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I think a lone tear drop just escaped James' eye...(note that this is NOT the same as saying all paladins serve deities)Now this is an Interesting quote of you James, are you saying, unlike Clerics in Golarion, that Paladins don't have to pick a specific deity? And if so how would that work?
What did I do?...:(
What did I do?...:(I think a lone tear drop just escaped James' eye...(note that this is NOT the same as saying all paladins serve deities)Now this is an Interesting quote of you James, are you saying, unlike Clerics in Golarion, that Paladins don't have to pick a specific deity? And if so how would that work?
Here is the direct quote from the Campaign Setting and the bolding is mine:
Paladins worship many different deities. The most common
is Iomedae, the ascended goddess of valor and justice. Erastil
commands the obedience of a great many holy warriors,
particularly those who uphold justice for the common folk.
Paladins of Torag are highly sought as military commanders.
Adventuring paladins often spread the word of Sarenrae, the
goddess of the sun, honesty, healing, and redemption—for
paladins often seek adventure as a form of penance. Some
paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who
serve no specific god are actually more common.
The only question left is if these paladins truly serve no god at all or if they serve all the gods of Law and Good as a whole by venerating and embodying those two concepts.
That is what I was wondering when I asked...How would that work?
The only question left is if these paladins truly serve no god at all or if they serve all the gods of Law and Good as a whole by venerating and embodying those two concepts.
Yep, and it is what you quoted of my post that would let a deity like Asmodeus slip in and attempt to mess with the paladin due to his Lawfulness.
Paladin is granted powers of good, not law. So really what ever is granting those powers is a force of good, not law.
In golarion My money is on the empyreal lords as the ones backing paladins not devoted to a single god.
Of the core 20 deities in Golarion, the following have paladins serving them
Thanks for the list, would you also mind sharing a list of lesser gods from gods and magic that have paladins, another poster started a thread asking about those as well.
We thought one step but then someone found a paladin of a CG god, Achille parsall paladin of Milani from the river kingdoms, which is past one step and the OP was trying to find a list of paladin gods anyhow
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The deities I listed are all of those on Golarion whose faiths maintain actual paladin orders or knighthoods. Irori's paladin orders are VERY small and uncommon, while Iomedae's are VERY common and are basically the iconic paladin orders.
You can be a paladin and worship ANY god. But here's the thing.
In order to be a paladin, you have to be lawful good.
If your deity is lawful good... no issues.
If your deity is lawful neutral or neutral good, then you'll occasionally have conflicts between your faith and your paladin vows. When these conflicts occur, you need to err on the side of your paladin code and not on the side of your faith. Religions like Sarenrae and Abadar are very forgiving of that, and thus they have pretty robust paladin orders. Those of Shelyn are not AS forgiving, and Irori's faith is even less forgiving.
If your deity is any other alignment, your paladin vows will pretty much be conflicting with your religion every day of your life in some way. As a result, a paladin who worships a deity of one of these other alignments is on various levels mocking, blaspheming, or otherwise disrespecting his supposed religion, and that, to me, means your NOT really worshiping that deity.
So in my take, a paladin who worships a non LG, NG, or LN deity is simply a confusing self-contradicting weirdo.
Played properly, in other words, a paladin would not WANT to worship any other alignment deity.
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Of the core 20 deities in Golarion, the following have paladins serving themThanks for the list, would you also mind sharing a list of lesser gods from gods and magic that have paladins, another poster started a thread asking about those as well.
We thought one step but then someone found a paladin of a CG god, Achille parsall paladin of Milani from the river kingdoms, which is past one step and the OP was trying to find a list of paladin gods anyhow
Perhaps tomorrow, when I've got Gods and Magic or a campaign setting book in reach.
But no, Milani's faith would not get along well with paladins, and in fact her faith often comes into open conflict with paladins. A proper paladin would NOT approve of the methods her faith uses to promote good.
In any event, paladins receive their powers not from a deity, but from their own convictions in their code. They often WORSHIP a deity simply because many deities have paladin orders that specifically serve them, but unlike clerics, paladins do not actually receive their powers directly from their deity.
That said, a paladin who switches back and forth between deities willy-nilly is not very lawful. That's kind of chaotic.
But a paladin who respects ALL of the good gods' good work, or ALL of the lawful gods' lawful work could work. A paladin can respect Asmodeus's church's adherence to law and tradition. That doesn't mean the paladin approves of their methods, and certainly doesn't mean that the paladin worships Asmodeus.
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Paladin is granted powers of good, not law. So really what ever is granting those powers is a force of good, not law.
In golarion My money is on the empyreal lords as the ones backing paladins not devoted to a single god.
