It seems this spell may work in 1 of 2 ways:
A touch spell that you can hold the charge with, but that you can only deliver once per round (which sounds odd compared to how chill touch works). If this is the case, does the dex damage from each touch last 1 round per level, or does all the dex damage disappear after 1 round/level starting from the time it was cast? If the latter, can you hold the charge for longer than 1 round per level?
OR is it a buff that allows you to deliver a touch attack each round for 1 round per level? If so, is the dex damage permenant or does it disappear after 1 round per level?
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It is a buff that gives a touch attack that deals 1d4 dex damage. In addition to this effect it also slows the target as per the normal rules for the slow spell for a single round. A fort save negates the slow but not the damage.
The damage lasts indefinitely or until it is healed through rest or other means including those listed on the spell. It does not fade the following round.
It is a buff that gives a touch attack that deals 1d4 dex damage. In addition to this effect it also slows the target as per the normal rules for the slow spell for a single round. A fort save negates the slow but not the damage.
The damage lasts indefinitely or until it is healed through rest or other means including those listed on the spell. It does not fade the following round.
That's what I think it would be. However, it also says
Range: touch
Target: creature or creatures touched (up to one per level)
That seems to give some indication that it works like a normal touch spell? Contrast Elemental Touch, which has a range of "personal" and a target of "you".
All it means is that you can give another creature this ability as a buff, think giving it to a monk so he can make these attacks for you.That seems to give some indication that it works like a normal touch spell? Contrast Elemental Touch, which has a range of "personal" and a target of "you".
On the contrary, it says "creature or creatureS touched"...so you can get multiple allies to deliver it for you? Sounds a little silly that way, doesn't it?
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On the contrary, it says "creature or creatureS touched"...so you can get multiple allies to deliver it for you? Sounds a little silly that way, doesn't it?All it means is that you can give another creature this ability as a buff, think giving it to a monk so he can make these attacks for you.That seems to give some indication that it works like a normal touch spell? Contrast Elemental Touch, which has a range of "personal" and a target of "you".
Compare it to Burning gaze, which has a range of personal and grants you an ability that is somewhat comparable. This has a specific target of You and also a duration.
There are a number of spells you can cast on multiple creatures touched and this is just another example of this such thing. The rules on these spells dictate that you can touch up to 8 willing creatures as part of casting the spell as long as you are adjacent to them.
On the contrary, it says "creature or creatureS touched"...so you can get multiple allies to deliver it for you? Sounds a little silly that way, doesn't it?All it means is that you can give another creature this ability as a buff, think giving it to a monk so he can make these attacks for you.That seems to give some indication that it works like a normal touch spell? Contrast Elemental Touch, which has a range of "personal" and a target of "you".
Compare it to Burning gaze, which has a range of personal and grants you an ability that is somewhat comparable. This has a specific target of You and also a duration.
There are a number of spells you can cast on multiple creatures touched and this is just another example of this such thing. The rules on these spells dictate that you can touch up to 8 willing creatures as part of casting the spell as long as you are adjacent to them.
So you're saying that you can buff up to 9 characters (yourself included) with the ability to deal 1d4 dex damage and a chance to slow with a touch attack? For 1 round per level? That seems a little strong, don't you think? (Not that I'm complaining, mind you, since I like playing arcane casters.)
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Damn the post eating monster I guess my long well written post will just be locked away forever with my TV remote and all those socks.
Quick and dirty it is then.
The 8 people touched as part of the casting includes yourself so 8 ppl max.
I don't think it is out of line no, the wizard could get this at level 7 earliest and anyone using the touch has to first hit them with the touch attack which while isn't super hard to to is still not impossible to miss. Then they have to use that attack which takes a standard action and deals so traditional HP damage. It also has a pretty short duration so I don't see it as OP, but is is for sure a good spell, perfect range of power level if you ask me.
Damn the post eating monster I guess my long well written post will just be locked away forever with my TV remote and all those socks.
Quick and dirty it is then.
The 8 people touched as part of the casting includes yourself so 8 ppl max.
I don't think it is out of line no, the wizard could get this at level 7 earliest and anyone using the touch has to first hit them with the touch attack which while isn't super hard to to is still not impossible to miss. Then they have to use that attack which takes a standard action and deals so traditional HP damage. It also has a pretty short duration so I don't see it as OP, but is is for sure a good spell, perfect range of power level if you ask me.
Hmm...would make an awesome spell to tack onto summons though.
Also, the spell does say "your touch" and "creatures you touch", which leads me to believe that it might have been intended as a single-person buff? What do others think?
Damn the post eating monster I guess my long well written post will just be locked away forever with my TV remote and all those socks.
Quick and dirty it is then.
The 8 people touched as part of the casting includes yourself so 8 ppl max.
I don't think it is out of line no, the wizard could get this at level 7 earliest and anyone using the touch has to first hit them with the touch attack which while isn't super hard to to is still not impossible to miss. Then they have to use that attack which takes a standard action and deals so traditional HP damage. It also has a pretty short duration so I don't see it as OP, but is is for sure a good spell, perfect range of power level if you ask me.
Hmm...would make an awesome spell to tack onto summons though.
Also, the spell does say "your touch" and "creatures you touch", which leads me to believe that it might have been intended as a single-person buff? What do others think?
