Dang, thought I was done. How about Calcific Touch and your familiar?
Here's one of the pertinent abilities:
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.
Can your familiar deliver Calcific Touch? It's a little confusing, because of the duration vs. the charge.
The other thing:
Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Since it would seem Calcific Touch isn't something you cast on others, is it a spell with a target of "you" and thus eligible for Share Spells? If so, how would it differ between casting Calcific Touch on yourself and having your familiar deliver the touch attacks and casting Calcific Touch on the familiar and then having it do the touches?
Even more ridiculously, if you have Calcific Touch cast on your familiar and Calcific Touch cast upon yourself, can the familiar use his own Calcific Touch AND deliver your Calcific Touch all in one turn?
Also, what if you cast Reach Calcific Touch on the familiar?
*whew*
Hopefully that's it. Thanks!
I would go with the share spell angle, since it's an "attack buff" -- you can share it with the familiar, but you'll have to cast it once for him and once for yourself, and since it's not a "touch spell" and you can't "hold the charge" I would say the familiar can not deliver touch attacks, from your Calcific touch (he could of course deliver them from his "own" calcific touch spell though).
I would go with the share spell angle, since it's an "attack buff" -- you can share it with the familiar, but you'll have to cast it once for him and once for yourself, and since it's not a "touch spell" and you can't "hold the charge" I would say the familiar can not deliver touch attacks, from your Calcific touch (he could of course deliver them from his "own" calcific touch spell though).
Ah. It's not a touch spell, it gives you a touch attack. Gotcha. Thanks! Still, quite a useful tidbit to know; being able to give Reach Calcific Touch for your familiar to cast for you. Now to keep your familiar from being slaughtered... xD
Depending on how this all pans out, I think I might make an Elf character with the following:
Traits:
Magical Lineage (Calcific Touch)
Lore Seeker (Calcific Touch)Feats:
Heighten Spell
Reach Spell
Extend Spell
Preferred Spell (Calcific Touch)
Spell Perfection (Calcific Touch)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation)Weapon Focus? (Probably doesn't work with ranged touch attacks? Not a ray, I assume.)
...and varying uses of other metamagic feats and rods and spam Calcific Touch all day at a range of up to 400ft + 40ft/level.
A little bit too much Calcific Touch love? xD
I guess just add Improved Familiar to the list and call it a day. xP
Shoot. I think I may have just confused myself even more. >.<;
Once again the poor wording might have screwed me over. xP
...from what I've gathered, it would seem that this spell cannot be combined with Reach Spell because it's not a touch spell: It's a personal spell that gives a touch attack.
Is this the case? D:
Extend is still okay I guess for doubling the duration of the spell, but not for the Slow portion. I suppose Empower and Maximize wouldn't work. Dazing definitely wouldn't work.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think I may have finally figured out this spell. xD
How about Calcific Touch and your familiar?Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.Can your familiar deliver Calcific Touch? It's a little confusing, because of the duration vs. the charge.
Calcific Touch is a Touch spell - look at the Range. That is the definition of a Touch spell, there is no other term attached to spell stat blocks/descriptions which designate them as a Touch Spell besides that one line.
Calcific Touch relies on several aspects of the general Touch Spell rules in it`s functioning - the difference is that it has it`s own mechanism for delivering all the touches on multiple rounds after you cast the spell, i.e. it doesn`t depend on Holding the Charge (and if you spend the next round casting another Spell (e.g. Chill Touch), you only lose that one round`s touch, since for each round remaining in the duration you `manifest` another Calcific Touch Charge.So in this case (Familiar deliver Touch Spells), Calcific Touch DOES work like any other Touch spell, i.e. you can designate your Familiar as the ¨toucher¨, and they will deliver all the touch charges for the duration of the spell. The only difference is that the final sentence of Deliver Touch Spells doesn`t apply when using it with Calcific Touch, because you actually aren`t Holding the Charge... However the rest of the ability works fine (the final line is simply a reminder how it works with MOST multi-touch spells that DO require Holding the Charge, which have indefinite `duration` of the Charges, though the spells themselves are usually Instantaneous).
