reduced their chance to survive for many reasons. Having been very overweight at one point in my life and now being pretty close to not being overweight, I was shocked to find out that it's normal not to lose your breath and sweat hard simply by walking up a flight of stairs. Doing the things the escapees do in the movie is a LOT more grueling and taxing on the body than walking up a single flight of stairs, and had I been along for that ride, I would have held everyone back and gotten myself and probably the others killed. That's a pretty rough and perhaps cruel law of the apocalyptic world, but that doesn't mean that it's not the truth.

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Who are the people who left/passed away that were champions for those regions and what regions did each person champion?
This sounds like you're asking me to list every single "hero or champion" for every location of note on Golarion. That's not a question I can answer without providing a book or three's worth of text. Sorry... you'll need to narrow the scope of your question a LOT before I can answer, and event hen, I probably won't since in most cases, we haven't designed lists of the nature you're looking for regarding numerous champions of each region. They do exist. Nirmath in Nirmathas for one.

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Thomas Seitz wrote:Nope, but I think it proves that video games have come a long way though, especially since eye of the beholder II was one of the best games of its era.James Jacobs,
Do you think watching Wes Schnieder play Eye of the Beholder II proves that game design back then was whack?
Speaking of coming a long way, have you gotten to play Dark Souls 3 yet?

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Hey Mr. Jacobs!
To my best knowledge, Pathfinder does not currently have a stat block for tapirs. Is this some long kept surprise you there at Paizo HQ are still waiting to unveil for us fans of tapirs?
If so, what would be a better time for you guys to release stats for this awesome animal than on April 27th - The World Tapir Day!
Since you asked me, and not Erik, my response is "Tapirs are not very appropriate or interesting creatures for a game that involves your characters facing dragons and demons and giant spiders and vampires and so on. If you want a tapir in your game, just use the stats for a pig."

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Dragon78 wrote:Who are the people who left/passed away that were champions for those regions and what regions did each person champion?This sounds like you're asking me to list every single "hero or champion" for every location of note on Golarion. That's not a question I can answer without providing a book or three's worth of text. Sorry... you'll need to narrow the scope of your question a LOT before I can answer, and event hen, I probably won't since in most cases, we haven't designed lists of the nature you're looking for regarding numerous champions of each region. They do exist. Nirmath in Nirmathas for one.
Um, I think Dragon might have meant which Paizo staff championed said regions.

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ManLoris wrote:Since you asked me, and not Erik, my response is "Tapirs are not very appropriate or interesting creatures for a game that involves your characters facing dragons and demons and giant spiders and vampires and so on. If you want a tapir in your game, just use the stats for a pig."Hey Mr. Jacobs!
To my best knowledge, Pathfinder does not currently have a stat block for tapirs. Is this some long kept surprise you there at Paizo HQ are still waiting to unveil for us fans of tapirs?
If so, what would be a better time for you guys to release stats for this awesome animal than on April 27th - The World Tapir Day!
What do you think Erik's response would be?

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James Jacobs wrote:Speaking of coming a long way, have you gotten to play Dark Souls 3 yet?Thomas Seitz wrote:Nope, but I think it proves that video games have come a long way though, especially since eye of the beholder II was one of the best games of its era.James Jacobs,
Do you think watching Wes Schnieder play Eye of the Beholder II proves that game design back then was whack?
Yup! Loving the HELL out of the game so far. I've taken down 2 bosses and just last night came upon the third and it promptly wrecked me so I went to bed.

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Rysky wrote:Yup! Loving the HELL out of the game so far. I've taken down 2 bosses and just last night came upon the third and it promptly wrecked me so I went to bed.James Jacobs wrote:Speaking of coming a long way, have you gotten to play Dark Souls 3 yet?Thomas Seitz wrote:Nope, but I think it proves that video games have come a long way though, especially since eye of the beholder II was one of the best games of its era.James Jacobs,
Do you think watching Wes Schnieder play Eye of the Beholder II proves that game design back then was whack?
Nice! Except for the getting wrecked thing :3
Which boss was it?
Are you using a similar build in your other games or are you trying something new?

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James Jacobs wrote:Um, I think Dragon might have meant which Paizo staff championed said regions.Dragon78 wrote:Who are the people who left/passed away that were champions for those regions and what regions did each person champion?This sounds like you're asking me to list every single "hero or champion" for every location of note on Golarion. That's not a question I can answer without providing a book or three's worth of text. Sorry... you'll need to narrow the scope of your question a LOT before I can answer, and event hen, I probably won't since in most cases, we haven't designed lists of the nature you're looking for regarding numerous champions of each region. They do exist. Nirmath in Nirmathas for one.
OH!
That makes more sense.
Of the people who were part of the editorial team back then when we first started detailing the world, Jeremy has moved on to pursue an entirely different career (he was Brevoy's source).
Mike passed away a while back, unfortunately; he not only championed areas like Darkmoon Vale, and Korvosa, but was the source of the Mana Wastes and Alkenstar. Among other things, Mike's the reason we have firearms in Golarion. I still miss ya, Mike!