Is anyone else going to try to field this question?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah, I will, since I wrote the spell.
It's an attack spell that you use. You touch people, they take Dex damage (which lasts until healed) and save or be slowed (which lasts for 1 round).
You can hold the charge on it; it lasts until you use up all of your touches (1/level) or until you cast another spell, per usual for touch spells.
For reference, it uses the same language as the chill touch spell.
I'm actually rather surprised to see an interpretation that construes the spell as a buff spell you would cast on other people that would in turn let THEM cast it. Are there other damaging touch spells work that way? I can't think of any.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It is a buff that gives a touch attack that deals 1d4 dex damage. In addition to this effect it also slows the target as per the normal rules for the slow spell for a single round. A fort save negates the slow but not the damage.
The damage lasts indefinitely or until it is healed through rest or other means including those listed on the spell. It does not fade the following round.
That's what I think it would be. However, it also says
Range: touch
Target: creature or creatures touched (up to one per level)That seems to give some indication that it works like a normal touch spell? Contrast Elemental Touch, which has a range of "personal" and a target of "you".
I think elemental touch is the oddball/outlier here:
These touch attack spells have a target of "creature(s) touched": bestow curse, chill touch, contagion, death knell, dispel chaos/evil/good/law, ghoul touch, harm, inflict light/moderate/serious/critical wounds, irresistible dance, ... look, I'm only halfway through the alphabet in the core rules, but so far we have ALL* of the touch attack spells being "Target: creature(s) touched" and NONE of them being "Range: Personal, Target: You."
* Strangely, blight doesn't have a target entry, either in the book or in the PFSRD!
Yeah, I will, since I wrote the spell.
It's an attack spell that you use. You touch people, they take Dex damage (which lasts until healed) and save or be slowed (which lasts for 1 round).
You can hold the charge on it; it lasts until you use up all of your touches (1/level) or until you cast another spell, per usual for touch spells.
For reference, it uses the same language as the chill touch spell.
I'm actually rather surprised to see an interpretation that construes the spell as a buff spell you would cast on other people that would in turn let THEM cast it. Are there other damaging touch spells work that way? I can't think of any.
Thanks so much for commenting! I was reading this thread and thinking: "What the...? That's not how I thought it worked at all..." I was about to post something but I had to go somewhere. Glad the confusion is cleared up. Can't wait to combine this spell with Reach, Extend and other metamagic and potentially dominate for multiple turns with one spell. :3
Although one comment: It doesn't quite use the same language as Chill Touch. ...which did throw me off a bit.
Chill Touch
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
Calcific Touch
School transmutation [earth]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature or creatures touched (up to one per level)
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
Your touch progressively transmutes the substance of creatures you touch into stone. Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and slows the target (as the spell) for 1 round. A successful Fortitude save negates the slow effect but not the ability damage. A target reduced to 0 Dexterity is petrified permanently. Break enchantment, restoration, or stone to flesh can reverse the effects of calcific touch.
Chill Touch has Instantaneous duration while Calcific Touch has 1 round/level duration.
I guess just for my clarification; whether Chill Touch or Calcific Touch, you can only make one Touch attack per turn? If not, how can you use it more than once per turn? (If you Quickened Calcific Touch as a Swift action and cast Calcific Touch as a Standard action, could you do two? lol, just curious.)
Yeah, I will, since I wrote the spell.
It's an attack spell that you use. You touch people, they take Dex damage (which lasts until healed) and save or be slowed (which lasts for 1 round).
You can hold the charge on it; it lasts until you use up all of your touches (1/level) or until you cast another spell, per usual for touch spells.
For reference, it uses the same language as the chill touch spell.
I'm actually rather surprised to see an interpretation that construes the spell as a buff spell you would cast on other people that would in turn let THEM cast it. Are there other damaging touch spells work that way? I can't think of any.
Thanks for the clarification, Jason. It was the 1 round/level duration that caused the confusion. I had thought it would work like chill touch, but suspected it might be otherwise because with chill touch, you can hold the charge indefinitely and deliver as many touches in a round as you have iterative attacks as long as you have "charges" remaining.
So just to clarify, *unlike* chill touch, you can only hold the charge for 1 round per level, and this is what the duration refers to, yes?
If it helps, this spell still promises to be one of my favourite spells in the APG, so thanks for writing it! Am thinking my next character will be an eldritch knight who uses a scimitar in one hand and a reach version of this spell with his off-hand. If nothing else, it will certainly look cool. =)
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It's an attack spell that you use. . . . You can hold the charge on it; it lasts until you use up all of your touches (1/level) or until you cast another spell, per usual for touch spells. . . .
Thanks for the clarification, Jason. On a related note, what if (as the Chort suggests above) this spell were combined with Reach Spell to get a ranged touch attack? Would the unused ranged touch attacks still vanish if the PC were to cast another spell?
My intuition suggests that they would vanish because Reach Spell only affects range and not the other properties of a touch spell. But I'm curious to see if others think that's the best way to look at it.
Slightly (more) off-topic: This spell, combined with some metamagic, looks to me like a good dragon-stopping spell. Assuming that you get past the dragon's spell resistance, a Maximized or Empowered Reach Calcific Touch could shut down a large, low-Dexterity creature in two or three rounds. Of course, the trick would be keeping your mage PC from becoming lunch during those two or three rounds.
