Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as baseline?


Homebrew and House Rules

Liberty's Edge

I've been toying with Rogues a lot lately, and it has occured to me that there is really no logical reason to have to spend two feats on something that is honestly a core concept of combat.

My proposition is this: When calculating CMD or Attack bonuses while using a weapon that is "Finesseable" you use the higher of your Strength or Dexterity.

Feats are a precious commodity, and to essentially force certain classes into giving up two of them to what are pretty close to neccessary feats seems like a poor design flaw to me.


I would give the rogue the same ability as the monk if I changed anything. Giving the rogues two free feats is powerful and detracts from Str-based rogues, which is a viable option. I've built around 50 rogues of various types and it is not difficult to build one that doesn't use Weapon Finesse.


VikingIrishman wrote:
Feats are a precious commodity, and to essentially force certain classes into giving up two of them to what are pretty close to neccessary feats seems like a poor design flaw to me.

This is why Finesse Rogue was included as a Rogue Talent, and why the +1 BAB requirement was removed from the feat. You've got 20 opportunities as a Rogue to pick up Weapon Finesse if you need it.


The issue is that your consolidating Reflex saves, AC bonus, and now attack bonus or maneuver bonus into one stat. that has to be a feat. now if they could be the same feat is up for debate that would be a difficult debate.

Dark Archive

The OP is correct in his opinion that making these feat automatic functionss of combat should be the rule because it doesn't hurt game balance and only punishes Dex-based fighters.

The argument over AC isn't particularly relevant since Str based fighters can have equally good AC by taking heavier armor.

Speaking of attributes from a point buy perspective if we're discussing balance, one is sacrificing a damage bonus from Strength by putting points into Dex instead and gaining a better reflex save (though a worse defense against grapple).

Liberty's Edge

Dex is already the best stat in the game. There's no reason to make it better for free. Would allow you allow strength to be usable in place of dex when calculating AC?

Heavy Armor alone does not give one good AC. You need some dex to have a meaningfully high armor class.

It's more than just a better reflex. You're also getting Initiative, bonuses to a pile of skills (more than strength), ranged attack bonus, and touch AC.


Sigard, heavier armor slows you down.

That said, I have done the same thing in my groups and there have been absolutely no problems.


As to the Agile Maneuvers and Weapon finesse issue...why would anyone take Agile Maneuvers? Who out there is a dex based character NOT wielding a weapon?Usually, there is no downside to having a trip or disarm weapon in your off hand, so long as you don't use it in conjunction with a primary hand attack, right?

Dark Archive

galahad2112 wrote:
As to the Agile Maneuvers and Weapon finesse issue...why would anyone take Agile Maneuvers? Who out there is a dex based character NOT wielding a weapon?Usually, there is no downside to having a trip or disarm weapon in your off hand, so long as you don't use it in conjunction with a primary hand attack, right?

You don't even need a trip or disarm weapon to trip or disarm.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In my games, Finesse is a weapon quality that lets you use Dex to hit. The feat Weapon Finesse allows you to add your Intelligence modifier as a bonus to damage, and to use your Dexterity for CMB.


Remember to get a weapon +1 ability called Agile. It's from the Pathfinders Field Manual, let's you add Dex to dmg with the weapon.

Or see if your gm would let you have it as a feat, they made Improved Crit into a weapon ability, so why not the other way around?

Also remember, skill penalty from shields adds to a finessed weapon attack roll, but a mw buckler works fine, letting you add ac from enhancement bonuses.


Ramza, that's horrible logic :-\


It is likely not a game breaker, but it does mess with balance. There is a network of reasons why they chose weapon finess the feat and did not give it to rogues. In 3.5 there was "Intuitive Attack" that lets you use wisdom as opposed to STR do we let all do we just give this to all wis based classes and assume they all get divine insite in battle?


Cheapy wrote:
Ramza, that's horrible logic :-\

Maybe, but by the time our Rogue had spent time on getting Finesse, Agile, and Agile Maneuvers feats, our fighter had Power Attack and we all forgot that the +3 dmg from Dex was there on our rogue.

Did I mention that one feat outdid three that as a side-effect, made the rogue as useful in combat as a limp hotdog if he didn't have his tiny blade on him?

My logic might be terrible, but when there's items that give cleave or bow proficency or crit or finesse, we don't fuss too much at table on reverse-engineering something that could pass for a feat for a tiny, situational benefit.

Then again, not a real big fan on the school of thought that 2h+power attack should exclusively rule in the damage departement.

Mergy wrote:
You don't even need a trip or disarm weapon to trip or disarm.

You need a finesse weapon that is actively used in a maneuver to benefit from dex-to-hit and bypassing the Agile Maneuvers. A dagger would only add dex-to-hit on Sunder/disarm, but not trip or steal.

Dark Archive

Feral wrote:

Dex is already the best stat in the game. There's no reason to make it better for free. Would allow you allow strength to be usable in place of dex when calculating AC?