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James Jacobs wrote:Rysky wrote:Yup! Loving the HELL out of the game so far. I've taken down 2 bosses and just last night came upon the third and it promptly wrecked me so I went to bed.James Jacobs wrote:Speaking of coming a long way, have you gotten to play Dark Souls 3 yet?Thomas Seitz wrote:Nope, but I think it proves that video games have come a long way though, especially since eye of the beholder II was one of the best games of its era.James Jacobs,
Do you think watching Wes Schnieder play Eye of the Beholder II proves that game design back then was whack?
Nice! Except for the getting wrecked thing :3
Which boss was it?
Are you using a similar build in your other games or are you trying something new?
The boss that murdered me (most recently) was...
I'm going with the same basic build I ended up with in Dark Souls and went with from the start in Dark Souls II; a light armor mobile katana and magic wielding woman.

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James Jacobs wrote:What do you think Erik's response would be?ManLoris wrote:Since you asked me, and not Erik, my response is "Tapirs are not very appropriate or interesting creatures for a game that involves your characters facing dragons and demons and giant spiders and vampires and so on. If you want a tapir in your game, just use the stats for a pig."Hey Mr. Jacobs!
To my best knowledge, Pathfinder does not currently have a stat block for tapirs. Is this some long kept surprise you there at Paizo HQ are still waiting to unveil for us fans of tapirs?
If so, what would be a better time for you guys to release stats for this awesome animal than on April 27th - The World Tapir Day!
Erik would say: "We don't print statistics for deities."

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James Jacobs wrote:Well my character concept for Goblin who just wants to dance will have to go back to the drawing board.NenkotaMoon wrote:So take away the knives and it probably look rather cute.Take away the knives and they'll just use sticks and torches and whatever is at hand.
Not at all. I'm not the one who gets to say what character concept you can or can't play. That's your GM's call.
If you WERE in my game, and I was your GM, I wouldn't let you play a goblin at all because they're monsters, not heroes. Goblins in my games behave the way they do in adventures I write. They're energetic and crazy and have a deep layer of black comedy to them, but they'll also beat your baby unconscious with a puppy and then eat the still gasping for life remains alive while you watch. They're bad.

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Rysky wrote:James Jacobs wrote:Rysky wrote:Yup! Loving the HELL out of the game so far. I've taken down 2 bosses and just last night came upon the third and it promptly wrecked me so I went to bed.James Jacobs wrote:Speaking of coming a long way, have you gotten to play Dark Souls 3 yet?Thomas Seitz wrote:Nope, but I think it proves that video games have come a long way though, especially since eye of the beholder II was one of the best games of its era.James Jacobs,
Do you think watching Wes Schnieder play Eye of the Beholder II proves that game design back then was whack?
Nice! Except for the getting wrecked thing :3
Which boss was it?
Are you using a similar build in your other games or are you trying something new?
The boss that murdered me (most recently) was... ** spoiler omitted **
I'm going with the same basic build I ended up with in Dark Souls and went with from the start in Dark Souls II; a light armor mobile katana and magic wielding woman.
I hate that boss too >_<
In that case, were you happy to find a katana that early in the game?

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In that case, were you happy to find a katana that early in the game?
I was indeed. Until that point I was using the bandit's knife, a mail breaker, and a short bow. I've since upgraded to a longbow, and might try out a rapier once I find one... but I've already upgraded my katana to +4 so that's gonna stick around no matter what. In the end, I'll likely enhance a different weapon with fire and raw damage and the other gem options too for special case fights.

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James,
I was reading some notes about your Shadows under Sandpoint game. There is some interest in using similar material with a group I have. Is there any way to get ahold of more reference material to use? WRT Kanker, and the like?
Thanks,
Bill
At this point, beyond some scattered notes associated with that game that crept into some of the back matter articles in the comics, the Magnimar Book, the PCs in NPC guide, the Sandpoint traits in Advanced Player's Guide, and the Ilvarandin entry in Lost Cities, there's not a lot of info about Shadows under Sandpoint out there for folks to run with.
Would folks be interested in seeing more stuff from Shadows Under Sandpoint?