It's an attack spell that you use. . . . You can hold the charge on it; it lasts until you use up all of your touches (1/level) or until you cast another spell, per usual for touch spells. . . .Thanks for the clarification, Jason. On a related note, what if (as the Chort suggests above) this spell were combined with Reach Spell to get a ranged touch attack? Would the unused ranged touch attacks still vanish if the PC were to cast another spell?
My intuition suggests that they would vanish because Reach Spell only affects range and not the other properties of a touch spell. But I'm curious to see if others think that's the best way to look at it.
Slightly (more) off-topic: This spell, combined with some metamagic, looks to me like a good dragon-stopping spell. Assuming that you get past the dragon's spell resistance, a Maximized or Empowered Reach Calcific Touch could shut down a large, low-Dexterity creature in two or three rounds. Of course, the trick would be keeping your mage PC from becoming lunch during those two or three rounds.
I see someone is familiar with the old "Shivering touch" spell from WotC's Frostburn book. Affectionately dubbed the "dragon-slaying spell", and promptly banned in the last campaign I played in. XD But yes, these are good questions too. Mr Nelson, if you will?
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Personally, I think Jason`s classification (duration) of Calcific Touch makes the most sense given how it works, and Chill Touch should really have been written (or be Errata´d) to be classed similarly.
On the one attack per turn question: Calcific Touch specifically says that ¨Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack¨ while Chill Touch doesn`t mention any such restriction, and thus simply follows the normal rules for Touch spells (which is just slightly confusing).
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge:
(...)Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
That seems poorly worded to me, since what ¨as part of spell¨ means isn`t obvious. If you read ¨as part of the spell¨ to refer to the effects of the spell, that means that Chill Touch can´t be Held, since it allows multiple targets, but since it has duration: instantaneous, you can`t possibly use those touches (which would be silly). The rules for Holding the Charge should read more like ¨...allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell casting¨, to better convey the INTENT.
Chill Touch itself should really have duration: until Charges are used or another spell is cast.
Another Errata issue with the rule is:
(...) Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
If you want to touch un-willing targets, you need to make an attack roll, which normally must be done via Attack Action or Full Attack Action... but the rules here directly grant you the ability to touch 6 creatures as a full-round action, without restricting that to willing subjects.
Assuming Chill Touch is indeed supposed to function on subsequent rounds despite it`s instantaneous duration, I rather think it`s supposed to be subject to normal attack limitations (Full Attack + any AoO`s) and not some super Flurry which doesn`t even mention the BAB for these 6 touch attacks.
The following questions remain unanswered, for Mr. Nelson's reference:
1. Does the 1 round/level duration refer to the length of time you can hold the charge on this spell for? (It seems from what you've said that this is the case, but I thought I'd confirm it since other touch spells do not have any limit on how long you can hold a charge for. So I thought I'd clarify it once and for all.)
2. Can you still hold the charge on this spell when you apply the reach spell metamagic feat to it?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Although one comment: It doesn't quite use the same language as Chill Touch. ...which did throw me off a bit.
Chill Touch has Instantaneous duration while Calcific Touch has 1 round/level duration.
I guess just for my clarification; whether Chill Touch or Calcific Touch, you can only make one Touch attack per turn? If not, how can you use it more than once per turn? (If you Quickened Calcific Touch as a Swift action and cast Calcific Touch as a Standard action, could you do two? lol, just curious.)
To your last point, it wouldn't work, because by rule, as soon as you cast the next spell, the touch spell you're "holding" dissipates, so the second would replace the first, quickened or no.
As to the first question, though, it's an interesting question and slightly ambiguous whether making touch attacks with a spell uses your iterative BAB in the same way as making unarmed attacks (which do iterate) or if it's more like a natural weapon (which do not). It's not completely clear in the rules and I don't know whether there has been a FAQ answer about touch spells that are usable more than once, as to whether you can iterate with them.
My general thought is that you could touch 1/round as a standard action; however, that is no more than a notion.
It's not unreasonable to have an interpretation like that you can make as many attacks per round as you are entitled, using your iterative bonus, whether for an unarmed attack (with damage) or a touch attack (with no damage). The spell's duration (1 rd/lvl) and the spell's maximum effect (1 touch/lvl) are independent caps. Whenever you reach EITHER of them, the spell ends.
Interestingly, I would say that Extend Spell would extend both the duration cap (2 rds/level) and the duration of the slow (2 rds), but it would have no effect on the touches cap, which would still be 1 touch/level.
Feel free to hit the FAQ flag if you think this question is worthy of FAQing, and if it hasn't been answered already.
1. Does the 1 round/level duration refer to the length of time you can hold the charge on this spell for?
2. Can you still hold the charge on this spell when you apply the reach spell metamagic feat to it?
Calcific Touch gives you a means ¨within the spell¨ (1 per round with duration, not relying on general Touch Spell rules) to affect multiple targets, thus is ineligible for ¨Holding the Touch¨. (see my post above).
