IT Carrion Hill PbP OOC


Play-by-Post Discussion

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Lantern Lodge

Hey friends, welcome.

Character Generation Guidelines

- 5th level characters
- 22 point buy
- Core races + aasimar and tieflings
- Core classes + APG classes only
- APG material allowed
- 2 traits
- 11,000gp character wealth; no single item can be worth more than 40% of total wealth (4,400gp)
- The game runs 5th to 6th level

Carrion Hill takes place in the Ustalavic city of Carrion Hill, a claustrophobic and strange city overtaken with urban decay and sprawling with slums, built upon a winding and ancient series of ruins, catacombs and tunnels. The game itself will be leaning on horror themes coupled with Lovecraftian influences.

Write up or update the character you'll enjoy playing; no rush involved. Once everyone's ready I'll put up the main thread and see if I can match my bark with my bite.


Master of Gaming and Grognardia Current map

Certainly sounds fun, thouhg I'd like to join a game that starts at 1st level, not offence, I feel more connection and atttachment when I've raised it from 1st level and above. Good luck though :)

Lantern Lodge

DM Aron Marczylo wrote:
Certainly sounds fun, thouhg I'd like to join a game that starts at 1st level, not offence, I feel more connection and atttachment when I've raised it from 1st level and above. Good luck though :)

Eh, it's what everyone wants. If everyone would like a level one game more, I'm willing to change it up. Just would've been a nice comment to know when you advised me to look through modules is all. :P


Master of Gaming and Grognardia Current map
DM Titan wrote:
DM Aron Marczylo wrote:
Certainly sounds fun, thouhg I'd like to join a game that starts at 1st level, not offence, I feel more connection and atttachment when I've raised it from 1st level and above. Good luck though :)
Eh, it's what everyone wants. If everyone would like a level one game more, I'm willing to change it up. Just would've been a nice comment to know when you advised me to look through modules is all. :P

Lol, well as you said, it's people's opinions. There are many models, many of them pretty damn awesome. They have a lot of decent writers and stuff after all.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Yeppers I'll play at 5th. Still want to try (and succeed) in a PBP even a one-shot, get your feet wet, we are gonna complete this game or die trying. I'll get closure, sit back and say that was fun, I learned what works for me and vice versa. Xealot PBP was my first try. I'll bump up Kiptera to fifth level and adjust accordingly. Backstory will remain similiar but advanced by 5 years.

Curiously, while I do have a plethora of modules/scenarios, I do not have Carrion Hill. No metaplaying on my end.


Aka Smerg; dotting.

I'm fine with the concept and level. I'll try to work up some sort of concept.

Should we be building more urban style investigators or more combat style dungeon crawlers? Just want to get a ratio feel of combat verses investigation verses non-combat interaction (social skills).

I want to try and put together a package that will work in the setting.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

David aka Smerg,
Do it old school. You have one character, you don't necessarily know where you are gonna end up but you hope you trained and equipped properly to compensate for shortcomings. Just like the military, You get the basics and then bust your butt to CYA before anything hits the fan. By CYA, I mean learn the frick'n job.
1) Tap the experts in town for knowledge/rumors.(Sage, merchants, travelers)
2) Prep/equip appropriately.
3) Trust but verify (Scout, scout and um interrogate)
4) Whittle away at minions, leave no trace.
5) Strategic withdrawal is always an option.
6) Goto step #1 and repeat

Lantern Lodge

David Rowe 95 wrote:

Aka Smerg; dotting.

I'm fine with the concept and level. I'll try to work up some sort of concept.

Should we be building more urban style investigators or more combat style dungeon crawlers? Just want to get a ratio feel of combat verses investigation verses non-combat interaction (social skills).

I want to try and put together a package that will work in the setting.

Urban investigators will do well in the game as well as dungeon crawling combat machines... on the flip side, a non-combat interaction based character won't have much to do. You should be able to fight reasonably well since it's D&D and the crux of the system is combat and the module itself has combat situations in it.

