|
The wording for willpower for autohypnosis needs to be clarified to be either works at 0 hp only or when disabled...in which case you can use it with diehard.
Other then that...a skill that gives bonus to save? Ignore caltrops with a fairly simple check. Resist bleeding with a fairly simple check. Act while disabled with no penalty with a fairly simple check. It's all a bit much for a skill. And I REALLY dislike all those static DCs.
I agree. the problem is 'anyone' can pick up a weapon and armor, and thus count it as something to level up. The closest thing you got to this is Ancestral Relic, which gave you a 350k gp limit on an item in the old game, AND allowed you to sacrifice stuff at full value to it...effectively +175k to your GP limit.Cash supremecy is an odd problem.
The wealth per level guidelines have always stigmied the weaker martial classes far more then the hilariously powerful casters. Even the cleric, who was more or less a fighter +more, needed distinctly less magical equipment then any standard fighter.
Frankly, any class that fights against the WPL restriction put on martial classes is a good thing.
That always struck me as being somewhat annoying, and being created by the clash between design ideals in different editions.
The whole "Here's a new sword, time to toss the old one" works in an old school sword and sorcery RPG where the characters are mostly amoral mercenaries who go dungeon diving for the sake of greed; the kind of game where every session starts off with "You wake up hung over in a vaguely familiar room, and you can hear the landlord stomping up the steps towards your room."
But throwing away your weapon to pick up a new one is very out of character for the more heroic style fantasy. You make this desperate young farmboy eager to make a difference in the world and armed only with his dad's longsword...and then he just throws that away the second something shinier comes up! The only way to give the characters a sort of iconic weapon that they keep with them s to ether give them something absurdedly powerful way too early on, or to let them "upgrade" their weapon somehow.
The whole "Here's a new sword, time to toss the old one" works in an old school sword and sorcery RPG where the characters are mostly amoral mercenaries who go dungeon diving for the sake of greed; the kind of game where every session starts off with "You wake up hung over in a vaguely familiar room, and you can hear the landlord stomping up the steps towards your room."But throwing away your weapon to pick up a new one is very out of character for the more heroic style fantasy. You make this desperate young farmboy eager to make a difference in the world and armed only with his dad's longsword...and then he just throws that away the second something shinier comes up! The only way to give the characters a sort of iconic weapon that they keep with them s to ether give them something absurdedly powerful way too early on, or to let them "upgrade" their weapon somehow.
I agree. I think it's much better to allow characters to upgrade their favourite weapons if that's what they want. In one game a religious fighter made a sacrifice of a large part of her gold to her goddess, and had her weapon levitate and increase in enchantment before her very eyes as the gold disappeared off the alter. There's lots of ways you can swing it, but I would have preferred one built into the system a bit more.
Soulknife saves should be Red and Will, not Fort. They're a fast class, not tanks, and a Red save would work for them.
You've got acrobatics and stealth for a class wearing Medium Armour. I think they could get away with having Ranger-level armour. d10 HD is good for HP, and if they're sneaking around the field they don't want armour. Keep in mind also that you've got the Psychic Warrior to tank with. Imagine if you had a really buffed stealth Soulknife with lots of armour, with levels in Rogue and Assassin: that would be insanely powerful.
also: choosing whatever type of damage the weapon does is huge, basically meaning that a low-level Soulknife can ignore things like skeletons' DR, and other monsters like it. A full action to switch is fine, but consider that they can sneak into any setting and be fully armed. This means they can never be disarmed.
The DR/Magic thing at first level is a big deal. It should come in a few levels later.
The Striker form is a two-handed weapon that does 2d6 damage; that's pretty good, especially considering the expanded crit threat range of 19-20/x2. Compare that with a Bastard sword or Great sword, and that's pretty good.
All of this stuff isn't so bad at higher levels, but all at once is a bit much. I suggest going the full Pathfinder route and giving the Soulknife a menu to different types of weapons, differing DR bypassing options, damage types, magic item powers, etc. Just like how the Paladin or Barbarian gets a menu of options for their powers, the Soulknife could augment theirs in the same way.
This could replace the mental arithmatic for the magic weapon bonus. Just give a list of abilities to choose from, and at higher level they can choose their Soulknife Augmentation from additional choices (ie: damage type menu; then minor magical powers; then major magical powers, etc.)
I don't know that having access to all the different powers is a good idea. Switching to a different magical weapon by simply resting has always been a bit iffy for me. I say the powers should be permanent when chosen, but give more abilities. Customize those mind blades!
Also: Int+6 is a lot of skill points for a full BAB, Medium armor, always armed fighter.
also: choosing whatever type of damage the weapon does is huge, basically meaning that a low-level Soulknife can ignore things like skeletons' DR, and other monsters like it. A full action to switch is fine, but consider that they can sneak into any setting and be fully armed. This means they can never be disarmed.
The DR/Magic thing at first level is a big deal. It should come in a few levels later.
The Striker form is a two-handed weapon that does 2d6 damage; that's pretty good, especially considering the expanded crit threat range of 19-20/x2. Compare that with a Bastard sword or Great sword, and that's pretty good.
All of this stuff isn't so bad at higher levels, but all at once is a bit much. I suggest going the full Pathfinder route and giving the Soulknife a menu to different types of weapons, differing DR bypassing options, damage types, magic item powers, etc. Just like how the Paladin or Barbarian gets a menu of options for their powers, the Soulknife could augment theirs in the same way.
This could replace the mental arithmatic for the magic weapon bonus. Just give a list of abilities to choose from, and at higher level they can choose their Soulknife Augmentation from additional choices (ie: damage type menu; then minor magical powers; then major magical powers, etc.)
I don't know that having access to all the different powers is a good idea. Switching to a different magical weapon by simply resting has always been a bit iffy for me. I say the powers should be permanent when chosen, but give more abilities. Customize those mind blades!Also: Int+6 is a lot of skill points for a full BAB, Medium armor, always armed fighter.
Just to point out on two bits:
DR/Magic is worthless. Seriously worthless. Most martial classes - if not ALL martial classes - will have a magic weapon by level 2, 3 tops.
Secondly, never disarmed really isn't that big of a deal. It certainly doesn't give the monk anything to tell his parents about when his report card comes in. I've seen it thrown around a lot, both here and with monks, so I need to ask - just how often has "always has a weapon" come into play in your games? Does EVERY game have a section where the PCs go to jail? And even then, how long does that quest last?
I'll answer that question: I have started a game with the PCs all prisoners in jail, desperate to escape. Your first level monk or soulknife tends to shine in that situation! Of course as soon as they take down a guard or two, the fighters get armed and start kicking bottom ...
But at higher level ... doesn't usually happen, I have to confess.
It's very telling to me that of all the component parts currently out in the Beta, most of the discussion in this thread has been revolving around the soulknife...
So I'll be working this week to get a second Beta release of the soulknife out.
Expect to see some fairly significant changes.
And on that note, I've sent off a revised soulknife Beta for internal design review. I'll update once it's been posted for public playtesting and review. :)
|
I don't think I've mentioned this yet (and if I have, it needs to be re-iterated)...
... I. Can't. Wait. To play.... a Thrallherd :D
I'm loving the changes to it! The +2 to a social skill (don't remember the choices, just know I'll be taking Diplomacy every time!) is a great addition that isn't too powerful, but sort of fills in the small holes in the original class.
Also, the two feats I've seen for it are pretty awesome as well. I know I'll be picking up Master's Voice ASAP. I'd love to see a slew of extra feats for this class, as I'm a feat-lover (not a feet-lover :P).
