Advanced Player's Guide and Pathfinder Society


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Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

How long after the release of the Advanced Player's Guide will the contents be available for Pathfinder Society. I have a LOT of Pathfinder Society players that would love to use the options in this book, based off of previews alone.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

I don't envy Jason the task of sorting the APG and deciding what is legal, waht is legal with tweaks (iE the Brew Potion Feat for Alchemists) and what is not legal.

The Exchange

Or Josh even :)


Or Jimmy.


Or Bill.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Or Jane?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Or Cosmo ?


Or else!

....wait... what?

Grand Lodge

Smurf

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

Hey Mr. Frost... was that an avoidance of the question? ;P

In all seriousness, is this book going to be legal for play at GenCon, soon after, six months down the road...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that using words "APG", "validity", "PFS", "check", "before" and "GenCon" in one sentence triggers a fight or flight response from Josh...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arnim Thayer wrote:
In all seriousness, is this book going to be legal for play at GenCon, soon after, six months down the road...

In all seriousness it seems like a tad much to ask for to have PFS GMs ingest a complete new rules expansion on almost no notice.

Grand Lodge

Since there will be 4 pregens built on APG rules, Part of the book will be legal, as for alternative builds, wait and see. Josh just got back into the country a couple of days ago and I'm sure that everyone is focused mostly of getting ready to get to Indy.

As it stands most if not all of the GMs at Gen Con will not be ready for the entire book anyways.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Zizazat wrote:
Arnim Thayer wrote:
In all seriousness, is this book going to be legal for play at GenCon, soon after, six months down the road...
In all seriousness it seems like a tad much to ask for to have PFS GMs ingest a complete new rules expansion on almost no notice.

Why not? We did it last year with the Pathfinder Rulebook, and that is a much thicker book!

Grand Lodge

Dragnmoon wrote:
Zizazat wrote:
Arnim Thayer wrote:
In all seriousness, is this book going to be legal for play at GenCon, soon after, six months down the road...
In all seriousness it seems like a tad much to ask for to have PFS GMs ingest a complete new rules expansion on almost no notice.
Why not? We did it last year with the Pathfinder Rulebook, and that is a much thicker book!

You have a point, but we also had a lot of the playtest documents.

But here is ther real kicker. Allowing something in and then taking it away is problematic. There might be some spells and/or alterantive class abilities that don't work.

But I all so don't know what's been cleared prior to print so who knows.

Long and short of it is, I doubt that you can rush this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Herald wrote:

But I all so don't know what's been cleared prior to print so who knows.

Long and short of it is, I doubt that you can rush this.

Another way to put it is, rushing this could prove detrimental to the play experience.

Grand Lodge

Of course, regardless of the decisions as to what will be allowed/verboten, many of the GM's will not have access to the APG until well into GenCon.

I run 3 slots Thursday, and will be unable to get my hardcopy prior to those sessions. And there is no way that I will have time to read/digest the pdf prior to my packing & travel to Indy. I suspect many of the 8+ slot GM's will be in the same boat.

Not a complaint about availability, just a comment on the practicality of including everything from a brand new sourcebook.

Good thing I just make it up as I go along anyway ;)

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, New Hampshire—Merrimack

I know I'm trying to hold off on leveling up my barbarian to see if there are new rage powers that are not just cool, buy also Legal for play.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Scribbling Rambler wrote:
I run 3 slots Thursday, and will be unable to get my hardcopy prior to those sessions. And there is no way that I will have time to read/digest the pdf prior to my packing & travel to Indy. I suspect many of the 8+ slot GM's will be in the same boat.

I am not an 8 slot GM, but I am 99% certain that my entire 11 hour car ride will be spent reading through the APG PDF. I'd bank money on it. I am also 99% certain that I'll be barely prepared to work with the rules, since it takes me a good dozen readings to get to the point I'm comfortable arbitrating non-arbitrarily.

Sovereign Court

Scribbling Rambler wrote:


I run 3 slots Thursday, and will be unable to get my hardcopy prior to those sessions. And there is no way that I will have time to read/digest the pdf prior to my packing & travel to Indy. I suspect many of the 8+ slot GM's will be in the same boat.

Maybe Josh or Con Organizer can work out a deal with the Paizo booth at Gencon to help the thursday judges get their books. If not I'll happily lend my copy to any Judges who want to look through it.

I too am waiting to level my Barbarian to 6th level I'm sure there are some fun rage powers.

