I am inclined to think that while this seems like a good idea (cleverly thinking outside the box, as it were), it's probably overpowered for a 6th level spell.
If this is allowed, you can do 8d8 + 88 HP (average 124) at 11th level. It could also hit up to 4 targets for a total of 496 damage (on average).
By comparison, your 11th level wizard buddy is casting Chain Lightning which averages only 39 HP. Sure, it can hit up to 12 targets for a total of 468 HP (on average), but the downside is that 39 HP to your typical CR 8 monster won't kill it, but 124 HP to a typical CR 9 monster can often kill them. 4 dead enemies is far preferable to 12 wounded ones.
Or that 11th level wizard could try Disintegrate. One enemy takes 22d6 damage for an average of 77 HP, or only 5d6 if he saves (18 HP). Not even close to the damage of your berry bag.
It's prably a little overpowered.
However, I can think of no reason by RAW that you cannot do this, so maybe you've just found a great way to make a big nasty bomb.
But if I were the DM, I would say this shouldn't work. Maybe so many berries together kinda cancel each other out. The damage I would have you roll would be 8d8 + 1/caster level (average 47 HP damage). Still more than the Chain Lightning average but with far fewer targets.
Nice idea but you can't activate items not in your possession unless the descriptor says otherwise. Once the item isn't in your possession its outside your control. For your idea to work use delayed blast fireballs instead of holly-berries and you're good to go.
Nice idea but you can't activate items not in your possession unless the descriptor says otherwise.
the holly berries are command word activated up to a range of 200 feet.
you could say that it takes a standad action to throw the bag (mind the -4 on attack rolls for nonproficiency of bags) and another standard action to command word activate the berries. the spell description is a little unclear on how it works.
But holly berry fire seeds are a kickass spell anyway. you could give them to your party rogue to slide them into enemy pockets, place them under their beds or even mix them into their breakfast cereals. munch munch boom O_O
you could glue them onto a stone to ensure LoE (yes, creativity is a b$#!@).
but the holly berry super bomb's weakness compared to spells like chain lightning is the time to pull this off:
1) cast spell -> standard action
2) build bomb -> at least another standard action or even several rounds
3) throw bomb -> standard action, miss chance
4) detonate bomb -> standard action perhaps (trigger item), time for enemies to duck and cover
very effective if everything works fine, completely worthless if not enough time or you miss with the bomb. or even worse: NO BERRIES AT HAND! :D
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I'm seeking additional clarification on this question.
Should the damage read instead like this:
8 individual instances of 1d8+Caster lvl damage.
This is important because a creature with resist 5 fire should/could/might have a partial reduction of damage from each berry.
How would the denizens of this fine forum rule this?
And would you allow one saving throw for each berry? Or one for the spell? In theory, an ambushing druid could spread out the berries over an area to catch several foes at once.
-Pain
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I'm seeking additional clarification on this question.
Should the damage read instead like this:
8 individual instances of 1d8+Caster lvl damage.
This is important because a creature with resist 5 fire should/could/might have a partial reduction of damage from each berry.
How would the denizens of this fine forum rule this?
And would you allow one saving throw for each berry? Or one for the spell? In theory, an ambushing druid could spread out the berries over an area to catch several foes at once.
-Pain
2 day waiting...bump!
-Pain
I would think that, per RAW, this is not possible. By my interpretation (as we all know, these differ).
As a player, I wouldn't try this a whole lot for fear of pissing off the DM. Being clever is great, especially when it gets cheers from people at the table, but if something that can be exploited comes out of it and the PCs take advantage, then it can strain the player/DM silent-contract-of-fairness and probably personal relationships in the long-term.
As a DM, I would rule this depending on the circumstances. If the player started talking about this awesome idea he had for dealing crap tons of damage with a single spell, then I'd shut him down. If the PCs were struggling during a particular encounter and the druid made a desperate attempt at this to save the party, then I would probably allow it if only to reward the critical thinking and creativity. And I would make some sort of flavored reason as to why it worked; maybe the druid's deity allowed the spell to function so because the conditions under which it was cast were so dire, and now it doesn't work that way because the deity isn't paying enough attention to alter it this time.
It's a thinly veiled "don't do it again" but it doesn't punish the creativity of the player in the moment. I would rule it once. Maybe a second time, if the situation called for it, in the relatively distant future. One must be careful not to allow such things to be abused. This is definitely a gray area where I am concerned.
Its all fun and games until an NPC druid does it back to you. Then its TPK city.
Things like this, are good thought exercises.. but in reality you need to be very careful. Assuming the DM doesn't just say no- it'll be because he's grinning, and just figured out his next BBEG's bag of tricks.
One shotting the boss is nothing compared to being one shotted. At the end of the day, you are the one who loses.
-S
I pulled something like this on a Worm from AoW once. Used Reach Spell to just summon the big exploding ones on the worm. Kablooey.
...Things like this, are good thought exercises.. but in reality you need to be very careful. Assuming the DM doesn't just say no- it'll be because he's grinning, and just figured out his next BBEG's bag of tricks....