For other character choices, just remain aware that the game takes place almost completely in an urban setting.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Kip's Hitpoints
Max first=13
2nd 1d10 + 3 ⇒ (1) + 3 = 4
3rd 1d10 + 3 ⇒ (2) + 3 = 5
4th 1d10 + 3 ⇒ (10) + 3 = 13
5th 1d10 + 3 ⇒ (7) + 3 = 10

Total = 45 Hitpoints
Choose additional two feats, increase one ability score +1
Decisions decisions.


Male Human (Teldrua) Modern Hero (Soldier) 2

Nice!!! 5th level can I change character or must keep the same?

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Just busting on y'all. GM Titan stated Character Generation not You're stuck, advance them to 5th. I am being stubborn and sticking with Kip. Gonna try the Skirmisher version of Ranger as per APG. Spellcasting is overrated. ;>

Lantern Lodge

Caelin McHern wrote:
Nice!!! 5th level can I change character or must keep the same?

You can change if you'd like, or advance up; whichever!


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

I downloaded my copy of the APG last night. I'm now trying to go through all the options available to see what I want to try first.


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

Well, I'm feeling like making some sort of shooty striker type.

Let's see that narrows it down to

Fighter - Crossbowman or Archer
Monk - Zen Archer
Rogue - Sniper
Alchemist - Bomber
Oracle - Flame
Inquisitor - Crossbow user
Wizard - Fire School

I like crossbows and I like fire; so, either will be good to me.

Race wise, non elf or half-elf. Likely non-halfling too.

That's as far as I've got on my thinking.

I know that I don't want to be a front line type but instead toss damage from the back of the group.

I can go something like Oracle or possibly Cleric to add healing to the group if needed.

OTOH Zen Archer just seems kwel.

Ah, choices choices choices


Male Human Sorcerer 5 (draconic bloodline - gold)

I'm working on updating my Draconic Sorcerer, who will be all about Fire spells, so I'd suggest you go the crossbow route. Or else I'll rethink my character concept.

Not telling you what to do of course. Just sharing my thoughts.


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

This is why I like to talk out my thoughts here; so, I don't go stepping on other character's toes.

Though, I've felt that the thing that goes best with fire is well, more fire. I've played in City of Heroes on all fire teams. It is glorious to have that much 'Rain of Fire' going on all at the same time (Rain of Fire is a large Area of Effect spell that ticks off constant damage. It also has a fear component which unfortunately causes mobs to scatter but if you have enough of it stacked on cue then mobs don't run fast enough before melting in the heat).

I'll definitely look into the crossbow user (lots of good options though going to pass on Ranger version) and Zen Archer.

Lantern Lodge

Smerg wrote:


I'll definitely look into the crossbow user (lots of good options though going to pass on Ranger version) and Zen Archer.

My friend can't say enough good things about the Zen Archer, but my allegiances lie with the Drunken Master. I don't know why, but I love it.

Looks like things are rolling along smoothly.


Male Human (Teldrua) Modern Hero (Soldier) 2

I'll update Caelin to lvl 5 then =) this shall be plenty of fun fun fun xD yeah I got my APG also reading to find intresting things


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

Well, I think that I'm going to go with Inquisitor.

I've looked at my options and then looked at all the new spells they gave Inquisitors and decided that I needed to go with them.

Spell names like

Brand
Tireless Pursuit
Flames of the Faithful
Confess
Weapon of Awe

Just seem so wonderful that it is hard to resist.

I now just really need to settle on a race.

Human is very tempting with the bonus known spell per level. It may just be an extra three orisons and two level one spells but with all the choices it is hard to resist.

Half-Orc is another good choice with the bonus of +5/2 or +2.5 to Intimidate and Knowledge checks to identify monsters.

Still, Gnome and Dwarf are not bad when you consider they can get bonuses when fighting things like Aberrants and oozes.

I just can't wait to Brand my first penitent. {If I was still playing a witch then I would cackle now.}

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

So Caelin is gonna ride Kiptera skirt tails huh? Stalking a ranger probably aint too healthy. ;-) Not that we need a background with this short adventure but do you mind if I tie you into mine? Crossing paths once or three times in the five years since Tanners Crossing?