I like that 10th level grants you access to the extra five Leadership Scores, but I wonder if that's enough? The character I have in mind will max the table when it hits 10th Thrallherd.... on the other hand, having more Leadership levels is a very powerful thing, so... I'm kind of split on this one. Definitely agree with it going at least to 30th though, and only having above 25th when maxing the Prestige Class :)
So, I'm loving it, just throw in a few extra feats and I'll go crazy waiting for the release!
It's very telling to me that of all the component parts currently out in the Beta, most of the discussion in this thread has been revolving around the soulknife...
So I'll be working this week to get a second Beta release of the soulknife out.
Expect to see some fairly significant changes.
The nail that sticks out the farthest gets hammered first. :D
Just to point out on two bits:
DR/Magic is worthless. Seriously worthless. Most martial classes - if not ALL martial classes - will have a magic weapon by level 2, 3 tops.
Secondly, never disarmed really isn't that big of a deal. It certainly doesn't give the monk anything to tell his parents about when...
DR/Magic can be VERY useful against monsters. There are a bunch of monsters that will be affected by it at higher level...Animals, Magical Beasts, Giants w/out magic weapons, Humanoids of same, even Fey and possibly constructs and undead!
Against PC's, no, not useful.
never disarmed is not the problem with the instant replacement. Impossible to sunder is more the problem. You literally can't take his blade away by ANY MEANS. That's strong. The monk has his fists, sure, but his fists aren't +5 Holy Giantbane Keen throwing/returning TH Swords, either.
==Aelryinth
Impossible to sunder is more the problem. You literally can't take his blade away by ANY MEANS. That's strong. The monk has his fists, sure, but his fists aren't +5 Holy Giantbane Keen throwing/returning TH Swords, either.
No, they just hit you half-a-dozen times for more damage than a greatsword - monk unarmed attacks are sufficiently deadly without all those features.
I wonder, though. Perhaps sundering the mindblade should carry some sort of penalty? A save vs stunning, or a quantity of damage, or even a full round before the blade can be re-formed?
Against PC's, no, not useful.
Kind of OT but here was my solution to this. I offer players the ability to enhance their weapons non-magically. They get the standard +1, +2 etc but it is a non-magical enhancement done by a master weaponsmith or the like. The downside (for them) is that it doesn't penetrate DR/magic, which allows me to make things more challenging with the use of DR/magic for a few levels longer which is a boon to me. The upside for them is that it can't be dispelled or disjoined, and functions just fine in an anti-magic zone.
I thought it was a relatively elegant solution that allowed me to maintain the pretense of a low-magic world and elminate magic shop syndrome while not denying players basic level-assumed faculties.
Just to point out on two bits:
DR/Magic is worthless. Seriously worthless. Most martial classes - if not ALL martial classes - will have a magic weapon by level 2, 3 tops.
Secondly, never disarmed really isn't that big of a deal. It certainly doesn't give the monk anything to tell his parents about when...
DR/Magic can be VERY useful against monsters. There are a bunch of monsters that will be affected by it at higher level...Animals, Magical Beasts, Giants w/out magic weapons, Humanoids of same, even Fey and possibly constructs and undead!
Against PC's, no, not useful.
never disarmed is not the problem with the instant replacement. Impossible to sunder is more the problem. You literally can't take his blade away by ANY MEANS. That's strong. The monk has his fists, sure, but his fists aren't +5 Holy Giantbane Keen throwing/returning TH Swords, either.
==Aelryinth
Any creature that has dr/magic has natural weapons that are considered magical. At least, so it was in 3.5. Admittingly animals still lose out, but most magic animals will have either dr/magic or their main form of attack will be something that bypasses DR, be it breath or gaze or grappling or what have you.
For reference sake though, I'm...not seeing where the soulknife gets the DR/Magic, where is it? <_<
As for sundering, I've yet to see anything sundered at all. Like, ever, in any game. It just seems like a really bizarre complaint to me, because I've never seen it happen.
As for sundering, I've yet to see anything sundered at all. Like, ever, in any game. It just seems like a really bizarre complaint to me, because I've never seen it happen.
I have. A big ogre fighter with an adamantium greatsword took our party-fighter's sword to the cleaners. We were most unimpressed.
OK, after quite a bit of number crunching, overhauling, back and forth design discussions, and revisions, the new Beta for the soulknife is out.
Um.
You slowed it down and put level restricts in, but didn't really fix anything.
level 1 - Gets quick draw, throwing/returning for free, 'throw anything' and a magical weapon before anyone else does. AND a bonus feat?
Easy access to the Arcane Archer AoE and whirlwind?
Still gets access to Pounce, denied Fighters?
Still gets the ability to attack stats instead of hit points? It may be iconic, but its hugely overpowered.
Powerful Blow next to Powerful strikes makes NO sense. The latter ability is much stronger...and also works off Psychic Focus.
AND gets weapon specials? Truly the be-all weapon...
Kindly note that by allowing it be recharged as a swift action, you're letting Psychic Strike be used twice on its opening blow, or any full attack. that's a game-changer. At least you got rid of increasing the psychic strike damage!
He still keeps all enhancement bonuses in an AM field. that's wrong.
There's NOTHING there to address the gold bias and money not spent.
I don't see a way to enhance the AC of the shield build.
Note: In enhanced Mind Blade there's no place to say you can redo the bonuses in 8 hours. It's not mentioned until you get Additional Configuration.
=========
Your Soulknife is all over the place.
You need to:
Address the gold imbalance problem. USe tattoes or something, and 'pay' the gold to the tattoo to enhance the mindblade.
REMOVE all 'blade skills' that duplicate skill tricks. Focus on the power of the blade, not the skill in using it. Things like whirlwind and AOE shots and double strike and sidestep, etc, should all be taken as feats.
Really tamp down on the Soul cutting ability. That's ten to twenty points of ability damage at the time it comes in. That can potentially take down just about ANYTHING.
You basically have access to ALL items on the magical weapon chart at all times, and potentially 3 different sets of them, depending on your skills. I reiterate that this is too strong. Any wise Soulknife will customize his blade to the task at hand with at least two Banes. I suggest he should build a pool of enhancements that he can draw from, forcing each soulknife to have a unique array he can bring to bear based on his needs as he levels, swapping in and out...similar to a spellcaster. You are instead giving them access to ALL the spells/magic weapon powers as they need them, without them having to level as they swap them in/out. that's HUGE for a weapon wielder.
Keep in mind he's got the world's most versatile +7 equivalent weapon at level 11...something other classes don't get til 16 or so! And he doesn't even have to pay for it!
I think you need to redefine the Soulknife from Blade Skill to Blade Power. Invest in the blade. Skills are a fighter's shtick. It's not like anyone can get rid of his blade, but the flavor is totally different. Definitely try to avoid overlapping with good feats and the abilities of other classes...and 'just restricted to the mindblade' doesn't justify things, because the soulknife is NEVER without his weapon.
I'd lose the psychic strike entirely, and relegate it to a feat. Make the mindblade mandatory +1 to +5, and limit the amount of 'extras' you can put on the sword. Also, don't let them throw it with multiple attacks until they get Quick Draw.
==Aelryinth
Any creature that has dr/magic has natural weapons that are considered magical. At least, so it was in 3.5. Admittingly animals still lose out, but most magic animals will have either dr/magic or their main form of attack will be something that bypasses DR, be it breath or gaze or grappling or what have you.
For reference sake though, I'm...not seeing where the soulknife gets the DR/Magic, where is it? <_<
As for sundering, I've yet to see anything sundered at all. Like, ever, in any game. It just seems like a really bizarre complaint to me, because I've never seen it happen.
most magical beasts (griffons, manticore, pegasi, hydras, etc) don't have DR/magic. nor do most aberrations, at least until high levels. now, if we're talking PUNCHING dr/magic, the only benefit the soulknife has is that he gets it right away. by level 3, not a factor.