I think the rules about Touch Spells in the Combat section cover this the best:As to the first question, though, it's an interesting question and slightly ambiguous whether making touch attacks with a spell uses your iterative BAB in the same way as making unarmed attacks (which do iterate) or if it's more like a natural weapon (which do not). It's not completely clear in the rules and I don't know whether there has been a FAQ answer about touch spells that are usable more than once, as to whether you can iterate with them.
My general thought is that you could touch 1/round as a standard action; however, that is no more than a notion.
It's not unreasonable to have an interpretation like that you can make as many attacks per round as you are entitled, using your iterative bonus, whether for an unarmed attack (with damage) or a touch attack (with no damage). The spell's duration (1 rd/lvl) and the spell's maximum effect (1 touch/lvl) are independent caps. Whenever you reach EITHER of them, the spell ends.
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
So it directly says that you can allow any Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack to deliver the attack, i.e. you can Full Attack with whichever option you have available and every hit can discharge if it hits. What`s really not clear to me is AoO`s: The rules for touching non-allies says that you aren`t considered armed (unless you otherwise would be*) when using any UAS/Natural Attack to deliver the charge... Yet the ¨“Armed” Unarmed Attacks¨ section of the Combat chapter says ¨a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell... count(s) as being armed (see natural attacks).¨ If you aren`t armed, you can`t take an AoO. Yet the Unarmed Attack section (UAS is only used for enemies, not willing allies) says you ARE armed when delivering a Charge. So which is it?
* What`s wierder is that Natural Attacks normally don`t provoke AoO`s in the first place...
Although one comment: It doesn't quite use the same language as Chill Touch. ...which did throw me off a bit.
Chill Touch has Instantaneous duration while Calcific Touch has 1 round/level duration.
I guess just for my clarification; whether Chill Touch or Calcific Touch, you can only make one Touch attack per turn? If not, how can you use it more than once per turn? (If you Quickened Calcific Touch as a Swift action and cast Calcific Touch as a Standard action, could you do two? lol, just curious.)To your last point, it wouldn't work, because by rule, as soon as you cast the next spell, the touch spell you're "holding" dissipates, so the second would replace the first, quickened or no.
As to the first question, though, it's an interesting question and slightly ambiguous whether making touch attacks with a spell uses your iterative BAB in the same way as making unarmed attacks (which do iterate) or if it's more like a natural weapon (which do not). It's not completely clear in the rules and I don't know whether there has been a FAQ answer about touch spells that are usable more than once, as to whether you can iterate with them.
My general thought is that you could touch 1/round as a standard action; however, that is no more than a notion.
It's not unreasonable to have an interpretation like that you can make as many attacks per round as you are entitled, using your iterative bonus, whether for an unarmed attack (with damage) or a touch attack (with no damage). The spell's duration (1 rd/lvl) and the spell's maximum effect (1 touch/lvl) are independent caps. Whenever you reach EITHER of them, the spell ends.
Interestingly, I would say that Extend Spell would extend both the duration cap (2 rds/level) and the duration of the slow (2 rds), but it would have no effect on the touches cap, which would still be 1 touch/level.
Feel free to hit the FAQ flag if you think this question is worthy of FAQing, and if it hasn't been...
Can we take this as an "official errata" that calcific touch can be used with iterative attacks then?
Also, there is still a question about a "reach calcific touch" (which is itself something of a contradiction in terms).
And would you care to comment on whether the dex damage counts as "damage" for the purpose of dazing spell?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The following questions remain unanswered, for Mr. Nelson's reference:
1. Does the 1 round/level duration refer to the length of time you can hold the charge on this spell for? (It seems from what you've said that this is the case, but I thought I'd confirm it since other touch spells do not have any limit on how long you can hold a charge for. So I thought I'd clarify it once and for all.)
The duration indicates the maximum time during which the spell can be active on your hand. An example:
You're a 12th level wizard. You cast the spell. You can make 12 touch attacks with it. You have 12 rounds in which to make them. If 12 rounds elapse, the spell's over, even if you haven't made 12 attacks. If you make 12 attacks, the spell's over, even if 12 rounds haven't elapsed.
It's simply a measure to prevent casting the spell at the beginning of the day (after your long-duration buffs) and just carrying it around all day. Whether you think that's a good design goal or not... YMMV. :)
As to iteratives...
*IF* it's possible to make iterative attacks with a touch spell (which is still somewhat unclear to my reading), you could use your +6/+1 BAB to make 2 touches per round, which would mean you could use up your spell in 6 rounds (4 rounds if you use haste to get 3 attacks/round).
If you can't, then it's 1 attack per round, and if you miss an attack the rounds timer just keeps on ticking.
BTW, the touch spells section seems to indicate that your choice is:
1. Make a touch attack with the spell, inflicting no damage but conveying the spell (does not provoke); OR,
2. Make an unarmed attack with the spell, inflicting normal unarmed damage for your size, ST, etc., *and* conveying the spell (does provoke, unless you have IpvUnStrike).
Clearly you can use iteratives if you're using an unarmed strike. Not so clear is #1, where you're making a touch attack.
2. Can you still hold the charge on this spell when you apply the reach spell metamagic feat to it?
I'll say first of all that the Reach Spell feat needs to get errata'ed and I hope that it does. To wit:
Reach Spell (APG) obsoletes Enlarge Spell (Core).
