So if I want to create a Belt of Physical Perfection, Caster Level 16, do I have to be at least level 16?
No, the CL is not a requirement unless it is listed explicitly (see Ioun Stones).
Spellcraft = CL16 + 5 = 21 to create the item.
Correct.
Yep, all right!
According to the change introduced by the Third Printing errata, the caster level of an item is no longer a prerequisite for creating the item, unless it es explicitly listed as such in the Construction section of item's statblock. In the latter case there s nothing to prevent this prerequisite from being ignored by taking a +5 to the DC.
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ThanksSo if I want to create a Belt of Physical Perfection, Caster Level 16, do I have to be at least level 16?No, the CL is not a requirement unless it is listed explicitly (see Ioun Stones).
Spellcraft = CL16 + 5 = 21 to create the item.Correct.
Does the Caster Level count as a prereq?
Can the Casster Level requirement be ignored by increasing the DC by +5?
Not unless it's listed in the item entry itself. Or, of course, when you're enhancing Armor or Weapons, since they need a caster level of three times the enhancement bonus, I believe.
And yes, it can be ignored by taking the +5 to the DC.
Also, ninja'd :P
According to Core, the DC to make an item is CL + 5.
So would you add another +5 if you don't meet the CL to make this item.?
Or is CL not necessary at all? Therefore the additional +5 is moot.
According to the change introduced by the Third Printing errata, the caster level of an item is no longer a prerequisite for creating the item, unless it es explicitly listed as such in the Construction section of item's statblock. In the latter case there s nothing to prevent this prerequisite from being ignored by taking a +5 to the DC.
Can someone help explain this?
To start, I didn't see this in the Third Printing Errata. The errata is only 3 pages long, but I guess I may have missed it.
Second, what does this mean?
Does it mean that since CL isn't a prerequisite that you have to be at least the necessary caster level, and you can't just ignore that by taking a +5 to the creation DC?
Or does it mean that since CL isn't a prerequisite you don't have to even consider caster level when crafting a magic item?
Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
Or does it mean that since CL isn't a prerequisite you don't have to even consider caster level when crafting a magic item?
For items with no CL listed in the "construction requirements" section, it means this.
Some few items (eg the cloak of resistance), and all armor and weapons, have CL requirements that must be met. It seems items other than armor and weapons can bypass this requirement with a +5 to the check. It's still a bit ambiguous to me whether the same applies to armor and weapons.
Either way, I've houseruled that a caster level requirement in the construction entry cannot be bypassed in any way.
So, if a character happens (for whatever reason) to have a lot of gold he or she can make:
1. A Ring of Three Wishes at 7th level? At a DC of 30 (5 base + 20 CL + 5 for not having wish or miracle.)
2. A Belt of Physical Might +6 at 3rd level? At a DC of 16 (assuming the character has bull's strength, and bear's endurance)? (5 base + 11 CL.)
Why would armor and weapons be ambiguous?
3. Sword of Life Stealing at 5th level? At a DC of 27 (5 base + 17 CL + 5 for not having enervation.)
Obviously, I feel like I'm missing something. Sorry to be so dense here.
Ring of Three Wishes DC = 5 (Base) + 20 (CL of item) + 5 (No wish Spell) = 30
(And the 97,500 GP to make the ring and the 120 days of crafting)
2. A Belt of Physical Might +6 at 3rd level? At a DC of 16 (assuming the character has bull's strength, and bear's endurance)? (5 base + 11 CL.)
By the rules, yes (though the Belt has a listed CL of 12, not 11 so the final DC to create is 17). As a gm, I find it ridiculous; I also would have preferred a different caster level per level of enhancement, but I acknowledge that this is a houserule, and not the written rules.
Why would armor and weapons be ambiguous?
3. Sword of Life Stealing at 5th level? At a DC of 27 (5 base + 17 CL + 5 for not having enervation.)
The armor (and weapon) section includes specific text stating:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Many, many long threads have derived from the argument over whether this "special prerequisite" can be bypassed with a simple +5 to the DC.
CL is 12, not 11, yes. I'm not sure where I was getting 11 from.
My problem with magic items almost always comes down to the way the game has shackled wealth into character progression. I feel it really ties the hands of folks.
