20th level monk and Spider Step / Cloud Step


Rules Questions

The Exchange

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

Um, was it intentional that a 20th level monk, who has infinite Slow Fall, he can take a move action and move half of infinite (which is still infinite) distance as an air walk?


Wow, looks like they goofed up on this one. They're going to have to arbitrarily nerf it. Somehow I don't think infinite air walk movement as a move action was what they had in mind. Any thoughts on how it could be abused? Is it better/worse than having infinite teleportation? (Maybe you could ram into an opponent after moving infinite miles/6 seconds? xP Run around in circles until you make a tornado? Who knows?)


Yar!

I was thinking the same thing myself. On a similar note (though not nearly as important as this issue), shouldn't Spider Step and Cloud Step have prereqs of Slow Fall ability instead of (or in addition to) Monk Level X? I ask this because the Monk of the Sacred Mounted replaces Slow Fall with another ability, so these feats can be taken but have no effect at all becasue half of nothing is nothing.

As for the OP, until I see a better idea or an official FAQ/eratta, I'm rulling that the 20th level monk can climb/airwalk 50' with a move action, following the patter of half slow fall distance (slow fall increases by 10 every time it does so, until at 20th level when it jumps to infinit, so the half of slow fall pattern is a 5' increase each time, and the last one before infinit is 90' halved = 45')

~P

Liberty's Edge

I see nothing wrong with this. Yes it brings gives the monk effective fly speed of infinity but at level 20 I don't see how this is any worse than anything else in terms of power level.

If anything I think it fits thematically as well, if you have ever watched the Dragonball Anime, Goku (who is by all accounts an epic level monk) has unlimited use of his cloud nimbus.


Themetricsystem wrote:

I see nothing wrong with this. Yes it brings gives the monk effective fly speed of infinity but at level 20 I don't see how this is any worse than anything else in terms of power level.

If anything I think it fits thematically as well, if you have ever watched the Dragonball Anime, Goku (who is by all accounts an epic level monk) has unlimited use of his cloud nimbus.

Well, Air Walk always active as a Supernatural Ability or some such vs. infinite movement within the space of 6 seconds is a little different. Or would it be 3 seconds? *shrugs* (You can take 2 movement actions in one round, no?)

Here's the feat in question:

Cloud Step
Your tread is of unearthly lightness.
Prerequisites: Spider Step, monk level 12th.
Benefit: As a move action, you can air walk (as the spell)
up to half your slow fall distance. You must reach a solid,
level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.

EDIT: Well, somehow infinite just seems unacceptable in this context. You could impale someone with a blade at a speed of infinity. I wonder what modifiers you'd add to that attack? My ideas aren't even all that creative. ^^; I'm sure someone could find a way to turn infinite movement into infinite damage or at least some mostly unbeatable assault.


Find one of those spells or feats that lets you add d6 damage to your first attack per 10 feet moved that round. I'm sure there must be some of those around somewhere. :P


That would make the monk absolutely awesome. I strongly suggest to nerf it, to keep things on the status quo.


Yeah! Monks can't have nice things! WHY DO YOU HATE MONKS?!!!!1!!!11!!eleven?!!!!


yar.

It's not about "monks can't have nice things", it's about a feat that allows something ridiculous, even in a fantasy game full of magic.

And monks do have nice things, and they should continue to get nice thing, but what this feat apparently gives you at 20th level is kinda crazy.

Sure, 4e had capstone abilities that were world shattering, and intentionally so. This has never appeared to be the case with Pathfinder. Sure, capstone abilities are sweet, but not in the ridiculous world shattering ways that the 4e ones were. This feat-level ability combo is getting to the 4e capstone level IMO. And this is also a bigger boost for a Pathfinder feat plus capstone ability than I've seen with other combos so far, IMO.

As written, at 20th level, if you have this feat (cloud step), you can fly anywhere in the world with a move action. If you only have Spider step you can do the same so long as you stay on walls, ceiling, and on water, ropes, and other surfaces that normally could not support you.

And although Goku had nimbus, that allowed him to fly fast, not travel an infinite distance in less than 6 seconds (that was a different ability, which acted more like a spell-like ability to teleport). He also had nimbus since he was a kid (level 1 monk for arguments sake), and its ability to fly never improved over time, so it's more like an intelligent magic carpet.

Devils advocate: well, a caster could cast teleport or greater teleport and do the same thing! and at a much lower level too!

...except that is a limited times per day spell. This feat + level combo lets you do that all the time, every round, all day long.

If these feats had a line like "but never more than your base movement" added, then I'd be happy, as that would be realistic and in line with everything else. Alas, this line does not exist. :/

~P


I don't see the big deal. At level 20, a sorcerer can teleport 30 times per day plus bonus spells, up to 2000 miles per teleport. And he won't be stopped by something as simple as a wall. Oh, and 6 of those can be done as an immediate action.

