Who Prefers Sorcerers To Wizards?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I have always been interested in sorcerers more than wizards. I not only think that they are better in game terms (especially with the updated rules thanks to Paizo) but I think they have more style and add more flavor to the game. Yes I know that wizards get to cast one spell level higher one level before sorcerers do, but thats minor to me. Odds are that the wizard player didn't even take a potent spell to use at that level so actually they are still on level playing ground, and if the wizard did take a potent spell, who cares? Theres lots of monsters and NPC's that will beat you out in abilities high above your level but you still best them with what you got. The ability to cast spontaneously is invaluble and you can cast far after the wizard has ran out of spells. Yes I know that the wizards can repick spells everyday, but thats just the thing. When you take on the role of a sorcerer, you are experienced enough to know that the spells you pick will make or break your character. You must pick a balance of utility and combat. Your combat spells must be balanced in the fact that you need to take spells that will help you in different circumstances (ray of enfeeblement is good but you don't take it to cast at the fighter unless you know he won't make the save, but thats why you take scorching ray or another touch attack spell.) What I'm trying to get at is that you have to be smart, have common sense, and be somewhat experienced to play a sorcerer and I think thats one reason why people are turned off by it, but i have played sorcerers before and have been far more potent than any wizard could be.
Im not trying to rag on the wizard; I think they are ok depending on your style of play and what type of character you are trying to portay, but it seems like every time I get on here I see some kind of thread putting down the sorcerer and making it seem like the wizard is God, which I believe to be false. So I'm just looking for some sorcerer love. If you love the sorcerer (especially the Pathfinder version of them) as much as me, share some reasons why you prefer the sorcerer more. Any campaign stories where you showed up a wizard or did something blatantly impossible for a wizard to accomplish are also fine. Again, not putting down the wizard, just voicing my opinion and looking for some back up.
(This is not a thread to argue who is better so please don't start any arguements bout whos better. This is just for people who think sorcerers are better, either mechanics wise, style wise, or both. Thanks.)


You said they were better in game terms, and you are making comparisons and I quote "but i have played sorcerers before and have been far more potent than any wizard could be. "

That is all the wizo lovers need. :) You can't talk smack under the table and expect nobody to notice.

I like sorcerers better to. They have enough lasting power for me, and less book keeping, but I still know how the king of the hill is.

Wait a mintute you only have one past. Is this Madd dog part 2?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Well played.


No, just someone who reads the blogs. and i wasnt trying talking smack. i was stating facts. if someone takes it as talking smack, they can take it for all the times that they talk bad bout sorcerers and boost up wizards :P i apologize for the confusion.


I think some of the things in the below threads and strongly oppose some of the other things in them.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/whyIPreferSorcerersToWizards
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/sorcererAndWizard
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/wizardVsSorcerer4bqf9
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/wizardVsSorcerer

Liberty's Edge

I love them both. They both a style and game play that fits in the gaming world and at the table. I couldn't have a game without either.


Most people in my group prefer the sorcerer to the wizard simply because they don't like figuring out what spells they should prepare every morning. It also helps that "scry-and-die" is a very ineffective tactic among the people I game with. Half the time the DM hasn't figured out exactly what the relevant encounters are until just before the fight, much less the random encounters.

My personal favorite sorcerer was a dragonblooded sorcerer (the silverbrow human variant) moving along one of the dragonblood prestige classes (not the DD, but a similar one that emphasized magic over the stat boosts). She had no idea what was happening to her, as I roleplayed it as ancestral memories coming out when needed. She had no idea where she learned many of the things she knew (because she never did learn most of them), including the first time she spoke draconic. Fun times.

However, I am presently playing a witch in one of the 2 Pathfinder games I am in atm. In the other I am playing a Battle Herald. Although a Stormborn sorcerer is on the horizon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Kolokotroni wrote:

I think some of the things in the below threads and strongly oppose some of the other things in them.

whyIPreferSorcerersToWizards
sorcererAndWizard
wizardVsSorcerer4bqf9
wizardVsSorcerer

Linkified.


wanders through thread

Shadow Lodge

*breathes fire on troll*

Don't expect that to work right away. Trolls, 'specially undead ones, are tough here on the Paizo boards.

Anyway, I'm a great fan of Sorcerers! It's just easier for me to create stories around them, instead of "One day he found a strange book"...