The other thing:
Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).Since it would seem Calcific Touch isn't something you cast on others, is it a spell with a target of "you" and thus eligible for Share Spells? If so, how would it differ between casting Calcific Touch on yourself and having your familiar deliver the touch attacks and casting Calcific Touch on the familiar and then having it do the touches?
Read the Target line of the spell.
Calcific Touch does not target ¨You¨, it targets various creatures who get Calcified when Touched.We can meta-game and say that `effectively` your own self has been targetted with a buff that lasts so long, but that`s not what the spell thinks. As you realized (Jason also mentioned the correlation) it`s very similar to Call Lightning, just that it is a Touch spell (just one that doesn`t use Holding the Charge rules).
Thanks to all of you for your clarifications and thoughts, especially Jason and Quandary. The discussion of this spell's differences from Chill Touch was particularly helpful.
Ugh, spend all the time and posts, and Quandary gets the shout out.
;D
Thanks to all of you for your clarifications and thoughts, especially Jason and Quandary. The discussion of this spell's differences from Chill Touch was particularly helpful.
Ugh, spend all the time and posts, and Quandary gets the shout out.
;D
Well, most of your time was spent trying to quell my insanity, which I suppose wasn't valued as highly...
^_^
Sanity is overrated in most cases so I can see how that would be.
How about Calcific Touch and your familiar?Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.Can your familiar deliver Calcific Touch? It's a little confusing, because of the duration vs. the charge.Calcific Touch is a Touch spell - look at the Range. That is the definition of a Touch spell, there is no other term attached to spell stat blocks/descriptions which designate them as a Touch Spell besides that one line.
Calcific Touch relies on several aspects of the general Touch Spell rules in it`s functioning - the difference is that it has it`s own mechanism for delivering all the touches on multiple rounds after you cast the spell, i.e. it doesn`t depend on Holding the Charge (and if you spend the next round casting another Spell (e.g. Chill Touch), you only lose that one round`s touch, since for each round remaining in the duration you `manifest` another Calcific Touch Charge.
So in this case (Familiar deliver Touch Spells), Calcific Touch DOES work like any other Touch spell, i.e. you can designate your Familiar as the ¨toucher¨, and they will deliver all the touch charges for the duration of the spell. The only difference is that the final sentence of Deliver Touch Spells doesn`t apply when using it with Calcific Touch, because you actually aren`t Holding the Charge... However the rest of the ability works fine (the final line is simply a reminder how it works with MOST multi-touch spells that DO require Holding the Charge, which have indefinite `duration` of the Charges, though the spells themselves are usually Instantaneous)....The other thing:
Share Spells: The wizard
Thanks much for taking the time. It all makes sense now. (...and thanks for clearing up the familiar thing. I was thinking you had to select the familiar as the toucher every turn, but I guess that isn't the case.)
I think there might be a difference between a 'touch spell' and a 'spell that gives a touch attack'. For instance, a familiar would not be able to deliver a fey sorcerer's laughing touch ability since it's not a touch spell but rather an ability.
Since calcific touch is more akin to call lightning in its operation, you might say that rather than being a touch spell, it appears to be a spell that generates a magical effect each round. After all, one of the unique and distinguishing features of a touch spell is that you can hold the charge with it. But your GM might think otherwise.
I think there might be a difference between a 'touch spell' and a 'spell that gives a touch attack'. For instance, a familiar would not be able to deliver a fey sorcerer's laughing touch ability since it's not a touch spell but rather an ability.
Since calcific touch is more akin to call lightning in its operation, you might say that rather than being a touch spell, it appears to be a spell that generates a magical effect each round. After all, one of the unique and distinguishing features of a touch spell is that you can hold the charge with it. But your GM might think otherwise.
Oh, no not you too! lol. xD
This isn't a spell that gives a touch attack. That was the point of my CALCIFIC TOUCH ISN'T A TOUCH SPELL?! thread. ...and I was proved wrong. It is a spell with a Range Touch, thus making it a touch spell. However, different from Chill Touch, it doesn't have a charge, but a duration. This threw me off too. I think it's slightly nonsensical, but apparently that's how it works. In all other regards, it's a touch spell. ...it just keeps on coming back. >.>;
EDIT: Call Lightning has a range of medium, because the lighting bolt has a range of medium, not the ability to call a lightning bolt. (...and it has a duration. Confusing? Maybe.)