Paladins are granted powers of "good" BECAUSE of their devotion and adherence to an order—that devotion and adherence to an order and its traditions is lawful.
A paladin doesn't need "lawful flavored powers" in order to justify his requirement to have a lawful component to his alignment.
Thank ya for the response. I guess I need to read up on Milani a bit more.
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I see the problem as more in line with god vs religion. In Golarion the gods are distant and don´t command the clergy directly on day by day basis, but somehow the clergy do the right thing anyway without schisms, conflict or variation.
I would think that Asmodeus himself would have nothing against having some paladins truly acting in his name (even if only for public relations), it would even be wise for him to have paladins as a weapon against his chaotic enemies (as paladins against evil are stronger than evil against evil). He could even create an heretical lawful neutral order only to settle such paladins and keep them quiet (he is the god of contracts, if he can´t lie his way into doing this then he needs a lawyer).
But i guess is too complex and confusing to appear in a book (given the already great paladin discussion problems), so Asmodeus´s Paladins are in the houserule realm for good.
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...In any event, paladins receive their powers not from a deity, but from their own convictions in their code. They often WORSHIP a deity simply because many deities have paladin orders that specifically serve them, but unlike clerics, paladins do not actually receive their powers directly from their deity...
Does this mean that a paladin of Aroden could still conceivably exist, complete with spells and powers? Or even a whole order of Paladins who didn't, for whatever reason, shift over to Iomedae?
I have had NPC paladins that followed this really simple code:
"Do all the good you can, By all the means you can, In all the ways you can, In all the places you can, At all the times you can, To all the people you can, As long as ever you can."
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I have had NPC paladins that followed this really simple code:
"Do all the good you can, By all the means you can, In all the ways you can, In all the places you can, At all the times you can, To all the people you can, As long as ever you can."
But that's the NG credo, LG's have a problem with the "all the ways you can" part :)
Why?
But that's the NG credo, LG's have a problem with the "all the ways you can" part :)
Because "any way you can" implies breaking reasonable laws and disrespecting legitimate authority if that's what it takes.
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Why?
But that's the NG credo, LG's have a problem with the "all the ways you can" part :)
LGs won't stand up against the law/customs/tradition (except for extreme cases). NGs will disregard those IF they get in the way of spreading Good Stuff around. CGs will ignore them gleefully.
DISCLAIMER: That's how I interpret the alignments. I don't mean that everybody should do so. I don't mean that the official rules should say so. I do not wish to challenge anybody's perception of reality, mental health, religious views nor his/her position on triceratopses, Paladins of Asmodeus, Cleric heavy armor proficiency and/or nipples.
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And my point is nothing in that creed says you have to ignore laws and customs.
Well, to me "all the ways you can" means by any means available regardless of those means relation to established system of norms in a given society, be these norms legal, ethical or religious.
There's a difference between "breaking the law" and "not acting good". You can break law to do good, eg. instead of burning down confiscated smuggled clothing (as the law orders you to) you hand it over to the needy.
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That depends on if you think any means can be used to do good. Then 'all the ways you can' would include evil acts for a good end. However, if you think what do you is just as important as the ends you achieve, then an evil act is not 'good you can do' and therefore does not fall into 'all the ways you can'.
If a law is unjust, it is still a law. Breaking the law is not doing good. Thus you will not do it. You will instead campaign to have the law changed, which is doing good.
No, it says 'do good in all ways you can'. Breaking a law is not doing good, so is not 'a way you can do good'.
Edited for typo.
Ok so you are saying there is no distinction between law and good? Are you kidding? So robin hood wasnt doing good when stealing from Prince John and giving it to starving children?
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Ok so you are saying there is no distinction between law and good? Are you kidding? So robin hood wasnt doing good when stealing from Prince John and giving it to starving children?
I'm saying good means different things to different people. 'Do good in all that you do' can mean 'break the law when necessary' to some, and 'work to change the law' to others.
No, it says 'do good in all ways you can'. Breaking a law is not doing good, so is not 'a way you can do good'.
You're better than this, TOZ. There's a reason the law and good axes are separated. Being Chaotic (breaking laws and disrespecting authority) does not prevent one from being Good, and being Lawful (adhering rigidly to laws and authority) does not make one Good. Laws are not inherently good or evil, so breaking laws is also not inherently good or evil. You cannot categorically say, "breaking laws is not doing good". There's too much unknown.
Let's give an example. The laws of your character's religion absolutely forbid being outside once the sun sets, and forbids allowing visitors into the house at night. Your character is inside his house in the late evening and hears what sounds like a small child crying for help outside (he's being attacked by a dretch or other wimpy demon). A rigidly Lawful Good character would not step outside to help the child, nor would he allow the child inside; he might shout advice or attempt to scare off the attacker. A Neutral Good character would open his window to see if the child really needs his help, and would break his religion's law if needed to save the child. A Chaotic Good character would head outside immediately, religious dogma be damned.
