I just browsed through my copy, and I'm not as excited about it as I was about the other Kingmaker adventures.
A bandit king and wannabe sophisticate ruling a squalid little boondocks kingdom somehow doesn't seem a fitting opponent for 12th-level PCs.
I don't question the game challenge Irovetti will present, but the concept seems way less epic than rampaging superowlbear, or cyclops lich.
What with the names and Irovetti's obsession with art, he brings to mind some deranged Renaissance Italian tyrant, but the adventure path so far had an atmosphere of rugged frontiersmanship, so Irovetti comes across feeling like a provincial wannabe, rather than than a murderous weaver of intrigue.
My perception might have something to do with the fact that the last Paizo adventure path we played was Age of Worms, whose feast in The Prince of Redhand, with it's Vertiginous Terrace, Handsome Slaughter of Curious Avians, &c. makes Irovetti's joust where his strongman will try to murder you with brute force seem really provincial.
Now, provincial is OK, and a better fit for Kingmaker than the opulence of The Prince of Redhand, but in that context, Irovetti would make more sense as some sort of manly barbarian warlord than the art-obsessed bard and thief that he is.
Help me put things into perspective, and make Irovetti seem like the badass opponent he should be!
In more practical terms, I'm worried that when my PCs learn about Pitax's attack on their kingdom after the tournament, they will attack Irovetti then and there, rather than rushing back to engage in war. After all, some of his commanders forces will be out in the field, so his defenses might actually be weaker than by the end of the adventure.
Luring enemy leaders to willingly make themselves your guest-hostages is an eminently reasonable tactic in the real world, but less so in the world of 12th-level D&D, where it means you have just placed a group of demigodlike murderers in the heart of your domain and perilously close to yourself.
How do I encourage my PCs to engage Pitax in war rather than just taking a shortcut over Irovetti's dead body?
I just browsed through my copy, and I'm not as excited about it as I was about the other Kingmaker adventures.
A bandit king and wannabe sophisticate ruling a squalid little boondocks kingdom somehow doesn't seem a fitting opponent for 12th-level PCs.
I don't question the game challenge Irovetti will present, but the concept seems way less epic than rampaging superowlbear, or cyclops lich.
What with the names and Irovetti's obsession with art, he brings to mind some deranged Renaissance Italian tyrant, but the adventure path so far had an atmosphere of rugged frontiersmanship, so Irovetti comes across feeling like a provincial wannabe, rather than than a murderous weaver of intrigue.
My perception might have something to do with the fact that the last Paizo adventure path we played was Age of Worms, whose feast in The Prince of Redhand, with it's Vertiginous Terrace, Handsome Slaughter of Curious Avians, &c. makes Irovetti's joust where his strongman will try to murder you with brute force seem really provincial.
Now, provincial is OK, and a better fit for Kingmaker than the opulence of The Prince of Redhand, but in that context, Irovetti would make more sense as some sort of manly barbarian warlord than the art-obsessed bard and thief that he is.
Help me put things into perspective, and make Irovetti seem like the badass opponent he should be!
In more practical terms, I'm worried that when my PCs learn about Pitax's attack on their kingdom after the tournament, they will attack Irovetti then and there, rather than rushing back to engage in war. After all, some of his commanders forces will be out in the field, so his defenses might actually be weaker than by the end of the adventure.
Luring enemy leaders to willingly make themselves your guest-hostages is an eminently reasonable tactic in the real world, but less so in the world of 12th-level D&D, where it means you have just placed a group of demigodlike murderers in the heart of your domain and perilously close to yourself.
How do I...
I never thought about that, good point, but I did remake him into a battle sorcerer(3.5 variant class). I also starting statting the ogre mage up as an anti-paladin instead of a bard. If the PC's attack him in public he should be able to teleport away. I would have his strongest NPC's teleport with him. They know the PC's are powerful so now the PC's have to take on all those guys at once. If the PC's try to be sneaky about the way they do things things will be easier.
PS: I would not have them hear about the attack until they are on the way home from the tournament, unless they anger Irovetti with an insult, and then they learn about it after the final ceremony of the game.
I never thought about that, good point, but I did remake him into a battle sorcerer(3.5 variant class). I also starting statting the ogre mage up as an anti-paladin instead of a bard. If the PC's attack him in public he should be able to teleport away. I would have his strongest NPC's teleport with him. They know the PC's are powerful so now the PC's have to take on all those guys at once.
Sure, but that still means you're cutting out the whole war, with the PCs right in front of the palace in which Irovetti is holed up, getting ready for assault.
It'd be a shame to lose half an adventure like that, especially since it's the part that showcases the new mass combat minigame.
PS: I would not have them hear about the attack until they are on the way home from the tournament, unless they anger Irovetti with an insult, and then they learn about it after the final ceremony of the game.