I think there might be a difference between a 'touch spell' and a 'spell that gives a touch attack'. For instance, a familiar would not be able to deliver a fey sorcerer's laughing touch ability since it's not a touch spell but rather an ability.
Since calcific touch is more akin to call lightning in its operation, you might say that rather than being a touch spell, it appears to be a spell that generates a magical effect each round. After all, one of the unique and distinguishing features of a touch spell is that you can hold the charge with it. But your GM might think otherwise.
Oh, no not you too! lol. xD
This isn't a spell that gives a touch attack. That was the point of my CALCIFIC TOUCH ISN'T A TOUCH SPELL?! thread. ...and I was proved wrong. It is a spell with a Range Touch, thus making it a touch spell. However, different from Chill Touch, it doesn't have a charge, but a duration. This threw me off too. I think it's slightly nonsensical, but apparently that's how it works. In all other regards, it's a touch spell. ...it just keeps on coming back. >.>;
EDIT: Call Lightning has a range of medium, because the lighting bolt has a range of medium, not the ability to call a lightning bolt. (...and it has a duration. Confusing? Maybe.)
A touch spell does not mean a spell with a range of touch-simple illustration: bull's strength is not a touch spell.
Thanks much for taking the time. It all makes sense now. (...and thanks for clearing up the familiar thing. I was thinking you had to select the familiar as the toucher every turn, but I guess that isn't the case.)
No problem, it`s basically just about understanding that not every Touch spell necessarily uses Holding the Touch rules... Looking into it, I did find that the rules for Touch Attacks themselves had problems, so hopefully that sees some Errata.
I also intuitively thought that the Familiar would at least need to return to you before touching subsequent targets, but per RAW the ¨Deliver Touch Spell¨ ability designates the Familiar as ¨the toucher¨ for the spell at large, and doesn`t mention anything about individual charges. I.e. imagine you`ve given ALL the big ball of charges to your Familiar to deliver, one by one, or with Calcific Touch the new charge each round `regenerates` from where the previous one was discharged (the Familiar`s snout/paw/tail).In all other regards, it's a touch spell. ...it just keeps on coming back. >.>
This is exactly how it works, you cast it and every round during the spell`s duration a new charge regenerates. Since YOU aren`t worrying about Holding the Charge, you can waste the first round and cast Chill Touch, and on subsequent rounds discharge both effects with each touch (you can`t cast Chill Touch first, for obvious reasons).
I think there might be a difference between a 'touch spell' and a 'spell that gives a touch attack'. For instance, a familiar would not be able to deliver a fey sorcerer's laughing touch ability since it's not a touch spell but rather an ability.
Right, Share Spells only shares spells (with target ¨You¨), not abilities.
But read the Target line of Calcific Touch. You`re not granting the ability to deliver touch attacks to various creatures, you`re delivering the spell`s effects against enemies over a period of time. The spell`s effect has a duration, and you have to re-target it every round with your own actions. Likewise, Flaming Sphere is not structured as a (transmutation?) spell which grants the ability to control a conjured ball of fire over the duration (albeit as free action).Plenty of spells grant you abilities (and have Target: You or X creatures who gain ability), but Calcific Touch doesn`t. There very well could be (I can`t remember off hand) spells (probably Transmute) that alter YOU the caster (or willing target) and grant a Touch ability... But Calcific Touch isn`t that spell.
That a given spell`s effects may depend on your subsequent actions controlling it doesn`t necessarily cross the lines of `what is the spell`s target? the enemy or me? or, is this an attack spell or a buff?`
A touch spell does not mean a spell with a range of touch-simple illustration: bull's strength is not a touch spell.
What other definition of a touch spell are you reading in the book?
So you`re saying that a Sorceror CAN`T use their Familiar`s Deliver Touch Spells ability to deliver Bull`s Touch to the Fighter on the other side of the cavern, because Bull`s Strength is somehow not a Touch spell even though it has the exact same signifier (Range: Touch) that other Touch spells do? How do we know what a ´´Touch Spell´´ is, then? There`s certainly diferrent rules on how you can touch willing and un-willing targets, but that doesn`t mean that both cases are not Touch Spells.