In this example, we see that breaking a law can be a Good thing to do.
I'm saying good means different things to different people. 'Do good in all that you do' can mean 'break the law when necessary' to some, and 'work to change the law' to others.Ok so you are saying there is no distinction between law and good? Are you kidding? So robin hood wasnt doing good when stealing from Prince John and giving it to starving children?
So you are a paladin in cheliax, and doing all the good you can involves not trying to protect the innocent little child who's crime is openly denouncing asmodeus in a nursery rhyme, but instead seeking redress in the court system while the child awaits execution? That is what "Do all the good you can, By all the means you can, In all the ways you can, In all the places you can, At all the times you can, To all the people you can, As long as ever you can." means to you? Seriously?
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I have a good example too. Comes from the Real Life to boot.
You are a customs officer. Your intrepid team intercepts a smuggler ring and stumbles upon a crate full of warm clothes in kids sizes.
Now, there's a law that says that every item smuggled intercepted by customs officers must be disposed of by means of destroying it. No other option. No sale, no donation, no lease possible. Obliterate by eliminating.
You happen to know that there as an orphanage near which is asking for clothes, as the winter is heavy and kids are in dire need.
What do you do ?
Reject the example as completely designed to support your argument.
Yes, that's sort of the point of examples when discussing things. Are you feeling OK, TOZ?
So you are a paladin in cheliax, and doing all the good you can involves not trying to protect the innocent little child who's crime is openly denouncing asmodeus in a nursery rhyme, but instead seeking redress in the court system while the child awaits execution? That is what "Do all the good you can, By all the means you can, In all the ways you can, In all the places you can, At all the times you can, To all the people you can, As long as ever you can." means to you? Seriously?
You are a customs officer. Your intrepid team intercepts a smuggler ring and stumbles upon a crate full of warm clothes in kids sizes.Now, there's a law that says that every item smuggled intercepted by customs officers must be disposed of by means of destroying it. No other option. No sale, no donation, no lease possible. Obliterate by eliminating.
You happen to know that there as an orphanage near which is asking for clothes, as the winter is heavy and kids are in dire need.
What do you do ?
At the risk of stepping on Lilith's toes a bit:
These are exactly the types of situations that make playing a paladin (or any lawful good character) fun, challenging, and rewarding. For me, the whole point of roleplaying that type of character is having to agonize over these types decisions. Which way the character chooses influences who she is.
If she chooses to destroy the clothes, she may work tirelessly to make enough money to clothe those children herself. If she chooses not to, she may work within the system as a rogue to change the policies.
Great opportunity for RP. =)
Paladins are tricky characters to play, I think, because at some level it requires a social contract between the GM and player, an agreed understanding of what it means to be a paladin in that GM's campaign.
Setting aside the Unearthed Arcana/SRD paladin variants, paladins are lawful good, but to which side, lawful or good, each paladin sways I think is part of the appeal and the fun of roleplaying the class. The law vs. good axis I think is where many have a stumbling block. Is it okay for a paladin to take goods meant for destruction (as in Gorbacz's example above) as per the law and instead donate it to the needy (a good act)?
I can't answer that for everybody (nor would I want to). I can only answer how I would rule it in my campaign.
Alignment issues have been discussed to death many times over ever since they first poked their heads up in the roleplaying world. However, this statement in its various forms through various systems bears repeating:
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity — it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character.
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...In any event, paladins receive their powers not from a deity, but from their own convictions in their code. They often WORSHIP a deity simply because many deities have paladin orders that specifically serve them, but unlike clerics, paladins do not actually receive their powers directly from their deity...Does this mean that a paladin of Aroden could still conceivably exist, complete with spells and powers? Or even a whole order of Paladins who didn't, for whatever reason, shift over to Iomedae?
It does indeed. Althoguh such a paladin would be relatively strange and eccentric and regarded as something of a loon, I suspect. A lovable loon, but a loon nevertheless.
It does indeed. Althoguh such a paladin would be relatively strange and eccentric and regarded as something of a loon, I suspect. A lovable loon, but a loon nevertheless....In any event, paladins receive their powers not from a deity, but from their own convictions in their code. They often WORSHIP a deity simply because many deities have paladin orders that specifically serve them, but unlike clerics, paladins do not actually receive their powers directly from their deity...Does this mean that a paladin of Aroden could still conceivably exist, complete with spells and powers? Or even a whole order of Paladins who didn't, for whatever reason, shift over to Iomedae?
