Poison - consecutive saves


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

When it says 2 consecutive saves, does this mean after you fail an initial save, you must save twice in a row to purge it or do the consecutive saves start once you are bit by said poison creature and must make 2 saves from the moment you are bit? I thought if you make the initial save upon injury, you do not need to worry about the consecutive aspect of the poison.


If you make the first save, when you were hit, the poison does not affect you.

Only if you fail that first save do you need to make 2 saves to purge that poison.

If you get hit again while already poisoned and fail the initial save, the save DC increases by 2.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
stuart haffenden wrote:

If you make the first save, when you were hit, the poison does not affect you.

Only if you fail that first save do you need to make 2 saves to purge that poison.

If you get hit again while already poisoned and fail the initial save, the save DC increases by 2.

What section is this in the Core book? I will need to have a reference for the GM. He was having us do 2 saves no matter what.


Shar Tahl wrote:
What section is this in the Core book? I will need to have a reference for the GM. He was having us do 2 saves no matter what.

SRD reference

Dark Archive

The way that I read it is the same as your DM.

For example. if you are hit with Deathblade. You would have to make a save every round for 6 rounds, taking 1d3 con damage each failed save, until you make two good saves (in this case, a fort save over 20). At that time you would have purged the poison from your system.

If you make the first save when you are hit, that just keeps you from taking the damage for that round. You would still need to make one more good save to get rid of it. This is why the 2-save poisons are nasty, and deathblade specially so. Eat 1d3 con damage each round and also try to make 2 good DC 20 fort saves. If you make the first two, you are good. Fail one and there is a good chance that your fort save will go down by 1.

Dark Archive

stuart haffenden wrote:

If you make the first save, when you were hit, the poison does not affect you.

Only if you fail that first save do you need to make 2 saves to purge that poison.

If you get hit again while already poisoned and fail the initial save, the save DC increases by 2.

The thing to remember with that first save. It only acts that way for a poison with an onset:

Here is the wording:

Spoiler:
Onset: Some afflictions have a variable amount of time before they set in. Creatures that come in contact with an affliction with an onset time must make a saving throw immediately. Success means that the affliction is avoided and no further saving throws must be made. Failure means that the creature has contracted the affliction and must begin making additional saves after the onset period has elapsed. The affliction's effect does not occur until after the onset period has elapsed and then only if further saving throws are failed.

All injury and most contact poisons do not have an onset. (aka they hit right away).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The way I read it is that you make the saves for cure if you are afflicted. If you resist the poison (make the first save) you are never afflicted to begin with ergo not have to worry about the cure saves. Having you make the cure saves right off essentially says the poison is a no save poison and afflicts you regardless.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Save:

Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison

Make the first save, you have never contracted the affliction, thereby not needing to meet the cure requirements. This same DC is used for curing yourself. There are two distinct parts to that paragraph
*****************
Cure:

Cure: This tells you how the affliction is cured. Commonly, this is a number of saving throws that must be made consecutively. Even if the affliction has a limited frequency, it might be cured prematurely if enough saving throws are made. Hit point damage and ability score damage is not removed when an affliction is cured. Such damage must be healed normally. Afflictions without a cure entry can only be cured through powerful spells, such as neutralize poison and remove curse. No matter how many saving throws are made, these afflictions continue to affect the target.

If you make your first save, you are not afflicted. Therefore, you would not need to go through the "curing" process

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The example in the PRD also implies my side of the argument. Failed the first save, thereby going under the onset time( injury are immediate) and must NOW make the consecutive saves the following rounds.

***

He failed a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid contracting it, so after the onset period of 1d3 days has passed, he must make another DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid taking 1d6 points of Strength damage. From this point onward, he must make a DC 15 Fortitude save each day (according to the disease's frequency) to avoid further Strength damage. If, on two consecutive days, he makes his Fortitude saves, he is cured of the disease and any damage it caused begins to heal as normal.

***


Shar Tahl wrote:

The example in the PRD also implies my side of the argument. Failed the first save, thereby going under the onset time( injury are immediate) and must NOW make the consecutive saves the following rounds.