Smerg: No righteous path for Kiptera. She blazes her own trail. I'll leave future discussions to the civil religous discussion thread.

Thanks Titan for throwing this together. I vote any diplomat in party should walk in front. hehehe.


Male Human (Teldrua) Modern Hero (Soldier) 2

Well I don't mind it at all just trying to think if I'll turn him into barbarian/rogue or pure fighter and just think the kind of fighter he is going to be (besides melee lol) I might even change his race... aasimar mm... lol with the bastard trait that could work just like the tiefling trait so it's EL 0 instad of +1


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

Well, I wouldn't worry too much on the religion side of things.

I'm thinking of going with Erastil which is the hunter and also LG deity. I'll likely take the Sub-domain of Growth which is part of the Plant domain which I think is in Erastil's portfolio.


Male Human (mostly) Mystic Theurge

Jason said that inquisitors can't take subdomains. It's not clarified in the book, annoyingly. Guess it's DM's call.

Lantern Lodge

Black Tom wrote:
Jason said that inquisitors can't take subdomains. It's not clarified in the book, annoyingly. Guess it's DM's call.

I think that's a little silly. No reason to do that, really, so I'd allow a subdomain for an Inquisitor.


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2
DM Titan wrote:
Black Tom wrote:
Jason said that inquisitors can't take subdomains. It's not clarified in the book, annoyingly. Guess it's DM's call.
I think that's a little silly. No reason to do that, really, so I'd allow a subdomain for an Inquisitor.

kk, thank-you.

----------------

I agree that it would be odd that Inquisitor's couldn't have a sub-domain. They don't even necessarily need to have a Deity they follow but can choose an ideal like Oracles or Paladins (At least according to the fluff text in the domain selection section of the Inquisitor).

Also, the powers of the sub-domains aren't any more powerful then the options that already exist in main domains (choose Liberation to get Freedom of Movement or Travel to get +10' speed and ignore difficult terrain) and Religion Traits (choose Sarenrae to get a +2 melee damage with scimitar on critical).

It also helps out with some of the domain powers being things that have no application for an Inquisitor like the Sun Domain level 1 power that needs the ability to channel positive energy to be effective.

Growth replaces Plants wooden fists (free action) with a plus to damage equal to half the cleric level with the ability to cast enlarge only on yourself as a swift action.

Enlarge is nice for increasing your damage die by roughly 50% but there are plenty of ways to get that buff from other players or potions. The Swift part is the gain. It also comes at a downside to Dex and Size Large to the ability to ranged attacks (-2 to hit).

I'm actually probably better off going with paired scimitars or dwarven axes and two-weapon fighting since I can get the Team Feat Precise Strike (well get Solo Tactics and free adjustable Teamwork feat). Add in any of the feats like Killer or Dirty Fighter (only one Trait bonus can apply). Go with Travel or Liberation Domain and you have a very good Drow Elf Clone.

The Inquisitor is a bit better with ranged weapon choice because of the Bane ability compared to going with the Two-Weapon Fighter approach. Still, I had a very respectable version of a Fighter adding a good +10 damage per crossbow shot and firing two shots per round at level 5 (without any magic and just using feats).


Ok I checked what I could play and the only possibility is a female Half orc monk named Dream Butterfly .
Just tell me if I have to convert her from 3.5

Lantern Lodge

robin wrote:

Ok I checked what I could play and the only possibility is a female Half orc monk named Dream Butterfly .

Just tell me if I have to convert her from 3.5

Yep. Pathfinder game.


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

This site covers the main pathfinder rules.

Pathfinder Standard Reference Document OGL

The Advance Player's Guide is 10.00 as an Adobe download which is frankly a steal of a price. I have a regular copy coming from my local game shop but at 10.00 I had no hesitation to purchase an electronic copy.


I have the rules (except the advanced player ) . I just wanted to know if an existing character would be all right


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

Hmm...trying to figure out how much investigation skill (knowledge skills and several tracking style spells) and how much combat skill to build on this inquisitor.

