For most classes no its not worth it. For a fighter where feats are less valuable due to sheer number, and the fact that weapon spec is one of the few things a fighter gets that brings their damage above what other classes get, it's definately worth it. It matters more for 2 weapon fighter or an archer, but it helps 2handers too. There are already relatively few feats that will add to damage of a 2hander anyway, so you might as well take them to edge your damage up.
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Maybe it isn't, for your fighter. Maybe you prefer having more tactical options like tripping, disarming, bull rushing, sundering, dirty tricks, spring attacks, and spirited charges. I usually do.
But other folks just want to sit in one place (next to the enemy) and deal lots of damage. And for those folks, weapon specialization is a great feat. You can't do anything you couldn't do before. But you do one thing even better than you did.
P.S. - if you're a single-weapon fighter, it's somewhat less valuable, but two-weapon fighters just LOVE specializing in some light weapon and getting +2 damage to each hand's attack.
+2 damage for a feat seems pretty weak at any level. I'm using a two handed weapon fighter and already doing 2d6+10 with a power attack, I'm not sure this or greater weapon specialization are worth it.
Well, it is better for one handed weapons. That +2 is +10% average damage for you.
However it is worth it, why? Because after spending a few feats in many "must have" feats you have few options.
If you want increased attack or damage... Weapon focus (about +5% average damage btw)? You can only take it once.
Toughness looks better? again you can't take it many times
Spring attack? you gotta be kidding
Vital Strike? One feat of many you have to spent
etc. etc.
Remember that fighter bonus feats are limited to those in the fighter's list.
Some people will tell you that you need it to stay competative. Others, like me, will tell you you don't need it but its not bad. A few will say to skip it. Overall, it is a ballanced feat and not a bad choice. If you find yourself killing your opponents easily, I wouldn't bother and would take something more fun. There has been at least 1 discussion about how much damage you need to do to stay competative against level appropriate monsters, and fighters who do not take weapon spec fall at the low end of still being competative by the measurements people seemed to like (Avg damage = 1/4 lvl appropriate (CR=lvl) melee monster's HP). Incidentally, it will generally add about as much overall damage to a 2 handed fighter as weapon focus, given that weapon focus will add a little more than 5% of your total damage to each hit's expected value.
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It matters more for 2 weapon fighter or an archer
This, +1.
For my Archer, Weapon Specialization is invaluable. With 4 hits per round, this is an extra 8 damage. Not bad for my (admittedly suboptimal) Halfling Fighter with 14 or so strength. That's my composite strength bonus ON TOP of my composite strength bonus!
However, my Vital Strike-focused Barbarian gets.... 2 damage per round out of it. THAT isn't worth a feat... not to mention, he doesn't qualify for it :P
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+2 damage for a feat seems pretty weak at any level. I'm using a two handed weapon fighter and already doing 2d6+10 with a power attack, I'm not sure this or greater weapon specialization are worth it.
Yes it's worth it. There are a lot of other feats out there that require Weapon Specialization as a pre-req.
Plus you are a fighter. Fighters can afford 1 feat.
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Weapon Specialization is a check-down feat, just like a check-down pass in (American) football. You're looking through your feat options and there's just nothing that works -- you don't meet the pre-reqs yet, it's not useful in enough situations, whatever -- so you just check down to Weapon Specialization. It's not a feat that is a major cornerstone of any build (except as a pre-requisite for other feats, perhaps), but it's certainly better from a combat perspective than taking Athletic or Endurance.
Weapon Specialization is a check-down feat, just like a check-down pass in (American) football. You're looking through your feat options and there's just nothing that works -- you don't meet the pre-reqs yet, it's not useful in enough situations, whatever -- so you just check down to Weapon Specialization. It's not a feat that is a major cornerstone of any build (except as a pre-requisite for other feats, perhaps), but it's certainly better from a combat perspective than taking Athletic or Endurance.
Yep. This, exactly.
Which means that, given the number of options in APG (not to mention 3.5 material, if you use it) that no, it's never really worth it, because there are other check down feats (like iron will) that are less bad. If +2 damage seems like a waste now, imagine what it will be like at level 20, when you're doing 200+ damage a round and the feat's adding 12 damage if all of your attacks hit. (A TWFer will add more, but meh) You're almost guaranteed to have something better to take.
I find Weapon Specialization is great... for certain kinds of builds. The one I see most often is the mega-damage build. That is, a fighter who has maximized Strength, gotten a 2-handed weapon, Power Attacks a lot, uses Vital Strike a lot, and crits often.
Basically, by piling on ALL the damage-boosting effects you can, you end up with a build that powers through DR better, hits death by massive damage thresholds more often, and does *just* enough damage to kill a wounded foe more often. No one thing makes that happen, but piling a bunch of them on lets you "win at the margins."
Actually, even with the APG there still aren't 21 solid combat feats. Even with the APG and 3.5 material there aren't 21 solid combat feats for every weapon style (and when you get 3.5 involved, you're going to want Weapon Spec anyway because it's a pre-req for Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery, which is extremely powerful).
