If my assassin throws a poisoned dart at someone, quickdraws a second dart with the same hand, and throws it, does he take two-weapon fighting penalties on the attack rolls? Or do I just use his iterative attack bonus?
|
If my assassin throws a poisoned dart at someone, quickdraws a second dart with the same hand, and throws it, does he take two-weapon fighting penalties on the attack rolls? Or do I just use his iterative attack bonus?
If the assassin's base attack bonus is +6 or higher then that would simply be an iterative attack. If the base attack bonus is not high enough to grant an iterative attack, then that would be two-weapon fighting UNLESS the assassin has the Rapid Shot feat, in which case it would be that.
If you wanted to get super technical, because the assassin uses only one hand to perform those two attacks, then it cannot be two-weapon fighting, but I'm of the opinion allowing it is an acceptable stretching of the rules.
|
Rapid shot is for people using projectile weapons (bows and crossbows).
TWF with quickdraw is for people throwing things, and has the nice side benefit to also be useful in melee.
thrower build at BAB 11 with TWF and quickdraw: right hand +11, right hand +6, right hand +1, left hand (all at -2 due to TWF penalty). There's no point to add rapid shot as all attacks would then be at -4 (but you would gain an extra right hand +11 attack). So the better path is to get improved and greater TWF instead... as you don't impose an additional -2 to hit on your "main", non-iterative attacks...
I do not believe Rapid Shot is limited to bows/crossbows. Rapid shot only requires you to be using a "ranged weapon", which thrown weapons pretty undeniably are (otherwise why do you add Dex to attack rolls and why does Point Blank Shot work with them and etc.) This also means that if you have Quick Draw, then (as far as my understanding of RAW goes) you can stack the penalties to Rapid Shot + TWF for two extra attacks per round (admittedly at a painful -4 to each attack).
EDIT: More on topic, you can use iterative attacks if you have them, otherwise it is TWF if you have your other hand free or Rapid Shot if you don't.
|
|
I think Paizo pretty much killed any thrower build when they wrote this: (quoted from the Equipment section, bold emphasis mine)
"Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
However, the combat section clouds the issue with this:
"Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon."
Another exception can be found in the Equipment section:
"Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown."
So, I don't think you can throw several daggers per round under the new rules. Shuriken appears to be the only exception IF AND ONLY IF you are a monk using flurry of blows...
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think Paizo pretty much killed any thrower build when they wrote this: (quoted from the Equipment section, bold emphasis mine)
"Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
The section is clear enough, and here's why. Look again at that paragraph. It comes in two parts:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
and
It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
In the context of the paragraph, every part of the paragraph that follows the sentence "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown..." applies ONLY to weapons that fit that description.
If it were not so, and the latter half paragraph applied to ALL thrown weapons, then any thrown weapon would also only have a crit range of 20/x2, regardless of its normal ranges on the weapon table, which is not the case. This might have been clearer if they had broken it off into a separate paragraph, but it still stands.
Consider also the text from the Quick Draw feat:
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
If using a thrown weapon is always and in all cases a standard action, this would be nonsensical.
The TWF section discussing effective weapon size as TWF thrown weapons simply stipulates how to treat various thrown weapons for the purpose of off-hand attack penalties (light vs. OH). Also, like Quick Draw this entire passage would be nonsensical if throwing a weapon was a standard action, because you cannot fight with two weapons as a standard action; by rule you must use the full attack action to use TWF (yes, there are rare exceptions).
In sum:
Using a thrown weapon is only a standard action if you're throwing something that isn't meant to be thrown. Otherwise, it's just a regular attack action; since drawing a weapon is a move action, you of course need Quick Draw if you want to be able to use a full-attack action for anything other than a TWF throwing attack.
|
|
In sum:
Using a thrown weapon is only a standard action if you're throwing something that isn't meant to be thrown. Otherwise, it's just a regular attack action; since drawing a weapon is a move action, you of course need Quick Draw if you want to be able to use a full-attack action for anything other than a TWF throwing attack.
hmmm... i hope it would be that simple... but what about two-handed weapons? dhtbifom now, but does the core rules have two-handed weapons with a range increment? if not, then your logic is flawless and thank you! if there are, then could one throw them as fast as a dagger? doesn't seem to make sense to me, if this is the case of course...
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
hmmm... i hope it would be that simple... but what about two-handed weapons? dhtbifom now, but does the core rules have two-handed weapons with a range increment?In sum:
Using a thrown weapon is only a standard action if you're throwing something that isn't meant to be thrown. Otherwise, it's just a regular attack action; since drawing a weapon is a move action, you of course need Quick Draw if you want to be able to use a full-attack action for anything other than a TWF throwing attack.
It does. The second-most caveman-iest weapon there is, behind only the club:
Spear.
Two-handed melee weapon, range increment 20 ft.
if not, then your logic is flawless and thank you! if there are, then could one throw them as fast as a dagger? doesn't seem to make sense to me, if this is the case of course...
Yes, you can throw spears as fast as you can throw daggers. If you have Quick Draw and Rapid Shot, you can be a spear-flinging machine. They are thrown weapons like any other thrown weapons, and in fact are specifically called out in the paragraph on thrown weapons above:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
I think Paizo pretty much killed any thrower build when they wrote this: (quoted from the Equipment section, bold emphasis mine)
"Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
You missed the forest for the trees, read the line before the one you highlighted:
Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
The line you highlighted is in regards to throwing something that normally isn't a thrown weapon.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The discussion on whether you can get around this with two weapon fighting is interesting and I don't know how to answer it.
I'm gonna assume one can, as i seem to recall a blurb saying you can throw your offhand weapon...
And thank you Jason for the spear clarification. One more annoying Q: does a thrower gets STRbonus*1.5 while throwing two-handed weapons / spears?
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
The discussion on whether you can get around this with two weapon fighting is interesting and I don't know how to answer it.I'm gonna assume one can, as i seem to recall a blurb saying you can throw your offhand weapon...
And thank you Jason for the spear clarification. One more annoying Q: does a thrower gets STRbonus*1.5 while throwing two-handed weapons / spears?
The answer is no.
Spear is a "two-handed melee weapon" - if you use it in melee you use two hands, and per the paragraph on such weapons on p. 141 you "apply 1-1/2 times the character's STR bonus."
When being thrown, it becomes a "thrown weapon," and per the paragraph on such things that's been quoted and requoted above, "the wielder applies his STR modifier to damage." Not 1-1/2 times.
This also satisfies the sanity test, as I think we can all envision the difficulty in conceptualizing the two-handed brute throw. For a big rock, sure (and in fact I designed the barbarian 'hurling' powers in the APG to allow this kind of thing when raging).
For a spear that's supposed to go straight? Not so much.
(now, it would seem, using this logic, that this would also mean that a weapon THROWN with your off-hand using TWF would still do your normal STR bonus. I think the specific language for using TWF as a specific combat action may override that, but I wouldn't argue the point too hard, as throwing builds are at the far low end of the totem pole anyway for most things)
I feel like I am late to this party, but could someone lay out for me why you don't need Quickdraw if you are throwing with TWF, or am I misunderstanding something?
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I feel like I am late to this party, but could someone lay out for me why you don't need Quickdraw if you are throwing with TWF, or am I misunderstanding something?
You don't need Quick Draw to throw two weapons IF you already have them in your hands. You just take the normal TWF penalties.
If you want iteratives with TWF-throwing, THEN you need QD.
That makes sense, thank you.
That makes sense, thank you.
There are also a small handfull of throwing weapons that are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them... with those you don't need quick draw.
The easiest example is the shuriken from core.