Half humans and Racial Favored Classes


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

Hilarious.

Where are the developers?


Kortz wrote:

Hilarious.

Where are the developers?

They have forsaken us.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Viletta Vadim wrote:


Why in the world would that be silly, or remotely problematic? After all, they both have human heritage. Drawing on it is entirely sensible and appropriate, and not at all unbalanced since the favored class bonus is rather minor.

The existing traits for the half races already reflect the draw they get from thier parent sources.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Propane wrote:
Where does it say that?
I quoted Mr. Bulmahn's comment upthread.

In the Paizo Blog where this part of the APG was previewed it was also stated that only humans get favored class options for every class. So that tells me right there that half-orcs and half-elves choose only from the lists created for them and not from the lists for their parent races. Unfortunately, since it does not seem to be explicitly written in the APG to say that, that there are many people that are going to rules-lawyer this to death.

Edit:

Here is the exact sentence from the first APG preview blog:

Quote:
Of all the races, only humans have an option for all 17 classes.

Now, there are 457 replies to that blog and I stopped reading them around 200 or so, so there may be an official clarification somewhere in there if someone want to read through them all again.

Liberty's Edge

This is just craziest debate. All additional favored class options are listed with the race they go with. Half-orcs have a list, half-elves have a list, humans have a list. There is nothing more to it other than people wanting to have 4 favored class options or just liking the human ones more and wanting the cake and all. It's perfectly clear that each was was given a bonus option....a single bonus option for favored class in certain classes.


LazarX wrote:
The impression is false. If that were the case the Half-Elves and Half-Orcs would not have specific lists of their own.

This does not track. Half-Elves have Racial Traits of their own, and yet are allowed to pick Human and Elven Racial Traits.

Shar Tahl wrote:
All additional favored class options are listed with the race they go with. Half-orcs have a list, half-elves have a list, humans have a list.

Exactly the same thing could be said for Racial Traits, and half-breeds are allowed access to their own Racial Traits as well as those of both parent races.


Zurai wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The impression is false. If that were the case the Half-Elves and Half-Orcs would not have specific lists of their own.

This does not track. Half-Elves have Racial Traits of their own, and yet are allowed to pick Human and Elven Racial Traits.

Shar Tahl wrote:
All additional favored class options are listed with the race they go with. Half-orcs have a list, half-elves have a list, humans have a list.
Exactly the same thing could be said for Racial Traits, and half-breeds are allowed access to their own Racial Traits as well as those of both parent races.

No they are not. Look at the Traits chapter of the APG and go to page 331 for the Race Trait section. I will also quote for those who do not have the book yet. It says this:

Quote:

Race traits are tied to specific races or ethnicities. In order

to select a race trait, your character must be of the specified
race or ethnicity.

Then in the dwarf section there is this specific sentence:

Quote:
Only dwarves may select one of these traits.

And in each race section this same sentence appears for that specific race.


Do people not bother to read the thread before they respond? This isn't even a particularly long thread, and the relevant rule has been quoted multiple times, the first time about three posts before your first post in the thread. Here it is yet again, though:

Quote:

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as

both human and that race for any effects related to race.
For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both
a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits
, feats,
how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.

"Any effects related to race" is the precise wording used for half-elves and half-orcs, and the feat then goes on to specifically list taking traits as one of the things "any effects related to race" refers to.


I don't care about that feat. This is not about what you can do if you take that feat. This discussion is whether in general a half-elf or half-orc has access to things that are normally human-only or elf-only, like the race traits and racial class options.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I don't care about that feat. This is not about what you can do if you take that feat. This discussion is whether in general a half-elf or half-orc has access to things that are normally human-only or elf-only, like the race traits and racial class options.

Please read the feat and what I've said about the feat. The feat uses the exact same wording as Elf Blood and Orc Blood. EXACT SAME. Every letter is the same. It is thus exactly the same rule. It thus has exactly the same effects. Furthermore, it's crystal clear that the intent of the Racial Heritage feat is to make a Human into a "half human" in exactly the same way that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are, which means the intent is the same as the intent of those races' racial features as well.


not sure if this has been addressed but i dont think racial class options are an effect. Pretty sure its stuff like bane weapons or wether you can take a feat or qualify for something.

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I don't care about that feat. This is not about what you can do if you take that feat. This discussion is whether in general a half-elf or half-orc has access to things that are normally human-only or elf-only, like the race traits and racial class options.
Please read the feat and what I've said about the feat. The feat uses the exact same wording as Elf Blood and Orc Blood. EXACT SAME. Every letter is the same. It is thus exactly the same rule. It thus has exactly the same effects. Furthermore, it's crystal clear that the intent of the Racial Heritage feat is to make a Human into a "half human" in exactly the same way that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are, which means the intent is the same as the intent of those races' racial features as well.