If I'm interpreting Jason's comments correctly a character with Improved Unarmed Strike and BAB+6 who casts Calcific Touch can attempt to punch somebody twice per round, and if either of those attacks hits it causes 1d4 Dex damage and a save vs being Slowed. Some questions on that:
A - If you also have TWF could you do 1d4 Dex damage with both attacks?
B - Can you make 1 unarmed strike the same round you cast the spell? I'd think not since you've used your standard action to cast the spell. Then again, making a melee touch attack is usually a standard action too, and you usually can do that the same round as casting a touch spell.
It would also be nice to know whether this is really a touch spell or a personal spell with a range of "you" which gives you touch attacks. Either way I'd think you should be able to get your familiar to deliver the attacks using "Deliver Touch Spells" in the first case or "Share Spells" in the second.
This spell could have been the bomb yesterday against an adult red dragon, but our Arcane Trickster failed to beat its SR by 1. About 4 touches would finish off such a foe, and it only has a touch AC of 8. I'm guessing there will be a lot of cool looking dragon statues cropping up in Golarion soon...
If I'm interpreting Jason's comments correctly a character with Improved Unarmed Strike and BAB+6 who casts Calcific Touch can attempt to punch somebody twice per round, and if either of those attacks hits it causes 1d4 Dex damage and a save vs being Slowed. Some questions on that:
Incorrect since the spell specifically states it only works once per round.
Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and slows the target (as the spell) for 1 round.
Ok, I see where he later retracted/clarified his earlier statements. I guess the important part is
1. Calcific Touch cannot be iterated, regardless of whether any other touch spells can be.
It would be interesting to know if other multiple touch spells can be used with iterative attacks or not, but perhaps that's outside the scope of this thread. Was there any final decision about how Calcific Touch would interact with familiars though?
Ok, I see where he later retracted/clarified his earlier statements. I guess the important part is1. Calcific Touch cannot be iterated, regardless of whether any other touch spells can be.It would be interesting to know if other multiple touch spells can be used with iterative attacks or not, but perhaps that's outside the scope of this thread. Was there any final decision about how Calcific Touch would interact with familiars though?
Calcific Touch is a touch spell not a buff, and as such can be delivered through the familiar's Deliver Touch Spells ability.
On a Sidenote I THINK that if you have the familiar designated to deliver the touch the familiar has to deliver all touchs for that spell, but I am not sure on this.
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On the issue of multi touching in the same round:
Unless the spell states otherwise you probably can. Nothing in the rules states that you can not make more than one touch attack per round.
So if you were to use something like chill touch at caster level 5 and have 5 touch attack available with a BAB of +11, you should be able to make a full attack at +11/+6/+1 to deliver three touches in one round.
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If I'm interpreting Jason's comments correctly a character with Improved Unarmed Strike and BAB+6 who casts Calcific Touch can attempt to punch somebody twice per round, and if either of those attacks hits it causes 1d4 Dex damage and a save vs being Slowed. Some questions on that:
Incorrect since the spell specifically states it only works once per round.
Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and slows the target (as the spell) for 1 round.
Once per round...but PER target. You can afflict multiple critters according to the target line. So if your surounded by 3 critters and have three attacks, you can attempt to damage each one for 1d4 dex damage...and use up to 3 of the 1 use per caster level. And being a complete rules monkey that I am, technically, you can do one attack to ALL creatures within touch range once per round as the spell effect is applied to the target of creature or creatures touch...which is different from how chill touch works because chill touch is an instant spell. This REALLY breaks with reach spell as now that applies to ALL critters within short range. Then you can enlarge it for even more fun.
Really the way this spell SHOULD have been written is to have range of personal, and the text changed to This spell empowers you to deliver a touch attack as a standard action that does...spell effect. Following the chill touch format was NOT a good idea as that spell works the way it does due to it being an instant spell and holding the charge rules.
Once per round...but PER target.
Incorrect. It doesn't say once per round per target in the spell write up -- it says once per round. Period.
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Incorrect. It doesn't say once per round per target in the spell write up -- it says once per round. Period.
Once per round...but PER target.
The spell description say once per round...the spell descritpion is applied to the target. So once per round, the target (in this case creature or creatures touched) has the spell effect happen. That is the standard way to read the rules.