Enlarge - +1 level, doubles range of spell
Reach - +1 level, quadruples range of spell; or for +2 levels gets you x16 range; the only exception is a spell whose range is already Long.
Reach also lets you turn a touch spell into a ranged spell (which is better than the 3.5 Reach Spell, which was a +2 metamagic and only let you turn touch into close range, ranged touch spell; if I'm reading our PF Reach Spell correctly, it doesn't require a roll to hit; the range goes from touch to close (25+5/2)), which would mean you now auto-hit.
But, that's neither here nor there to your question.
I suppose that once it's been "Reached," it's not a touch spell any more. At that point, you are targeting a spell, which is going to be a standard action each round, so definitely no iteratives. You could target 1 creature/round, auto-hit for Dex damage, save vs. slow. Once the duration runs out, you're done.
Whether the spell would END if you cast another spell (like a held touch spell would) or keep running (like, say eyebite if for some reason you don't target somebody in a given round, or call lightning, flaming sphere, etc.), since it's no longer actually a touch spell, is an open-ended call.
I'd probably run it that it still goes poof if you cast another spell, but that's just because I'm a cruel DM. The rules probably slightly favor letting the duration keep running when not in use.
I guess just for my clarification; whether Chill Touch or Calcific Touch, you can only make one Touch attack per turn? If not, how can you use it more than once per turn? (If you Quickened Calcific Touch as a Swift action and cast Calcific Touch as a Standard action, could you do two? lol, just curious.)To your last point, it wouldn't work, because by rule, as soon as you cast the next spell, the touch spell you're "holding" dissipates, so the second would replace the first, quickened or no.
Calcific Touch has a Duration, it isn`t relying on the Hold a Charge rules. With each spell having it`s own one touch per round limitation, I don`t see any reason why both spell effects could not continue ´independently´, i.e. 2 touches per round between both spells.
Can we take this as an "official errata" that calcific touch can be used with iterative attacks then?
Calcific Touch says: ¨Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and slows the target (as the spell) for 1 round.¨ without specifying the action type. So I`d say that you can Full Attack, but only one attack will discharge a Charge of the spell... i.e. like Stunning Fist in practice.
The duration indicates the maximum time during which the spell can be active on your hand. An example:
You're a 12th level wizard. You cast the spell. You can make 12 touch attacks with it. You have 12 rounds in which to make them. If 12 rounds elapse, the spell's over, even if you haven't made 12 attacks. If you make 12 attacks, the spell's over, even if 12 rounds haven't elapsed.
I don`t think that`s the best way to describe the spell AS WRITTEN. It doesn`t just say X attacks within X rounds. It has an explicit limit of 1 attack per round, completely independent of how touch spells work, so if you touch somebody during your turn you can`t touch another person (or the same person) if they provoke an AoO because you already used the 1 attack per round. As it`s currently written, I would describe it as ¨You have X rounds, during which you can make 1 attack per round¨... I don`t know if that matches your intent 100% though, but that`s as written.
*IF* it's possible to make iterative attacks with a touch spell (which is still somewhat unclear to my reading), you could use your +6/+1 BAB to make 2 touches per round, which would mean you could use up your spell in 6 rounds (4 rounds if you use haste to get 3 attacks/round).
If you can't, then it's 1 attack per round, and if you miss an attack the rounds timer just keeps on ticking.
BTW, the touch spells section seems to indicate that your choice is:
1. Make a touch attack with the spell, inflicting no damage but conveying the spell (does not provoke); OR,
2. Make an unarmed attack with the spell, inflicting normal unarmed damage for your size, ST, etc., *and* conveying the spell (does provoke, unless you have IpvUnStrike).Clearly you can use iteratives if you're using an unarmed strike. Not so clear is #1, where you're making a touch attack.
I think that`s the crucial point, the first option isn`t UAS. So if you have Imp UAS, you can take AoO and deliver ac Charge, but that`s because Imp UAS makes you armed to begin with. If you don`t have Imp UAS, you can only deliver the Charges with Option 1 WHICH IS A STANDARD ACTION, meaning you can`t take an AoO with them.
The only thing is that some-what conflicts with the rules in the Combat Chapter:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Which pretty much directly contradicts the other section, and says that Unarmed Attack ARE considered armed (with no caveats) when delivering a Touch Spell. (and would allow delivering a Touch Spell as AoO without Imp UAS) ...?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Can we take this as an "official errata" that calcific touch can be used with iterative attacks then?
Nope, I'm not the official errata-giver.
I'd say you could take it as RAI by the designer of the spell, but on the subject of iterative attacks with multi-use touch spells, I'm not 100% convinced on the point. It SEEMS like you should be able to do it, but something seems squirrely about the whole thing.
But, as to this spell, I made a specific point to make it be usable only once per round, so regardless of whether any general touch spell should be able to iterate, this one can't.
Why not?
Then I'd look at an ancient dragon's DEX score of 10 and say that, as long as you rolled well on your SR check, with iterative attacks you could whack-whack-whack him into stone in one round, two rounds at most, no save, easy touch attack that I'm only going to miss on a 1. Who cares if he's slowed... if he's DEAD? Ditto for any humungous low-Dex monster (of which there are plenty in the Bestiary, many of which won't have the dragon's high SR) - it's the combination of near-auto-hits with no save AND attacking those targets precisely at their weakest point. Shoot, hit them with a quickened "ray of dex-penalty" (forgot the name, but it's Ray of Enf for Dex in the APG) and then hit them with this. *boom* easy peasy.