***

He failed a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid contracting it, so after the onset period of 1d3 days has passed, he must make another DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid taking 1d6 points of Strength damage. From this point onward, he must make a DC 15 Fortitude save each day (according to the disease's frequency) to avoid further Strength damage. If, on two consecutive days, he makes his Fortitude saves, he is cured of the disease and any damage it caused begins to heal as normal.

***

Agreed on all counts. If you pass the first save, you take no poison damage because you have resisted its attempt to enter your system. There are no auto poison attacks.

Shadow Lodge

You have to read the afflictions section before you read the poison section. The afflictions section makes it quite clear.

"From curses to poisons to diseases, there are a number of afflictions that can affect a creature. While each of these afflictions has a different effect, they all function using the same basic system. All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted. If successful, the creature does not suffer from the affliction and does not need to make any further rolls. If the saving throw is a failure, the creature falls victim to the affliction and must deal with its effects.
"

The consecutive saves are under the cures section and only come into play if you contract it (by failing the initial save).

Edit: I guess this is largely redundant but *shrug*

Sovereign Court

0gre wrote:

You have to read the afflictions section before you read the poison section. The afflictions section makes it quite clear.

"From curses to poisons to diseases, there are a number of afflictions that can affect a creature. While each of these afflictions has a different effect, they all function using the same basic system. All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted. If successful, the creature does not suffer from the affliction and does not need to make any further rolls. If the saving throw is a failure, the creature falls victim to the affliction and must deal with its effects.
"

The consecutive saves are under the cures section and only come into play if you contract it (by failing the initial save).

Edit: I guess this is largely redundant but *shrug*

That really bones the stacking poison DC though. If you make a save to avoid being poisoned then multiple hits with the same poison will rarely stack unless you've already been poisoned.

For example I've been ruling it this way. An assassin hits the wizard in round one with 2 poisoned arrows. Just before the wizards turn he makes one save at base DC +2 to avoid being poisoned. It kind of invalidates the description of the multiple poison dose example.

--Toxic Vrock Syndrome

Shadow Lodge

King of Vrock wrote:

That really bones the stacking poison DC though. If you make a save to avoid being poisoned then multiple hits with the same poison will rarely stack unless you've already been poisoned.

For example I've been ruling it this way. An assassin hits the wizard in round one with 2 poisoned arrows. Just before the wizards turn he makes one save at base DC +2 to avoid being poisoned. It kind of invalidates the description of the multiple poison dose example.

--Toxic Vrock Syndrome

I had read just the poison section and read it and ran it that way for a while until I realized that it tied in to the afflictions which make it pretty clear that the initial save is different.

They don't contradict each other but if you read the poison section without reading and understanding afflictions and realizing that poison is an affliction then it is confusing.

Quote:
Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.

The example just skips over the whole initial save which gives the impression that it's not needed but nowhere in the poisons section does it say there is an exception. The example is just not complete.


After carefully reading the Afflictons section in the PRD, I need clarification.

If my character suffers damage from poison, he must make a save to avoid the affliction. If he fails, must make another save after the onset period has elapsed. If he fails this second save, begins to suffer the poison's effect.

Am I right? What happens if the poison have no onset?


Nemesis_Rex wrote:

After carefully reading the Afflictons section in the PRD, I need clarification.

If my character suffers damage from poison, he must make a save to avoid the affliction. If he fails, must make another save after the onset period has elapsed. If he fails this second save, begins to suffer the poison's effect.

Am I right? What happens if the poison have no onset?

My group's interpretation is that you make a second save immediately to ward off effects.

For example, if you are stung by a Wyvern, you first make a DC 17 check to see if you have been poisoned. If you succeed, you are not poisoned and make no further checks.

If you fail, you wait the onset period before making checks to avoid the effects.

The onset period is 0 rounds, so you make a second DC 17 check immediately. If you fail, take 1d4 CON damage. If you succeed, you take no CON damage that round.

You make DC 17 checks for 5 more rounds, and are free of the poison if you avoid taking damage in two consecutive rounds.

Anyway, that's how we read it. Poisons are less likely to cause damage with the new rules, since you'll have to fail twice before anything happens, although the potential for stacking does change that a bit.

