Strong Jaw + Wild Shape + Vital Strike =?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

My druid just earned level 8 and gained the ability to change into Huge animals. The Stegosaurus does 4d6 with its tail. Strong Jaw from the APG makes one natural attack damage as if two sizes larger. Vital Strike does one attack at highest BAB and you roll damage twice. So would that be 16d6? The increase in size is confusing me because the base damage dice for most of the dinosaurs is higher than what is listed on the table on page 302 of the bestiary that the Strong Jaw spell references. What do you all think the damage would be?

Dark Archive

PFSRD wrote:

Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

A 4d6 tail attack would increase to 8d6 under the influence of strong jaw. Your Vital Strike would deal 16d6 dice of damage. It's that simple.

Liberty's Edge

Garden Tool wrote:
PFSRD wrote:

Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

A 4d6 tail attack would increase to 8d6 under the influence of strong jaw. Your Vital Strike would deal 16d6 dice of damage. It's that simple.

Thank you for the reply. How would you handle a critical for this? Is the damage from Vital Strike included for 32d6 on a crit or just the original 8d6 for a total of 24d6?


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
obadiah wrote:
Garden Tool wrote:
PFSRD wrote:

Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

A 4d6 tail attack would increase to 8d6 under the influence of strong jaw. Your Vital Strike would deal 16d6 dice of damage. It's that simple.
Thank you for the reply. How would you handle a critical for this? Is the damage from Vital Strike included for 32d6 on a crit or just the original 8d6 for a total of 24d6?

Extra DICE of damage are never multiplied. Vital Strike is no exception.

On a crit, it would deal 24d6 damage.


O,o?

16d6 with a tail swipe at 8th level?

*faints*


WHY the monk cannot take natural attack and this is possible?

EDIT: I see that the spell seems good to boost the monk unarmed strike too.. maybe authors didn't want too many size booster increase.

Nevertheless.. seeing the answers on the topic for the INA feat.. it's a little bit strange.


Well, it is a 4th level druid spell, rather than a feat.

Still, does seem a bit....brutal.

Now I want to throw out an Awakened T-Rex Barbarian with the entire Vital Strike tree running around with Strong Jaw from his druid friend. I think it would be something close to 40d6 or so.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And to think that people bashed Vital Strike for being an useless feat ;)


Gorbacz wrote:
And to think that people bashed Vital Strike for being an useless feat ;)

I don't know..ranger and druid combat spells in APG seem a bit unfair to me.. a fighter must choose some maneuver and being stuck with them until a level up, a ranger and a druid have spells granting improved bull rush or free trip attempts that can change day to day..

Moreover, I feel useless nerf (doing the right thing in an elegant manner, BTW) wild shape and then introduce in a splatbook a lot of spells that increase the stats. There is an analogy with the old "bite of" spells, and those were broken to the bone because increases stats up to the wazoo and stacked with WS.

I see that those increases are far less dramatical, but nevertheless I feel, somewhat, a disparity when I see these things.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mind you, it's not that dramatic. A lvl 8 druid with total Str of 18 (including beast shape bonus) would take a single attack at +10 to hit and scoring 16d6+6 damage, which would be around the level of an optimized Fighter full attacking.


Kaiyanwang wrote:

WHY the monk cannot take natural attack and this is possible?

EDIT: I see that the spell seems good to boost the monk unarmed strike too.. maybe authors didn't want too many size booster increase.

*Looks up, serenely sitting in the lotus position* Patience, my brother. Our day will come.


Gorbacz wrote:
Mind you, it's not that dramatic. A lvl 8 druid with total Str of 18 (including beast shape bonus) would take a single attack at +10 to hit and scoring 16d6+6 damage, which would be around the level of an optimized Fighter full attacking.

Sorry but.. a druid is a full caster and has an animal companion. If you are fine with your last sentence... in my opinion, following this way, designers will crush every balance they reached with core.

Me'mori: I actually LIKE the PF monk. I'm running a livl 12 homebrew adventure and rocks in his own things. But I'm concerned because I REALLY love this game, I consider the core book being pure gold and even if in the APG there is MORE gold, I fear some things can mess the game up if not checked.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Mind you, it's not that dramatic. A lvl 8 druid with total Str of 18 (including beast shape bonus) would take a single attack at +10 to hit and scoring 16d6+6 damage, which would be around the level of an optimized Fighter full attacking.

Sorry but.. a druid is a full caster and has an animal companion. If you are fine with your last sentence... in my opinion, following this way, designers will crush every balance they reached with core.

Me'mori: I actually LIKE the PF monk. I'm running a livl 12 homebrew adventure and rocks in his own things. But I'm concerned because I REALLY love this game, I consider the core book being pure gold and even if in the APG there is MORE gold, I fear some things can mess the game up if not checked.

... and at higher levels, the druid will do 16d6+something with one attack, while a Fighter will two-shot Balors, without any outside spell buffs. The only issue I see with that spell is that it's one level too low, else is fine.