Also trying to figure out how much range and how much melee ability. I can do one well and do the other so/so depending on feat selection.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

I am trying a bit of both as well. My Ranger is set for range attacks, but can step into melee if needed. Toying with disarm feat, still not sure. Do I want to min/max (no!) or roleplay with combat. My equipment also is not wholly combat oriented. We will see of I chose wisely. Curiously, it parallels RL.


Male Human (Teldrua) Modern Hero (Soldier) 2

Well I'm going to be the combat focus guy xD


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

The following is what I have so far.

I haven't spent the allocated 11,000 gp yet or decided really on magical items though I have some thoughts. What are other people doing?

The character is a good tracker and has monster lore of plenty of different skills (jack of all trades and bits of knowledge). His perception skills combined with his spell choice makes him very good at spotting things and following people.

Combat wise, he turned into a flanker concept. He still has the repeating crossbow but his two-weapon fighting and power attack make for a good melee fighter but he won't have the armour or hit points to do the main line.

Hit point rolls 2nd to 5th 4d8 ⇒ (7, 7, 1, 8) = 23

Tusk:

Inquisitor Character -- Tusk, Half-Orc

Str 18
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 9

7 +2.5 dex
5 +2 wis
2 +1 Int
2 +1 Con
-1 -1 Cha
7 +2.5 Str
= 22pts
Orc +2 Ability Str
4th Str +1

Combat Abilities
Initiative +4 (+2 Dex +2 Cunnning Initiative)
BAB +3
CMB +7 = +3 BAB +4 Str
CMD 19 = 10 + 3 BAB +4 Str +2 Dex

Armour Class and Hit Points
Hit Points
AC
Touch
Flat Footed

Saves
Fort +5 = +4 +1
Ref +3 = +1 +2
Wil +6 = +4 +2 (+2 vs Demon affects)

Feats
1st Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd Power Attack
5th Keen Scent *APG Feats (Scent Ability)

Half-Orc
Size Medium
Move 30'
Vision Darkvision 60'
Scavanger +2 Appraise, +2 Perception find Hidden Objects including Traps and secret doors *APG Racial Trait
Orc Blood
Toothy Primary Natural Attack 1d4 Piercing damage *APG Racial Trait
Weapon Familiarity Chain Fighter proficient Flail and Heavy Flail *APG Racial Trait
Languages Common, Orc, Abyssal

Traits
Asmodeun Demon Hunter +3 Knowledge (planes) Checks Demons and +2 Will Save mind affecting spells and effects from demons
Dirty Fighter +1 Trait Damage when flanking

Inquisitor
Favoured Class Inquisitor (choose +1 skill rank per level)
1a> Domain Knowledge
-- 1st All knowledge skills are class skills
-- 1st Lore Keeper (Sp) Touch Attack for Skill check result 15 + Inq level + Wis Bon (22+mon lore=24)
1b> Judgement (Su) Swift Action 2/day
1c> Monster Lore (Ex) + Wis Bon to identify monsters
1d> Orisons
1e> Stern Gaze (Ex) +1/2 Inq level on Intimidate and Sense Motive (+3)
2a> Cunning Initiative (Ex) + Wis Bon to Initiative (+2)
2b> Detect Alignment (Sp)
2c> Track (Ex) +1/2 Inq lvl to Survival (+3)
3a> Solo Tactics (Ex)
3b> Teamwork Feat Standard Action to change and may change (Wis Bon)/day (2/day)
5a> Bane (Su) Swift Action Bane Weapon (Inq lvl) rds/day (5 rds/day)
5b> Discern Lies (Sp) Immediate Action (Inq lvl) rds/day (5 rds/day)

Spells Per Day
Orisons unlimited
1st level 5/day
2nd level 3/day

Spells Known (APG spells marked *)
Orisions (6 spells) - Sift*, Brand*, Stabilize, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Detect Magic
1st Level (4 spells) - Burst Bonds*, Wrath*, Expedius Retreat, Comprehend Languages
2nd Level (3 Spells) - Bloodhound*, Flames of the Faithful*, Perceive Cues*