I guess that makes sense... if Irovetti's smart, he'll realize that on the road is the most inconvenient place for the PCs to be when the attack comes: they can't immediately defend their holdings, and they can't immediately bring the war to a quick end by turning on him.
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Hmmm.
On the background of previous PF APs, War of the River Kings *is* pretty epic. You get to knock out a kingdom and deliver a coup de etat. By this point in previous APs you were usually running around some dungeon in search of McGuffin or missing storyline bits.
AoW is not the best comprasion, since it was a 12-part, 20-level AP with godslaying and dracoliches, not exactly the power level of Golarion. You don't play so high stakes in Pathfinder APs.
This has been a worry of mine as well. My players basically circumvented half of part 4 by scry & fry tactics to take out Baron Drevel in his own bed. After this, I talked to my players and agreed that teleport should have the same nerf, since I could just as easy destroy them all in their beds with the collective host of the next big bad and his lieutenants employing the same tactics.
I have added some home-made NPCs who are interested in seeing the war come to fruition, and will step in to meddle if they try to bisect part 5 completely. For the most part, it is just enough to even the scales, but there are enemies even more powerful, associated with the big bad in part 6, and some I even plan to use as a catalyst for something I have planned for my homemade "part 7", based on how they fare in part 6.
Sure, it may be putting railroads in the sandbox, but I feel that it is justified if they basically make me have spent 20 bucks for a module I hardly get to use >_>
On the background of previous PF APs, War of the River Kings *is* pretty epic. You get to knock out a kingdom and deliver a coup de etat.
That's pretty awesome, yes. My main worry is the character of Irovetti himself. He's a king and a 16th-level character, but as those go, he's something of a loser. Thief, runaway, swindler, fine arts patron in a backwater kingdom of bandits and frontiersmen... somehow he doesn't seem like a step up for a party who has already defeated a fey enchantress, a troll king, a rampaging kaiju, an ancient lich...
AoW is not the best comprasion, since it was a 12-part, 20-level AP with godslaying and dracoliches, not exactly the power level of Golarion. You don't play so high stakes in Pathfinder APs.
It might not be a fair comparison, but it will certainly come up in my game, and only serve to strengthen the impression of Irovetti as a wannabe. "Heh, some grand tournament... he should see the parties the Prince of Redhand throws!"
My players basically circumvented half of part 4 by scry & fry tactics to take out Baron Drevel in his own bed. After this, I talked to my players and agreed that teleport should have the same nerf, since I could just as easy destroy them all in their beds with the collective host of the next big bad and his lieutenants employing the same tactics.
Sorry, it's unclear: how did you nerf teleport?
For what it's worth, I'm more worried about the first part of my post (how to present Irovetti as cool) than the second (how to make sure there's a war, rather than just a surgical strike against Irovetti).
The second I hope to be able to take care of by a few subtle hits along the lines of "Screw Irovetti, we must defend our country!", "His armies are already in the field, by the time they get word of his fall, half of Ulfland will be in ruins, we'll deal with him once his armies are broken!", reinforced by the inevitable desire of the players to try out the shiny new mass combat rules.
I never thought about that, good point, but I did remake him into a battle sorcerer(3.5 variant class). I also starting statting the ogre mage up as an anti-paladin instead of a bard. If the PC's attack him in public he should be able to teleport away. I would have his strongest NPC's teleport with him. They know the PC's are powerful so now the PC's have to take on all those guys at once.Sure, but that still means you're cutting out the whole war, with the PCs right in front of the palace in which Irovetti is holed up, getting ready for assault.
It'd be a shame to lose half an adventure like that, especially since it's the part that showcases the new mass combat minigame.
PS: I would not have them hear about the attack until they are on the way home from the tournament, unless they anger Irovetti with an insult, and then they learn about it after the final ceremony of the game.I guess that makes sense... if Irovetti's smart, he'll realize that on the road is the most inconvenient place for the PCs to be when the attack comes: they can't immediately defend their holdings, and they can't immediately bring the war to a quick end by turning on him.
True, but this is the only AP where the PC's really get to decide where things go and when. I have no idea when my group will have this much control over an adventure, since I dont have time to write my own. If they try to take on Irovetti and all his friends directly I honestly expect them to lose, but I warned them about rash decisions before the game started. If they kill Ivoretti and his crew is still alive one of them will step up and bring the war to the PC, painting the killing as a politicial assassination most likely assuming they stay alive long enough to do so anyway.
This has been a worry of mine as well. My players basically circumvented half of part 4 by scry & fry tactics to take out Baron Drevel in his own bed. After this, I talked to my players and agreed that teleport should have the same nerf, since I could just as easy destroy them all in their beds with the collective host of the next big bad and his lieutenants employing the same tactics.