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Don't forget that if you take it at level 4 you can trade it out with later fighter levels if you don't like it.
Actually, even with the APG there still aren't 21 solid combat feats. Even with the APG and 3.5 material there aren't 21 solid combat feats for every weapon style (and when you get 3.5 involved, you're going to want Weapon Spec anyway because it's a pre-req for Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery, which is extremely powerful).
Well, not every feat has to be a combat feat. I mean, only 11 of their feats are going to have to be from that list, and there are certainly 11 combat feats worth taking in pathfinder.
Personally, if I didn't have any combat feats left to take (meaning I had my specific style feast, 1-2 crit feats, PA, improved init) I'd rather pick up a second style with an improved combat maneuver feat to add versatility than waste a feat on weapon specialization. Or get combat reflexes or something just in case.
As for the other ten feats, I'd much rather get toughness, or iron will, master craftsman, skill focus stealth, maybe talk my teamates into getting a teamwork feat with me, etc. I'm just saying that there are multiple options to make characters more versatile and interesting than the small pittance of damage weapon spec gives.
You are right about mastery, however. I didn't think of that.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: people really underestimate flat bonus damage. +2 to damage may not look like much (and to be fair, it's not as good as +1 to hit from Weapon Focus), but it's definitely a good feat. There's a reason FighterMan took Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Spec, and pretty much every other Fighter build I make does as well.
Actually,
If you're going to do a TWF build combined with a crit build (doable with the APG) you can take crit focus (Bastard Sword), Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), and Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) and at 12th level do some pretty nasty damage (17-20 crit, times 2 crit, including the +2 from WSpc).
Other builds, not so much. Archer builds, as pointed out, get lots of utility from it. It all depends on your bulid and such.
Creative Director
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Weapon Specialization is far from useless. A +2 bonus to damage with a weapon can really start to build up, especially in the case of someone who, say, goes the full dual weapon route and uses two weapons of the same type. And the fact that this bonus to damage is untyped makes it very valuable indeed.
Like others have said it's more useful if you can spam lots of attacks with an archer and a two-weapon fighter build. With a low base damage weapon such as the kukri the combination of good crit range and an untyped bonus to damage can be really nice for applying a good amount of damage in a short amount of time.
If you are going for a vital strike charge build with a two handed weapon then the utility is liable to be limited. It's still a bonus to damage but the cost to benefit ration is less obviously in the fighter's favor.
I see you guys expect too much of a feat.
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Weapon Spec is a fine feat. It belongs firmly in the "I do stuff better" category and not the "I can do stuff now that I couldn't do before" category, but it is a fine feat. And if you want your fighter to do nothing but damage, specializing in that fighter's favorite weapon is a great way to get there.
Sometimes other feats are better, but it is NEVER a bad feat to have. I've seen builds that take 4 levels of fighter just to get it. If you're playing a fighter eventually you will end up taking it and not regretting it.
Also if you don't take it then the first time an enemy survives with 1 or 2 HP (it happens plenty) then you will regret not having it.
Worth it. It's one of the reasons fighters can outdamage any other class.
Not to start an argument, but I would just like to raise the counterpoint that if you are playing a fighter you do not necessarily need to outdamage every other class. You are not in a competition for damage against other classes. You are up against foes that have set HP counts. Overkilling them does you no bennefit, so if you are already powerful enough, this feat does nothing for you.
As I said before, the feat is solid. It is by no means mandatory though, as I have seen some argue. I have made multiple builds that do not utalize it before 10th level, and some not before 15th, and they have been able to deal enough damage to fill the front line damage dealing role.
Don't forget that if you take it at level 4 you can trade it out with later fighter levels if you don't like it.
Best point I've seen.
Worth it. It's one of the reasons fighters can outdamage any other class.
Don't forget about weapon training. A +4 to attack and damage really ramps up your damage. That +4 is often the reason fighters can use Power Attack and similar abilities and STILL hit their target.
You are not in a competition for damage against other classes. You are up against foes that have set HP counts.
As someone who plays barbarians nine times out of ten, let me say this: the sooner that HP count is drained, the better. That's why we get the extra +2 damage!
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I'm going to say yes if you're only playing Core, but that yes changes to a no the more books you add to a Fighter's options. WS is a decent feat when you don't have a lot to choose from, but grows weaker when you add feats that let them do something new (which is generally the types of feats I try to take.)
Fighters honestly have enough things to add to their damage that eventually lets them rule overkill land. And additional damage doesn't really make them anymore fun or dynamic to play. You'd be better off using those feats on combat maneuver abilities (Dirty Trick is a fave of mine), or really anything that let them contribute in a fashion where they couldn't before.
It's an okay feat if you only want to swing your sword better, but a Fighter should be looking for different ways to contribute, not just doing the same one slightly better.
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I find Weapon Specialization is great... for certain kinds of builds. The one I see most often is the mega-damage build. That is, a fighter who has maximized Strength, gotten a 2-handed weapon, Power Attacks a lot, uses Vital Strike a lot, and crits often.
