Stacking Bonuses


Rules Questions


I was recently involved in a discussion with some of the players in my group and something came up that seemed off.

The DM mentioned something about having a character with a 27 strength after buffs. I asked him how he was able to manage such a feat. He said that he was using both a Belt of Giant Strength +4 and a potion of Bull's Strength.

This does not seem correct to my knowledge. The belt of Giant Strength and Bull's Strength both provide a +4 enhancement bonus. I could see the Bull's Strength overriding the belt if the belt was +2, but because they are the same type of bonus, they should not stack atop of each other; after all, isn't this why an arcane caster can't use Mage Armor while wearing something like a mithril breastplate?

The only bonus that i know of for certain that stacks with its same type is dodge, but my DM insists that because the enhancement bonus is from a different source it will also apply.

If someone could clear up the confusion here, I would greatly appreciate it.


You're correct they would not stack, the only bonus that stacks with itself is dodge.


ntin wrote:
You're correct they would not stack, the only bonus that stacks with itself is dodge.

Thanks...now to go about committing the blasphemy of telling my DM that he is wrong.

Shadow Lodge

If you need the rules to back you up... Core Book page 11: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

Also, if you still need help persuading him, point out that the belt uses bull's strength in its creation, so they are from the same source so his argument that they're from different sources is bunk as well.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Also, your DM might be confused on the point, because of the rule that untyped bonuses from different sources stack, but untyped bonuses from the same source do not.


Majuba wrote:
Also, your DM might be confused on the point, because of the rule that untyped bonuses from different sources stack, but untyped bonuses from the same source do not.

Fantastic; Thank you very much!


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

If you need the rules to back you up... Core Book page 11: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

Also, if you still need help persuading him, point out that the belt uses bull's strength in its creation, so they are from the same source so his argument that they're from different sources is bunk as well.

I was looking for that specifically rather than relying on d20pfsrd. Thank you for pointing it out for me.


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I have a similar question. Can the belt of physical perfection +6 stack with wish spells (3) bought to increase my strenght +3?


Andros Morino wrote:
I have a similar question. Can the belt of physical perfection +6 stack with wish spells (3) bought to increase my strenght +3?

Yes.

Belt is an Enhancement Bonus
Wishes give an Inherant Bonus

Different category.


Maximum base stat for any character of a standard race, at level 20, assuming you don't have any permanent bonuses to a stat from a class (like Dragon Disciple) is 36.

18 from point buy (or rolling really well)
+2 from race
+5 from every-4-level points
+5 inherent bonus from a tome/manual/series of wishes
+6 enhancement bonus from a stat item
_____
36 base

On top of this, you can add size bonuses to physical stats (if magic alters your size), aging bonuses to mental stats, items and spells which add to everything you do involving the stat (like a circlet if persuasion or a pale green ioun stone) and circumstance bonuses. There's also class abilities which give temporary buffs (rage, mutagen) which usually stack with everything else.

So a 27 in a stat is certainly feasible and not too hard to get even at low levels (on a temporary basis at least). 20 base, +2 from enlarge person +4 from bull's strength would get you to 26 strength at level 3 (assuming you have the appropriate spellcasters or potions). When you add rage or mutagen, it's possible to get even higher. So I'm not at all surprised by a 27 strength.

But to answer the original question - the belt and the spell both count as enhancement bonuses, so they don't stack.


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Yeah. Dodge bonuses stack, if you somehow acquire a new racial bonus it would stack, and circumstance bonuses stack unless they arise from essentially the same source. IIRC.

Bonuses are tricky like that, and it can be hard to remember what gives what bonus. "Does that cleric spell give a luck, morale, competence, or sacred bonus?"


Majuba wrote:
Also, your DM might be confused on the point, because of the rule that untyped bonuses from different sources stack, but untyped bonuses from the same source do not.

Which lead to the question about Belt of Giant Strength.

While the Belt of Giant strength list's bull strength as the spell need for the items creation of the belt. The belt itself is not actually using the spell bull strengths, but is using (ability bonus enchantment = Bonus squared x 1,000 gold), and the spell is more or less fluff in the creation process.

This is why Belt of giant Strength, does not have a duration or time limit on how long you can us it per day. But is a 24 hour all day long effect.

...........

So the Untyped enchantment bonus of Belt of Giant Strength does stack with the enchantment bonus from the spell of Bull's Strength.