Right, and that agrees with (somewhat) my view on a paladin of Shelyn. They espouse beauty. and love, and all that 'lovey-dovey' stuff. But they add a dose of 'evil is ugly and should be smitten' as a side order.
When my paladin 'goes off on one', he starts denouncing tyranny and oppression, and longs for the time when he can bring the beauty of goodness and law to the world. Of course, he means to achieve this by the slaughter of all the wicked in the world, and making everyone equal to share in the goodness of law incorruptible.
That's when his fellow worshipers of Shelyn roll their eyes and shrug "That's just so Jeyger!"
And return to writing poetry and singing ballads.
It's a bit awkward, but it works for me...
PS: Do paladins that do not worship a god still get the powers that refer directly to worshipping a god? The Divine Bond and Holy Champion powers specifically? Thought I'd ask as JJ is watching this thread, and I think I know the answer anyway :-)
I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of back-tracking and recanting previously printed stuff. Sometimes it makes it seem like there's no central guiding principle and that people are just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks. That shows a lack of editorial leadership, I think; there's a reason that "written by committee" isn't usually regarded as a compliment. :-)For instance, Paizo is reprinting the Campaign Setting and reworking the old feats (like Hamatulatsu) and countries (like Arkenstar). Why was that material suitable the first time it was published, but not now? And if it was not suitable, why was it published in the first place?
I thought that was more a matter of it being printed using 3.5 rules and also expanding the fluff, but I could be wrong.
Similarly, right on the heels of the Adventurer's Armory comes the Advanced Player's Guide, reprinting and changing material that's only a few months old.Generally I think the quality of material Paizo puts out is quite good, but I have to wince every time I see comments like: "That thing was a mistake, so we're...
That's fair. For me in this case I hadn't had time to fully assimilate the info from the AA so I don't mind, but I can see how people who are quicker on the uptake then me could be irritated.
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It does indeed. Althoguh such a paladin would be relatively strange and eccentric and regarded as something of a loon, I suspect. A lovable loon, but a loon nevertheless....In any event, paladins receive their powers not from a deity, but from their own convictions in their code. They often WORSHIP a deity simply because many deities have paladin orders that specifically serve them, but unlike clerics, paladins do not actually receive their powers directly from their deity...Does this mean that a paladin of Aroden could still conceivably exist, complete with spells and powers? Or even a whole order of Paladins who didn't, for whatever reason, shift over to Iomedae?
My God!
I shall roleplay a man. Come, enter into my imagination and see him! His name... Alonso Quijana... a country fighter, no longer young... bony, hollow-faced... eyes that burn with the fire of inner vision. Being retired, he has much time for books. He studies them from morn to night and often through the night as well. And all he reads oppresses him... fills him with indignation at man's murderous ways toward man. And he conceives the strangest project ever imagined... to become a paladin and sally forth into the world to right all wrongs. No longer shall he be plain Alonso Quijana... but a dauntless knight known as Don Quixote de Aroden!
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Another thing to keep in mind was that it's very likely that WOTC invented the idea of godless clerics to pacify the "D+D leads to PAGAN AND SATAN WORSHIP!" crowd, probably also for the same reason that the D+D cartoon party did not have a cleric; perhaps not realising that such crowds can't be reasoned with.
WOTC didn't invent the idea of godless clerics. TSR did (at least for the D&D game). The Complete Priest's Handbook introduced philosophies, and non-sentient "forces" as potential sources of divine power. So you could be a priest of, for example:
1.) A death god
2.) Death itself
3.) The concept of death
WOTC just carried on the tradition.
Another thing to keep in mind was that it's very likely that WOTC invented the idea of godless clerics to pacify the "D+D leads to PAGAN AND SATAN WORSHIP!" crowd, probably also for the same reason that the D+D cartoon party did not have a cleric; perhaps not realising that such crowds can't be reasoned with.WOTC didn't invent the idea of godless clerics. TSR did (at least for the D&D game). The Complete Priest's Handbook introduced philosophies, and non-sentient "forces" as potential sources of divine power. So you could be a priest of, for example:
1.) A death god
2.) Death itself
3.) The concept of deathWOTC just carried on the tradition.
Yup, and then they continued to run with it in the Planescape line, not to mention that they also introduced the "Planar Churches" in Spelljammer ("are you LE? Then you can join the Church of Hell, or Acheron, or maybe Gehenna . . . no specific deity needed!")
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Yup, and then they continued to run with it in the Planescape line, not to mention that they also introduced the "Planar Churches" in Spelljammer ("are you LE? Then you can join the Church of Hell, or Acheron, or maybe Gehenna . . . no specific deity needed!")
Planescape was great. My friends and I got a lot of mileage out of those sourcebooks. Still do! Same for the Complete Handbooks. Lots of good material there that works regardless of edition.