If the Fates and Gods of Time are kind to Josh he'll have finished looking at the APG from internal sources and already has a good idea what will and wont work for the Society and begin compiling documentation to be released at the same time as the book (or maybe a few days before so travelers can print it out).

I'm sure he is working on it but I imagine a lot of other things have to get done as well in time for Gencon and for the org play craziness that Gencon is known for.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Most likely scenario is that PFS will continue to run off of the published APG beta material until a new FAQ or Campaign Guideline is published announcing the switchover to the Release book.

5/5

As long as it's not included in the core assumption, I'll be happy. Players will have to bring their own copies.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Most likely scenario is that PFS will continue to run off of the published APG beta material until a new FAQ or Campaign Guideline is published announcing the switchover to the Release book.

This

Plus...

If any GMs running the AM or Midday PFS slots want a copy of the APG on day 1, I'm more than happy to make a run to the booth for them for pickup. It would need to be early though as I do have a 1:15 True Dungeon event.

Dark Archive 3/5

Majuba wrote:
As long as it's not included in the core assumption, I'll be happy. Players will have to bring their own copies.

Not making it part of the Core right away would solve any problems with it's release and/or portions of it being legal at GenCon. Players would have to bring their own books and if the GM wants confirmation on a rule he can request it.

That said, keep in mind how much this also complicates things for players like myself who are using stuff from the APG Beta that suddenly need to convert...

Then again I'm not going to GenCon, so =D

Grand Lodge

bdk86 wrote:


Not making it part of the Core right away would solve any problems with it's release and/or portions of it being legal at GenCon. Players would have to bring their own books and if the GM wants confirmation on a rule he can request it.

Honestly, this is pretty much how I ran the shiny new PFRPG rules last year... quick skim to see differences from Beta, then allowed players to correct me. Unfortunately, I think there is actually more in the APG which has not been in open playtest yet (eg archetypes), so a quick skim is probably insufficient.

Thanks for the offers to grab a copy. However, the 8 am slots will still have to do without. I am also not sure when we will be allowed to get our copies, possibly (and logically) not until after we have run the sessions. Finally, I think that the Paizo booth may be busier than some of you expect :)

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Scribbling Rambler wrote:
Thanks for the offers to grab a copy. However, the 8 am slots will still have to do without. I am also not sure when we will be allowed to get our copies, possibly (and logically) not until after we have run the sessions. Finally, I think that the Paizo booth may be busier than some of you expect :)

I didn't think it would save the 8:00 AM people; I did think it would save those who were both 8 and 1 people.

And I know exactly what to expect at the Paizo booth; I was there last year (about 10th in line). For those of you have not been though, try to find the video on the blog that was the fire hazard that the Paizo booth became within 5 minutes of the doors opening.

Grand Lodge

An awesome offer on your part, Mr Slanky.

Obviously, you've got pretty good "con-legs" to get in there that early :)


As a 10-slotter for Gen Con, I'd love ANY help picking up my APG on Thursday. Heck, I may need help spending my voucher!

Maybe Josh could arrange it so we can pick up our APG's on Wednesday night at the double top secret meet and greet?

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:

As a 10-slotter for Gen Con, I'd love ANY help picking up my APG on Thursday. Heck, I may need help spending my voucher!

Maybe Josh could arrange it so we can pick up our APG's on Wednesday night at the double top secret meet and greet?

How about this as a question for Josh. Is there any way that those who have subscriptions to pick up who are GMing tons and are slated for both 8:00 and 1:00 on thursday could have a one of the volunteer runners pick up their goods?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

Not trying to start anything; just curious.

I have a group of newbies clamoring for the APG... and holding off on PFS until it's "legal". This puts a strain on the owners of several FLGS owners who WANT to have the book on the shelves and WANT it to sell, but are afraid that if they don't order it in quantity, will find it unavailable if they wait... much like the Core book became last year.

As to Mr. Frost and company, I'm sure that they have had at least some amount of time to look through the book while it was still in editing, especially knowing how important this book would be for organized play AND wanting to prevent the same problems inherent with the 3.5/PF switch (i.e. lack of available books).

Note that I am not saying anything bad about Paizo; I love Pathfinder and the organized play. But I also know this is still a young company (from the role-playing publisher role) that has experienced some major changes and growth in just this one year. And I know that those at Paizo have learned quite a lot in that year.

so it is not completely inconceivable that they are already prepared with v3.1 of the Society Handbook prior to GenCon. Thus my original question.


MisterSlanky wrote:
And I know exactly what to expect at the Paizo booth; I was there last year (about 10th in line).