That's the kind of instant cheese that bothers me about letting the spell be used multiple times per round.
And that's why I wrote the spell as specifically stipulating "once per round."
Also, there is still a question about a "reach calcific touch" (which is itself something of a contradiction in terms).
Adding Reach Spell to a multi-round touch spell = crazy-making. I mused about this in the other post. Take your best guess with that.
And would you care to comment on whether the dex damage counts as "damage" for the purpose of dazing spell?
IMO, when a feat or other special effect says "damage," then unless it specifically stipulates otherwise it means "hit point damage," so ability damage would not count. I don't have an official citation for that, but that's the way I'd rule it at the table.
But, as to this spell, I made a specific point to make it be usable only once per round, so regardless of whether any general touch spell should be able to iterate, this one can't.
I edited my post above to reflect this...
I realized the spell itself says ¨Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts...¨ but doesn`t actually phrase that as an action type or anything. ...Meaning you SHOULD be able to Full Attack, but only one of the attacks can discharge the effect before running into the once per round limit... like Stunning Fist. Without Imp. IUS, those Unarmed Strikes may or may not provoke, though...|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The duration indicates the maximum time during which the spell can be active on your hand. An example:
You're a 12th level wizard. You cast the spell. You can make 12 touch attacks with it. You have 12 rounds in which to make them. If 12 rounds elapse, the spell's over, even if you haven't made 12 attacks. If you make 12 attacks, the spell's over, even if 12 rounds haven't elapsed.
I don`t think that`s the best way to describe the spell AS WRITTEN. It doesn`t just say X attacks within X rounds. It has an explicit limit of 1 attack per round, completely independent of how touch spells work, so if you touch somebody during your turn you can`t touch another person (or the same person) if they provoke an AoO because you already used the 1 attack per round. As it`s currently written, I would describe it as ¨You have X rounds, during which you can make 1 attack per round¨... I don`t know if that matches your intent 100% though, but that`s as written.
This is what I get trying to type while I'm at work!
Yes, you are right and my earlier statement is wrong. I was LOOKING at chill touch, and getting confused, because they are NOT the same.
Chill: 1 touch/level, endless duration until you cast another spell
Calcific: 1 ROUND/level, 1 touch/round, has a duration so it doesn't count as holding the charge. It works like call lightning (or, as someone else pointed out, burning gaze, which ironically I also wrote :))
So really, this whole discussion has been a bizarro-world side-trek through rules philosophy, since 90% of what we've talked about doesn't actually apply to Calcific Touch, now that I'm actually focusing on it and not worrying about what other spells I was thinking about!
So, ignore whatever I said before! That was obviously the work of a deranged lunatic.
To wit:
1. Calcific Touch cannot be iterated, regardless of whether any other touch spells can be.
2. Calcific Touch actually works FINE with Reach Spell (as fine as any spell does anyway); you cast it, it reaches to a longer range. You still can make 1 zap with it per round.
3. Calcific Touch lasts 1 round/level and allows YOU (the caster) to make a single touch attack each round. You don't have to make it, but you can't save them up either. Use em or lose em.
4. The max # of targets is "up to 1/level" cuz that's the duration and you can do 1 rd/level. Really, though, it was a superfluous and confusing parenthetical to include in the "Targets" line.
5. This is not 100% certain, but in my opinion Extend Spell would extend both the spell duration of Calcific Touch and the effect duration of the slow. I'd have to do more research to confirm this, though.
How's that?
How's that?
Looks good to me!
So, how much has all the debacle surrounding the rules of the APG made you never want to write another rule-heavy hardcover again?
Wow, who knew a spell could be so complicated when it seems fairly straightforward at first glance...
So if you are a 12th level wizard casting a Reach +1, Extended Calcific Touch it works as follows? (Unsure about these, but trying to see if I got it right.)
1. The spell has a duration of 24 rounds.
2. You can make 12 ranged touch attacks within the duration.
3. The duration of the Slow is 2 rounds.
4. The spell doesn't end if you cast something else.
5. This spell is a personal spell.
6. The spell doesn't trigger unintentionally whenever you touch something; it only triggers when you intend it to.
7. No matter what, you can only make one ranged touch attack per round.
Probably missing some important point or other, but hopefully this covers most of the parts of the spell in question. I'm still unsure about how it would change when affected by reach... Well, for our reading pleasure, the Reach Spell feat:
(Metamagic)
Your spells go farther than normal.
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot
one level higher than the spell’s actual level for each
increase in range category. For example, a spell with a
range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell
slot three levels higher. Spells modif ied by this feat
that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged
touch attacks.
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or
medium do not benefit from this feat.
...and I totally agree with Jason that Enlarge Spell has now been completely overshadowed by Reach Spell. I'd argue that they finally made a kind of Enlarge Spell that's actually useful. This is what Enlarge Spell should have been to begin with. (Rather than nerf the new Reach Spell, which isn't particularly overpowered, just seems that way by comparison to the underwhelming Enlarge Spell)
In regards to reach calcific touch:
1. Is making a ranged touch attack with this spell a standard action?
2. Can you make a ranged touch attack upon casting this spell? ...or do you cast it, and next turn you can use it? (Guess it partially depends on whether it's a standard action?)