This just gave me the mental image of a group of druids flying over a city using this tactic to carpet bomb them...a wonderful challenge for my kingmaker game :D
Its all fun and games until an NPC druid does it back to you. Then its TPK city.
Things like this, are good thought exercises.. but in reality you need to be very careful. Assuming the DM doesn't just say no- it'll be because he's grinning, and just figured out his next BBEG's bag of tricks.
One shotting the boss is nothing compared to being one shotted. At the end of the day, you are the one who loses.
-S
If the DM pulls the old "having the npcs use your tricks after you come up with them"...trick, there is a simple counter. When it happens immediately ask how the npc came up with that trick.
Most of the time the DM won't have a reason for this random npc to use a trick that you came up with. The response will likely be along the lines of "What? Oh, I don't know cause he thought it up." Maybe he'll get a bit antsy about it and add "You're character isn't the only one who can come up with ideas" or so.
Now you should respond with something along these lines "Oh yeah no, I'm sure the random npc druid came up with that idea as well. Ingenuity and creativity are probably a big part of her back story and character. It's just a coincidence that she came up with the same trick that we used to rape your boss with two sessions ago, yeah totally."(Lay on the attitude and sarcasm real thick like)
Here you tag team:
You: "Hey Frank, what was DM just b&+!#ing about us doing during that last fight against the [insert thing]!?
Frank: Metagaming.
You: Metagaming!
Frank: Kinda bad form really.
You: Yeah I mean if you can't follow the rules then how can you expect us to?
Frank: Honestly DM, we kind of expect better from you.
*Entire group needs to glare at the DM here*
And that should do the trick. Technically only good once but if you lay it on properly and later sigh and make mention of this event when the DM tries to use one of your tricks it should take care of it.
Warning this may or may not get you eaten by a dragon but it is a great way of not having your own tactics bite you on the bum.
I'm not entirely sure I agree that using valid tactics is the DM metagaming.
DM Metagaming:
Foiling your ambush with no skill checks just "because he can".
Finding one special item stolen from your handy haversack when there's no reasonable way someone could have gotten to it.
The bad guys targeting each person exactly and specifically with whatever their particular weakness is based on the specifics of their character build and spells known.*
*very intelligent foes with lots of planning time and use of scrys can still do this- but it still LOOKS dubious*.
The DM using a valid tactic against the PC's? How is that metagaming? You consider it metagaming because you thought of it and used it. Assuming the NPC in question has at least the same intelligence as you do (or less or more, depending on the complexity of the trick) isn't metagaming.
You, using some little rules loophole to ruin encounters and then getting mad when the DM does it to you?
Good luck.
And on another note:
Any table I've ever been at in my life- when we ask "how" someone does something, we either get asked to roll a skill check (if a skill check will figure it out) or we're told we don't know.
"How did he do that!" you don't know.
Why?
Because your PC isn't omniscient. They do not know everything.
And given the fact that you just killed the guy- if you don't have access to speak with dead (or the like) then you may never find out. The DM isn't doing his job though if he just tells you, unless its something obvious.
(i.e. "what created that light!" "the burnt out sunrod at his feet, probably").
(note- that isn't a dig against you. "I ask the DM how he did it" and he told me, is a pet peeve of mine.)
-S
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*sigh*
I was looking for some thoughts on my query:
Should the damage read instead like this:8 individual instances of 1d8+Caster lvl damage.
This is important because a creature with resist 5 fire should/could/might have a partial reduction of damage from each berry.
How would the denizens of this fine forum rule this?
(Thanks Kalath for your thoughts.)
So...damage for each individual berry less Resist X fire, or total damage (all berries) less Resist X fire?
-Pain
Each berry I would think would be saved and have resistance applied to, individually.
Each one is a separate effect- just as being hit by more than one bead from a meteor swarm requires a separate save.. (unless they changed it from 3.5.. hope they didn't lol)
-S
Each berry I would think would be saved and have resistance applied to, individually.
Each one is a separate effect- just as being hit by more than one bead from a meteor swarm requires a separate save.. (unless they changed it from 3.5.. hope they didn't lol)
-S
Was there ever any official ruling on this from Paizo or anywhere else? I am looking at doing a similar tactic with a flame oracle (lvl12) who has fire resist 20. From what I can tell, he can put the berries on his person and within 120min he can say the magic word and anything within 5 feet of him takes a ton of damage (average of 136) while he takes none (since each berry can only do max 20 dmg).
Personally I don't think this is broken, but I do agree it is well above the damage curve even for wizard spells of 6th level. It does have limitations due to limited range, small area and that it takes two standard actions (one to cast and one to say the magic word). Also, creatures with fire resistance take way less damage.
Another point of reference is fighters at that level who are doing massive damage (some averaging in the 120 range each round).
If the spell cannot be used to have stacking damage in the overlapping areas, the spell sucks. The total area is less than fireball and d8+caster level damage is pathetic for a 6th level spell. Even clerics are dealing d6 per level with "blade barrier" or "cold ice strike".