Last year I had the VIG package and got to be there an hour early... After watching the line form, I couldn't have been happier. :D

Dark Archive

Kyle Baird wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
And I know exactly what to expect at the Paizo booth; I was there last year (about 10th in line).
Last year I had the VIG package and got to be there an hour early... After watching the line form, I couldn't have been happier. :D

VIG package = Very Important Goblin package??? Nice...

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:

As a 10-slotter for Gen Con, I'd love ANY help picking up my APG on Thursday. Heck, I may need help spending my voucher!

Maybe Josh could arrange it so we can pick up our APG's on Wednesday night at the double top secret meet and greet?

That would be most helpful!


If you're a Tier 1 GM, I'll have your APG at HQ.

If you're not a Tier 1 GM, the line forms at 10 AM on Thursday in booth 2302. ;-)

Grand Lodge

Awesome!! I hoped that would be the case.

It will give me a +2 circumstance bonus on my Bluff check to act knowledgeable!

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Joshua J. Frost wrote:

If you're a Tier 1 GM, I'll have your APG at HQ.

If you're not a Tier 1 GM, the line forms at 10 AM on Thursday in booth 2302. ;-)

Woohoo!

I had forgotten about that benefit!

Since I'm a subscriber that that mean I will end up with 2 APGs? (not complaining I have lots of friends i need gifts for).


miniaturepeddler wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:

If you're a Tier 1 GM, I'll have your APG at HQ.

If you're not a Tier 1 GM, the line forms at 10 AM on Thursday in booth 2302. ;-)

Woohoo!

I had forgotten about that benefit!

Since I'm a subscriber that that mean I will end up with 2 APGs? (not complaining I have lots of friends i need gifts for).

If you want to end up with two, then yes.

Grand Lodge

That's awsome!


Joshua J. Frost wrote:

If you're a Tier 1 GM, I'll have your APG at HQ.

If you're not a Tier 1 GM, the line forms at 10 AM on Thursday in booth 2302. ;-)

HUZZAH!

Grand Lodge Venture-Agent, Texas—Mansfield aka sieylianna

The Pathfinder Society rules (version 2.2) say the following regarding the APG, "You will be forced to re-create any characters of the above classes using the official class rules once the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is released".

When will the rules for bringing characters inline with the APG be released and how long do players have before they must have enacted the changes? I have a third level Oracle and it appears that the character concept was left hopelessly out in the weeds by the lack of additional mysteries in the APG.

The playtest document says that "The following mysteries are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPGA Advanced Players Guide", but according to the preview, Life is the only new mystery. I think that is misleading and I never would have created an Oracle that didn't fit one of the playtest mysteries if I realized there weren't going to be a broad range of mysteruies for the uncovered portfolios (Shelyn - Beauty/Love - etc).

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
sieylianna wrote:

The Pathfinder Society rules (version 2.2) say the following regarding the APG, "You will be forced to re-create any characters of the above classes using the official class rules once the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is released".

When will the rules for bringing characters inline with the APG be released and how long do players have before they must have enacted the changes? I have a third level Oracle and it appears that the character concept was left hopelessly out in the weeds by the lack of additional mysteries in the APG.

The playtest document says that "The following mysteries are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPGA Advanced Players Guide", but according to the preview, Life is the only new mystery. I think that is misleading and I never would have created an Oracle that didn't fit one of the playtest mysteries if I realized there weren't going to be a broad range of mysteruies for the uncovered portfolios (Shelyn - Beauty/Love - etc).

In general our characters must be up-to-date during our first play session after the 5th of August (the "official" release date of the APG).

Yes, that means if you're playing at Gen Con, you'll get the joy of updating your character in the hours between buying the guide and playing the game.

As an added note, Josh has clarified that we're allowed to make "updates" to our characters, not full blown rebuilds. So even if we did have an awesome mystery that fit your concept better, you would not be allowed to change mysteries, only update what you have to fit the new rules. He clarified on that here.

P.S. - I'm not sure why you thought that beauty and love would be mysteries. Those are specific subsets of Shelyn's sphere or influence, mysteries are the exact opposite - ideas that transcend a specific god.


MisterSlanky wrote:
P.S. - I'm not sure why you thought that beauty and love would be mysteries. Those are specific subsets of Shelyn's sphere or influence, mysteries are the exact opposite - ideas that transcend a specific god.

I assume that the OP meant a Mystery specifically linked with the Charm domain, which is shared between five gods/goddesses in the setting, one of which is Shelyn.