Basically, by piling on ALL the damage-boosting effects you can, you end up with a build that powers through DR better, hits death by massive damage thresholds more often, and does *just* enough damage to kill a wounded foe more often. No one thing makes that happen, but piling a bunch of them on lets you "win at the margins."
Don't forget that Massive Damage rules are an optional rule and most groups do not use them....
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Design Manager
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Weapon Specialization is far from useless. A +2 bonus to damage with a weapon can really start to build up, especially in the case of someone who, say, goes the full dual weapon route and uses two weapons of the same type. ***
Or the archer using Manyshot and Rapid Shot putting as many attacks in the air each round as he can.
Edit: Just realized this was yet another attack of the evil necromancer overlords.
Kill it with fire!
My 2H fighter doesn't have it, utility is always greater than a little extra damage.
Having said that, weapon specialization for a 1H melee or an archer is insanely good.
Zen Archer should not have had access to WS. One mistake of many.
There has been at least 1 discussion about how much damage you need to do to stay competative against level appropriate monsters,That discussion sounds intriguing b/c it's something I've always wondered & worried about with my own character builds. But I can't seem to find this thread- can someone please link me?
It's a three year old thread, so you might not get a reply.
Weapon Focus/ Weapon Spec chain 4 feat for +2hit/+4damage to every hit fighter only. If you and Range guy yes or 2 weapon guy with the same weapon in each hand maybe.
But if you are 2hander or sword and bord guy I say to try these 2 feats
Precise Strike (Combat, Teamwork)
You are skilled at striking where it counts, as long as an ally distracts your foe.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same the creature, you deal an additional 1d6 points of precision damage with each successful melee attack. This bonus damage stacks with other sources of precision damage, such as sneak attack. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
First off it can be taken by any class not just 4th level fighter.
Second it promote teamwork insteed of solo play.
Third it may cause your AoO by teammate there for cuasing even more damage.
Forth I have seen it with combat reflex goback and forth three times in one round making short work of a bad guy.
In round that you full attack with it lock in with the flank you are +4 to hit and +1d6 to damage average 3.5 per shot. That is 1.5 more per shot than weapon spec and +3 more to hit.
Yes you lose damage on the rounds can only solo attack but, you make it up in spades one the rounds that you can.
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...some stuff
Ah, the number of times I've wanted to Necro a thread to offer the OP advice I was certain he should read... 3 years later.
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Necro-thread-hate is silly. Search still works on old threads. Some people use search. Some topics just aren't discussed a lot. Hate on starting a new topic about the same thing instead of reviving a necro thread seems more appropriate. Because otherwise you are having to look in two or more different threads for the same little-discussed topic.
As others have said, Weapon Specialization is definitely worth it if your goal is to deal as much damage as possible with your fighter. Where the rogue is built around adding oodles of damage dice, the fighter is built around adding oodles of numbers to his damage. Think of all of the bonuses a fighter receives:
Weapon Training (+1 per five levels, can be increased by an additional +2 via duelist's gloves.)
Weapon Specialization (+2)
Greater Weapon Specialization (+2)
Power Attack / Deadly Aim (Average of +2 per 4 levels)
So far, by level 10 we're looking at a total of +10 damage per attack, or +12 if you have duelist's gloves. And in all, this only cost you 5 of your 10 feats. So you can still take all of those other, crucial, "must-have" feats and still grab Greater Weapon Specialization.
Is Weapon Specialization for every fighter? Of course not. Some fighters focus on combat maneuvers over damage. Others might focus on mobility or defensive tactics. But if you want to kill stuff, Weapon Specialization is a no-brainer for a fighter.
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Necro-thread-hate is silly. Search still works on old threads. Some people use search. Some topics just aren't discussed a lot. Hate on starting a new topic about the same thing instead of reviving a necro thread seems more appropriate. Because otherwise you are having to look in two or more different threads for the same little-discussed topic.
I agree with this, particularly if the thread-to-be-necro'd isn't very long.
Necroing a 10-page thread is pointless I think, because people aren't likely to read through the first 10 pages anyway. But if you're looking to discuss topic A and find a 1-3 page thread about it with some interesting stuff in it, why not necro it? You start the topic youi wanted to discuss with some interesting food for thought already provided.
Weapon Focus/Spec are good if you have the feats to burn and want to continue to focus on damage as opposed to other options. They're not meant to be the first choice for damage optimization, but rather another choice for damage optimizstion, svailable for those who want to continue to put all their eggs in the damage basket.
I've currently got WF/GWF in my magus build...at level 17. Before then there are too many better options for me, but eventually I run out of great options and start looking for decent ones, and flat bonuses to hit never go out of style.
I think it depends on your weapon. i think it's great for a two hander build because you will have the feats to spare.
it's great for two weapon builds because the extra damage means a lot and it multipies on crits.
it's not worth it for sword and board types,and it's not worth it for combat manuver types.
I have a Sword-&-Board/TWF Fighter using a Gladius that makes good use of that feat tree.