Somehow I figured you'd be making a ranged touch attack upon casting Reach Calcific Touch, but I suppose there isn't anything to back that up...?
So you could have this and Chill Touch going at the same time because Calcific Touch isn't charges?
So you could have this and Chill Touch going at the same time because Calcific Touch isn't charges?
*goes insane*
Thanks heaps for the clarifications, Jason. This gamer salutes you as the writer of what is perhaps now his favourite 4th level spell. =)
Edited: because my sleep-deprived and addled brain easily confuses the many names beginning with J that grace these forums and the Paizo staff.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another thing to add to the discussion re: can you use iterative attacks with touch spells is what about attacks of opportunity? Even if you can't make your iteratives, having the spell active would make you count as armed still and therefore could you make an AoO with a touch spell? (For Calcific Touch it doesn't matter as much because of Jason's 1/round limitation - if you use it in an AoO, then you can't use it the following round on your turn, or vice versa.)
Depending on how this all pans out, I think I might make an Elf character with the following:
Traits:
Magical Lineage (Calcific Touch)
Lore Seeker (Calcific Touch)
Feats:
Heighten Spell
Reach Spell
Extend Spell
Preferred Spell (Calcific Touch)
Spell Perfection (Calcific Touch)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Weapon Focus? (Probably doesn't work with ranged touch attacks? Not a ray, I assume.)
...and varying uses of other metamagic feats and rods and spam Calcific Touch all day at a range of up to 400ft + 40ft/level.
A little bit too much Calcific Touch love? xD
Another thing to add to the discussion re: can you use iterative attacks with touch spells is what about attacks of opportunity? Even if you can't make your iteratives, having the spell active would make you count as armed still and therefore could you make an AoO with a touch spell? (For Calcific Touch it doesn't matter as much because of Jason's 1/round limitation - if you use it in an AoO, then you can't use it the following round on your turn, or vice versa.)
You might need to open a new thread regarding touch spells in general for this one. With regards to calcific touch, since your "turn" lasts from the beginning of the time you can make actions till the next time you can make actions, I'd say that you can only make AoOs with calcific touch if you did NOT use it during your last turn.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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But, as to this spell, I made a specific point to make it be usable only once per round, so regardless of whether any general touch spell should be able to iterate, this one can't.I edited my post above to reflect this...
I realized the spell itself says ¨Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts...¨ but doesn`t actually phrase that as an action type or anything. ...Meaning you SHOULD be able to Full Attack, but only one of the attacks can discharge the effect before running into the once per round limit... like Stunning Fist. Without Imp. IUS, those Unarmed Strikes may or may not provoke, though...
It's true. There is still an ambiguity there. I'd say:
1. Standard if you're jest touching.
2. Applied to any one of your attacks when you're going the unarmed attack/natural weapon route.
Shoot, given that it's not "holding the charge," it's not 100% clear if you get to keep trying until you hit, and it triggers on the first shot that HITS (which a touch spell normally would), or if you have to choose an attack and if it misses you get zip (like Stunning Fist).
Who knew there were so many little weirdnesses to touch spells?
So you could have this and Chill Touch going at the same time because Calcific Touch isn't charges?
I guess so, since Calcific Touch has a duration for which you are entitled to make one Calcific Touch attack each round. And technically, wouldn´t the one single Touch Attack/Unarmed Strike discharge BOTH spells with one attack? I don`t see why not.
1. Is making a ranged touch attack with this spell a standard action?
2. Can you make a ranged touch attack upon casting this spell? ...or do you cast it, and next turn you can use it? (Guess it partially depends on whether it's a standard action?)
I`d say you get a free Ranged Touch attack when casting the spell, a Touch spell normally has that included in it, and just changing the Range doesn`t remove arbitrary qualities of the spell.
With a Reach Spell`d Calcific Touch, your 1/round melee touch attack is now a 1/round ranged touch attack. I GUESS... it`s still sort of following the rules for Melee Touch Attacks, i.e. Standard Action to initiate without provoking OR any Unarmed Strike/Natural Attack. Since I don`t think it`s within the intent of Reach Spell to increase the range of your Unarmed Strikes/Natural Attacks, that means you are restricted to initiating the ranged touch attack with a Standard Action... Which is probably good, because not only would you have to worry about Ranged Touch Full Attacks (with most Reach Spell´d Touch Spells without 1/round limits), but you`d have to worry about Vital Strike + Attack Action which would work with Calcific Touch...
Who knew there were so many little weirdnesses to touch spells?
Definitely... :-)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Another thing to add to the discussion re: can you use iterative attacks with touch spells is what about attacks of opportunity? Even if you can't make your iteratives, having the spell active would make you count as armed still and therefore could you make an AoO with a touch spell? (For Calcific Touch it doesn't matter as much because of Jason's 1/round limitation - if you use it in an AoO, then you can't use it the following round on your turn, or vice versa.)
Yes.
For a spell like chill touch, I'm pretty sure you are good to go as long as your "touches" hold out, whether it be iterative, AoO, haste attack, or whatever.