Shadow Lodge

Chris Kenney wrote:
I assume that the OP meant a Mystery specifically linked with the Charm domain, which is shared between five gods/goddesses in the setting, one of which is Shelyn.

None of the existing mysteries are tied to specific domains now, so it wouldn't make sense to have new mysteries that are that limited...

I'm more curious as to why one would create an oracle in the first place if none of the existing mysteries fit the character concept?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
ArVagor wrote:
I'm more curious as to why one would create an oracle in the first place if none of the existing mysteries fit the character concept?

Cult of the New? :)

Sovereign Court

MisterSlanky wrote:


As an added note, Josh has clarified that we're allowed to make "updates" to our characters, not full blown rebuilds. So even if we did have an awesome mystery that fit your concept better, you would not be allowed to change mysteries, only update what you have to fit the new rules. He clarified on that here.

In the same thread he says you will be able to rebuild APG classes. What he means (I believe) is you can't take a new option for your Ranger or Fighter that comes out in the APG if you are past the level where you would make the choice to take the option, but APG classes will require complete rebuilds to be legal and to deal with issues arising from reworded, eliminated, etc. class features. Now whether you should take your character who has existed in the living campaign in a completely new direction is your choice, but should be frowned upon.

Shadow Lodge

Just for reference, here is the thread where Josh talks about rebuilding. The impression I get is that rebuilds should be minor in nature to reflect the actual impacts of changes in the APG without significantly changing the character.

So for example a summoner won't be using her summon monster Spell Like near as often and might want to retrain augment summoning and spell focus conjuration since that (existing) class ability is being altered drastically and the feats relate directly to that.

My impression is that the rebuild would be to accommodate impacts that the APG has on an existing character build though. Changing character class because a class feature you wanted failed to appear seems a bit of a radical change and outside the scope of a simple rebuild to me.

I'm not the mouthpiece for PFS though. I'm certain the guide will be a little more clear than the 2-3 posts Josh has put up on the subject.

Grand Lodge Venture-Agent, Texas—Mansfield aka sieylianna

ArVagor wrote:
I'm more curious as to why one would create an oracle in the first place if none of the existing mysteries fit the character concept?

I like the idea of the Oracle class where you worship a concept rather than a specific god. Although Pathfinder is not as bad as some other systems, many campaigns have multiple gods with the same portfolios for different races. The Forgotten Realms is a perfect example.

I looked at it less as focused on the Charm domain than as a someone who embodied the Love/Beauty aspects of Shelyn and to a lesser extent, Calistria and Desna. Wind didn't fit at all. Heavens and Nature were a bit closer, but still not what I was looking for. I was hoping that the final APG would have a mystery that was more along the lines of what I sought. The PFS rules specifically said that playtest charcters would need to be brought in line with the final APG, so it looked like there was flexibility, if a better fit came along.

It's possible that Life might work, as the physical perfection of form, but I won't know that until I get my copy.

Dark Archive 3/5

sieylianna wrote:


I like the idea of the Oracle class where you worship a concept rather than a specific god.

I can definitely see the appeal in this way. Something you may want to look at are the upcoming 'sub-domains' that should be part of the APG which may give powers slightly more in line with the concept you're aiming for (Beauty or Love or something close might be subdomain'd off of Charm?)

The idea the final version of the class won't be something that fits your concept very well is frustrating. I'm playing a Summoner and honestly am on the edge of my seat to find out just how my mechanics will change and if I still want the class over, say, a Wizard specializing in conjuration.
However, this is also the risk of play testing and they said the material could (and would!) change regularly.

EDIT: There was a / in the quote setup that shouldn't have been there and kept the quote from showing. It has been banished. Carry on.


ArVagor wrote:
None of the existing mysteries are tied to specific domains now, so it wouldn't make sense to have new mysteries that are that limited...

Actually, with the exception of Nature (which appears to have elements of Plant and Animal) and Heavens (which is 'hell if I know') they actually are all pretty clearly tied to a single domain.

Battle = War
Bones = Death
Elemental = Elemental
Life = Healing
Lore = Knowledge

This is both in the theming of the abilities and the deities said Mysteries are tied to. Now, the existence of two Mysteries that don't obviously fit the pattern suggests this was not a hard-and-fast principle, or it was intended to be but abandoned during development as being potentially too narrow. But it still gives a new place to start, and I'm guessing that more Mysteries that didn't make the cut this time are slated to appear in Ultimate Magic.

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