Sure, the monks get a nice FTL drive installed, but he could really use it. The monk's schtick is maneouverability, but at high levels he's got far less of that than any casters.


I think the problem is, that the monk does not teleport, but "run". So he might be able to see the whole world in a move action. Well at least everything that isn't hidden behind a door without a window.

Also as mentioned, this running into a thing at lightspeed (or even faster)will probably not be very good if used in combat.

I think there surely is a problem, which only the developers can fix.
If they won't, I will use it a bit ase timestop. Everything you run in is unmovable. But they can run around the world in a move action. They are lvl 20, so why not?


Richard Leonhart wrote:
I think the problem is, that the monk does not teleport, but "run". So he might be able to see the whole world in a move action. Well at least everything that isn't hidden behind a door without a window.

The ability confers no ability to see stuff when traveling faster than the light. Have you been on a really fast train some time? You can't make out any details outside your window due to the speed, and when things are far away enough to be seen clearly, they are so far away that you can't see any details anyway.

Also, a sorcerer can use Clairvoyance to see any given part of the world 42 times per day (plus bonus spells).

It isn't that big of a deal. Even if you decide the monk can make out everything he sees, it only adds a bit to his powers that he could sure use. A 20th level monk will really be that wise, supernatural being that's on the limit between a mortal and a demigod, being nearly all-knowable of happenings (though he can't see through walls or anything). This puts him more in line with other supernatural classes, like a wizard who can create new dimensions and clerics who can have angels as servants.


Kaiyanwang wrote:
That would make the monk absolutely awesome. I strongly suggest to nerf it, to keep things on the status quo.
Ironicdisaster wrote:
Yeah! Monks can't have nice things! WHY DO YOU HATE MONKS?!!!!1!!!11!!eleven?!!!!

Seriously.

Why not just limit the movement to whatever the Monk's movement speed is at that level, if the intent is to game it. I have no qualms with having it be used as a travelling vehicle-- Crouching Tiger, anyone? Really... How high could a monk jump at that level?

Wait a minute--- Slow Fall requires the monk to be Near A Wall (Or in the case of Spider Step, a Ceiling), regardless of how far he's travelling. So it would seem that your initial position is a misinterpretation, is it not?


yar.

Me'mori wrote:
Wait a minute--- Slow Fall requires the monk to be Near A Wall (Or in the case of Spider Step, a Ceiling), regardless of how far he's travelling. So it would seem that your initial position is a misinterpretation, is it not?

No. Why? Because these feats give you a movement based of the numeerical value of slow fall. They do not give you a new use for slow fall. Also, Cloud Step lets you Air Walk an infinite distance as a move action at 20th level.

Air Walk.

So now the question really is, is this intentional? To some, it looks like an oversight.

~P


Fluff-wise, i could totally see it. I can see the Monk learning to mix Cloud Step, Abundant Step, Etherealness in a final ability capable to Walk Though Worlds.

In game terms, it would allow to slip between the pits of reality, making him able to go everywhere. I like it a lot.

(Even if I could see time-related issues, or even AOO problems).

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

As the author of said feats, I can tell you it certainly was an oversight. I was scaling the feat with the monk's slow fall distance as a word-count-saving move.

I just forgot that slow fall went to (infinite) at 20th level.

I suppose I could have accomplished the same goal just by saying the feats let you go 5' x monk level per round across water/air/etc. as a move action, which would have removed any ambiguity (and the crossover issues with monks that drop slow fall; I didn't write the monk section so I didn't know what to anticipate from that quarter).

Semi-officially, I'd say there is no particular reason that either feat would allow a monk to exceed their normal movement rate. This reminds me of the inane Supreme Cleave "interpretation" that suggested you could move infinitely far (until you rolled a 1) as long as you had an unbroken line of victims to cleave-and-move through from here to Tierra del Fuego.

I think the sheer absurdity of one feat turning a relatively chump 20th level ability (infinite feather fall if I'm next to a wall - WOO!) into infinite movement speaks to the unlikelihood of that being the correct interpretation of the loophole I unwittingly dropped in there.

HOWEVER, I am somewhat swayed by the notion that it's not completely bananas for monks to get infinite speed at 20th level. They are supernatural manga maniacs at that level, so at a certain level, why not?

It *is* kind of a cool notion for a capstone monk ability. It just wasn't what was intended here.

ON THE SUBJECT OF FTL ATTACKS:

On a complete side-note, it highly amused me to see someone bringing up the infinite-move-stab trick. Back in the late 1980s when I started reading rec.games.frp on usenet, before it even split off into rec.games.frp.dnd and .misc, one of the recurring THREADS THAT WOULD NOT DIE (along with alignment threads, of course), was "Champions FTL move-through attack" - giving yourself infinite move and infinite invulnerability as super-powers let you just fly around and insta-kill the entire planet all day long. And the nerdrage commenced, AND HOW!

