No Shield Slam for the Shielded Fighter?


Rules Questions

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I have a character whose whole build is built around the concept of Shield Slam. I had thought that the Shielded Fighter would be perfect for this build, but the feat has TWF as a prereq. Seems an odd oversight that there wasn't a caveat for this out into the archetype's abilities.

Was this a mistake or intentional?

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Wolfthulhu wrote:

I have a character whose whole build is built around the concept of Shield Slam. I had thought that the Shielded Fighter would be perfect for this build, but the feat has TWF as a prereq. Seems an odd oversight that there wasn't a caveat for this out into the archetype's abilities.

Was this a mistake or intentional?

Intentional.

Fighters already get bonus fighter feats at 1st and every even level. That's part of their suite of class abilities.

The class ability archetypes in the APG for fighters trade out things for their OTHER class abilities (bravery, armor training/mastery, weapon training/mastery). Trading these abilities for more bonus feats would be superfluous, since you're already getting bonus feats with the other half of your fighter class abilities.

There is nothing whatsoever preventing you from taking any feats you like, including TWF and Shield Slam, with your fighter bonus feats (or your regular feat slots, for that matter). Your feat selection would presumably stay the same as it is now, unless you wanted to add some of the many new shield feats in the APG.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.
Jason Nelson wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

I have a character whose whole build is built around the concept of Shield Slam. I had thought that the Shielded Fighter would be perfect for this build, but the feat has TWF as a prereq. Seems an odd oversight that there wasn't a caveat for this out into the archetype's abilities.

Was this a mistake or intentional?

Intentional.

Fighters already get bonus fighter feats at 1st and every even level. That's part of their suite of class abilities.

The class ability archetypes in the APG for fighters trade out things for their OTHER class abilities (bravery, armor training/mastery, weapon training/mastery). Trading these abilities for more bonus feats would be superfluous, since you're already getting bonus feats with the other half of your fighter class abilities.

There is nothing whatsoever preventing you from taking any feats you like, including TWF and Shield Slam, with your fighter bonus feats (or your regular feat slots, for that matter). Your feat selection would presumably stay the same as it is now, unless you wanted to add some of the many new shield feats in the APG.

Hmm, not quite what I meant. I wasn't saying there should be a bonus feat granted or they should get TWF for free. Rather that the archetype should get a pass on the prereq, since the whole point seems to be to allow effective shield bashing without TWF, but as written, if you want Shield Slam you have to take it anyway.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

I have a character whose whole build is built around the concept of Shield Slam. I had thought that the Shielded Fighter would be perfect for this build, but the feat has TWF as a prereq. Seems an odd oversight that there wasn't a caveat for this out into the archetype's abilities.

Was this a mistake or intentional?

Intentional.

Fighters already get bonus fighter feats at 1st and every even level. That's part of their suite of class abilities.

The class ability archetypes in the APG for fighters trade out things for their OTHER class abilities (bravery, armor training/mastery, weapon training/mastery). Trading these abilities for more bonus feats would be superfluous, since you're already getting bonus feats with the other half of your fighter class abilities.

There is nothing whatsoever preventing you from taking any feats you like, including TWF and Shield Slam, with your fighter bonus feats (or your regular feat slots, for that matter). Your feat selection would presumably stay the same as it is now, unless you wanted to add some of the many new shield feats in the APG.

Hmm, not quite what I meant. I wasn't saying there should be a bonus feat granted or they should get TWF for free. Rather that the archetype should get a pass on the prereq, since the whole point seems to be to allow effective shield bashing without TWF, but as written, if you want Shield Slam you have to take it anyway.

Ah, I see. I mistook the meaning of your question.

That's probably a rational argument to make, given that the shield fighter lets you swap shield for weapon attacks at 5th level, whereas normally you have to be TWFing to get shield bashes.

I'd probably allow it to function as a prereq for Shield Slam.


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PHB II did this really well by making Shield Fighting a separate and unrelated line of actions from TWF, and I think it didn't use the crazy Dex requirements either. Adding shield fighting into the TWF line pointlessly saddles anyone but a Ranger with needing to waste points in Dex.


Cartigan wrote:
PHB II did this really well by making Shield Fighting a separate and unrelated line of actions from TWF, and I think it didn't use the crazy Dex requirements either. Adding shield fighting into the TWF line pointlessly saddles anyone but a Ranger with needing to waste points in Dex.

Drop the prerequisites for TWF by 2 each feat (or just make feats scale) could work, too.


That's the price you pay for using the shield offensively instead of defensively.

And it is two weapon fighting, even if one weapon happens to be a shield you put to off-label use.


KaeYoss wrote:

That's the price you pay for using the shield offensively instead of defensively.

And it is two weapon fighting, even if one weapon happens to be a shield you put to off-label use.

Yes, 10 pounds of a metallic plate strapped to your forearm requires lots of finesse to whack people with.

Why not make a Dex requirement to even use a shield?