Don`t we feed Trolls to the Tarrasque around here?

Seriously, Sorc vs. Wiz is so old and so silly, having both available is funner and more interesting, and certainly the Bloodline abilities now make Sorcerors even more unique and lessen the whole Spell Level vs. Slots debate.


I think the biggest problem in the everlasting debate regarding Sorcerers viz. Wizards is really simple.
Sorcerers came late to the game. Consequently, most people don't know how to play Sorcerers.

I remember reading over and over again on the old WotC boards how people would try to optimize Sorcerers by making them spell cannons.
ugh!

Also, Sorcerers aren't variant Wizards. A well optimized Sorcerer requires an entirely different mind set.

For example, a Sorcerer will simply never have the access to skills that a Wizard has. They just won't. Wizards win this one hands down. UNLESS Sorcerers make use of that crazy Charisma and those Charm spells to get someone else who does have the skill to make the skill roll for them. Sure, they can't make use of, say, Swim that way, but they don't have to worry about which skills are class skills. Yes, a Wizard can cast Charm Person too. But, if you want the charmed victim to do something it wouldn't ordinarily do, you must succeed on a Charisma roll against the victim. Yes, the Sorcerer is going to be more likely to make that roll than a Wizard. Want to know the most damaging spell (in terms of dps) per round pound for pound? It's a charm spell cast on a fighter enemy. You may need to heighten that spell to help pump up the saving throw. The ability to spontaneously add metamagic feats to spells will help with that.
Yes, the Wizard can fill up his spell book with spells. In reality, this is more of a strictly theoretical advantage. Few Wizards regularly significantly change the spell list they have memorized day by day. Why? Because knowing what spells you have ready without having to constantly skim over your character sheet, having few spells to keep track of and learning to master the tricks and tactics of those spells, is actually a huge advantage. And, usually, to be honest, by the time you realize you should have memorized a different spell, it's too late to do anything about it. Yes, sometimes the Wizard player actually does know ahead of time that a particular, rarely used, spell (which, for some reason, can't be put on a scroll) is going to be useful. Advantage Wizard. UNLESS, the Sorcerer, who should be privy to the same knowledge, compensates by using a planar binding to get a creature who can do the magic for him. Yes, a Wizard can cast planar binding too. But, the bound creature can escape with a successful charisma check. The Sorcerer is going to be more likely to succeed against this.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Each class actually requires a different set of tactics and each player, depending on their mind set, is going to excel at one or the other set of tactics. I postulate that a really good Wizard player may not be able to get all the bang available from a Sorcerer character and vice versa. Further, house rules are going to have an impact on which class has the upper hand - for example, can a still, silent illusion spell cast with eschewed materials be detected by somebody just standing there? We had a long debate about this and Paizo employees chose not to clarify one way or the other. It's going to come down to your GM's call and it will have an impact on which class is stronger.

So, is a Sorcerer stronger than a Wizard or vice versa? The answer is "cheese".


ZombieTroll wrote:
wanders through thread

Is Obvious Troll your brother?


Quandary wrote:

Don`t we feed Trolls to the Tarrasque around here?

Seriously, Sorc vs. Wiz is so old and so silly, having both available is funner and more interesting, and certainly the Bloodline abilities now make Sorcerors even more unique and lessen the whole Spell Level vs. Slots debate.

I'm not too fond of trolls. Too rubbery. Even their bones are chewy. And they squeak between my armored teeth. They're like big Swedish Fish without the sugar. And without personal hygiene.

Yuck.

Give me elves any day. Not much meat on the bones, but at least they're clean and taste of elderberry.


LilithsThrall wrote:


Also, Sorcerers aren't variant Wizards. A well optimized Sorcerer requires an entirely different mind set.

Agreed. And in addition to charm and bindings, a sorcerer's leadership score will be far higher than a wizards. Now, I've heard people say that a 10th level wizard "only" need a 14 charisma to get his 8th level cohort, but that assumes a he's never caused the death of a cohort and that he's not chosen the familiar. A Sorcerer will have a leadership score of 16 or 17 at that time - which not only means that he'll have his 8th level companion even if he's caused the death of one, but also means that he'll have a 4th level, a 3rd level, 3 2nd level and 30 first level followers (compared to the wizard's 5 first level followers).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Would it be a threadjack if I admitted to likeing them both about equally?