==Aelryinth
|
Honestly, Aelrynith, a lot of your criticisms are things that have been true of the class since it first appeared in 3e. There's nothing really "new" here, in terms of what you see as problems.
level 1 - Gets quick draw, throwing/returning for free, 'throw anything' and a magical weapon before anyone else does. AND a bonus feat?
No, they don't get "Quick Draw" until 5th level, the same as the 3e version, though they don't even really get the feat, just the benefits of it in regards to their mindblade(s). And since when do they get Throw Anything? Yes, a soulknife can throw their blade(s) at 1st level when 3e soulknives didn't get throw mind blade until 2nd level, true, but the 3e version had a 30 ft. range increment. At best this version has a 20 ft. range.
Easy access to the Arcane Archer AoE and whirlwind?
They don't get Bladestorm until 16th level, the same character level a Fighter 5/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 10 would get their semi-equivalent ability at. Bladewind, the Whirlwind Attack analogue, isn't available until class level 8. A fighter could have it as early as level 5. (Dodge/Mobility at lvl 1, Combat Expertise at lvl 2, Spring Attack at lvl 4, and Whirlwind Attack at lvl 5.)
Still gets access to Pounce, denied Fighters?
Yes, at the cost of their psionic focus each time they use it. And any 4th level or higher psychic warrior can get it too, with the Psionic Lion's Charge 2nd level power. 3 PP, as a swift action, and you too can make a full attack after a charge.
Still gets the ability to attack stats instead of hit points? It may be iconic, but its hugely overpowered.
Been there since the 3e version, not likely to go away.
Powerful Blow next to Powerful strikes makes NO sense. The latter ability is much stronger...and also works off Psychic Focus.
These could be worded better true.
He still keeps all enhancement bonuses in an AM field. that's wrong.
If he can make a DC 20 Will save every round. Same as the 3e version.
There's NOTHING there to address the gold bias and money not spent.
That's sort of the class's main ability - weapons that are just fundamentally a part of them, that are enhanced in effectiveness automatically.
I just think every critic of this version needs to take a long look at the original 3.5e version (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm). To me, as a psionics fan, this one looks just about right. Powerful, but not too far.
|
|
Honestly, Aelrynith, a lot of your criticisms are things that have been true of the class since it first appeared in 3e. There's nothing really "new" here, in terms of what you see as problems.
level 1 - Gets quick draw, throwing/returning for free, 'throw anything' and a magical weapon before anyone else does. AND a bonus feat?No, they don't get "Quick Draw" until 5th level, the same as the 3e version, though they don't even really get the feat, just the benefits of it in regards to their mindblade(s). And since when do they get Throw Anything? Yes, a soulknife can throw their blade(s) at 1st level when 3e soulknives didn't get throw mind blade until 2nd level, true, but the 3e version had a 30 ft. range increment. At best this version has a 20 ft. range.
Easy access to the Arcane Archer AoE and whirlwind?They don't get Bladestorm until 16th level, the same character level a Fighter 5/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 10 would get their semi-equivalent ability at. Bladewind, the Whirlwind Attack analogue, isn't available until class level 8. A fighter could have it as early as level 5. (Dodge/Mobility at lvl 1, Combat Expertise at lvl 2, Spring Attack at lvl 4, and Whirlwind Attack at lvl 5.)
Still gets access to Pounce, denied Fighters?Yes, at the cost of their psionic focus each time they use it. And any 4th level or higher psychic warrior can get it too, with the Psionic Lion's Charge 2nd level power. 3 PP, as a swift action, and you too can make a full attack after a charge.
Still gets the ability to attack stats instead of hit points? It may be iconic, but its hugely overpowered.Been there since the 3e version, not likely to go away.
Powerful Blow next to Powerful strikes makes NO sense. The latter ability is much stronger...and also works off Psychic Focus.These could be worded better true.
He still keeps all enhancement bonuses in an AM field. that's wrong.If he can make a DC 20 Will save every round. Same...
Umm yeah, that's nice...except of course that the point of this exercise was to FIX the issues that 3rd ed psionics had...not repeat them...no? Ael has some pretty good points and a counter of well it was in 3rd ed so we should keep it makes NO sense really. If it was good, it's one thing...but the bad stuff should be ditched.
level 1 - Gets quick draw, throwing/returning for free, 'throw anything' and a magical weapon before anyone else does. AND a bonus feat?
Doesn't get "throw anything," gets the returning ability for his weapon at short range. Not an issue. You should instead complain that soulknife is the only character that has throwing weapons as a viable option directed at all the other classes.
Easy access to the Arcane Archer AoE and whirlwind?
Accesses the first when the AA would get it, accesses the second after a fighter would get it. Not an issue.
Still gets access to Pounce, denied Fighters?
Fighters do have Pounce, or at least close to it. Mobile Fighter can full attack as a standard a level earlier then soulknives, and barbarians can pounce at level 10 while the soulknife needs level 12 and to lose his psionic focus. Both martial classes get a pounce-alike before soulknives. Not an issue.
Still gets the ability to attack stats instead of hit points? It may be iconic, but its hugely overpowered.
Requires psionic strike, which will typically be once per combat. Beyond that, the stat damage dealt will be the same as done by a level 2 wizard spell - assuming he lands his attack. Not an issue.
Powerful Blow next to Powerful strikes makes NO sense. The latter ability is much stronger...and also works off Psychic Focus.
Psionic focus is a lot easier to regain then psychic strike. Ironically, the actual damage increase both give is the same. 1d8 is just 1 more damage then 1d6. At level 20 you have +5 from one ability, and 5d6 psychic strike...which gives you five more damage with the other ability. The more potent ability requires psionic focus. Not an issue.
AND gets weapon specials? Truly the be-all weapon...
Not sure what your gripe here is.
Kindly note that by allowing it be recharged as a swift action, you're letting Psychic Strike be used twice on its opening blow, or any full attack. that's a game-changer. At least you got rid of increasing the psychic strike damage!
Where are you getting that from? I don't see where you recharge it as a swift. Looks to still be a move.
He still keeps all enhancement bonuses in an AM field. that's wrong.
At level twenty, at which point a fighter can just crit on demand, a paladin can take on a whole army of demons, and wizards are now completely reshaping the universe.
There's NOTHING there to address the gold bias and money not spent.
What gold bias?
Address the gold imbalance problem. USe tattoes or something, and 'pay' the gold to the tattoo to enhance the mindblade.
Why? This is a major part of the class.
REMOVE all 'blade skills' that duplicate skill tricks. Focus on the power of the blade, not the skill in using it. Things like whirlwind and AOE shots and double strike and sidestep, etc, should all be taken as feats.
I can to see degree see this.
Really tamp down on the Soul cutting ability. That's ten to twenty points of ability damage at the time it comes in. That can potentially take down just about ANYTHING.
Not seeing it. At most when you get it, two weapon fighting, EVERY psychic strike increasing skill, and you do a full attack that hits the enemy on all attacks...you do 8 points of stat damage. That's a far cry from the 10-20 you're claiming. And hey, that's the equivilent of two level 2 wizard spells.
You basically have access to ALL items on the magical weapon chart at all times, and potentially 3 different sets of them, depending on your skills. I reiterate that this is too strong. Any wise Soulknife will customize his blade to the task at hand with at least two Banes. I suggest he should build a pool of enhancements that he can draw from, forcing each soulknife to have a unique array he can bring to bear based on his needs as he levels, swapping in and out...similar to a spellcaster. You are instead giving them access to ALL the spells/magic weapon powers as they need them, without them having to level as they swap them in/out. that's HUGE for a weapon wielder.