Skills (Favoured Class bonus is +1 skill rank per level) (40 skill ranks)
(all Knowledge skills are class skills)
+3 Bluff (1 ranks -1 Cha +3 Class)
+8 Climb (1 ranks +4 Str +3 class)
+3 Diplomacy (1 ranks -1 Cha +3 Class)
+3 Disguise (1 ranks -1 Cha +3 Class) (+10 Hat Disguise)
+6 Heal (1 ranks +2 Wis +3 Class)
+8 Intimidate (3 ranks -1 Cha +3 Class +3 Stern Gaze)
+5 Knowledge (Arcana) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class) (+2 Monster Lore)
+5 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class) (+2 Monster Lore)
+5 Knowledge (Nature) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class) (+2 Monster Lore)
+5 Knowledge (Planes) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class) (+2 Monster Lore +3 Demons Lore)
+5 Knowledge (Religion) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class) (+2 Monster Lore)
+5 Knowledge (geography) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class)
+5 Knowledge (history) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class)
+5 Knowledge (local) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class)
+5 Knowledge (nobility) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 class)
+10 Perception (5 ranks +2 Wis +3 Class) (+2 Scavenger) (Spells) (Darkvision 60', Scent)
+6 Ride (1 ranks +2 Dex +3 Class)
+13 Sense Motive (5 ranks +2 Wis +3 Class +3 Stern Gaze)
+5 Spellcraft (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class)
+6 Stealth (1 ranks +2 Dex +3 Class)
+10 Survival (5 ranks +2 Wis +3 Class) (+3 Track) (Scent to track see Bestiary)
+8 Swim (1 ranks +4 Str +3 Class)
+2 Appraise (1 ranks +1 Int) (+2 Scavenger)
+5 Craft (Alchemy) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class)
+5 Craft (Traps) (1 ranks +1 Int +3 Class)
+6 Profession (Monster Hunter) (1 ranks +2 Wis +3 Class)
40 ranks

Weapons
Spiked Gauntlets
Flails
Heavy Repeating Crossbow

Armour

Equipment
Hat of Disguise (1,800)

I'll put the above in an alias and break the above list into discrete spoilers when I finalize the idea.

Lantern Lodge

Smerg wrote:

The following is what I have so far.

I haven't spent the allocated 11,000 gp yet or decided really on magical items though I have some thoughts. What are other people doing?

The character is a good tracker and has monster lore of plenty of different skills (jack of all trades and bits of knowledge). His perception skills combined with his spell choice makes him very good at spotting things and following people.

Combat wise, he turned into a flanker concept. He still has the repeating crossbow but his two-weapon fighting and power attack make for a good melee fighter but he won't have the armour or hit points to do the main line.

Hit point rolls 2nd to 5th 4d8

** spoiler omitted **...

Looks good!

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Kiptera is updated with skillsets/feats/equipment list. Tried to tie it in with her history and not be like a kid in candystore, well OK the Javelins of Lightning are pretty cool! I can drop those if I should look into money reserves and a couple of potions.

Caelin, if you are keeping same character, I could see Kiptera picking a teamwork feat in lieu of Fast Healer considering the history tween them.


Tusk the Monster Hunter

Background (with elements borrowed from The Phantom)

Many generations ago, there was a tribe of orcs living the good life of hunting, pillaging, and warring. They were led by their chief, Tusk. Tusk was famed for his large teeth that were the envy of many orcs. Tusk was a good chief with two sons and three daughters.

Into this happy life arrived a wizard promising that he could give Tusk a son greater than his previous sons. This new son would be known and feared through out the lands. Tusk was getting older and the idea of having a son greater than his current sons and that would be feared throughout the lands appealed to him. Tusk agreed to the arrangement.

This deal sealed the fate of Tusk and his many generations of descendants. Tusk, his sons, his daughters, and many of the best warriors of the tribe were away hunting a mysterious creature in the woods when the time of the birthing occurred. Only a few old men and women that survived the birthing. They spoke of three creatures that ripped their way out of their mother. That night, Tusk had a vision promising that he and his clan would never be allowed to rest until the creatures and the last of the wizard’s line were purged from the land.