Are you just trying to make this thread drag on forever or what?
Read the spell, there is no once per target clause.
Obviously, you affect multiple targets over the duration.
This spell does not follow the Chill Touch format, as it isn`t Holding the Charge,
but a Touch Effect which happens once per round for the duration of the spell.
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Are you just trying to make this thread drag on forever or what?
Read the spell, there is no once per target clause.
Obviously, you affect multiple targets over the duration.This spell does not follow the Chill Touch format, as it isn`t Holding the Charge,
but a Touch Effect which happens once per round for the duration of the spell.
No I'm not, but that is NOT how you read spells. If you change it for this spell, you have any idea how many other spells stop making sense?!? Yes I realize that this spell does not work like chill touch...but the problem is that the author used chill touch format as a base for this spell without realizing how the rules work...which is why it's a bloody mess.
Okay lets take slow. The way your reading the spell, I cast slow, for one round per level, I can make make one creature/level make a save or be slow because your saying that the duration is applied to the target. Which it isn't. The spell description is applied to the target. The duration is appled to the spell description. Which I realize causes other issues with this spell. Read my fix to make the spell work the way the designer intended.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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1. The spell lasts 1 round per level.
2. During that duration, you can make ONE touch attack per round, which affects ONE creature.
3. When you touch a creature, it suffers the effects of the spell ONCE (indefinite-duration Dex dmg, 1 rd slow). As long as the spell's duration runs, you can make another attack each round to inflict those effects again.
4. Over the course of the spell's duration, you can repeatedly touch the same creature, or you can touch different creatures each round; hence the statement that the spell affects "creature or creatures touched."
Otherwise, we'd have had a different thread going on about how "Yeah, you can use it each round, but you have to attack the same creature every round with it, because it only says CREATURE touched, so you can't attack anybody else with that casting of the spell."
5. You absolutely can attack with it in concert with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, but you can still only use it 1/round, whether that's an off-hand attack, iterative attack, or whatever.
6. Could you, in theory, cast TWO calcific touch spells, and then use EACH of them to attack 1/round? Hmmm... that's an interesting corner case I don't think was addressed. I suppose technically you could, as long as you were using TWF (unarmed strike), iterative attacks, or 2 natural weapons. Making a melee touch attack with a spell, however, as far as I am aware, is a standard action, so it'd have to be a regular attack roll, not a touch, if you wanted to use both per round.
7. If you cast it through your familiar, I would say it becomes the "toucher" for the duration of the spell.
6. Could you, in theory, cast TWO calcific touch spells, and then use EACH of them to attack 1/round? Hmmm... that's an interesting corner case I don't think was addressed. I suppose technically you could, as long as you were using TWF (unarmed strike), iterative attacks, or 2 natural weapons. Making a melee touch attack with a spell, however, as far as I am aware, is a standard action, so it'd have to be a regular attack roll, not a touch, if you wanted to use both per round.
This is my biggest part -- I can find nothing in the rules to support the position that making a touch attack (melee or otherwise) with a spell is specifically a standard action. I've looked over the entire magic and combat sections repeatedly but can't find anything to support this.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This is my biggest part -- I can find nothing in the rules to support the position that making a touch attack (melee or otherwise) with a spell is specifically a standard action. I've looked over the entire magic and combat sections repeatedly but can't find anything to support this.6. Could you, in theory, cast TWO calcific touch spells, and then use EACH of them to attack 1/round? Hmmm... that's an interesting corner case I don't think was addressed. I suppose technically you could, as long as you were using TWF (unarmed strike), iterative attacks, or 2 natural weapons. Making a melee touch attack with a spell, however, as far as I am aware, is a standard action, so it'd have to be a regular attack roll, not a touch, if you wanted to use both per round.
Perhaps you're right. Cast and attack = standard action, sure, but for making a touch attack with a spell in a round AFTER you've cast it, it just requires some flavor of an attack action of whatever type you like.
That's kind of what I thought -- though I have (in the past) and see others assume that any touch attack is a standard action in and of itself. Might be something to get some clarification on honestly... I can understand it going both ways from a balance/mechanics perspective.
There aren't too many spells that allow this fortunately though -- produce flame, chill touch are the only ones I can think of right off the top of my head.