It's really not. Those two banes means he has two enchantments literally wasted if he doesn't fight a chosen enemy. He has two, not three, different sets to choose from, and that's only if he took the skill to gain that extra one - and it still takes eight hours to switch between, so you can't just call it down on demand.
Keep in mind he's got the world's most versatile +7 equivalent weapon at level 11...something other classes don't get til 16 or so! And he doesn't even have to pay for it!
What.
It's a +5 weapon at level 11. Are you even reading the right class? And a +5 weapon is easily doable. At level 11 you have 82,000 gold. If your weapon isn't crafed - which is dumb, because smart teams have someone who can craft - you can afford that. If you have a crafter, you can easily afford that.
I think you need to redefine the Soulknife from Blade Skill to Blade Power. Invest in the blade. Skills are a fighter's shtick. It's not like anyone can get rid of his blade, but the flavor is totally different. Definitely try to avoid overlapping with good feats and the abilities of other classes...and 'just restricted to the mindblade' doesn't justify things, because the soulknife is NEVER without his weapon.
Skills are not a fighter's shtick. They don't even have skills. Where does that even come from?
I'd lose the psychic strike entirely, and relegate it to a feat. Make the mindblade mandatory +1 to +5, and limit the amount of 'extras' you can put on the sword. Also, don't let them throw it with multiple attacks until they get Quick Draw.
See, now I feel the need to ask - do you think the soulknife was at a good place powerlevel wise in 3.5?
Umm yeah, that's nice...except of course that the point of this exercise was to FIX the issues that 3rd ed psionics had...not repeat them...no? Ael has some pretty good points and a counter of well it was in 3rd ed so we should keep it makes NO sense really. If it was good, it's one thing...but the bad stuff should be ditched.
The mistake of 3rd edition soulknife was that it was weak and laughably pathetic. Making the class good is hardly a "repeat" of past problems.
Just a note - double check your table and your wording. The table for psychic strike and the text for when you get upgrades are at odds.
Umm yeah, that's nice...except of course that the point of this exercise was to FIX the issues that 3rd ed psionics had...not repeat them...no? Ael has some pretty good points and a counter of well it was in 3rd ed so we should keep it makes NO sense really. If it was good, it's one thing...but the bad stuff should be ditched.
Most Ael's points can be directed at the fighter, the barbarian, the ranger, the paladin and the monk and in greater numbers.
level 1 - Gets quick draw, throwing/returning for free, 'throw anything' and a magical weapon before anyone else does. AND a bonus feat?
Quickdraw isn't until level 5. The mindblade is the main weapon, there are no others. other fighting classes can use bows with greater range, what's the big deal? At level 1, the soulknife cannot inflict more damage or do so at greater range than a fighter with an ordinary weapon and a shortbow. if he's fighting anything he needs magical weapons to effect, god help him at first level.
Easy access to the Arcane Archer AoE and whirlwind?
At higher levels than them, too. And while you are at it, look at what you could do with a fighter with Great Cleave at 4th level ...
Still gets access to Pounce, denied Fighters?
Read the APG. There are versions there of pounce for the fighter and the barbarian, and I would not be surprised to see spells that do the dame for paladins and rangers later.
Still gets the ability to attack stats instead of hit points? It may be iconic, but its hugely overpowered.
Wizards can do that by 3rd level, your point is?
Powerful Blow next to Powerful strikes makes NO sense. The latter ability is much stronger...and also works off Psychic Focus.
Psionic focus is a good limiter, it restricts many combat feats that use it to effectively once/encounter usage unless you dip out of the fight for a round or two.
AND gets weapon specials? Truly the be-all weapon...
He hasn't access to any weapon a fighter doesn't have access to by the time he gets it if you play standard wealth-by-level. In fact a problem with the original soulknife was that it didn't have enough versatility to keep up with the combinations that a conventional fighter could pull.
Kindly note that by allowing it be recharged as a swift action, you're letting Psychic Strike be used twice on its opening blow, or any full attack. that's a game-changer. At least you got rid of increasing the psychic strike damage!
Erm, where is this? It's a move action here, I can't see a swift action anywhere. Sorry Ael, but I don't think you read this very carefully.
He still keeps all enhancement bonuses in an AM field. that's wrong.
I'm with you there.
There's NOTHING there to address the gold bias and money not spent.
Just like monks?
I don't see a way to enhance the AC of the shield build.
... and this would just increase the 'gold bias' wouldn't it? Maybe that's why they left it out.
Note: In enhanced Mind Blade there's no place to say you can redo the bonuses in 8 hours. It's not mentioned until you get Additional Configuration.
It's under Shape Mindblade. Could be clearer I agree.
I think the SK should be limited to light armour to balance this out - the cash you don't spend on the weapon, you have to spend on armour to keep up with AC of other combat classes.
The only good thing about the 3.5 soulknife was it made monks feel like they were not the only class to get completely shafted. It didn't have any real advantages overall, it was a very weak class.
Just a note - double check your table and your wording. The table for psychic strike and the text for when you get upgrades are at odds.
Yeah - that was a mix-up between the initial revision and the revised revision... The table is correct - caps at 5d8.
With regards to recharging psychic strike:
Additionally, she may recharge it as a swift action by expending her psionic focus.
However, last time I checked, you can't take a swift action in the middle of another action... unless that rule was changed. And you're expending psionic focus, as well. In the initial Beta, this ability was a free action by expending focus.
However, last time I checked, you can't take a swift action in the middle of another action... unless that rule was changed. And you're expending psionic focus, as well. In the initial Beta, this ability was a free action by expending focus.
I'd expect you can. You certainly can use immediates at any time, so I don't see the precedent in denying swifts at any time. If you were in the middle of full-attacking (say with unarmed strikes), thereby provoking AoO and that foe used their AoO and you had an ability to mitigate damage as an immediate, you'd be able to. So I see no reason to not swift in the middle of a full attack.
A paladin with Lay on Hands and a vicious weapon. Starts a full attack, doesn't like the damage he's inflicting on himself, decides to LoH in between his attacks. I'd allow it.
However, last time I checked, you can't take a swift action in the middle of another action... unless that rule was changed. And you're expending psionic focus, as well. In the initial Beta, this ability was a free action by expending focus.I'd expect you can. You certainly can use immediates at any time, so I don't see the precedent in denying swifts at any time. If you were in the middle of full-attacking (say with unarmed strikes), thereby provoking AoO and that foe used their AoO and you had an ability to mitigate damage as an immediate, you'd be able to. So I see no reason to not swift in the middle of a full attack.
A paladin with Lay on Hands and a vicious weapon. Starts a full attack, doesn't like the damage he's inflicting on himself, decides to LoH in between his attacks. I'd allow it.
Um ... no. A swift action is like any other action, you cannot insert it inside another kind of action except under special circumstances. Look at move actions: you cannot break up a move action with another action without a feat - such as Spring Attack, allowing an attack midway through a move.
I'd say your paladin is going to have to wait until his attack is completed before he can take a swift action. Functionally it actually does not make much difference in most circumstances, when each character acts in a round they do so as a single entity of actions - you can't do a full attack action and take an AoO in the middle of it because while you have the initiative no-one else is acting anyway. But it does make a difference to what you can do in sequence.
Swift actions cannot be done in the middle of a full action.
|
|
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.
Need citation on rule preventing swift actions during full-round actions.
Swift actions cannot be done in the middle of a full action.
Untrue. Swift actions are treated as free actions you can only do once a turn. You can do free actions in the middle of another action.
Many of you seem to be misinterpreting how you must look at this class. Let me break my reasoning down further.
Throwing/Returning: This is a +2 combo. He gets it free on his mindblade as soon as he gets two attacks, and Quick Draw is his bonus feat at 5. Thus, he's at +2 MORE then the table. he's also got basically infinite throwing ammunition. More gold savings.