It was goofy enough as a tactic then, but the rules of the Champions game theoretically allowed it. In D&D/PF, moving infinitely fast does not cause altered perceptions, friction damage, time travel, or any other strangeness. You don't become functionally invisible or blurred or anything else because you're moving faster than the human eye can perceive, you don't pass out from oxygen because your lungs can't process oxygen fast enough, you don't distort the planet's atmosphere or create a whirlwind in your wake, your shoes don't wear out extra-fast, your skin and flesh do not shred into nothing as you run and impact an infinite quantity of tiny particles at FTL speed or peel away from sheer wind resistance, and, more to the point, it does not affect your weapon attacks, damage, or AC. Physics does not enter into the equation. This is a game. You take no "realistic" harm and gain no "realistic" advantages moving FTL-fast, other than moving from HERE to THERE as a move action.

You move up to the guy. ZOOM! You make your attack roll. Done.

You can charge, as long as you have a straight line and no obstacles, but it's the same game effect as a lame gnome oracle doing his charge with a speed of 15.

You can Spring Attack from Outer Mongolia to Seattle and back, but you still provoke AoOs from anyone (other than your target) you move past, and they can still ready actions to attack you like any other spring attacking schlub.

The Exchange

Jason Nelson wrote:
You can Spring Attack from Outer Mongolia to Seattle and back, but you still provoke AoOs from anyone (other than your target) you move past, and they can still ready actions to attack you like any other spring attacking schlub.

Could you? Because to use the feat(s), you need to take a move action and Spring Attack (and Shot on the Run) is a full-round action. So it seems (to me) that the two would be incompatible.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

AlanM wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
You can Spring Attack from Outer Mongolia to Seattle and back, but you still provoke AoOs from anyone (other than your target) you move past, and they can still ready actions to attack you like any other spring attacking schlub.
Could you? Because to use the feat(s), you need to take a move action and Spring Attack (and Shot on the Run) is a full-round action. So it seems (to me) that the two would be incompatible.

As Ed McMahon would say, "You are CORRECT, sir!"

That's what I get for posting hyperbolically without going back to actually check the text.

You can run around the world, but it's a one-way trip! :)


Let's be glad that spring attack doesn't stack with this move.


Jason Nelson wrote:
AlanM wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
You can Spring Attack from Outer Mongolia to Seattle and back, but you still provoke AoOs from anyone (other than your target) you move past, and they can still ready actions to attack you like any other spring attacking schlub.
Could you? Because to use the feat(s), you need to take a move action and Spring Attack (and Shot on the Run) is a full-round action. So it seems (to me) that the two would be incompatible.

As Ed McMahon would say, "You are CORRECT, sir!"

That's what I get for posting hyperbolically without going back to actually check the text.

You can run around the world, but it's a one-way trip! :)

Picks up his half elf monk with super senses:

Monk: "Wait guys -- I feel a disturbance in the force -- some idiot is about to use that line again... I'll be right back."
runs half way around the world as a move action then uses his standard action to stunning fist the idiot.
Monk: "Never say something that damn stupid again."
takes a new move action to move back to where his allies are.
Monk: "Sorry about that, but I got to say -- the guy deserved it."
Wizard: "You know I could have just teleported you there."
Monk: "What and waste one of your spell slots? Oh by the way I got this new scroll you wanted in town."
Wizard: <.<

Now that I think about it I'm going to have to have a level 20 monk with the leadership feat that runs a Jimmy Johns.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Now that I think about it I'm going to have to have a level 20 monk with the leadership feat that runs a Jimmy Johns.

Very nice.

Contributor

Can you give me a page reference to what you're talking about, and clarify the question?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

APG pg 156, Cloud Step feat. Line says 'air walk up to half your slow fall distance', which at 20th level is 'infinity'.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Can you give me a page reference to what you're talking about, and clarify the question?

Spider Step Pg 170.

Spider Step wrote:


Prerequisites: Acrobatics 6 ranks, Climb 6 ranks, Monk level 6th
Benefits: As a move action, you can move up to half your slow fall distance across a wall or ceiling or across ropes, branches, or even water or other surfaces that cannot support your weight. You must reach a solid, level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.
Slow Fall wrote:


At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm.

So you can move up to 1/2 your slow fall distance, but your slow fall distance at level 20 becomes infinite, meaning that you can slow fall 1/2 of infinity. 1/2 of infinity is still infinite so you can go anywhere you want as a move action.

The easiest way I see to fix this is to add the following line on spider step:

"You may not move more than your speed using this ability in a single action."

