"Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?" thread on Enworld


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The thread would be closer to the real question if it was stated: 'Did WotC underestimate the OGL effect on 4e?'

I love Paizo, and their success is due to their excellent material and their love of the game. But, without the OGL, they would be scrambling to come up with a new mechanics system to compete. They would have had to sever ties completely with the traditions of D&D. I don't know how that scenario plays out. I think things would have been much sketchier for them.

Conversely, if Paizo didn't exist I would think that the OGL itself would have generated a community of open-source gamers using it to create new material. Not as well as Paizo, I am sure, but the movement wouldn't have died. It wouldn't have had a rally point like Paizo became, but I think there would have been many supporters willing to use the open-source game rules.

I think that WotC would love to be able to rescind the OGL. They have made their own competition. Of course, I think that the OGL is the BEST thing that ever happened to gaming. Freedom and open-source code will always be preferable (IMO) to proprietary gaming engines. I like having 3pp options and a true cross-fertilization of ideas. Just reading the villans and monsters from the final Kingmaker AP installment (with templates and monsters pulled from many different non-Paizo sources) I was reminded what the OGL's main strength is. A shared community with a unified gaming engine.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Moro wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

people just want to play something, and will play whatever is put in front of them.*

*Not an insult. I have just noticed that the socializing aspect is a lot more important than the gaming aspect so they dont care too much about what the ruleset is.

This sums it up for the vast majority of the gamers that I know. As long as they're having a good time, most of them could care less what system they're playing with.

+1

So very damn true! good times must be had by all! break out the vodka!


Patrick Curtin wrote:
Of course, I think that the OGL is the BEST thing that ever happened to gaming. Freedom and open-source code will always be preferable (IMO) to proprietary gaming engines. I like having 3pp options and a true cross-fertilization of ideas. Just reading the villans and monsters from the final Kingmaker AP installment (with templates and monsters pulled from many different non-Paizo sources) I was reminded what the OGL's main strength is. A shared community with a unified gaming engine.

And that just about sums it up.

Liberty's Edge

Fascinating discussion.

The combination of the OGL and the rise of the Internet brought role-playing out of a doldrums, a geekish ghetto, into being a mainstream, if niche, hobby. Ideas were able to spread freely, and be used commercially as well as for your own gaming group. It empowered a lot of creative souls who either didn't want to go full-time into the industry or who didn't want to have to create a whole ruleset for themselves to still get published and maybe even make some money out of their hobby.

The involvement of players in the development of D20, while not as open as that of Pathfinder, was wider than that of 4e, at least if you happened to be active in the RPGA. With 4e, even the 'hardcore' WotC fanbase were shut out. The 'Dungeons & Dragons' label is very important from the branding point of view, but it isn't enough to sustain a product line on its own.

Now, I like both 4e AND Pathfinder, and play both. 4e nearly lost me when WotC decided to stop selling PDFs - as that's what I'd been buying. But I've kept up, more for ensuring that RPG Resource covers ALL games than any other reason. For my own gaming, core books suffice, I prefer to homebrew than purchase setting/adventure materials.

I think WotC has thought more like the Coca-Colas and Levis of the marketing world. Role-playing doesn't work quite like that and never has done. Paizo has got the idea, so did Alderac with the introduction of the original Spycraft game, so do several other companies in the hobby.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What's not being taken into account was the effect OGL had on 3.x

A lot of potential WOTC customers for settings materials like Eberron and the Realms went over to third party publishers like Paradigm, and Paizo in the days when Pathfinder was just a collection of 3.5 adventure paths. In the minds of the bean counters the OGL and Open Gaming had given away the store and they saw all the bucks being spent on 3rd party products without a dime going to Hasbro/WOTC. So the inevitable backlash came into play when the new game was made.

Scarab Sages

Orthos wrote:
Patrick Curtin wrote:
Of course, I think that the OGL is the BEST thing that ever happened to gaming. Freedom and open-source code will always be preferable (IMO) to proprietary gaming engines. I like having 3pp options and a true cross-fertilization of ideas. Just reading the villans and monsters from the final Kingmaker AP installment (with templates and monsters pulled from many different non-Paizo sources) I was reminded what the OGL's main strength is. A shared community with a unified gaming engine.
And that just about sums it up.

+1.

I happen to multiclass between computer geek and tabletop roleplaying geek, and IMHO both are improved vastly by open source licenses to allow people freedom to develop their ideas on top of others. The only way progress can occur is to for new ideas to build atop old...standing on the shoulders of giants, as it were.

I quit using Windows to change to Ubuntu Linux, and using my computer has never been as easy or pleasant.

I quit 4E for PF, and I can say the same of roleplaying. It's all of the things I like about 3.5, with only about 10% of the things I did not.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As said before, without the numbers it's hard to tell what real effect PF has had on 4e. I'm guessing not a lot - if anything, the WotC designers feel the heat of competition from the Paizo folks, and use that drive to make the best possible product. That's the best aspect of competition - it brings out the finest efforts!

The good thing for gamers is that there are two living, modern fantasy "D&D" systems out there to use, and they're both top notch - each has its feats and flaws. Not debating that here.

On a personal level, what drove me towards the PF end of the spectrum is Paizo's healthy respect for nostalgia. I like that 4e is a fresh system, enabling its players to try out some new ideas and concepts. I HATED (and still do) that WotC decided to gloriously shed many of the historical fluffy aspects in favor of new and different (not improved) ones.

My 2 cp...

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