One is untyped magic item bonus, another if from a spell bonus....... Just one of many little things that can confused you.

....................................

Now that being said, if you create a magic item, that uses the spell effect bull strength... Say like a Wand, Staff, or Scroll.... they you would not be able to use both bonus.... as they would both be comeing from the spell effect and would NOT stack.


Oliver McShade wrote:

So the Untyped enchantment bonus of Belt of Giant Strength does stack with the enchantment bonus from the spell of Bull's Strength.

Except that the Belt of Giant Strength isn't untyped. It "grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6". So it doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus from the spell.


Bobson wrote:
Except that the Belt of Giant Strength isn't untyped. It "grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6". So it doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus from the spell.

+1


Bobson wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:

So the Untyped enchantment bonus of Belt of Giant Strength does stack with the enchantment bonus from the spell of Bull's Strength.

Except that the Belt of Giant Strength isn't untyped. It "grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6". So it doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus from the spell.

+1 agree, they are both enchantment, so they are type and would not stack.


Thanks a lot you guys for clearing this up. :)


Andros Morino wrote:
Thanks a lot you guys for clearing this up. :)

I have a related question regarding "untyped" bonuses. Such things as Shield Caster (teamwork feat), adding +5 -shielder has a buckler- to my Concentration checks during Combat (not necessarily JUST casting defensively), and 2) Combat Casting, adding +4 COMPETENCE bonus when casting Defensively... should both stack for a total of +9 during combat, correct? Also, if I were to take Warrior Priest, +2 UNAMED bonus to Concentration checks while casting defensively, would THAT stack with the other two for a total of +11?? Thanks.. game this weekend, hope you all can help!


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David Lee wrote:
Andros Morino wrote:
Thanks a lot you guys for clearing this up. :)
I have a related question regarding "untyped" bonuses. Such things as Shield Caster (teamwork feat), adding +5 -shielder has a buckler- to my Concentration checks during Combat (not necessarily JUST casting defensively), and 2) Combat Casting, adding +4 COMPETENCE bonus when casting Defensively... should both stack for a total of +9 during combat, correct? Also, if I were to take Warrior Priest, +2 UNAMED bonus to Concentration checks while casting defensively, would THAT stack with the other two for a total of +11?? Thanks.. game this weekend, hope you all can help!

Actually Shielded caster is the competence bonus, which by the way is not untyped, its competence, and Combat Caster is untyped (untyped = "adds +4 bonus")

So yeah, they'd stack for +9, since they're not the same type.
Warrior Priest also is untyped, and a different source than Combat Casting - while both are feats, they're different feats - so yeah, that too would stack.

The "same source" restriction comes in only rarely actually. I can't even think of an example for it of the top of my head right now.

Dark Archive

Bobson wrote:

Maximum base stat for any character of a standard race, at level 20, assuming you don't have any permanent bonuses to a stat from a class (like Dragon Disciple) is 36.

18 from point buy (or rolling really well)
+2 from race
+5 from every-4-level points
+5 inherent bonus from a tome/manual/series of wishes
+6 enhancement bonus from a stat item
_____
36 base

On top of this, you can add size bonuses to physical stats (if magic alters your size), aging bonuses to mental stats, items and spells which add to everything you do involving the stat (like a circlet if persuasion or a pale green ioun stone) and circumstance bonuses. There's also class abilities which give temporary buffs (rage, mutagen) which usually stack with everything else.

So a 27 in a stat is certainly feasible and not too hard to get even at low levels (on a temporary basis at least). 20 base, +2 from enlarge person +4 from bull's strength would get you to 26 strength at level 3 (assuming you have the appropriate spellcasters or potions). When you add rage or mutagen, it's possible to get even higher. So I'm not at all surprised by a 27 strength.

But to answer the original question - the belt and the spell both count as enhancement bonuses, so they don't stack.

Dont forget Profane and Sacred bonus + insight


@ Allia,
Yeah, my apologies, I just tried reciting them from memory ( I should KNOW better! haha) Thanks for clearing that up.