Same with cloud step.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Monk: "Wait guys -- I feel a disturbance in the force -- some idiot is about to use that line again... I'll be right back."

runs half way around the world as a move action then uses his standard action to stunning fist the idiot.
Monk: "Never say something that damn stupid again."
takes a new move action to move back to where his allies are.
Monk: "Sorry about that, but I got to say -- the guy deserved it."
Wizard: "You know I could have just teleported you there."
Monk: "What and waste one of your spell slots? Oh by the way I got this new scroll you wanted in town."
Wizard: <.<

dude! funniest mental image ever! lmao

Contributor

Ahh, I was looking in the monk archetypes. :)

If you look at the monk slow fall progression, it's +10 feet every 2 levels; if it weren't for the big capstone boost at 20th, your distance would just be 100 feet. So, safest to say the feat lets you cloud step 50 feet at level 20. No trans-Atlantic steps for you! (Or, may I suggest you allow it, but the monk suffers atmospheric friction burns like a returning spaceship!)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The real fun comes from how Golarion's multiverse is set up. Plane shift step anyone?

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Ahh, I was looking in the monk archetypes. :)

If you look at the monk slow fall progression, it's +10 feet every 2 levels; if it weren't for the big capstone boost at 20th, your distance would just be 100 feet. So, safest to say the feat lets you cloud step 50 feet at level 20. No trans-Atlantic steps for you! (Or, may I suggest you allow it, but the monk suffers atmospheric friction burns like a returning spaceship!)

When I was a kid, my brother had a Flash comic where he loses his protective aura, and on the cover you can see him running so fast he bursts into flames, until all that's left at the end are the burning soles of his shoes.

I don't recall if anything like that actually happened IN the comic book, but it was a heck of a cover! :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The real fun comes from how Golarion's multiverse is set up. Plane shift step anyone?

That is one heck of a sidestep.


I'd rule it thus: Yes, you can, in theory, move as far as you want with this. However, you're still limited by your speed, and the feat says you need to reach a solid, level surface by the end of your turn, or you will fall.

That means Pappy Slap Happy the 20th-level monk, with his speed of 90 ft, could run 360 ft (or more, with Fleet and/or Run) straight through the air, but would fall if he didn't land on a flat surface.

The Exchange

KaeYoss wrote:

I'd rule it thus: Yes, you can, in theory, move as far as you want with this. However, you're still limited by your speed, and the feat says you need to reach a solid, level surface by the end of your turn, or you will fall.

That means Pappy Slap Happy the 20th-level monk, with his speed of 90 ft, could run 360 ft (or more, with Fleet and/or Run) straight through the air, but would fall if he didn't land on a flat surface.

I think this is a perfect balance for 20th. Infinite movement was just silly but 50ft doesn't strike me as particularly impressive for such a high level.


While i completely understand how you folks are reading the class ability, I read it differently for sanity's sake.

Spider Step wrote:

Prerequisites: Acrobatics 6 ranks, Climb 6 ranks, Monk level 6th

Benefits: As a move action, you can move up to half your slow fall distance across a wall or ceiling or across ropes, branches, or even water or other surfaces that cannot support your weight. You must reach a solid, level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.

I would rule it as a monk can take a move action, and part of that move can be up to 1/2 slow fall distance across <stuff> but doesnt need to be, is still restricted by normal movement, and must end their turn on solid ground. Once it becomes infinite, i would just remove the "must end turn on solid ground" bit, so they could take 90 ft moves a round, and continue on the next round without issue.

This would allow for the crouching tiger hidden dragon sort of fighting (in a tree, on a rope, etc), and would allow for a monk to use this type of movement as part of a spring attack, without making spring attack any more powerful than it is now. This would obviate the need for a lvl 20 monk to make most balance checks, but I am pretty ok with that.

This would also allow a 6th lvl monk to move 50 ft, with 15 ft of that movement being across a fast moving river, without making the monk ONLY move 15 ft as a move action to cross.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I would agree with your reading if the feat said "as part of a move" rather than "as a move action". The latter pretty much always means, "you can use a move action to do this rather than normal movement".
I'm with those who say to errata the feats to say:
"Benefits: As a move action, you can move a distance equal to your base speed or half your slow fall distance, whichever is less. This movement can be across a wall or ceiling or across ropes, branches, or even water or other surfaces that cannot support your weight. You must reach a solid, level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall."


You can't fall further than your distance from the ground.

Therefore, "half your slow-fall distance" is half of the distance between you and the ground.

So if you are 500 feet off the ground and trigger this ability you move 250 feet.

-S

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

So if you're standing on the ground you can't use this ability?

Grand Lodge

Um, I have another question. Made a quick search, but cannot see anything related.
Is there anything that prevent or keep in suspense to make a grapple check while in the air right after spending a move action via cloud step?
If no, then what would happen after that turn to both the monk and its grappled opponent?

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