I would love to see an example given to clarify the no onset time case.


Here's what I do. In my last session, the PCs fought several giant spiders. Giant spider poison:

Bite—injury; save Fort DC 14; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Strength damage; cure 1 save.

One player (my son) couldn't help but get hit by every giant spider they encountered. He also had an amazing string of 1s on his Fort saves. So, in one fight, son's character Chuck got bit, failed his save, and took 1d2 STR damage. I made a note on a piece of paper:

Chuck
1

The next round, he got bit again. He failed two DC 14 Fort saves, one for the old poison, one for the new. Note changed to:

Chuck
1 2
1

And he took 2d2 STR damage.

The next round, the spider was dead. He failed the first save, made the second. Note changed to:

Chuck
1 2 3
1 X

And he took 1d2 STR damage. By the end of the session, poor Chuck was paralyzed by giant spider venom.


I honestly run it so if a character fails the initial save and the onset was 0 rounds they just take the damage from the poison and then have to continue making saves after that. That's just how I've been running it though and could be completely wrong :P

Shadow Lodge

The way I see it the "Onset" section covers this.

Quote:
Onset: Some afflictions have a variable amount of time before they set in. Creatures that come in contact with an affliction with an onset time must make a saving throw immediately. Success means that the affliction is avoided and no further saving throws must be made. Failure means that the creature has contracted the affliction and must begin making additional saves after the onset period has elapsed. The affliction's effect does not occur until after the onset period has elapsed and then only if further saving throws are failed.

If there is an onset time there is no damage taken if you fail your initial save, but this only applies if there is an onset time.

Quote:
Effect: This is the effect that the character suffers each time if he fails his saving throw against the affliction.

If there is no onset time damage is taken with every failed save including the first.


How do you read this any other way:

Quote:
All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted. If successful, the creature does not suffer from the affliction and does not need to make any further rolls.

Break down:

* ALL afllictions, not limited to onset or not.
* Contracted, so no difference between ingested, injury, etc..
* does not need to make any further rolls, ..period.

Afflictions include disease, poison, curses.

Shadow Lodge

Warklaw wrote:

How do you read this any other way:

Quote:
All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted. If successful, the creature does not suffer from the affliction and does not need to make any further rolls.

Break down:

* ALL afllictions, not limited to onset or not.
* Contracted, so no difference between ingested, injury, etc..
* does not need to make any further rolls, ..period.

Afflictions include disease, poison, curses.

Umm... yes?

I don't think anyone is disputing that success on the initial save means you avoid the affliction entirely


My mistake, it was in the first few posts, but I agree the matter (initial saving throw) has been firmly beaten to death and my post is extremely unnessecary now.

Shadow Lodge

Warklaw wrote:
My mistake, it was in the first few posts, but I agree the matter (initial saving throw) has been firmly beaten to death and my post is extremely unnessecary now.

np, I was mostly a little confused, I thought you were replying to me or some later post.


0gre wrote:

The way I see it the "Onset" section covers this.

Quote:
Onset: Some afflictions have a variable amount of time before they set in. Creatures that come in contact with an affliction with an onset time must make a saving throw immediately. Success means that the affliction is avoided and no further saving throws must be made. Failure means that the creature has contracted the affliction and must begin making additional saves after the onset period has elapsed. The affliction's effect does not occur until after the onset period has elapsed and then only if further saving throws are failed.

If there is an onset time there is no damage taken if you fail your initial save, but this only applies if there is an onset time.

Quote:
Effect: This is the effect that the character suffers each time if he fails his saving throw against the affliction.
If there is no onset time damage is taken with every failed save including the first.

So I am doing it right :D

Shadow Lodge

Felgoroth wrote:
So I am doing it right :D

Assuming I have it right :D


This time to add value.

I agree. If there is an onset time, you do not take any damage until you fail the first save, the onset time takes place, AND you fail your first cure save.

If no onset time is present you take damage immediately following the initial save.


Here are a few other, older threads about poison.

How do poisons work?
Poison DC?. This is the one Nethys is in.
Poison in Pathfinder - How does it work?

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