I prefer sorcerers to wizards.

They lend to my preferred play-style and character-style much better.

The mysterious wonder that is the sorcerer is teh awesomez!


@OP:
Yo! although depends on the concept - If a character _researches_ they're a wizard, if a character _practices_, they're a sorcerer.

Primarily.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I favored wizards in v3.5. Since switching over to Pathfinder, however, I clearly prefer sorcerers.

Thanks to Paizo, their biggest problems are now gone (namely the lack of class abilities and options).


Ravingdork wrote:

I favored wizards in v3.5. Since switching over to Pathfinder, however, I clearly prefer sorcerers.

Thanks to Paizo, their biggest problems are now gone (namely the lack of class abilities and options).

Agreed. In 3.5, wizards were far more versitile casters due to Scribe Scroll allowing them to carry scrolls of utility spells without wasting their spell slots. In Pathfinder, Sorcerers have a host of abilities tied to their bloodline that allow for all sorts of options beyond spellcasting.


I've played Sorcerers the last few years because playing Wizards feels like cheating to me. Playing Godmode in DnD loses it's thrill super fast.


K wrote:
I've played Sorcerers the last few years because playing Wizards feels like cheating to me. Playing Godmode in DnD loses it's thrill super fast.

This perception that Wizards are God compared to Sorcerers is largely a deception. If Sorcerer characters were allowed to make full use of their powers, they'd be just as powerful. But GMs are far more likely to call rule zero against the kinds of power plays Sorcerers excel at.


LilithsThrall wrote:
This perception that Wizards are God compared to Sorcerers is largely a deception.

No.

LilithsThrall wrote:
If Sorcerer characters were allowed to make full use of their powers, they'd be just as powerful. But GMs are far more likely to call rule zero against the kinds of power plays Sorcerers excel at.

WAT.

Why would a DM restrict a sorcerer, but not a wizard? This does not make any sense.


Malaclypse wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
This perception that Wizards are God compared to Sorcerers is largely a deception.

No.

LilithsThrall wrote:
If Sorcerer characters were allowed to make full use of their powers, they'd be just as powerful. But GMs are far more likely to call rule zero against the kinds of power plays Sorcerers excel at.

WAT.

Why would a DM restrict a sorcerer, but not a wizard? This does not make any sense.

My question was going to be how? Once you know the spell it is yours. It is not in a spellbook that can be taken away.


Thraxus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

I favored wizards in v3.5. Since switching over to Pathfinder, however, I clearly prefer sorcerers.

Thanks to Paizo, their biggest problems are now gone (namely the lack of class abilities and options).

Agreed. In 3.5, wizards were far more versitile casters due to Scribe Scroll allowing them to carry scrolls of utility spells without wasting their spell slots. In Pathfinder, Sorcerers have a host of abilities tied to their bloodline that allow for all sorts of options beyond spellcasting.

With the new human favoured class ability, I think you will find that *human* sorcerers can be alot more versatile than wizards by virtue of having such a wide repertoire to spontaneously cast from.

Sorcerers are essentially pigeonholed into being humans now, so we might as well compare them against wizards on that basis.


LilithsThrall wrote:
This perception that Wizards are God compared to Sorcerers is largely a deception. If Sorcerer characters were allowed to make full use of their powers, they'd be just as powerful. But GMs are far more likely to call rule zero against the kinds of power plays Sorcerers excel at.

Citation Please.

****************************************

I like sorcerers for ease of play for other people. But for me when I'm playing, It's wizard. I can handle the spells memorization, I know I'll scribe the others I might need, I'll have what I want when I need/want it, and I can just about garauntee effectiveness.

At higher level simply saving some slots to prep later means I'll have the versitility I'll need then, without wasting slots on spells I might not use that day, and I'm only a single spell behind the sorcerer for each spell level (and am occasionally ahead).

Now sorcerer's aren't bad -- but honestly with the APG out, if I want to play a sorcerer I'll play an Oracle.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards.

Yeah, I prefer playing Sorcerers to Wizards.

DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND ???

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:

Yeah, Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards.

Yeah, I prefer playing Sorcerers to Wizards.

DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND ???

I'm having a Keanu momement. Whoa.


Gorbacz wrote:

Yeah, Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards.

Yeah, I prefer playing Sorcerers to Wizards.

DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND ???

Old memes are old.

Liberty's Edge

Malaclypse wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

Yeah, Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards.

Yeah, I prefer playing Sorcerers to Wizards.

DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND ???

Old memes are old.

Tautology, Tautology! Caw Caw!


I prefer beer. Wanders of to find some....


I prefer sorcerers. I hate picking spells to memorize for the day. Sorcerers are just easier and cooler concept wise. Wizards though I think are more powerful in the end even if you take human and gain 20 extra known spells for a sorcerer. You just have to put the work in figuring out what spells you need for the day.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Studpuffin wrote:
Malaclypse wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

Yeah, Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards.

Yeah, I prefer playing Sorcerers to Wizards.

DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND ???

Old memes are old.
Tautology, Tautology! Caw Caw!

The First Rule of Tautology Club is the First Rule of Tautology Club.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Studpuffin wrote:
Malaclypse wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

Yeah, Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards.

Yeah, I prefer playing Sorcerers to Wizards.

DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND ???

Old memes are old.
Tautology, Tautology! Caw Caw!
The First Rule of Tautology Club is the First Rule of Tautology Club.

Damn you TOZ for posting that while I'm drunk. Now I'll just stare at the wall and drool.


I like playing sorcerers... but I like playing them because I like the challenge of making them effective with limited spells. And I find I usually have them stocked up with scrolls and low-level wands to increase my versatility. I admit though that if I didn't have those options to increase my ... well, options, I would be far more easily bored playing a sorcerer. I admit that I try to push the envelope, but MOST sorcerer-players that I have personally witnessed tend to play Sorcerers as the glass cannon: "Fireball... magic missile ... lightning bolt... fireball... magic missile ... lightning bolt... scorching ray..." Lather, rinse, repeat. See a pattern here? Nothing wrong with that, I guess. If that's what you enjoy, by all means, play it.

I will say this for Sorcerers though; in a pitched duel, 9 times out of 10 the sorcerer will whip the wizard. Wizard spell preparation doesn't help as much when you don't know what you will be facing, and in a spontaneous throw-down, the sorcerer has the definite advantage: All his tricks, all the time, until/unless he runs out of slots. Wizard may have more options at his disposal and therefore has a TREMENDOUS advantage in the long run. But I think my good friend Xykon put it best: "I know people think I'm stupid. Because I didn't earn my power. Because I get bored easily. Because I have no interest in strategy or tactics or contingency planning.... But I'll tell you a secret: Only two things really matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide."

Words of wisdom? Or just the rantings of an undead evil overlord? You decide.


Gorbacz wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The First Rule of Tautology Club is the First Rule of Tautology Club.
Damn you TOZ for posting that while I'm drunk. Now I'll just stare at the wall and drool.

Isn't that what you always do? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Malaclypse wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The First Rule of Tautology Club is the First Rule of Tautology Club.
Damn you TOZ for posting that while I'm drunk. Now I'll just stare at the wall and drool.
Isn't that what you always do? :)

Sometimes.....he stares at the ceiling.


My PC Wizards love Sorcerers... in the same way you might love your mentally challenged third cousin. :-p

*Pats the Sorc on the head*

"Yes, I know... magic is a part of you. Indeed, it positively flows from your every pore like an open wound. How are those metagmagic feats working out for you? Ah, I see. I'm sorry. Not everyone can be blessed with the power and versatility of a god. At least you're pretty. That's got to count for something, right? Right"?

Disclaimer: These are in-character words, not OOC ones... so if you're going to take offense, do it in character as well. ;-)

I have no idea why, but I -love- playing Wizards with that attitude.


I think the idea of one is more powerful then the other is a very antiquited statement. I've never cared about who's more powerful as long as I feel effective and after talking to everyone I know, both of them feel the same :P

As to flavor, I agree that I tend to like the sorcerer more, they do seem to have more flavor but its almost always in the sorcerers bloodline and not in their actual life. If the most interesting thing about your character is an epic story of how your great great great grandfather was a gold dragon who stood selflessly against the armies of the abyss in some epic quest then frankly, I think your character is boring because thats not his story, its his ancestor's.