Gorbacz wrote:


... and at higher levels, the druid will do 16d6+something with one attack, while a Fighter will two-shot Balors, without any outside spell buffs. The only issue I see with that spell is that it's one level too low, else is fine.

Balors have several tricks in their sleeve - mere damage is not enough. But I see your point: PF druid is a war machine in middle level, then falls back.

But for then, it has 8th-9th level spells. I'm not sure if on the long road, this can lead to troubles. Moreover, I'm concerned by the stacking of buffs and free maneuvers.

If I see a druid gaining Combat Maneuvers and increase the size of his weapons by a spell, and in the same time I see a fighter stuck with his feats, the number of maneuvers increased by the splabook, and the INA for monk stated as a no-no, i feel a certain disparity of treatment.


The Black Bard wrote:

Well, it is a 4th level druid spell, rather than a feat.

Still, does seem a bit....brutal.

Now I want to throw out an Awakened T-Rex Barbarian with the entire Vital Strike tree running around with Strong Jaw from his druid friend. I think it would be something close to 40d6 or so.

Depends on how you read "Double the amount of damage dealt by each natural attack."

I could be 4d6 to 8d6 to 16d6 to 24d6 for avg. 84

or it could be 4d6 to 8d6 to 16d6 times two for avg. 112.


or you can combine animal growth, Strong Jaw and Vital Strike on druid's animal companion and we got yet another damage monster.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

yukarjama wrote:
or you can combine animal growth, Strong Jaw and Vital Strike on druid's animal companion and we got yet another damage monster.

Eh... wizard casts Haste. Bad guys die. Same story.


Gorbacz wrote:
Mind you, it's not that dramatic. A lvl 8 druid with total Str of 18 (including beast shape bonus) would take a single attack at +10 to hit and scoring 16d6+6 damage, which would be around the level of an optimized Fighter full attacking.

I am currently playing a level 9 druid in a high magic campagne, I can do a grand total of 16d8+15 in my huge Hippo form with strongjaw and vital strike. My strengt bonus is 11 in this shape and since the hippo has only one attack i get to multiply the bonus by 1,5 :D

24d8+30 if I crit (correct me if I am wrong)

starting strenght 20 + 2 ability increases + 4 from my belt + 6 from my huge wildshape= 32 strenght

Augmented summoning is wasted on this character :p

Shadow Lodge

We faced a similar situation of buffoonery in our Rise of the Runelords campaign. My cleric, in a fit of craziness, summoned a celestial tyrannosaurus to wreck havoc. Then the druid cast Animal Growth and Strong Jaw on the thing resulting in a bite attack the size of 6d8+30. Then it did what all heavenly gozilla pups do once they grow up, smote evil and flew to face another big lizard.

After biting the thing in half with two bites, it swallowed the energy-breathing fellow and promptly returned back to Elysium.

The gm asked us to never do it again. The druid's player was in stitches.


What's fun to do with Strong Jaw is to combine it with an augmented Beaststrike club + Enlarge Person + Lead Blade + Improved Natural Attack (claw). The 1d6 club is now dealing 6d6 damage as a simple light weapon. Combine with some extra natural attacks (gore, bite, slam, rake, whatever you can get), maybe some extra limbs to hold more clubs. Don't forget your Amulet of Mighty Fists (Holy). Get Pounce + Rhino Hide armor if you can swing it. Oh, and they're all primary natural attacks and only take a -2 penalty with the Multiattack feat.

:)


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A level 8 druid cannot have taken vital strike.

At level 9, though, a Ranger 2/Saurian Shaman 7 can turn into a Stegosaurus and cast Strong Jaw to do 24D6 damage dice on a vital strike, or 36D6 on a crit.

Ranger 2 is for Improved Natural Attack (Tail). This is even legal in PFS, since Improved Natural Attack is allowed when it's specifically granted by another legal source (like the ranger's natural combat style), and since you don't need to meet the prereqs for ranger bonus feats.

In non-PFS, it's even better: you can be a half-orc with a natural bite and take Improved Natural Attack (Bite) without ranger, and you'll benefit from it in Giant Hippo form. Druid 8/Barb1 and you're doing the same 24D6 damage. Keep going in Barb (Brutal Pugilist) at least up to level 6, take Powerful Shape and the grappling feats and you'll also hitting with a very nice grapple check every time you bite. (and of course, keep taking the vital strike chain - Improved VS @lvl 13 for 36D6 damage and Greater VS @lvl18 for 48D6).

And since you'll have Greater Grapple, you'll not only do that first hit for up to 48D6+addons, but you can use a move action to do another 12D6+addons by maintaining the grapple (or just pin the enemy to make it easier for your allies to kill).


Ravingdork wrote:

Extra DICE of damage are never multiplied. Vital Strike is no exception.

On a crit, it would deal 24d6 damage.

This is correct, Vital Strike even has this reminder text written into the feat.

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