Another question..............
Magical Knack ( Caster level in chosen class gain +2 Trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice)
and Missionary ( +1 Save DC for three chosen spells, and those spells FUNCTION AT +1 CASTER LEVEL).

do those Trait bonuses stack ( I am doubtful, but depending on the reading, could be argued). The Caster is not a higher level, but the spells function at a higher level.... just curious what you all can say to that inquiry :)


David Lee wrote:


Another question..............
Magical Knack ( Caster level in chosen class gain +2 Trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice)
and Missionary ( +1 Save DC for three chosen spells, and those spells FUNCTION AT +1 CASTER LEVEL).

do those Trait bonuses stack ( I am doubtful, but depending on the reading, could be argued). The Caster is not a higher level, but the spells function at a higher level.... just curious what you all can say to that inquiry :)

My gut says the caster level bonuses wouldn't because they are both the same type of bonus (trait) to the same thing (caster level). The save DC is a separate bonus to save dc so should work fine though.

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

Dark Archive

trait bonuses dont stack.


Name Violation wrote:
trait bonuses dont stack.

Ah, but the +1 Level from the Missionary Trait is not labelled as a 'trait Bonus', even though it comes from a trait...


Midnight_Angel wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
trait bonuses dont stack.

Ah, but the +1 Level from the Missionary Trait is not labelled as a 'trait Bonus', even though it comes from a trait...

that was kind of my issue.. it was not SPECIFICALLY labeled a TRAIT bonus in the text. That was the whole problem, and therefore why I asked. Thanks Midnight Angel!


Midnight_Angel wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
trait bonuses dont stack.

Ah, but the +1 Level from the Missionary Trait is not labelled as a 'trait Bonus', even though it comes from a trait...

The actual text says

"You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks, and Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for you. If you cast divine spells, pick three spells on your spell list. You are particularly adept at casting these spells, so they function at +1 caster level when you cast them, and their save DCs (if any) gain a +1 bonus."

I figured everything after "trait bonus" is talking about trait bonuses the trait gives you. I suppose the text does leave some room for interpretation.


David Lee wrote:


Another question..............
Magical Knack ( Caster level in chosen class gain +2 Trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice)
and Missionary ( +1 Save DC for three chosen spells, and those spells FUNCTION AT +1 CASTER LEVEL).

do those Trait bonuses stack ( I am doubtful, but depending on the reading, could be argued). The Caster is not a higher level, but the spells function at a higher level.... just curious what you all can say to that inquiry :)

Yes, they would stack.

Let's say you're a level Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/Eldritch knight 1. You have missionary applying, among other things, to Magic Missile.

Magical Knack makes your caster level IN THE WIZARD CLASS be a +7 instead of +5. The +2 bonus that it adds is a trait bonus.

Missionary lets you cast your magic missiles at a CL 1 higher than your wizard caster level. This is an untyped bonus, but moreover it is a bonus to a different statistic, and would stack even if it was a trait bonus. Magical knack actually increases your caster level in a class, while missionary just lets a few spells function at a caster level 1 higher. It would be like a trait bonus to natural AC and a trait bonus to untyped AC. They would stack, even though both have an effect on overall AC, since they are modifying different core statistics.


Omelite wrote:
David Lee wrote:


Another question..............
Magical Knack ( Caster level in chosen class gain +2 Trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice)
and Missionary ( +1 Save DC for three chosen spells, and those spells FUNCTION AT +1 CASTER LEVEL).

do those Trait bonuses stack ( I am doubtful, but depending on the reading, could be argued). The Caster is not a higher level, but the spells function at a higher level.... just curious what you all can say to that inquiry :)

Yes, they would stack.

Let's say you're a level Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/Eldritch knight 1. You have missionary applying, among other things, to Magic Missile.

Magical Knack makes your caster level IN THE WIZARD CLASS be a +7 instead of +5. The +2 bonus that it adds is a trait bonus.

Missionary lets you cast your magic missiles at a CL 1 higher than your wizard caster level. This is an untyped bonus, but moreover it is a bonus to a different statistic, and would stack even if it was a trait bonus. Magical knack actually increases your caster level in a class, while missionary just lets a few spells function at a caster level 1 higher. It would be like a trait bonus to natural AC and a trait bonus to untyped AC. They would stack, even though both have an effect on overall AC, since they are modifying different core statistics.

+1 I would also look at intent here. Magical knack is designed so that you can have a full caster level even if you multiclass, whereas missionary is designed to give a boost to specific spells.

However, I would be prepared for a letdown because many GM's will say trait bonuses don't stack and have that be the end of it.