Note: A monk is a poor comparison to a mindblade. Increased dmg does not sub for enhancement bonuses. All monks get amulets of mighty fists, because they NEED them...and they are NOT cheap.
Throw Anything: You can't usually throw a TH sword or longspear, but he can throw his big mindblade. It's better then a random thing, and he always has it. This is the closest feat equiv.
Bladestorm: Acts exactly like the AoE archer ability. IT should NOT. It should be a thrown attack, and if it hits, you can discharge your Psychic Strike from your weapon as an AoE from the target point. Save for half, maybe. Different focus, differnt flavor, different results.
Blade Wind: This is whirlwind attack w/o as horrible of reqs. It should work as a Psychic Strike Standard Action AoE, activating when you hit someone in melee.
Fighters do NOT have Pounce. A specific, non-flexible variant of Fighter has a poor version of Pounce. If it was a Fighter feat, then I'd say YES, Fighters have Pounce. They do NOT.
Barbarians in PF only have Pounce if they take the Natural Attacker build. As a matter of fact, the only time in PF you see Pounce is as natural attacks (and UA is not natural attacks. Nor, I assume, would be a Psy warrior's artifical claws).
Just because the Psy Warrior gets it doesn't mean he should, or the soulblade. Actually, unless ALL Melee classes have access to it, none of them should. It is simply that powerful an ability. (I personally believe all melee should get it).
Cut the Soul does Ability dmg = Psy strike. At higher levels, you can hit with two weapons. that's 10 pts dmg to an ability score. Then you can expend your focus to instantly recharge them...if they both hit again, that's TWENTY POINTS OF ABILITY DMG. that will kill 90% of creatures in the game, and probably ANY PC. God help the enemy if the DM lets you store a charge there, and you can hit 30 pts of dmg. Goodbye, climax encounter boss.
AM FIELD: he gets to keep the magic on his weapon at level ONE, and he only needs make the save 1/combat, effectively. That's horribly imbalanced. Can the fighter get this for his gear, and the wizard for theirs?? I can see him manifesting a powerless blade, but the extra stuff? Nuh-uh.
Gold bias is rampant here. There's 200k he's NOT spending on a weapon, which he is entitled to. 200k is a LOT of money you can spend on other stuff. Just start saying things like: 11th level, +23,000 extra gold. Level 12, +26,000 gp more gold. Level 20, +200,000 gold more to spend then other characters, and you'll see that not having to spend gold on his weapon is a HUGE class benefit. Can the fighter's weapon not count against his gold/level, please? why not?
I'd also like to point out (let's ignore the fact he can completely reshuffle his bonuses) that he can have 2, then 3 different configurations for his mindblades around. That's the equivalent of having 2 extra +10 weapons tailor made for a situation handy. Gold bias is MASSIVE here. It MUST be addressed.
at 11th, he gets a base +5 weapon, +2 for throwing/returning. A +5 weapon is 50k (+7 is 98k!!!). At 89k, there's NO character who can afford that weapon as a layout in standard build at 11th. FORCING a character to have Crafter feats to stay even is not appropriate (and crafter feats still violate the 25% rule). So it's definitely a bonus...he's got a better weapon then anyone else his level, and likely better then anyone 4 levels higher!
===
PF has made it very clear that Pounce is a special ability, and to reserve it for natural attacks. The Mobility Fighter is NOT a viable example of the ability or its flexibility. Taking an entire alternate course of Fighting ability to gain an ability that is ELECTIVE to a Psy warrior or Soulknife is not appropriate.
I do not particularly care what the problems were in the old build. Obviously, it has not been rebuilt to Paizo standards of care and caution and balance. I could also care less about 'iconic' abilities, if they aren't balanced.
Basically, the class needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up, ignoring its history, and paying attention to balance with other characters.
I'd start with gold cost, then building on the weapon as an equivalent of other classes benefits. I have no problem with an uber weapon balanced against the benefits of other classes...a +5 weapon at 11th is fine against a Fighter's +2 bonus...they amount to the same thing. The ability to customize, however, can be monstrously powerful.
I don't see the Soulknife as a skilled warrior. i see him with a very powerful and flexible weapon. The class should be rebuilt so that it is obvious the power is in the blade being manifested, not the soulknife.
==Aelryinth
Throwing/Returning: This is a +2 combo. He gets it free on his mindblade as soon as he gets two attacks, and Quick Draw is his bonus feat at 5. Thus, he's at +2 MORE then the table. he's also got basically infinite throwing ammunition. More gold savings.
It's still not a big deal. The problem isn't that soulknives are intensely powerful with their throwing weapons of doom. The problem is that throwing weapons are really terrible.
Throw Anything: You can't usually throw a TH sword or longspear, but he can throw his big mindblade. It's better then a random thing, and he always has it. This is the closest feat equiv.
You aren't a TH sword or a longspear. You're throwing a mindblade. It's not the closest feat equiv. because there is no feat equiv.
Bladestorm: Acts exactly like the AoE archer ability. IT should NOT. It should be a thrown attack, and if it hits, you can discharge your Psychic Strike from your weapon as an AoE from the target point. Save for half, maybe. Different focus, differnt flavor, different results.
Why?
Blade Wind: This is whirlwind attack w/o as horrible of reqs. It should work as a Psychic Strike Standard Action AoE, activating when you hit someone in melee.
Why?
Fighters do NOT have Pounce. A specific, non-flexible variant of Fighter has a poor version of Pounce. If it was a Fighter feat, then I'd say YES, Fighters have Pounce. They do NOT.
Barbarians in PF only have Pounce if they take the Natural Attacker build. As a matter of fact, the only time in PF you see Pounce is as natural attacks (and UA is not natural attacks. Nor, I assume, would be a Psy warrior's artifical claws).
So fighters actually have a better version of pounce because they don't need to charge, and barbarians still get pounce before soulknives. I don't see your point.
Just because the Psy Warrior gets it doesn't mean he should, or the soulblade. Actually, unless ALL Melee classes have access to it, none of them should. It is simply that powerful an ability. (I personally believe all melee should get it)
And currently, fighters and barbarians do get a full attack at the end of movement.
Cut the Soul does Ability dmg = Psy strike. At higher levels, you can hit with two weapons. that's 10 pts dmg to an ability score. Then you can expend your focus to instantly recharge them...if they both hit again, that's TWENTY POINTS OF ABILITY DMG. that will kill 90% of creatures in the game, and probably ANY PC. God help the enemy if the DM lets you store a charge there, and you can hit 30 pts of dmg. Goodbye, climax encounter boss.
By the times soulknives can do 10 pints of damage to an ability score, warriors are just critting on demand and paladins are holding off entire armies of evil outsiders. I mean, yeah, players get to do super powerful things at high end levels. Everyone gets awesome stuff. Why shouldn't soulknives?
AM FIELD: he gets to keep the magic on his weapon at level ONE, and he only needs make the save 1/combat, effectively. That's horribly imbalanced. Can the fighter get this for his gear, and the wizard for theirs?? I can see him manifesting a powerless blade, but the extra stuff? Nuh-uh.
At level 1? A soulknife needs a natural 20 to do that. It lasts one round, and then he needs to make another natural 20. Again, are youo reading the class? Even at level, let's say, 10, he has a 3/20 chance of succeeding. So hey, the soulknife gets something cool. How many AMFs do you regularly encounter? Not an issue.
Gold bias is rampant here. There's 200k he's NOT spending on a weapon, which he is entitled to. 200k is a LOT of money you can spend on other stuff. Just start saying things like: 11th level, +23,000 extra gold. Level 12, +26,000 gp more gold. Level 20, +200,000 gold more to spend then other characters, and you'll see that not having to spend gold on his weapon is a HUGE class benefit. Can the fighter's weapon not count against his gold/level, please? why not?