This is my biggest part -- I can find nothing in the rules to support the position that making a touch attack (melee or otherwise) with a spell is specifically a standard action. I've looked over the entire magic and combat sections repeatedly but can't find anything to support this.6. Could you, in theory, cast TWO calcific touch spells, and then use EACH of them to attack 1/round? Hmmm... that's an interesting corner case I don't think was addressed. I suppose technically you could, as long as you were using TWF (unarmed strike), iterative attacks, or 2 natural weapons. Making a melee touch attack with a spell, however, as far as I am aware, is a standard action, so it'd have to be a regular attack roll, not a touch, if you wanted to use both per round.
Hmm...actually, page 185 of the Core Rulebook seems to suggest that a touch attack functions as a normal (armed) attack.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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That's kind of what I thought -- though I have (in the past) and see others assume that any touch attack is a standard action in and of itself. Might be something to get some clarification on honestly... I can understand it going both ways from a balance/mechanics perspective.
There aren't too many spells that allow this fortunately though -- produce flame, chill touch are the only ones I can think of right off the top of my head.
Maybe the precedent I've used has actually been monsters that have a touch attack. Like, say, a lamia matriarch or spectre, with a BAB sufficient to give it multiple attacks with its touch but it only gets one (though it can use that touch as an off-hand attack if it likes).
Then again, those aren't touch spells and may simply be disqualified from iteratives because they are sorta-kinda natural weapons.
It's an odd quirk for sure.
I think the thought that it is a Standard Action comes from the part where the rules talk about applying touches to WILLING targets (i.e. allies), where it is 1 ally as Standard and 6 allies (within reach) as Full Round. All this is from 3.5 where nobody really drew much difference between action types* (like attack action vs. other standard action), so attacking 1 person (once) is obviously just a standard action, and that`s that.
The way the rules handle touch attacks (vs. non-willing targets) is rather confusing...
The only places AFAIK that Touch attacks (vs. non-willing subjects) are dealt with is under Unarmed Attack (¨armed¨ unarmed attacks, saying you are armed when delivering touch spell) and later in the Combat Chapter, ¨Touch Spells in Combat¨ where the first general part suggests you are armed (but doesn`t give any specific info on how you can make such attacks), and the only place where it specifically talks about delivering them with Unarmed/Natural Attacks also says you provoke (this is under Holding the Charge, even though it doesn`t seem specific to that mode, e.g. for Calcific Touch). So technically, if we`re not Holding the Charge, we really have to rely on the implication under ¨Armed¨ Unarmed Attack, that any Unarmed Strike can deliver charges/touch spells - Though that leaves the Holding the Charge casters uniquely provoking with their Iterative UAS/Touch attacks while those not Holding the Charge are considered ¨armed¨ fullstop and thus don`t provoke, which is absurd.
Basically, it splits up the info, and even repeats itself, while contradicting itself left and right, without head-on dealing with a Touch Attack in the first place. I.e. delivering a Charge with UAS>/NatAttack, what happens if you fail AC but hit Touch AC? Pretty easy, but it seems necessary to mention that you just make one attack and two different effects (charge, melee damage) trigger depending on if you hit two different DCs.
Then monsters with Touch Attacks list them within the attack sequence itself (i.e. more like Touch Attack as discrete attack mode). Firstly, I would say that how they`re presented in the Stat Block is exactly how they´re supposed to be used... but if you think about, it depends whether the Touch Attack `emanates´ from a specific body part (i.e. natural attack, albeit one that only delivers touch effect), or if ANY touch (or Unarmed Strike at least) could potentially deliver it... in which case they SHOULD be able to Iterative Unarmed Strike. PROBABLY thinking of them as specific Natural Attacks (with no melee damage) is how it`s supposed to work, but it`s not really spelled out like that anywhere*. ...But also, if it`s supposed to generally work like described in the Holding the Charge section, why do I never see Monsters with Natural Attacks causing damage which also deliver Touch Attacks? (maybe there are, just rare...?)
*¨Touch Attacks¨ is a sub-section of... ARMOR CLASS, and actually is more about Touch AC than the attacks themselves which it just describes common types of, but not their mechanical features.