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Caster level bonus stacks. as long as the source does not give a restriction or is same name. Most caster level bonus are treated as unnamed bonuses. and those that are not list it as a certain bonus examples of ways to increase caster level.

+1 Precocious Spellcaster [trait but a non named bonus to a spell]
+1 Varisian Tattoo, evocation [feat, requires SF evoc and affects entire school]
+2 Spell Specialization [feat affects specific spell]
+1 Bloatmage Initiate (feat says it stacks with other feats)
+1D4-1 Orange Prism Ioun Stone in a wayfinder (magic item unnamed bonus)
+4 Spell Perfection [doubles bonuses from Varisian Tattoo, Spell Spec, and Bloatmage Init and other feats]
+2 Bloodline Power (Stormborn unnamed bonus from class)

Caster Level = Caster Level + 1D4+10 if in precipitation.

Magical Knack and precocious spellcaster would stack together because magical knack says the caster level increase is a trait bonus however it stipulates that up to hd. so example would be a 5 level warrior first level wizard with both those traits would be treated as a 4th level wizard. for the spell they choose. If you search you will find multiple references to these all stacking within the forums here, in many wiz and sorc build. And the general rule has always been these all stack correctly.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/varisian-tattoo
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-specialization
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bloatmage-initiate
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/precocious-spellcaster


A new question: GM says keeps saying that I should be dumping spells to channel Negative Energy to harm foes. I have Versatile Channel, Selective Channel, and am a Neutral (CN) Cleric. Therefore I can cast both Positive and Negative energy on a whim, not having to pick one and stick to it only. My reading of the text in the handbook is that I can Channel negative energy to harm foes, without having to dump spells, since Spontaneous Casting of Cure/Inflict SPELLS is what requires dumping of spells, and I am channeling, NOT Casting SPELLS. Clarification? thanks again!


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Channeling is an ability that is separate and independent from spell casting, so you don't have to burn spells to use it.

Remember though, a Cleric w. alignment XN has to choose to either channel(and spontaneous cast) either Inflict or Cure at char creation and can't be changed (except maybe from going from LG to LE, for instance but that is a very rare occasion and likely only done with DM approval).

PFSRD wrote:
A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).


David Lee wrote:

A new question: GM says keeps saying that I should be dumping spells to channel Negative Energy to harm foes. I have Versatile Channel, Selective Channel, and am a Neutral (CN) Cleric. Therefore I can cast both Positive and Negative energy on a whim, not having to pick one and stick to it only. My reading of the text in the handbook is that I can Channel negative energy to harm foes, without having to dump spells, since Spontaneous Casting of Cure/Inflict SPELLS is what requires dumping of spells, and I am channeling, NOT Casting SPELLS. Clarification? thanks again!

you're right that spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells is not the same as the channel energy class feature. You can dump spells to cast cure/inflict SPELLS, not dump spells to channel energy (two separate things). Also Versatile Channeler doesn't say you can dump both cure and inflict spells (I would guess you need make that choice as normal).


What if the source of the bonuses are Ex from two different classes? They have the similar name, and work slightly differently.

Example at hand: Buckler Catch (Ex) and Shield Catch (Ex) from Buckler Duelist and Falcata Swashbuckler. They have similar effect, more or less being a Combat Maneuver with +4 bonus to disarm.


*casts Detect Magic*

...Yup, there's an Overwhelming Necromancy aura here.

As to the question, they would stack, numerically speaking, but I'm not sure if they would thematically. One uses your arm to stop the weapon, the other uses the shield.

Because there are two different methods to make the disarm maneuver, you would receive only a +4 to either manner of performing the disarm, and not the +8 that you would expect.

It is ultimately a GM call on that, though, so YMMV.


If a source has the same name but gives a different type of bonus, does it stack?

Mammoth greater spirit ability:
Strength of the Beast (Ex) The shaman gains a +2 enhancement bonus to her Strength score. This bonus increases by 2 every 6 shaman levels thereafter (at 14th and 20th levels for her spirit, and at 18th level for her wandering spirit).

Orc bloodline power (through Eldritch Heritage feats):Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.

Not that I expect to get that far along. We mess around too much.


If they are different types of bonuses then they stack. So those do indeed stack.

Heh the +6 would even give a slight buff to someone who has used a Tome or multiple wishes to gain a +5 inherent bonus to their strength score. Effectively adding another +1 to their Stength (largest bonus applies).

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