Because the fighter gets to be the most powerful and most damaging character in the g+*&@!n game, is why. Because the fighter class gets a billion bonus feats, he gets tons and tons and tons of modifiers to his damage, he gets better AC then anyone but a smiting paladin. Because the fighter at level 19 has enough modifiers so that a non-magical weapon in his hands is almost as powerful as the ugraded soulknife.
Because different classes have different abilities. That's why.
I'd also like to point out (let's ignore the fact he can completely reshuffle his bonuses) that he can have 2, then 3 different configurations for his mindblades around. That's the equivalent of having 2 extra +10 weapons tailor made for a situation handy. Gold bias is MASSIVE here. It MUST be addressed.
It's not massive. It really, really isn't. You keep saying that it's "tailor made" for a situation, but there's a rather small number of weapon enchantments, and a smaller number of those that are good. When you look at most classes and the recommended weapon enchantments, there's a reason it's always the same enchantment.
at 11th, he gets a base +5 weapon, +2 for throwing/returning. A +5 weapon is 50k (+7 is 98k!!!). At 89k, there's NO character who can afford that weapon as a layout in standard build at 11th. FORCING a character to have Crafter feats to stay even is not appropriate (and crafter feats still violate the 25% rule). So it's definitely a bonus...he's got a better weapon then anyone else his level, and likely better then anyone 4 levels higher!
At 11th, the fighter has +5 to damage and attack easily, and it stacks with his magic weapon. Hey, guess which one is better to have? I'll give you a hint - the fighter outdamages the soulknife pound for pound with ease.
See, weapon isn't everything. In fact, with the way modifiers work, weapons aren't much. The difference between a fighter using a greatsword and a greataxe? The difference doesn't come down to the weapon damage, it comes down to their ability to crit. Certainly the fighter may noot have a +5 weapon as the soulknife does, but he'll have close to it, and his modifiers will more then make up for it.
That's why the initial soulknife in 3.5 was soo weak. "Gets to save money on a weapon" is not a powerful class feature. Everyone gets a magical item sooner or later. It's what you stack on top of that magical item that matters.
This is why I can't take your advice all that seriously. You're putting a bizarre amount of power on "Can save some gold for an item that all martial classes will get anyways." You said that gold can go to other places, but where? You can't buy fighter training. You can't buy smite evil.
Ok, I know this may anger a few people, but I believe that the soulknife should not be more powerful than the fighter. In this incarnation it is. Not because of its abilities it already has from 3.5 (i.e. throw mindblade, bladestorm, etc.) but because on top of that they get an ability at every other level and have d10 hd and full attack progression. This makes them more powerful than just about every other d10 hd class out there. Perhaps make the Blade Skill ability follow the Rage Power progression instead of the Rogue Talent progression. As it currently stands this class is a combination of two classes with a free magic weapon thrown in for good measure.
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.Need citation on rule preventing swift actions during full-round actions.
I'm almost positive you cannot take one action in the middle of another, regardless of what the action is, unless specified so.
I wouldn't mind seeing the ability damage toned down or removed entirely. I have a (3.5) 19th level Soulknife, and I honestly never use Knife to the Soul b/c I think it's too good. Take that for what it's worth. Even if you don't agree it's overpowered, it's a pain for the DM to have to adjust hp, spells, etc. You know, the overall problem w/ ability damage.
My only other perspective is that my (again, 3.5) soulknife has been pretty effective in the team (especially w/ those 5 levels of Ilumine Soul, he's great against undead). I use the variant Soulknife from the back of Untapped Potential.
I mention this only b/c some people think this new PF Beta version is overpowered. I don't want the soulknife to outshine the fighter in pure damage, just give me some flavorful ways to dish out my own. And shine in certain ways.
I wouldn't mind seeing the ability damage toned down or removed entirely. I have a (3.5) 19th level Soulknife, and I honestly never use Knife to the Soul b/c I think it's too good. Take that for what it's worth. Even if you don't agree it's overpowered, it's a pain for the DM to have to adjust hp, spells, etc. You know, the overall problem w/ ability damage.
My only other perspective is that my (again, 3.5) soulknife has been pretty effective in the team (especially w/ those 5 levels of Ilumine Soul, he's great against undead). I use the variant Soulknife from the back of Untapped Potential.
I mention this only b/c some people think this new PF Beta version is overpowered. I don't want the soulknife to outshine the fighter in pure damage, just give me some flavorful ways to dish out my own. And shine in certain ways.
Bolded part is important - you aren't using the sucktacular 3.5 soulknife, you're using the much better third party revised one.
Revised, incidentally, by the same team working on this one ;)
I agree that soulknife probably shouldn't be able to do as much raw damage as fighters. I suppose my stickling point is, right now, they aren't.
|
|
The mistake of 3rd edition soulknife was that it was weak and laughably pathetic. Making the class good is hardly a "repeat" of past problems.
Generally speaking true...except for some key points (like gold disparity and stat damage) that makes most DM shudder and go umm no. I see no reason to actually add those in other then you just like those broken mechanical aspects because you obviously can't have a good psionic mechanic without things that make DM have knee jerk reactions and banhammer it...umm yeah thats a great way to get psionics to be widely accepted.
The mistake of 3rd edition soulknife was that it was weak and laughably pathetic. Making the class good is hardly a "repeat" of past problems.Generally speaking true...except for some key points (like gold disparity and stat damage) that makes most DM shudder and go umm no. I see no reason to actually add those in other then you just like those broken mechanical aspects because you obviously can't have a good psionic mechanic without things that make DM have knee jerk reactions and banhammer it...umm yeah thats a great way to get psionics to be widely accepted.
DMs that make knee jerk reactions and ban things are going too find the class unacceptable regardless of the changes.
One has to eventually admit that, no, some sales are not going to be possible ever. Some people will never look at how things are, they will never bother testing things or even reading them, they will just go with "gut feeling" no matter how wrong, and guess what? You can't appease those people. Trying to is a losing game.
|
|
The mistake of 3rd edition soulknife was that it was weak and laughably pathetic. Making the class good is hardly a "repeat" of past problems.Generally speaking true...except for some key points (like gold disparity and stat damage) that makes most DM shudder and go umm no. I see no reason to actually add those in other then you just like those broken mechanical aspects because you obviously can't have a good psionic mechanic without things that make DM have knee jerk reactions and banhammer it...umm yeah thats a great way to get psionics to be widely accepted.DMs that make knee jerk reactions and ban things are going too find the class unacceptable regardless of the changes.
One has to eventually admit that, no, some sales are not going to be possible ever. Some people will never look at how things are, they will never bother testing things or even reading them, they will just go with "gut feeling" no matter how wrong, and guess what? You can't appease those people. Trying to is a losing game.
But those two mechanics are actually BAD even if the class itself was horrible. No save stat damage is a horrible thing. Shivering touch as a 7th level spell would have cause horrible game balance issue still. And the amount of extra gold causes issues as well. In this case, the gut reaction isn't wrong...it's just that the class was horrible despite this. But hey all the psionic fans around here seemed to REALLY dig those two aspects...so maybe you really can't be a psionics fan unless you like broken stuff. And honestly the more you try and defend these bad aspects the bigger hole your digging really.
