Question about Reflex saves


Rules Questions


How do you deprive someone of their reflex save?

I was in a game, one character was under the spell hold monster, and then the baddie dropped a fireball, and that character was able to make a relex save which entitled him to use evasion. He didnt make the reflex save, but come on, how can you have a reflex save if your paralyzed?

I guess it doesnt state in the RAW that you can be deprived a reflex save, of does it?


Helpless (paralyzation is one form of the helpless condition) targets are still allowed to make Reflex saves, but they get a HUGE penalty; their Dexterity is set to 0, which means their Dex modifier is -5. Since very, very few characters start out with less than 10 Dex and most actually have higher, that's going to be a massive hit to their Reflex save.

As for how they can actually avoid taking damage, don't necessarily think of Reflex saves and Evasion as the guy literally moving out of the way; after all, if that's what happened, you'd have to move out of the radius of a fireball to avoid taking damage from it. Instead, it's just that "something happened" that made you take less/no damage; not that the guy did something, necessarily, just that something happened. It could be that the guy in front of him shielded him from the effects of the fireball, for example.


jyster wrote:

How do you deprive someone of their reflex save?

I was in a game, one character was under the spell hold monster, and then the baddie dropped a fireball, and that character was able to make a relex save which entitled him to use evasion. He didnt make the reflex save, but come on, how can you have a reflex save if your paralyzed?

I guess it doesnt state in the RAW that you can be deprived a reflex save, of does it?

Weird, but i guess refelx save is allowed.

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Sovereign Court

One of the best ways to think of it is to think ofthe paralyzed Paladin under the effects of a Hold Person spell. Even with the massive penalty, lets say he succeeds- just as the fireball washes over him he glows with a white light that stops some of the fire getting trough.

Divine Grace in action one might say, as thats probably the biggest bonus to Reflex he has left after Dex is treated as 0.


The tough part here is that reflexes usually mean movement, and being helpless or paralyzed generally means no movement. Fort or will could explain better how you avoid soemthign while standing there stunned but we are stuck with will save and coming up with cheesey ways to make it work.

Perhaps it would be too powerful, but i'd prefer if your helpless no reflex save.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

Also note that even though you get a reflex save (using a DEX of 0), characters can't use the evasion ability while helpless.

Evasion wrote:
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

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