Everyone is aware of the language by now.

The language used in the feat description is imprecise and that is Paizo's fault for, 1)not being crystal clear on everything, and 2)assuming that their rule books will be read by reasonable people.

Do you really think that they meant for Half Elves to have the racial favored class options of three races and that they hid that information in imprecise wording in the Feats chapter of the book? Is this what you believe?


Kortz wrote:
Do you really think that they meant for Half Elves to have the racial favored class options of three races and that they hid that information in imprecise wording in the Feats chapter of the book? Is this what you believe?

Do you really believe that the feat which says "any effects related to race, which as an example includes racial traits" means that the racial feature which says "any effects related to race" does not include racial traits?

Because that's what I was talking about. I'm not sure where you're rambling off to, because it has pretty much nothing to do with my post.


Zurai wrote:


Please read the feat and what I've said about the feat. The feat uses the exact same wording as Elf Blood and Orc Blood. EXACT SAME. Every letter is the same. It is thus exactly the same rule. It thus has exactly the same effects. Furthermore, it's crystal clear that the intent of the Racial Heritage feat is to make a Human into a "half human" in exactly the same way that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are, which means the intent is the same as the intent of those races' racial features as well.

Nowhere in the Core Book does it say the same thing that this feat does. All the Core Book says is: "Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race," and the same for half-orcs.

I had to go and look at the original wording for this in the 3.5 Player's Handbook, and this is all it says: "Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. Half-elves, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect elves as their elf ancestors are, and they can use magic items that are only usable by elves."

Why the extra text was left out by Paizo, I do not know, but this is the type of effects people expect from elf or orc blood, not the text from that feat. So if Paizo is changing the rules so that effect means the same as what that feat says, they need to come in here and post.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
So if Paizo is changing the rules so that effect means the same as what that feat says, they need to come in here and post.

Why would they need to come in here and post? The feat explicitly says that racial traits are an effect related to race. Furthermore, I submit that this is not a change, but the way it was always intended to work, because Paizo changed no rules in the APG.


If they wanted halfbreeds to be able to pick and choose they would have said so. Pick a half elf, you get to choose from the half elf list, plain and simple, we all know it was meant that way but some poepl want what others have and will bend wording to make sure they can get a slight edge.


Zurai wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
So if Paizo is changing the rules so that effect means the same as what that feat says, they need to come in here and post.
Why would they need to come in here and post? The feat explicitly says that racial traits are an effect related to race.

Maybe because wording in an optional feat is not the same as standard and basic rules.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
So if Paizo is changing the rules so that effect means the same as what that feat says, they need to come in here and post.
Why would they need to come in here and post? The feat explicitly says that racial traits are an effect related to race.
Maybe because wording in an optional feat is not the same as standard and basic rules.

Actually, the wording is precisely the same. The "For example" text is just that, an example, not rules text. Examples do not change the rules. They let us know the intent of the rules.

MundinIronHand wrote:
If they wanted halfbreeds to be able to pick and choose they would have said so

If they wanted halfbreeds to be able to pick and choose racial traits they would have said so ... oh wait, they didn't, but they obviously did intend that.

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
Kortz wrote:
Do you really think that they meant for Half Elves to have the racial favored class options of three races and that they hid that information in imprecise wording in the Feats chapter of the book? Is this what you believe?

Do you really believe that the feat which says "any effects related to race, which as an example includes racial traits" means that the racial feature which says "any effects related to race" does not include racial traits?

Because that's what I was talking about. I'm not sure where you're rambling off to, because it has pretty much nothing to do with my post.

I thought this was about whether or not a Half Elf Sorcerer could take the Human favored class option.

If we're not talking about favored class options but racial traits, then you do have more of an argument even though I think that was not the intent.

I'll probably just wait for one of the developers to return to chime in before I add (or subtract) anything else to the discussion.

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
So if Paizo is changing the rules so that effect means the same as what that feat says, they need to come in here and post.
Why would they need to come in here and post? The feat explicitly says that racial traits are an effect related to race. Furthermore, I submit that this is not a change, but the way it was always intended to work, because Paizo changed no rules in the APG.

Yeah, I think it means "Character traits that require a race". As-in the stuff in chapter 8 (APG), not the stuff in chapter 1 (APG).


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
So if Paizo is changing the rules so that effect means the same as what that feat says, they need to come in here and post.
Why would they need to come in here and post? The feat explicitly says that racial traits are an effect related to race. Furthermore, I submit that this is not a change, but the way it was always intended to work, because Paizo changed no rules in the APG.
Yeah, I think it means "Character traits that require a race". As-in the stuff in chapter 8 (APG), not the stuff in chapter 1 (APG).