But those two mechanics are actually BAD even if the class itself was horrible. No save stat damage is a horrible thing. Shivering touch as a 7th level spell would have cause horrible game balance issue still. And the amount of extra gold causes issues as well. In this case, the gut reaction isn't wrong...it's just that the class was horrible despite this. But hey all the psionic fans around here seemed to REALLY dig those two aspects...so maybe you really can't be a psionics fan unless you like broken stuff. And honestly the more you try and defend these bad aspects the bigger hole your digging really.The mistake of 3rd edition soulknife was that it was weak and laughably pathetic. Making the class good is hardly a "repeat" of past problems.Generally speaking true...except for some key points (like gold disparity and stat damage) that makes most DM shudder and go umm no. I see no reason to actually add those in other then you just like those broken mechanical aspects because you obviously can't have a good psionic mechanic without things that make DM have knee jerk reactions and banhammer it...umm yeah thats a great way to get psionics to be widely accepted.DMs that make knee jerk reactions and ban things are going too find the class unacceptable regardless of the changes.
One has to eventually admit that, no, some sales are not going to be possible ever. Some people will never look at how things are, they will never bother testing things or even reading them, they will just go with "gut feeling" no matter how wrong, and guess what? You can't appease those people. Trying to is a losing game.
Knife to the Soul is, as was mentioned before, rather iconic, and the damage done - until you hit much higher levels - is equivilent to a level 2 wizard spell. It's being blown out of proportion. Yes at level 2 it's a beast, but at level twenty the game is effectively over.
There are no extra gold issues. Seriously, there aren't. I'll agree that "you have extra gold" is a bad mechanic, but it's bad because it's not very good. Soulknife is the only class with a class ability that you can buy. You can't buy smite evil, you can't buy favored enemy, you can't buy weapon training or greater weapon focus. There is no issue here.
Swift actions cannot be done in the middle of a full action.Untrue. Swift actions are treated as free actions you can only do once a turn. You can do free actions in the middle of another action.
Citation/reference please? I have already demonstrated that in other cases of trying to use actions-within-actions a feat is required. You must have reason to reject this precedent.
Many of you seem to be misinterpreting how you must look at this class. Let me break my reasoning down further.
You mean all of us who have played the soulknife before in 3.5 version are all completely mistaken and utterly wrong. Have you considered that YOU might be the one getting the wrong end of the stick?
Throwing/Returning: This is a +2 combo. He gets it free on his mindblade as soon as he gets two attacks, and Quick Draw is his bonus feat at 5. Thus, he's at +2 MORE then the table. he's also got basically infinite throwing ammunition. More gold savings.
All it does is allow the soulknife to have a (limited) ranged weapon that is half-way effective. This is thematically and mechanically fine, because the soulknife is all about the mindblade as essentially his only weapon.
A fighter has the option of using a bow with a vastly better range and equivelant damage. No one is crying broken about that, though.
Note: A monk is a poor comparison to a mindblade. Increased dmg does not sub for enhancement bonuses. All monks get amulets of mighty fists, because they NEED them...and they are NOT cheap.
Or knuckle-dusters, which are much, much cheaper. Even then, the monk does not have to blow cash on armour or shields, so he's hardly suffering.
Throw Anything: You can't usually throw a TH sword or longspear, but he can throw his big mindblade. It's better then a random thing, and he always has it. This is the closest feat equiv.
It's not a two handed sword. How many two-handed swords do bludgeoning damage, or piercing? It's a mindblade. DSP deliberately changed the description to separate the mindblade from the concept of it being a mental version of being a specific weapon and to make clear it is a type of weapon in it's own right. A two-handed mindblade could have the visual form of a giant Frisbee with spikes on it, it doesn't matter. Many melee weapons can be thrown, such as daggers, hand-axes, spears, but I have not seen you launching a campaign to have their costs updated to be +1-equivelant weapons for having the 'throwing' quality.
Bladestorm: Acts exactly like the AoE archer ability. IT should NOT. It should be a thrown attack, and if it hits, you can discharge your Psychic Strike from your weapon as an AoE from the target point. Save for half, maybe. Different focus, differnt flavor, different results.
I have to mirror Prof Cirno on this one - why change it? What's wrong with it being what it is.
Blade Wind: This is whirlwind attack w/o as horrible of reqs. It should work as a Psychic Strike Standard Action AoE, activating when you hit someone in melee.
Again, why?
Fighters do NOT have Pounce. A specific, non-flexible variant of Fighter has a poor version of Pounce. If it was a Fighter feat, then I'd say YES, Fighters have Pounce. They do NOT.
Barbarians in PF only have Pounce if they take the Natural Attacker build. As a matter of fact, the only time in PF you see Pounce is as natural attacks (and UA is not natural attacks. Nor, I assume, would be a Psy warrior's artifical claws).
Just because the Psy Warrior gets it doesn't mean he should, or the soulblade. Actually, unless ALL Melee classes have access to it, none of them should. It is simply that powerful an ability. (I personally believe all melee should get it).
Pounce is an option available to barbarians and fighters.
However, I share some of your concerns, and would prefer that Furious Charge, Greater grant merely an extra attack at full attack bonus rather than multiple attacks.
Cut the Soul does Ability dmg = Psy strike. At higher levels, you can hit with two weapons. that's 10 pts dmg to an ability score. Then you can expend your focus to instantly recharge them...if they both hit again, that's TWENTY POINTS OF ABILITY DMG. that will kill 90% of creatures in the game, and probably ANY PC. God help the enemy if the DM lets you store a charge there, and you can hit 30 pts of dmg. Goodbye, climax encounter boss.
You can't spend your focus to instantly recharge mid-fight (according to most of us), although Exploding Critical would allow that with one hit. Even if it did, if you use two weapons with Duel Imbue that cuts you down to 4 points of damage per hit, which pushes it to 16 points, not 20, and that's at level 20. Now look at what a fighter can do at that level ... for example, a 2-handed fighter variant can automatically critical and confirm with a massive Power Attack with no penalty to hit (Furious Focus) for 150+ points of damage (that's without adding anything on from the weapon but a +5 bonus - no special effects are assumed there).
Now look at what you are likely to be fighting at that level. Neither the fighter nor the soulknife has managed a take-down, although both have done significant damage.
AM FIELD: he gets to keep the magic on his weapon at level ONE, and he only needs make the save 1/combat, effectively. That's horribly imbalanced. Can the fighter get this for his gear, and the wizard for theirs?? I can see him manifesting a powerless blade, but the extra stuff? Nuh-uh.
This is being debated on the DSP boards (where this criticism might be more constructive BTW) and personally I agree that the mindblade should lose it's enhancements in the AM field.
Gold bias is rampant here. There's 200k he's NOT spending on a weapon, which he is entitled to. 200k is a LOT of money you can spend on other stuff. Just start saying things like: 11th level, +23,000 extra gold. Level 12, +26,000 gp more gold. Level 20, +200,000 gold more to spend then other characters, and you'll see that not having to spend gold on his weapon is a HUGE class benefit. Can the fighter's weapon not count against his gold/level, please? why not?
This was a point I raised about the previous version, that the amount of extra cash you had meant you could enhance better in other ways. It is a valid point, but there are ways to get around it. Restricting the SK to light armour means they have to either expend feats or extra cash to get equal AC protection, for example. That's one reason mindarmour was withdrawn and the mindshield has no enhancements.
I'd also like to point out (let's ignore the fact he can completely reshuffle his bonuses) that he can have 2, then 3 different configurations for his mindblades around. That's the equivalent of having 2 extra +10 weapons tailor made for a situation handy. Gold bias is MASSIVE here. It MUST be addressed.
Maximum of two, with a bladeskill, and it takes 8 hours of concentration (not rest) to reconfigure, and his maximum is +9. Also, there are some features he cannot have, like adamantine.
at 11th, he gets a base +5 weapon, +2 for throwing/returning. A +5 weapon is 50k (+7 is 98k!!!). At 89k, there's NO character who can afford that weapon as a layout in standard build at 11th. FORCING a character to have Crafter feats to stay even is not appropriate (and crafter feats still violate the 25% rule). So it's definitely a bonus...he's got a better weapon then anyone else his level, and likely better then anyone 4 levels higher!