I have added some home-made NPCs who are interested in seeing the war come to fruition, and will step in to meddle if they try to bisect part 5 completely. For the most part, it is just enough to even the scales, but there are enemies even more powerful, associated with the big bad in part 6, and some I even plan to use as a catalyst for something I have planned for my homemade "part 7", based on how they fare in part 6.
Sure, it may be putting railroads in the sandbox, but I feel that it is justified if they basically make me have spent 20 bucks for a module I hardly get to use >_>
I have not seen that(scry and fry) in so long I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder. I will most likely give Drevel a guardian that never sleeps. It wont really challenge the players, but it will give Drevel a chance to wake up and teleport away. Placing an alarm spell in his room is also a good idea.
My players basically circumvented half of part 4 by scry & fry tactics to take out Baron Drevel in his own bed. After this, I talked to my players and agreed that teleport should have the same nerf, since I could just as easy destroy them all in their beds with the collective host of the next big bad and his lieutenants employing the same tactics.Sorry, it's unclear: how did you nerf teleport?
For what it's worth, I'm more worried about the first part of my post (how to present Irovetti as cool) than the second (how to make sure there's a war, rather than just a surgical strike against Irovetti).
The second I hope to be able to take care of by a few subtle hits along the lines of "Screw Irovetti, we must defend our country!", "His armies are already in the field, by the time they get word of his fall, half of Ulfland will be in ruins, we'll deal with him once his armies are broken!", reinforced by the inevitable desire of the players to try out the shiny new mass combat rules.
In my game Irovetti was one of the four groups sent out to gain control of the stolen lands. He has accomplished feats similar to the PC's. It is hard not to respect someone who has done the same things, or more, that you have done.
In my game Irovetti was one of the four groups sent out to gain control of the stolen lands. He has accomplished feats similar to the PC's. It is hard not to respect someone who has done the same things, or more, that you have done.
That's an interesting solution. So did Pitax as written exist before Irovetti arrived, and he annexed it, or did his group found it ( thus deleting the "long proud history" of the place)?
As to learning of the attack, the official "dirty tricks" method is to have word reach them of the attack...but not necessarily of the attackers. Iroveti can then stall them as he "prepares to send aid," keeping them from going home until with a group of his on soldiers, who attack the PCs when close enough to home, or very cheerfully send them on their way. A warning though, if you do the latter: be sure that there are no sharp, easily thrown objects on the player's side of the table.
My main worry is the character of Irovetti himself. He's a king and a 16th-level character, but as those go, he's something of a loser. Thief, runaway, swindler, fine arts patron in a backwater kingdom of bandits and frontiersmen... somehow he doesn't seem like a step up for a party who has already defeated a fey enchantress, a troll king, a rampaging kaiju, an ancient lich...
But despite those accomplishments, they are pretty well rulers of "a backwater kingdom of bandits and frontiersmen" too.
You're also taking somewhat of the glass half-empty approach. Yeah, he's kind of a nobody and a loser, but nobody actually knows that. Besides, how many losers become king anyway? Getting a job is an accomplishment for a loser, and he's done far, far better than that...and would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for you meddling adventurers. The point of the character is discovering that the emperor has no clothes, (and to realize just how far the players themselves have come that they can war with another nation).
I mean, the bad taste in art is pretty well perfectly emblematic. He's supposed to come off as some great patron of culture in a large and impressive city, making operas where the PCs are still worrying over where the windmill goes. In truth, though, it's hollow, but that first impression should be something else, something like seeing the well drilled armies of the third world dictator, only to realize that none can actually fight.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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As to learning of the attack, the official "dirty tricks" method is to have word reach them of the attack...but not necessarily of the attackers. Iroveti can then stall them as he "prepares to send aid," keeping them from going home until with a group of his on soldiers, who attack the PCs when close enough to home, or very cheerfully send them on their way. A warning though, if you do the latter: be sure that there are no sharp, easily thrown objects on the player's side of the table.
My main worry is the character of Irovetti himself. He's a king and a 16th-level character, but as those go, he's something of a loser. Thief, runaway, swindler, fine arts patron in a backwater kingdom of bandits and frontiersmen... somehow he doesn't seem like a step up for a party who has already defeated a fey enchantress, a troll king, a rampaging kaiju, an ancient lich...But despite those accomplishments, they are pretty well rulers of "a backwater kingdom of bandits and frontiersmen" too.
You're also taking somewhat of the glass half-empty approach. Yeah, he's kind of a nobody and a loser, but nobody actually knows that. Besides, how many losers become king anyway? Getting a job is an accomplishment for a loser, and he's done far, far better than that...and would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for you meddling adventurers. The point of the character is discovering that the emperor has no clothes, (and to realize just how far the players themselves have come that they can war with another nation).