Which is all I've been saying. I've pretty much stayed out of the favored class debate because I don't care which way the cookie crumbles on that. I keep running into people saying stuff like, "Well, half-elves can't take elf racial traits, so..." or, "The favored class options are listed by race and include half-races, so obviously... [despite the fact that racial traits are also listed by race and include half-races]". That's what I've been arguing about. I can see both RAI and RAW justifications for both sides of the favored class debate, but racial traits are absolutely crystal clear IMO that they're allowed for half-races both RAI and RAW.


Like I said before, or maybe I didn't (too many posts now), I did not see anywhere in the Core Pathfinder RPG Book an explanation of what "effect" means in this sentence: Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race. So show me a quote from the Core Book, or an official clarification post on these forums, of what "effect" means in this sentence and you win.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Like I said before, or maybe I didn't (too many posts now), I did not see anywhere in the Core Pathfinder RPG Book an explanation of what "effect" means in this sentence: Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race. So show me a quote from the Core Book, or an official clarification post on these forums, of what "effect" means in this sentence and you win.

So in other words, what you're saying is that "Any effect related to race" does not mean "taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on" because that's not in the Core Rulebook or on the forums?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Interesting question, can't believe I missed this topic until now. I think what I will allow is a half orc or half elf may take the human favored class bonus for their class if they choose ONLY if there is no half elf or half orc choice - in other words, their half orc or half elf specific bonus supercedes the basic human one.

if those favored class bonuses were Elven or Orc, and there were no half orc or half elf specific bonuses, I would allow them to pick from either.

I am interested on an official ruling as well.


Zurai wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Like I said before, or maybe I didn't (too many posts now), I did not see anywhere in the Core Pathfinder RPG Book an explanation of what "effect" means in this sentence: Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race. So show me a quote from the Core Book, or an official clarification post on these forums, of what "effect" means in this sentence and you win.
So in other words, what you're saying is that "Any effect related to race" does not mean "taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on" because that's not in the Core Rulebook or on the forums?

Right. Pathfinder is a continuation of 3rd Ed, so if they did not include a definition of "effect" to make it something different than what it was in 3rd, the definition from 3rd is correct. If there is something in 3rd that says more than what I quoted earlier about spells and magic items, I would consider that legal as well. Anything else would just be a house rule without a developer's official word on it.

Liberty's Edge

Jess Door wrote:

Interesting question, can't believe I missed this topic until now. I think what I will allow is a half orc or half elf may take the human favored class bonus for their class if they choose ONLY if there is no half elf or half orc choice - in other words, their half orc or half elf specific bonus supercedes the basic human one.

if those favored class bonuses were Elven or Orc, and there were no half orc or half elf specific bonuses, I would allow them to pick from either.

I am interested on an official ruling as well.

In my home games I'm ignoring the racial restrictions on favored class bonuses and changing the "spells known" ones to "1/3 of a spell known," so the argument about favored class bonuses is kind-of moot for me.


Jess Door wrote:

Interesting question, can't believe I missed this topic until now. I think what I will allow is a half orc or half elf may take the human favored class bonus for their class if they choose ONLY if there is no half elf or half orc choice - in other words, their half orc or half elf specific bonus supercedes the basic human one.

if those favored class bonuses were Elven or Orc, and there were no half orc or half elf specific bonuses, I would allow them to pick from either.

I am interested on an official ruling as well.

/sign

after all the "you are wrong" "no, you are..." this is an intressting post/idea/approach to this topic.


Tryn wrote:
Jess Door wrote:

Interesting question, can't believe I missed this topic until now. I think what I will allow is a half orc or half elf may take the human favored class bonus for their class if they choose ONLY if there is no half elf or half orc choice - in other words, their half orc or half elf specific bonus supercedes the basic human one.

if those favored class bonuses were Elven or Orc, and there were no half orc or half elf specific bonuses, I would allow them to pick from either.

I am interested on an official ruling as well.

/sign

after all the "you are wrong" "no, you are..." this is an intressting post/idea/approach to this topic.

You're wrong.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zurai wrote:

Do people not bother to read the thread before they respond? This isn't even a particularly long thread, and the relevant rule has been quoted multiple times, the first time about three posts before your first post in the thread. Here it is yet again, though:

Quote:

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as

both human and that race for any effects related to race.
For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both
a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits
, feats,
how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
"Any effects related to race" is the precise wording used for half-elves and half-orcs, and the feat then goes on to specifically list taking traits as one of the things "any effects related to race" refers to.

Character generation is NOT AN EFFECT. The rule says effect.. nothing to do with character construction which applies to character generation and leveling. If being Half-Human were going to allow you to pick the features of both the half-species, the human half, and the non human half it would say so in the appropriate areas. It doesn't.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey there folks,

Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.