Beyond that, I think when people think Wizards today they think of young men and woman who've spent years locked away in some magic school or academy similar to Hogwarts. There are many ways to learn the art of the wizard without that like self study or apprenticeship. The flavor of a wizard can be just as or more flavorfull then the sorcerer if the player making the character puts forth the effort


Oh boy another Wiz vs sorcerer thread, it's been at least 2 weeks since the last one. Hopefully there will be blood this time.

*munches popcorn*


in pathfinder, i like sorcerers more. Bloodline goodness


Malaclypse wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
This perception that Wizards are God compared to Sorcerers is largely a deception.

No.

LilithsThrall wrote:
If Sorcerer characters were allowed to make full use of their powers, they'd be just as powerful. But GMs are far more likely to call rule zero against the kinds of power plays Sorcerers excel at.

WAT.

Why would a DM restrict a sorcerer, but not a wizard? This does not make any sense.

It's not deliberate. The thing that you have to keep in mind is that the kinds of things that Sorcerers excel at are the kinds of things GMs are most likely to reign in. For example, Sorcerers should largely focus on those kinds of spells which are applicable to the widest number of situations. Illusions fit the bill. Yet, Illusions are heavily subject to GM adjudication. So, even as the Wizard is going full on God mode, the GM will be holding the Sorcerer back.

Shadow Lodge

Lillith...

I'm with you on this! Why should the people who have to bend their minds to magic be the best? I want to the Sorcerers in power, not their book savant cousins!

They are magic, so why in the 9 Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss are they *(&^#$% unable to use metamagic better than a wizard!?


Dragonborn3 wrote:

Lillith...

I'm with you on this! Why should the people who have to bend their minds to magic be the best? I want to the Sorcerers in power, not their book savant cousins!

They are magic, so why in the 9 Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss are they *(&^#$% unable to use metamagic better than a wizard!?

Hold up a sec. I didn't say Sorcerers are more powerful than Wizards. I've said that you can't make any such comparison - not one that makes sense anyway. I also didn't say that Sorcerers are magic - I don't even know what that means.


Dragonborn3 wrote:

Lillith...

I'm with you on this! Why should the people who have to bend their minds to magic be the best? I want to the Sorcerers in power, not their book savant cousins!

They are magic, so why in the 9 Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss are they *(&^#$% unable to use metamagic better than a wizard!?

Because patience, dedication and hard work are rewarded more than the "free magic" a Sorc gets. :-p

Shadow Lodge

Good to see I'm still capable of casting confusion. Carry on.

;)


Dork Lord wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:

Lillith...

I'm with you on this! Why should the people who have to bend their minds to magic be the best? I want to the Sorcerers in power, not their book savant cousins!

They are magic, so why in the 9 Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss are they *(&^#$% unable to use metamagic better than a wizard!?

Because patience, dedication and hard work are rewarded more than the "free magic" a Sorc gets. :-p

That's a nice little Protestant work ethic fairy tale. In reality, it doesn't matter what you know, but who you know.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Dork Lord wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:

Lillith...

I'm with you on this! Why should the people who have to bend their minds to magic be the best? I want to the Sorcerers in power, not their book savant cousins!

They are magic, so why in the 9 Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss are they *(&^#$% unable to use metamagic better than a wizard!?

Because patience, dedication and hard work are rewarded more than the "free magic" a Sorc gets. :-p
That's a nice little Protestant work ethic fairy tale. In reality, it doesn't matter what you know, but who you know.

*LMAO*

Wizards are just better, smarter and better looking... well ok, not better looking. But better. Just ask any Wizard.

BRAINS BEATS CLEAVAGE! ;-)

Shadow Lodge

Dork Lord wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:

Lillith...

I'm with you on this! Why should the people who have to bend their minds to magic be the best? I want to the Sorcerers in power, not their book savant cousins!

They are magic, so why in the 9 Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss are they *(&^#$% unable to use metamagic better than a wizard!?

Because patience, dedication and hard work are rewarded more than the "free magic" a Sorc gets. :-p

Bah, that should only be true if you name is Hermione Granger!

Besides, all that patience, dedication, and hard work amount to very little if you multiclass! Granted, you can do the same with sorcerer, but at least it's easier to explain why you can suddenly cast Magic Missile if your a Sorcerer.

Wizard: "I.. um.. saw it in a book and thought it looked fun..."

Shadow Lodge

Dork Lord wrote:
BRAINS BEATS CLEAVAGE! ;-)

Only if you're a zombie.

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