Obviously, the only way items aren't going to be made early is if the GM is very cautious about keeping wealth allotments correct. Which, by the way, can be very hard to do, both in story fluff, and in moments when PC's perish -- leaving behind substantial wealth.
Many, many long threads have derived from the argument over whether this "special prerequisite" can be bypassed with a simple +5 to the DC.
This is one of the reasons a part of me is starting to get sick of running. There are far too many ambiguous areas to make house rules on for my taste.
If these issues have been debated for so long why doesn't Paizo just answer them with a faq? That would save so much trouble. That would negate so many arguments.
I'm not even sure that the DC to create an item is 5 + item's CL. That's what it says on page 548. But that's not what it says on page 112, there it says the DC is 10 + item's CL.
Honestly, a lot of this game system is starting to seem like a train wreck of tiny holes, odd exceptions, and ambiguous statements.
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If these issues have been debated for so long why doesn't Paizo just answer them with a faq? That would save so much trouble. That would negate so many arguments.
Because, Paizo has replied with a FAQ, this one:
What is the caster level required to create a pearl of power?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
And this one
Can a character with Brew Potion create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it? (page 549)
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.
Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.
In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/14/11
Edit:
Forgot this:While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
/Edit
And some odd and ends in different threads, but people is still debating how it work.
My take is:
- the minimum caster level for a item is the level necessary to cast the spell in it if it don't say anything about it needing special requirements (like weapon and armours)
- if you are missing a spell or a non special prerequisite you can substitute it taking a +5 in the crafting DC
Very debatable, but I haven't seen anything pro or against this:
- you can't overcast, i.e. you can't craft something at a CL higher than yours taking a +5 to the DC.
The reasoning for the last part is that when you can cast a spell or use a power at a CL higher than yours there is a specific rule allowing that.
I have never seen a specific rule saying that you can craft an item at a higher CL than your CL.
Note that the feat Master Craftsman give you a CL: "substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level."
Diego,
Very respectfully, I'm not sure that those faq's answer the question of whether the special prerequisite of magical weapons can be overcome with a +5 to the DC during creation. That is what the line I wrote that you quoted was pretty much referring to (being that it was in response to a quote above it.)
It also doesn't answer whether the DC is 5 + item's CL or 10 + item's CL.
I'm assuming that the PRD quote above means that if a character is not high enough level to cast the prerequisite spell then they can not make the item, meaning that they can not take a +5 to the DC to avoid that prereq. Is that correct?
Note, I see what your take on it is . . . I'm just curious if there's an official take on it anywhere. As it stands, it almost reinforces my concerns that there is too much ambiguity floating around.
Very debatable, but I haven't seen anything pro or against this:
- you can't overcast, i.e. you can't craft something at a CL higher than yours taking a +5 to the DC.
The first faq you posted above, the one from Sean Reynolds, seems to answer this. It says, "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants".
It also goes on to talk about making 3rd level Pearls of Power when you don't have access to third levels spells by taking a +5 to the DC.
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Weapon and armors say:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.
Note the special prerequisite. Only requirements can be bypassed.
It was specified in one of SKR replies.Requirements are what is listed in the item description under Requirements. Other stuff, if listed in another position, can't be bypassed.
Weapons and armours don't have a "Requirements" row in their description. There is a row with the same formatting but without that specific word at the start. So it is not a bypassable requirement but a mandatory prerequisite.
About the basic DC:
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.
That is the base. Then you add all the modifiers for the missing requirements.
/me don ring of greater fire resistance and hope it is enough to survive.
It also doesn't answer whether the DC is 5 + item's CL or 10 + item's CL.
I don't have the link handy, but I'm pretty sure this was fixed in an errata to make both sections of the rules read as 5 + CL, though this may be one of those 'fixes' that was mentioned on the boards but never actually made it into an errata release.
The developers have been pretty plainly spoken about the intent to make magic item creation very simple to accomplish for the players--thus the lower create DC, and the ability to bypass most restrictions by adding 5.
The magic creation rules are certainly one of those hot-button issues on the forums, despite several faq entries and errata documents to try to clear the water.