Covered in another thread, but I still have to say, the moment someone can prove to me that there is no appreciable difference in the training needed to smack a guy with your shield, even if it makes you vunerable to do so, versus wielding two weapons at the same time, I'll change my house rule.

As it is, in my games, if you want to shield bash and swing your sword, go ahead. Use one of your multiple iteritive attacks to do so. You don't have iteritives yet, or you want extra attacks? Then you are two-weapon fighting.

I'm wondering if people are forgetting that mechanically, two weapon fighting is about getting extra attacks because you have multiple weapons/weapon with multiple attack parts. Two weapon fighting isn't about "Hey, that guy is holding a potion in his off hand, he could use it as an improvised weapon, why isn't he taking the penalties for two-weapon fighting!"

I guess I'm a very unintelligent person, because I can't see why so many people are choosing to interpret it this way.

Geh, gonna stop before I get my ire up.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Take two levels of Ranger. Use the Urban Ranger archetype, if you hate being a woodsy guy. Only bad side of it is not being able to use Heavy Armor until you get enough money for a mithral full plate.


Jason Nelson wrote:


That's probably a rational argument to make, given that the shield fighter lets you swap shield for weapon attacks at 5th level, whereas normally you have to be TWFing to get shield bashes.

I'd probably allow it to function as a prereq for Shield Slam.

Exactly. Any chance of that tweak being incorporated into a future errata? Because as it stands, it's a bit of a schyzophrenic branching out in shield fighter feats.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Viriato wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:


That's probably a rational argument to make, given that the shield fighter lets you swap shield for weapon attacks at 5th level, whereas normally you have to be TWFing to get shield bashes.

I'd probably allow it to function as a prereq for Shield Slam.

Exactly. Any chance of that tweak being incorporated into a future errata? Because as it stands, it's a bit of a schyzophrenic branching out in shield fighter feats.

I'm not part of the errata-making club, but you can explain the issue and hit the FAQ tag and it may get addressed whenever errata get done.


TWF should be replaced with Agile Shield Fighter from PHB II

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I just added a feat in my game called "Strong Shoulders" that functions as TWF but only for off-hand shield attacks. Pre-req of Str 15 (rather than Dex) and allows heavy shields to count as light weapons for the purpose of penalties.

It balances out fine, so far. I allow it to count as TWF to meet the pre-reqs for other feats like Double Slice, but they'll need to meet the standard Dex requirement if they want Improved TWF, etc. for additional off-hand attacks.

The Exchange

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

Ok, dredging this back up, now that everyone seems mostly recovered from GenCon.

To try to make this as clear as I can, since there was some confusion after my first post:

It seems to me the best thing about using a shield offensively is the tactical usefulness of Shield Slam. Honestly, they aren't great weapons. A d3 (d4 with spikes) + 1/2 Str bonus for a light shield is barely pushing the bounds of acceptable, up that to d4/d6 if you're willing to take the additional penalty for not using a light weapon and use a heavy shield. Which is fine, a shield is a defensive tool, not an offensive one. I get that and agree totally.

Shield Slam allows a Bullrush with your shield bash attacks, handy for setting up a rogue's flank, getting one more target into the mage's AoE, or excluding a target form the cleric's upcoming Channel Positive Energy. Seems like a Great ability for a Shielded Fighter.

The Problem: Shield Slam requires TWF, however the new Shielded Fighter bypasses TWF completely.

Shouldn't the text of Shielded Fighter include a Pass on the TWF requirement for Shield Slam? Without that, I am really having a hard time justifying the Shielded Fighter over a Sword & Board TWF build, even though the SF is exactly what I had in mind when I created the character in question. So much so that I only ever planned on taking the first TWF feat as I only wanted the 'option' of making an attack with my shield.

Anyway, getting long winded. I was just hoping to hear that this was an oversight and not intentional.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Hmm...loooking at things I see what you mean. I would think the easiest solution would be to allow the Shielded Fighter class ability to count as the Two Weapon Fighting feat for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of taking Shield Slam. You're not getting any extra attacks, you're just adding the Bull Rush to any shield attacks.

Has anyone else taken a look at this?

Contributor

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I've brought this to Jason's attention.


magnuskn wrote:
Take two levels of Ranger. Use the Urban Ranger archetype, if you hate being a woodsy guy. Only bad side of it is not being able to use Heavy Armor until you get enough money for a mithral full plate.

Obvious man says: You still need the Heavy Armor porficiency to wear mithral full plate without penalty.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I've brought this to Jason's attention.

/casts raise dead on topic...

Any word on that? It has just become very relevant to me, and I would like to know about this.


Wolfthulhu wrote:

...

The Problem: Shield Slam requires TWF, however the new Shielded Fighter bypasses TWF completely.
...

+1

Looking at the 5th level Shield Fighter ability for a Shielded Fighter it says:

Core page 108 wrote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.

So a fighter at +6/+1 can do weapon/weapon, weapon/shield, shield/weapon, and shield/shield as I understand it.

You still need Improved Shield Bash to be able to keep your shield bonus of your shield.