Tusk immediately organized a hunt of vengeance for the wizard and the creatures. Years of hunting went past. Tusk was no closer to completing his hunt and he was getting older. He cornered one demon only to have it taunt him how he would never live long enough to complete his hunt of vengeance. He wasn’t immortal. He wasn’t a demon.

Tusk decided that the only way to fight the forces of evil was to become immortal. He needed to become a demon. He gathered his clan and told them his plan. They swore an oath to dedicate their lives and their children to the hunt of demons till the last of the wizard’s line and all the creatures that he had spawned were hunted down and destroyed. To keep the oath of vengeance strong, they set up a secret organization to keep the legend of Tusk alive.

When the current Tusk dies, a new Tusk is chosen to take previous Tusk’s place. The new Tusk inherit’s the legacy of the previous Tusks which includes the reliquary containing the bones of all the prior Tusks. It is said that each Tusk can consult with the reliquary for the wisdom of the past generations.

The current Tusk is actually the eighteenth to have the title. He received the title when his uncle was declared dead and his bones were added to the reliquary. This is how the first Tusk cheated death and became an immortal demon. This is how the legend of ‘The Demon that Can Not Die’ was forged.

Lantern Lodge

Looks good. Should be able to tie it in well.

Everyone, let me know when you're done and I can start the actual game.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Kiptera, tired and feeling a bit grimy, rides into Carrion Hill. Again. The first time was just passing through as a caravan guard a month ago. Unable to find work heading in the direction she wanted, She took her meager pay and grumbled "Harumph, fills the belly and keeps employer contacts fresh." and backtracks to the last town, Carrion Hill.

Looking around as she rides ol' faithful Dimple, she thinks,Too bad I couldn't take a paying job enroute. Always try to make at least one new contact. Perhaps I could find someone of interest, someone cute, decent beard with pride in his work and name... Shakes her head with such silly thoughts of dalliance, Keep your head in the game, Kip... Stay focused. [sigh] Carrion Hill seems like such a "promising" name. This time, I'll ask about the origins of the town to aquire that namesake.

She turns Dimple towards one of the taverns she remembers served the better food and clean rooms. "Yep, this'll do for now."

Kiptera ready and reporting in.


Male Human (Teldrua) Modern Hero (Soldier) 2

I just need to finish equipment since I've had a lot of work these days


Male Human Sorcerer 5 (draconic bloodline - gold)

Ragnar is ready to go.


Tusk is ready to go.

Details have been added into his Alias and Spoilers used to keep it clean.

I just need to copy in his background to the Alias.

Lantern Lodge

Alrighty. Expect to see the opening post sometime in the next hour or so, then.

Lantern Lodge

Right here!

In Carrion Hill, it rains all the time. I kind of like to listen to the ambient sounds of stuff that's going on as I write, so, use this if you need rain!


Male Human (Teldrua) Modern Hero (Soldier) 2

I friggin don't know why ut I can't edit my character pag, postmonsta is also stalking me all day long to day, is the APG mania still that bad or something?


The Postmonsta must've level'd up today because he was gobbling up the whole website for several hours.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Hey great to see three of us, four including DM Titan ready. and the board is up more than it is down, at least for me. Welcome back Black Tom.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

I know the weekends are kinda slow for PBPs, but do you think we three will be enough? Should we advertise to accept two or three others?
Or play smart and cautious with just us three...


Male Human (mostly) Mystic Theurge

Thank you, Kiptera. :)

As to recruiting more players, I'll leave that to the DM. I'm fine either way.


Male Half Orc Cleric 2 Fighter 2

As long as people come to play and post regularly then I am good either with the number we have or increasing it as the DM chooses.

The Exchange

Female Dwarf Wizard 1

Hey either way. Just us three, playing cautious and smart. We could even go old school and get hirelings if any are to be found.
I am kinda thinking of trying this. Can three make a difference? Two Meat Shields and a bit of a spellcaster.

Otherwise:
I suggest looking thru some recruiting threads and asking a select few of the not recruited. I could probably come up with one or two.

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