Thanks heaps for the clarifications, James. This gamer salutes you as the writer of what is perhaps now his favourite 4th level spell. =)James?
sigh
EEP! Jason! XD Sorry, I blame sleep depravation.
To make it official: I hereby hail Jason Nelson as the writer of my favourite 4th level spell in Pathfinder. =)
Thanks heaps for the clarifications, James. This gamer salutes you as the writer of what is perhaps now his favourite 4th level spell. =)James?
sigh
You don't even get credit where credit is due... *sigh*
Good grief, Jason. You just HAD to make this fun little spell, didn't you? It's confusing me more than Time Stop. xD
Aww...I said I was sorry. =(
A rose by any other name, a brilliant designer by any other name beginning with J. =)
This is what I get trying to type while I'm at work!Yes, you are right and my earlier statement is wrong. I was LOOKING at chill touch, and getting confused, because they are NOT the same.
Chill: 1 touch/level, endless duration until you cast another spell
Calcific: 1 ROUND/level, 1 touch/round, has a duration so it doesn't count as holding the charge. It works like call lightning (or, as someone else pointed out, burning gaze, which ironically I also wrote :))
So really, this whole discussion has been a bizarro-world side-trek through rules philosophy, since 90% of what we've talked about doesn't actually apply to Calcific Touch, now that I'm actually focusing on it and not worrying about what other spells I was thinking about!
So, ignore whatever I said before! That was obviously the work of a deranged lunatic.
To wit:
1. Calcific Touch cannot be iterated, regardless of whether any other touch spells can be.
2. Calcific Touch actually works FINE with Reach Spell (as fine as any spell does anyway); you cast it, it reaches to a longer range. You still can make 1 zap with it per round.
3. Calcific Touch lasts 1 round/level and allows YOU (the caster) to make a single touch attack each round. You don't have to make it, but you can't save them up either. Use em or lose em.
4. The max # of targets is "up to 1/level" cuz that's the duration and you can do 1 rd/level. Really, though, it was a superfluous and confusing parenthetical to include in the "Targets" line.
5. This is not 100% certain, but in my opinion Extend Spell would extend both the spell duration of Calcific Touch and the effect duration of the slow. I'd have to do more research to confirm this, though.
How's that?
Let's FAQ this post, since it clears up a large number of issues with the spell?
So...
1. We cannot use this with Dazing Spell? (Guess it's a debate as to whether ability damage is a legitimate form of damage for this kind of feat.)
2. Regardless of whether it's reach'd or not, is it always a standard action to make the touch attack?
3 Regardless of whether it's reach'd or not, can you make a touch or ranged touch attack upon casting the spell? If not, you'll never be able to use the number of attacks allowed, right? (Unless the spell is extended)
4. What happens if you cast the spell into a ring of spell storing and someone else uses it? Does it change anything? Does it matter whether or not Reach is applied?
5. Calcific Touch is never unintentionally triggered because it's not a charge like Chill Touch?
...and probably more. Guess I just want to be confident on my favorite new spell. ^^;
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So...
1. We cannot use this with Dazing Spell? (Guess it's a debate as to whether ability damage is a legitimate form of damage for this kind of feat.)
2. Regardless of whether it's reach'd or not, is it always a standard action to make the touch attack?
3 Regardless of whether it's reach'd or not, can you make a touch or ranged touch attack upon casting the spell? If not, you'll never be able to use the number of attacks allowed, right? (Unless the spell is extended)
4. What happens if you cast the spell into a ring of spell storing and someone else uses it? Does it change anything? Does it matter whether or not Reach is applied?
5. Calcific Touch is never unintentionally triggered because it's not a charge like Chill Touch?
...and probably more. Guess I just want to be confident on my favorite new spell. ^^;
1. I'd say no, but you could argue the point.
2. Yes.3. Again, I'd say yes. And BTW quickening the spell would only get you a swift action zap on the FIRST hit of the spell, not subsequent rounds.
4. Nothing special. Just like any other spell in a RoSS, the wearer is the caster.
5. Yes.
So...
1. We cannot use this with Dazing Spell? (Guess it's a debate as to whether ability damage is a legitimate form of damage for this kind of feat.)
2. Regardless of whether it's reach'd or not, is it always a standard action to make the touch attack?
3 Regardless of whether it's reach'd or not, can you make a touch or ranged touch attack upon casting the spell? If not, you'll never be able to use the number of attacks allowed, right? (Unless the spell is extended)
4. What happens if you cast the spell into a ring of spell storing and someone else uses it? Does it change anything? Does it matter whether or not Reach is applied?
5. Calcific Touch is never unintentionally triggered because it's not a charge like Chill Touch?
...and probably more. Guess I just want to be confident on my favorite new spell. ^^;
1. I'd say no, but you could argue the point.
2. Yes.
3. Again, I'd say yes. And BTW quickening the spell would only get you a swift action zap on the FIRST hit of the spell, not subsequent rounds.
4. Nothing special. Just like any other spell in a RoSS, the wearer is the caster.
5. Yes.
Thanks! I think I'm ready to use it without confusion now. :3
I just want to say I like how this has gone... especially since it ended exactly how I've always handled everything brought up (spells with duration based effect that take a standard action each round to use, as compared to multi-touch touch attack spells).
Thanks for taking the time here Jason on these questions.