Holy Champion ends smite?


Rules Questions


11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Paladin capstone, pg. 63 wrote:


Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a
conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/
evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes
an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment,
using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon
and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the
subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage
from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In
addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses
lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum
possible amount.

Does that mean when a paladin smites an evil outsider at level 20, when he hits, the smite immediately ends no matter the result of the banishment?

What if a paladin is... fighting a pit fiend in hell. The paladin smites the pit fiend, hits him, the banishment fails since a) The paladin isn't in his home plane and b) the pit fiend is already in his home plane. Nothing happens. Does the smite end?

If so, I think this capstone is really crummy. Why does it wreck your primary class ability on one type of creature? What if I want to kill the demon so that it can't reform for 100 years instead of giving it a free ticket home?

EDIT:
An example of what other capstones would be like if they were like Holy Champion:

Barbarian wrote:


Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a barbarian enters
rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution
increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves
increases to +4. In addition, whenever a barbarian hits
an animal, magical beast or humanoid while raging, that
creature must immediately save or die (DC = 10+ the bar-
barian's level). After this effect and the damage is re-
solved, the barbarian immediately ends rage and
becomes exhausted.
Bard wrote:


Deadly Performance (Su): A bard of 20th level or higher
can use his performance to cause one enemy to die from
joy or sorrow... If the target of his deadly performance
is of the fey, outsider or extraplanar type or subtype,
they must make an additional save or be given a free
teleport back to the plane of their choice in addition to
200 gold pieces. Once this effect and the save or death
is resolved, the bard immediately deafens himself and falls
prone. The act of falling prone provokes attacks of opportunity.

Dark Archive

Personally i'd house-rule it and say they can banish, but arent required to.

Sovereign Court

Seeing as Banishment acts on creatures 'on your home plane', the effect wouldn't trigger at all and so the smite wouldn't end. Be more worried about the evil blighters banishing you from their realm when they feast on your squishy rogue pal :D

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ice Titan wrote:

Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a

conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/
evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes
an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment,
using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon
and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the
subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage
from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In
addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses
lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum
possible amount.

I agree that the wording could be a little clearer on this one. If it read "after a banishment effect is successfully resolved" then it would make sense for at 20th level ability. Every time you hit an evil outsider it is subject to a banishment effect (which allows a will save and spell resistance). As soon as you successfully banish the creature, your smite against that creature ends (because you've defeated it).

Having the smite end after one hit doesn't make much sense for that high level of an ability. I would assume it is a typo/missed editing fix.


Hmm that's a pretty big discrepency for a capstone and such an important ability. Hopefully Jason or the like will make some type of comment on that. I'd hate to have my smite end if the banishment didn't work.


That's a big discrepency for such an important ability and capstone. Hopefully Jason or equivelant will rule on this. I know I'd hate to have my smite end if my banishment didn't work, especially vs. a pit fiend or something.


I'd just make using banishment optional, I'd still have it end if you choose to use it though.


I think it should be voluntary also, I also think there should be a HD limit. If the BBEG is balor lord, and he gets sent home on round 1 it would be very anti-climatic.

The Exchange

It'd be a bit crappy to put an HD limit on a 20th level class feature.

Dark Archive

doent it work like the bansihment spell?

A banishment spell is a more powerful version of the dismissal spell. It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished.

and

using her paladin level as the caster level

so it has a 40hd limit at level 20


As long as the attempt ends the smite I don't care much a caster at this level can do the same, if you don't want that have it cast dimensional lock in the area, makes the battle more interesting.


Name Violation wrote:

doent it work like the bansihment spell?

A banishment spell is a more powerful version of the dismissal spell. It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished.

and

using her paladin level as the caster level

so it has a 40hd limit at level 20

Good catch.


Personally, I think the paladin should get a different capstone ability, after all, if I am a paladin I'd rather kill it than send it away, anyways. Besides, any creature you can't kill easily at 20th level that you can banish can usually come back without much difficulty.


I certainly agree with the posters here. At a minimum, the smite shouldn't end unless the banishment is successful.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I would really like to get an official ruling on this. If it is that it ends smite if it's not successful my pally will take a level of Holy Vindicator along the way so that he retires at Paladin 19 / Holy Vindicator 1

Dark Archive

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I would really like to get an official ruling on this. If it is that it ends smite if it's not successful my pally will take a level of Holy Vindicator along the way so that he retires at Paladin 19 / Holy Vindicator 1

we need to hit the faq button


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So, I was looking a the Paladin and was wondering the same thing as the OP. I know this is an old thread but was there any FAQ on this?


You can house rule this so the smite doesn't end, or you can take the paladin abilities as written. Smite evil says it doesn't end until either the paladin who used the smite rests, or you/the target dies. Thus, smite evil and the wording in the level 20 paladin ability contradict one another.

Because of what smite evil says about it's duration, I believe it was worded this way from keeping paladin smites on things that were banished, but not killed. If the paladin finds a way to gain the benefits of resting without resting, that means the smite on the target he smites lasts literally forever until either the paladin or his target dies.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That makes sense.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Holy Champion ends smite? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.