Sorry charlie... :-)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.

Sorry charlie... :-)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Cool. Thank you for the reply.

While you're poking around, care to clarify whether Half-Elves and Half-Orcs can take Race Traits (from Chapter 8, not Chapter 1; example, "Scholar of Ruins") for Humans and Elves or Orcs, respectively, as the feat Racial Heritage implies they can? And, if not, why not?

A clarification of just what "an effect" is would be nice, too.

PS. I FAQ'd Jason's post. I suggest others do, too.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.

Sorry charlie... :-)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks for replying; I am glad common sense has won the day on the FCB issue.

Like Zurai, however, I would be interested in seeing a concrete definition of the "effects" in the FAQ, just to ward off the shenanigans once and for all.

Thanks!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am with you two. I just want an official ruling for the rest as well. It is a lot easier to decide if you need to house rule something or not when that something is clear rather than vague and confusing. Of course, this was easier to deal with before Paizo introduced the Traits system and Race Traits. hehe


Alright folks, I did some digging through the forums here and found a post from just back in April by James addressing the Bastard campaign trait in the Kingmaker Player's Guide:

James Jacobs wrote:


Bastard is a campaign trait, not a race trait. You don't need to take Adopted to take the Kingmaker's Bastard campaign trait, and more to the point, Adopted won't LET you take that trait since it's not a race trait.

And now that I've thought it over... the fact that half-elves have the elf blood racial trait, which means they're counted as both elves AND humans for any effect related to race, more or less means that they DO qualify for the Bastard trait. Because they count as humans, and thus fill the prerequisite for the Bastard trait. Same goes for half-orcs.

yay! no errata or houseruling needed!

So at least James says that Race traits are included in the definition of "effect" in the Elf Blood and Orc Blood descriptions. So unless Jason or someone else comes back in here and says differently, we have something official from James.

Now the only thing I would like is if one of them would post here saying the wording from that feat is the correct wording for Elf Blood, Orc Blood and any other future half-blood race that may come along.

The Exchange

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Alright folks, I did some digging through the forums here and found a post from just back in April by James addressing the Bastard campaign trait in the Kingmaker Player's Guide:

James Jacobs wrote:


Bastard is a campaign trait, not a race trait. You don't need to take Adopted to take the Kingmaker's Bastard campaign trait, and more to the point, Adopted won't LET you take that trait since it's not a race trait.

And now that I've thought it over... the fact that half-elves have the elf blood racial trait, which means they're counted as both elves AND humans for any effect related to race, more or less means that they DO qualify for the Bastard trait. Because they count as humans, and thus fill the prerequisite for the Bastard trait. Same goes for half-orcs.

yay! no errata or houseruling needed!

So at least James says that Race traits are included in the definition of "effect" in the Elf Blood and Orc Blood descriptions. So unless Jason or someone else comes back in here and says differently, we have something official from James.

Now the only thing I would like is if one of them would post here saying the wording from that feat is the correct wording for Elf Blood, Orc Blood and any other future half-blood race that may come along.

I don't know that I have a problem with traits being included in this. (As is the racial trait sub-section of Traits, NOT Racial Traits, that's just nonsense.)

But as far as the OP of this thread, We have an answer from Jason.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.

Sorry charlie... :-)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


I know this is an old thread, but I came looking for it because I use Hero Lab. And they apparently think that a half elf can choose an extra spell known each level as a Favoured Class Racial Bonus. It appears to be in error, if I've read this thread correctly.


Monster Ronster wrote:
I know this is an old thread, but I came looking for it because I use Hero Lab. And they apparently think that a half elf can choose an extra spell known each level as a Favoured Class Racial Bonus. It appears to be in error, if I've read this thread correctly.

No it's right.

FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.


Dread Knight wrote:
Monster Ronster wrote:
I know this is an old thread, but I came looking for it because I use Hero Lab. And they apparently think that a half elf can choose an extra spell known each level as a Favoured Class Racial Bonus. It appears to be in error, if I've read this thread correctly.

No it's right.

FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

Buuuuut:

Hey there folks,

Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.

Sorry charlie... :-)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

From the mouth of a designer.


Monster Ronster wrote:
Dread Knight wrote:
Monster Ronster wrote:
I know this is an old thread, but I came looking for it because I use Hero Lab. And they apparently think that a half elf can choose an extra spell known each level as a Favoured Class Racial Bonus. It appears to be in error, if I've read this thread correctly.

No it's right.

FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

Buuuuut:

Hey there folks,

Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.

Sorry charlie... :-)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

From the mouth of a designer.

That was a post before it was changed in the FAQ.


Monster Ronster, look at the bottom of the FAQ entry. The edit date is 9/26/13. This thread was 2010. The FAQ is a reversal of this thread's ruling.

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