Heavy Armor alone does not give one good AC. You need some dex to have a meaningfully high armor class.

It's more than just a better reflex. You're also getting Initiative, bonuses to a pile of skills (more than strength), ranged attack bonus, and touch AC.

Not true that Dex is necessary for a high AC.

If you look at the ACs that armors provide and their Max Dex Bonus, most add up to to a +8 AC, combining the armor and Dex.

The notable exception is full plate which gives a +9 WITHOUT any dex bonus (it also lets you add +1 Dex bonus), meaning if your Dex is higher than 12 it's wasted. So heavy armor does give the best AC in the game WITHOUT any Dex.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
Feral wrote:

Dex is already the best stat in the game. There's no reason to make it better for free. Would allow you allow strength to be usable in place of dex when calculating AC?

Heavy Armor alone does not give one good AC. You need some dex to have a meaningfully high armor class.

It's more than just a better reflex. You're also getting Initiative, bonuses to a pile of skills (more than strength), ranged attack bonus, and touch AC.

Not true that Dex is necessary for a high AC.

If you look at the ACs that armors provide and their Max Dex Bonus, most add up to to a +8 AC, combining the armor and Dex.

The notable exception is full plate which gives a +9 WITHOUT any dex bonus (it also lets you add +1 Dex bonus), meaning if your Dex is higher than 12 it's wasted. So heavy armor does give the best AC in the game WITHOUT any Dex.

Well aside from the fact that 12 is not 'without any dex' I believe he was refering to using things like mithral or fighter armor training in conjunction with heavy armor.

That said, many classes, specifically the rogue (which the op mentioned) dont get heavy armor from the start. So they have to, spend feats to get that heavy armor bonus you are talking about. So if strength based rogues have to spend two feats to get heavy armor, why shouldnt dex based rogues have to spend feats to get dex to attack and manuevers?

Dark Archive

Gnomezrule wrote:
It is likely not a game breaker, but it does mess with balance. There is a network of reasons why they chose weapon finess the feat and did not give it to rogues. In 3.5 there was "Intuitive Attack" that lets you use wisdom as opposed to STR do we let all do we just give this to all wis based classes and assume they all get divine insite in battle?

I don't believe that logic applies.

While Weapon Finesse and Agile Mnvrs should be automatic options, not Feats, because they represent natural behaviors, using Wisdom for damage sounds more supernatural.

For example, it's silly to think a Dextrous person need special training to not rely on brute strength to fight, such as trying to club someone with a rapier with which that character is proficient. No, that Dextrous person would naturally rely on his/her agility.

As it is, I'd say non-Light Finesse weapons would require Dexterity be used, not Strength, and let the weapon the determine the proper attribute to be used (and add all flexible weapons to that list since using those are a function of coordination).

But basically, I believe Str should rightfully stay the stat that determines damage. WP Finesse for free doesn't mess with balance how most think it does; however, using a different stat for damage should require a Feat because that would.

Dark Archive

Kolokotroni wrote:
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
Feral wrote:

Dex is already the best stat in the game. There's no reason to make it better for free. Would allow you allow strength to be usable in place of dex when calculating AC?

Heavy Armor alone does not give one good AC. You need some dex to have a meaningfully high armor class.

It's more than just a better reflex. You're also getting Initiative, bonuses to a pile of skills (more than strength), ranged attack bonus, and touch AC.

Not true that Dex is necessary for a high AC.

If you look at the ACs that armors provide and their Max Dex Bonus, most add up to to a +8 AC, combining the armor and Dex.

The notable exception is full plate which gives a +9 WITHOUT any dex bonus (it also lets you add +1 Dex bonus), meaning if your Dex is higher than 12 it's wasted. So heavy armor does give the best AC in the game WITHOUT any Dex.

Well aside from the fact that 12 is not 'without any dex' I believe he was refering to using things like mithral or fighter armor training in conjunction with heavy armor.

That said, many classes, specifically the rogue (which the op mentioned) dont get heavy armor from the start. So they have to, spend feats to get that heavy armor bonus you are talking about. So if strength based rogues have to spend two feats to get heavy armor, why shouldnt dex based rogues have to spend feats to get dex to attack and manuevers?

That's because Rogue's don't start with proficiency in Heavy Armor. They're also losing several abilities (evasion, tumble) by wearing heavy armor so it's foolish (my OP). However, most importantly it's because people can actually use their agility because they're born with it. They're not born with heavy armor. Likewise, that's why there are weapon proficiencies.

I'm not sure why you're pointing out a Dex of 12 is not without any Dex bonus. Without Dex, full plate gives the highest AC of standard armors (+9). If you add 1 point of Dex, it's 2 higher than the highest standard armor. A Strength-based guy can still do without any Dex, and depending on the class, may eventually be able to move at full speed in it (heavy armor). That's not to say having a little bonus in every stat isn't a good thing.

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