Again with the throwing/returning thing. I mean, a mundane dagger has the throwing feature in effect for an equivelant +1 by your logic. It's just the way some weapons work. The mindblade is meant to be a supremely versatile weapon, but it's the only one the soulknife has got.
A fighter at that level can have a +4 bow with +4 arrows, for example - that's the same as a +7 weapon with throwing added on for +8 (using your logic, after all it has range), and he has the same kind of versatility just by selecting different enchantments on his arrows.
PF has made it very clear that Pounce is a special ability, and to reserve it for natural attacks. The Mobility Fighter is NOT a viable example of the ability or its flexibility. Taking an entire alternate course of Fighting ability to gain an ability that is ELECTIVE to a Psy warrior or Soulknife is not appropriate.
It's always been elective to the psywar, but the psywar was never considered overpowered in 3.5 - probably because his 3/4 BAB restricted it's usefulness, and there is no need for this to change. As I said above, I think that the 'pounce' should be merely an extra attack, because it is an elective and easier to get.
I do not particularly care what the problems were in the old build. Obviously, it has not been rebuilt to Paizo standards of care and caution and balance. I could also care less about 'iconic' abilities, if they aren't balanced.
Then you shouldn't have brought it up.
Basically, the class needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up, ignoring its history, and paying attention to balance with other characters.
They did. This is it.
I'd start with gold cost, then building on the weapon as an equivalent of other classes benefits. I have no problem with an uber weapon balanced against the benefits of other classes...a +5 weapon at 11th is fine against a Fighter's +2 bonus...they amount to the same thing. The ability to customize, however, can be monstrously powerful.
That's what is trying to be done. Yes, it needs some fine-tuning, but sadly most of your claims are non-issues.
I don't see the Soulknife as a skilled warrior. i see him with a very powerful and flexible weapon. The class should be rebuilt so that it is obvious the power is in the blade being manifested, not the soulknife.
In your opinion. I see the soulknife as a skilled warrior specialising in a unique and highly versatile weapon. What makes your opinion 'better' than mine?
Bolded part is important - you aren't using the sucktacular 3.5 soulknife, you're using the much better third party revised one.
Revised, incidentally, by the same team working on this one ;)
I agree that soulknife probably shouldn't be able to do as much raw damage as fighters. I suppose my stickling point is, right now, they aren't.
Have you ever seen a soulknife played using the Dire Flail Mind Blade feat from Complete Psionic? (Please no comments on the book itself.) I have and let me tell you it was awesome. The character was out damaging any other class that targets one thing. From a player perspective this is a good thing but from the DM perspective, I would have to adjust on the fly so that this one guy didn't kill or severely maim one character a round. This wasn't some 20th level BS, this was a simple 10th level game and the character managed to almost single handedly take on 3 other NPCs of his level with little to no help from other PCs.
Now, what is my point, you might be asking? You are correct that currently the class does less damage than a fighter, and perhaps isn't as good as the fighter right now. I'm saying that one slight change and the class surpasses the fighter to such an extent to make it broken. What I'm asking for is some kind of middle ground where it would take more than one feat or ability to improve the class above the fighter. I have no issues with a class becoming better than another but it should have to pay a heavy price to do so.
Bolded part is important - you aren't using the sucktacular 3.5 soulknife, you're using the much better third party revised one.
Revised, incidentally, by the same team working on this one ;)
I agree that soulknife probably shouldn't be able to do as much raw damage as fighters. I suppose my stickling point is, right now, they aren't.
Have you ever seen a soulknife played using the Dire Flail Mind Blade feat from Complete Psionic?
(edited)
What I'm asking for is some kind of middle ground where it would take more than one feat or ability to improve the class above the fighter. I have no issues with a class becoming better than another but it should have to pay a heavy price to do so.
Well double weapons have been ruled out so far in the DSP version, so that option is out.
Well double weapons have been ruled out so far in the DSP version, so that option is out.
I suppose my issue with the class isn't so much what it currently does but what it could potentially do in the wrong hands or the right circumstances. In a way, Soulknives are like WMDs and I hold the stance of the U.S. when it comes to those kind of weapons (i.e. only I should hold such power because I'm responsible enough not to abuse them).
Well double weapons have been ruled out so far in the DSP version, so that option is out.I suppose my issue with the class isn't so much what it currently does but what it could potentially do in the wrong hands or the right circumstances. In a way, Soulknives are like WMDs and I hold the stance of the U.S. when it comes to those kind of weapons (i.e. only I should hold such power because I'm responsible enough not to abuse them).
You can say this of many classes. Casters in particular have the capacity to spoil any DM's day. We want the Sk to be balanced with the other combat classes, not significantly weaker or stronger. That does not mean it has to be limited to what those classes can/cannot do.
You can say this of many classes. Casters in particular have the capacity to spoil any DM's day. We want the Sk to be balanced with the other combat classes, not significantly weaker or stronger. That does not mean it has to be limited to what those classes can/cannot do.Well double weapons have been ruled out so far in the DSP version, so that option is out.I suppose my issue with the class isn't so much what it currently does but what it could potentially do in the wrong hands or the right circumstances. In a way, Soulknives are like WMDs and I hold the stance of the U.S. when it comes to those kind of weapons (i.e. only I should hold such power because I'm responsible enough not to abuse them).
I suppose in that regard I would like to see them at the level of a two weapon fighting rogue who is able to sneak attack. This would make it so that their base line damage isn't high but they have the potential for high damage given the right circumstance, i.e. with their psychic strike.
My current beef with the soulknife beta is that it has the appearance of being a fighter/rogue gestalt class which is one of the many reasons all of those extra base classes from the splat books were overpowered. Effectively, the class as it is has a fighter's HD and BAB and the rogue's progression for extra damage and talents. This is why I suggested that the talent progression fall more in line with the barbarian's rage powers or perhaps something different all together instead of every other level.
My current beef with the soulknife beta is that it has the appearance of being a fighter/rogue gestalt class which is one of the many reasons all of those extra base classes from the splat books were overpowered. Effectively, the class as it is has a fighter's HD and BAB and the rogue's progression for extra damage and talents. This is why I suggested that the talent progression fall more in line with the barbarian's rage powers or perhaps something different all together instead of every other level.
The rest of the discussion aside - because I haven't had the chance to fully dive into it all - the soulknife's blade skill progression are the same progression as Rage Powers (every 2nd level) and fighter Bonus Feats (every 2nd level), so I guess I'm failing to see how it is not directly related to other full BAB classes in that regard... Every 4 levels, the fighter gets extra damage, along with armor bonuses, while the Barbarian gets other damage avoidance abilities all throughout his progression.
It's not identical to the other two, but the soulknife focuses on damage, while the other (barbarian / fighter) two focus on being more all-around combat abilities.
EDIT: Additionally, one of the revisions that may take place is taking blade skills that truly mimic existing feats and removing them, and possibly offering a higher-level requirement blade skill of selecting a combat feat (or a selection of feats) as a bonus feat, but requiring the soulknife to meet all the pre-reqs, so I do understand the concerns in that regard.
I will say that when number crunching the revised soulknife, I was comparing both a TWF-ranger with a TWF-soulknife, and a 2hd-weapon fighter with a 2hd-weapon soulknife, to compare base-line damage. For ranger vs soulknife, I was comparing vs favored enemy / vs non-favored enemy, with psychic strike, without psychic strike, and choosing feats / blade skills / ranger options that all directly improved damage-dealing capabilities.