I mean, the bad taste in art is pretty well perfectly emblematic. He's supposed to come off as some great patron of culture in a large and impressive city, making operas where the PCs are still worrying over where the windmill goes. In truth, though, it's hollow, but that first impression should be something else, something like seeing the well drilled armies of the third world dictator, only to realize that none can actually fight.
This is exactly correct.
Irovetti is not supposed to be an uber-super-mastermind-BBEG.
He is secretly a poseur, a wannabe, trying to break into the Kool Kidz Klub with the other River Kings but trying to do it without having to do the real work of it. He won the kingdom in a card game (probably with some devious charm). He's got a HUGE chip on his shoulder about being looked down on and kicked out by his family in Numeria. He desperately craves respect, and he sees the PCs and their kingdom as a tool whereby he can get it. From the PCs, he can present himself as a worldly benefactor, an ally willing to help show them the ropes against the unfriendly other River Kings.
Until he backstabs them, of course, and then it's a much larger play to earn the respect of the other River Kings by taking down a new rival and enlarging his territory. Likewise, he wants to make good with the real final villain, who has the juice to make all his wishes come true.
He's a gambler living on cash advances from his credit card. As long as he can keep one step ahead of the collector he can hopefully pull a winning hand and pay it all back with extra winnings to spare. This adventure is about Irovetti not being content to poke along as the afterthought king of a backwater kingdom, but going "all in" (and then some) to take a big swing at the jackpot. He's either going to win big or lose big, but one way or the other he's going to show them all that he was SOMEBODY. He was a CONTENDER, not a pretender, and to him that is what really matters.
For Irovetti's stats... he did indeed go through MANY permutations of classes before arriving at the final stat block. If you think he'll go down too easily, I'd certainly drop a scroll of dimension door or the like in his pocket so he could UMD his way out of a sudden ambush. Also, he IS the king, so there will be a metric ton of guards that will bum-rush the PCs if they try to bushwhack him. Think about the battle scene at Aslan's How in Prince Caspian when King Miraz is killed (by his own ally, but the Telmarines THINK it was King Peter) - battle is joined in earnest as the king becomes a martyr to the cause.
Also, Irovetti controls when the attack happens, so it is entirely within your purview as the DM to allow the PCs to find out about the attacks only when Irovetti is not present. Even if the PCs figure out that he's behind the attacks, when they go look for him, he's not there because he's already left. If they leave the defense of their kingdom to their lieutenants vs. the armies of Pitax, their soldiers might get routed, calling them back to the battlefront to save their kingdom.
My players basically circumvented half of part 4 by scry & fry tactics to take out Baron Drevel in his own bed. After this, I talked to my players and agreed that teleport should have the same nerf, since I could just as easy destroy them all in their beds with the collective host of the next big bad and his lieutenants employing the same tactics.Sorry, it's unclear: how did you nerf teleport?
For what it's worth, I'm more worried about the first part of my post (how to present Irovetti as cool) than the second (how to make sure there's a war, rather than just a surgical strike against Irovetti).
The second I hope to be able to take care of by a few subtle hits along the lines of "Screw Irovetti, we must defend our country!", "His armies are already in the field, by the time they get word of his fall, half of Ulfland will be in ruins, we'll deal with him once his armies are broken!", reinforced by the inevitable desire of the players to try out the shiny new mass combat rules.
Whoops! Partial sentences does not good arguments make. I have given teleport the same "problem" as dimension door; you can't act until the next turn when you use it. And ruled that the displacement of air as you teleport in creates an audible pop that will alert anyone making a DC10 perception.
As for making Irovetti come off as awesome, I plan to re-tool some of his generals and followers into more powerful 3.5 versions of their old selves. And make his elite wardens into warblades for more flashy moves befitting the gaudy and dramatic nature of Irovetti's realm. (This is also a balance factor, since I allowed 3.5 materials in my game before thinking of the circumstances)
Also, remaking some of his heralds with the APG archetypes makes for more interesting options. When the players encounter more than one bard in a single encounter, I plan to make one a Court bard, so he can ridicule and penalize the players, while the other one buffs his allies with inspire courage.
Irovetti himself could be made into an Arcane Duelist, focusing more on his new martial side, scaring his minions into staying if the players employ fear and such.
Thanks, especially J.S. and Jason, this actually helped quite a bit!
In my game Irovetti was one of the four groups sent out to gain control of the stolen lands. He has accomplished feats similar to the PC's. It is hard not to respect someone who has done the same things, or more, that you have done. That's an interesting solution. So did Pitax as written exist before Irovetti arrived, and he annexed it, or did his group found it ( thus deleting the "long proud history" of the place)?
The land and some villages were there, but they were under constant monster and bandit attacks. Irovetti cleared out a good number of the previous troublemakers and then proceeded to build the kingdom. As for the scry and die there are spells that specifically block it. screen is one of them. I would make the image realistic so they don't suspect an illusion, but make it inaccurate enough so they can't teleport to his bed.