Now, as an aside, what about Whirlwind? If you have 4 targets does that mean you can alternate in your shield at your full BAB?

I have a Dex 13 Fighter using this build and so far I like it.


harmor wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

...

The Problem: Shield Slam requires TWF, however the new Shielded Fighter bypasses TWF completely.
...

+1

Looking at the 5th level Shield Fighter ability for a Shielded Fighter it says:

Core page 108 wrote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.

So a fighter at +6/+1 can do weapon/weapon, weapon/shield, shield/weapon, and shield/shield as I understand it.

You still need Improved Shield Bash to be able to keep your shield bonus of your shield.

Now, as an aside, what about Whirlwind? If you have 4 targets does that mean you can alternate in your shield at your full BAB?

I have a Dex 13 Fighter using this build and so far I like it.

Correct on all points so far, but Whirlwind is another issue that needs an answer. I would say that falls under Shield Fighter, but you never know. The route I'm going is more of a walking fortress that can turn into a train at a moment's notice (bodyguarding, combat patrolling, and rhino charging with bullrush/overrun). Having Shield Slam is a must for my build (and I would honestly say just about ANY build with this archetype) but the TWF prerequisite is a feat tax that serves no purpose when the 5ht level feature kicks in.


Kryzbyn wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Take two levels of Ranger. Use the Urban Ranger archetype, if you hate being a woodsy guy. Only bad side of it is not being able to use Heavy Armor until you get enough money for a mithral full plate.
Obvious man says: You still need the Heavy Armor porficiency to wear mithral full plate without penalty.

Youd have that from Ftr, but can't use ranger bonus feats in heavy armor.

Grand Lodge

Bringing this back up again because I have a player whose interested in main-handing a shield, off-handing a short sword.

If you took the TWF line, could you use Shield Fighter to switch all your off hand attacks to the shield? So 4 shield bashes at level 6 instead of 2 bashes and 2 stabs?

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xen wrote:

Bringing this back up again because I have a player whose interested in main-handing a shield, off-handing a short sword.

If you took the TWF line, could you use Shield Fighter to switch all your off hand attacks to the shield? So 4 shield bashes at level 6 instead of 2 bashes and 2 stabs?

Unless I've missed an errata or a FAQ, you can't "main-hand" a shield at all. Shield bash is explicitly and specifically called out by the rules as an off-hand attack. From the PRD:

"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."

"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."

A shield bash, by definition in the rules, is an off-hand attack. Whatever other weapon you may use with it, by definition, is your main hand, because a shield bash cannot be your main hand.

Right? Left? PF doesn't get into handedness. When shield bashing, your main hand is whichever hand DOES NOT make a shield bash attack.

So, in answer to your question, yes, with the TWF line at level 6 you could take all 4 attacks with your shield, and they would all be off-hand attacks.

Grand Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:

Tracking right or left handedness isn't something we bother with in Pathfinder. The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.

If you have a longsword in your right hand and a shield in your left, and you only attack with a shield bash in a round, that shield bash is NOT considered an off-hand or secondary attack for that round.

So assuming you are main-handing a shield, it'd be +4/+4/+2/+2 at 6th level correct?

Grand Lodge

Anyone have any ideas on this. I need a rules lawyer for once.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

That's correct. At 12 with Shield Mastery, you lose the TWF penalty for the shield entirely.

==Aelryinth


Xen wrote:

Bringing this back up again because I have a player whose interested in main-handing a shield, off-handing a short sword.

If you took the TWF line, could you use Shield Fighter to switch all your off hand attacks to the shield? So 4 shield bashes at level 6 instead of 2 bashes and 2 stabs?

This is correct. The shielded fighter really lends itself to using a net or whip to trip/disarm/entangle people then smashing them to bits with your shield. Also a heavy spiked shield with the bashing enhancement has a very nice base damage even if it does have a terrible crit range. 4 attacks for 2d6 damage at lvl 6 is not shabby.


Except when you're in a campaign where the DM rules that adding an Armor spikes overrides the +1 Bashing shield property.

1d6 + 1 + 1/2 str @ 20/x2 \o/

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

harmor wrote:

Except when you're in a campaign where the DM rules that adding an Armor spikes overrides the +1 Bashing shield property.

1d6 + 1 + 1/2 str @ 20/x2 \o/

Since that is not how the rules are set up, quite a moot point. Also, a 2-12 20/x2 weapon is a big simple weapon, not a martial one.

==Aelryinth


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I've brought this to Jason's attention.

So I assume Jason was all, "Nah, screw that, I've gotta go write another adventure with multiple TPK-worthy encounters."

*Is running Hall of Harsh Reflections*


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I've brought this to Jason's attention.

So I assume Jason was all, "Nah, screw that, I've gotta go write another adventure with multiple TPK-worthy encounters."

*Is running Hall of Harsh Reflections*

Quite the Strong Necromancy you have here.

In related news, this is already more covered than an Eskimo in Antartica.

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