Hopefully others can use this thread to clarify questions arising in this adventure. If you happen to see another thread, please link post a link in this one to try and keep things tied together.
Chapter 1: Souls for Smuggler's Shiv
Chapter 2: Racing to Ruin
Chapter 3: The City of Seven Spears
Chapter 4: Vaults of Madness
Chapter 5: The Thousand Fangs Below
Chapter 6: Sanctum of the Serpent God
I am loving the cartography in this issue. I haven't had a chance to read through anything yet (just a quick skim), but I'm captivated by the art of the maps. It reminds me a bit of the style used in the final Kingmaker. Was it the same guy? If so, give him my congrats!!! (and hire him for more projects)
Like I said, I haven't really read it yet, but from a flip through, this module is reminding me quite a bit of Sins of the Saviors. We'll see if that bears out on closer inspection.
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I am loving the cartography in this issue. I haven't had a chance to read through anything yet (just a quick skim), but I'm captivated by the art of the maps. It reminds me a bit of the style used in the final Kingmaker. Was it the same guy? If so, give him my congrats!!! (and hire him for more projects)
Like I said, I haven't really read it yet, but from a flip through, this module is reminding me quite a bit of Sins of the Saviors. We'll see if that bears out on closer inspection.
That's Jared Blando. He did do the maps for "Sound of a Thousand Screams," and also does the maps for a lot of Pathfinder Modules as well.
Great adventure!
I'm looking forward to running the feast with the Gorilla King. That scene is going to inspire some role-playing gold! LOVE it.
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Gorilla King's damage looks to be too low.
Str 25 = +7, two handed = +3, +2 from the magic weapon, +2 weapon specialization, +2 greater weapon specialization, +12 two handed power attack (at BAB of +14), = 2d6+28, not 2d6+18
2d6+18 is his damage without Power Attack. The bonuses you list give +16 then you're forgetting his +2 heavy blades weapon training bringing it to the listed +18.
Power attack damage is 2d6+30.
Just asking to be clear, EVERY time a pc who is already suffering from paranoia is exposed again the DC increases by +5, or just the second time (is it DC 17 then DC 22 and no higher, or is it DC 17, DC 22, DC 27, etc etc)? Again, I ask just to be clear, it seems that it would continue to go higher but I wanted to make sure since that's pretty nasty, specially with the -4 to will saves effectively making it a DC 21 Will save. Ouch for non-casters!
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You are correct - the DCs continue to go up. They're not called the "Vaults of Madness" for nothing! That being said, a 10th-level party should have the resources to mitigate some of the effects of the insanity, and...
Very interested to see how this is going to play out...and wondering if I'll continued to be asked to DM after this campaign. ;) Thanks for the confirmation.
just want to throw my two cents in here... looking over cobat equipment for one bad guy,,,, "flaming club"
ahaha too funny... erm we call that a torch! ahaha
Quick question: Aren't the DCs for the Gorilla King's tests a bit high?
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Quick question: Aren't the DCs for the Gorilla King's tests a bit high?
10th-level PCs should be able to meet those DCs, particularly if they take the time to prepare and stack the odds in their favor. Also keep in mind that they only need to succeed at 2 out of the 3 tasks, so if, for example, they are weak on the social side of things, and don't feel they can pass the Test of Storytelling, they can still attempt the Tests of Strength and Combat.
Quick question: Aren't the DCs for the Gorilla King's tests a bit high?10th-level PCs should be able to meet those DCs, particularly if they take the time to prepare and stack the odds in their favor. Also keep in mind that they only need to succeed at 2 out of the 3 tasks, so if, for example, they are weak on the social side of things, and don't feel they can pass the Test of Storytelling, they can still attempt the Tests of Strength and Combat.
Yeah, but one is DC 25 strength check. On level 10, you usually have something like a +7 bonus to your best ability score, meaning you need to roll something like an 18 (the Gorilla King would roll that high). And you might not have a way to get that strength up.
The next is beating up a CR 14 enemy all by yourself, which would be a hard fight even for the whole Lv 10-12 party.
The last is a skill check with a huge DC. 35 should be hard even for level 10-12 characters.
Okay, if they're allowed to walk away and come back the next day when they're prepared to the tests they now know, it might become easier, but it didn't sound like they could do that.
Quick question: Aren't the DCs for the Gorilla King's tests a bit high?10th-level PCs should be able to meet those DCs, particularly if they take the time to prepare and stack the odds in their favor. Also keep in mind that they only need to succeed at 2 out of the 3 tasks, so if, for example, they are weak on the social side of things, and don't feel they can pass the Test of Storytelling, they can still attempt the Tests of Strength and Combat.Yeah, but one is DC 25 strength check. On level 10, you usually have something like a +7 bonus to your best ability score, meaning you need to roll something like an 18 (the Gorilla King would roll that high). And you might not have a way to get that strength up.
The next is beating up a CR 14 enemy all by yourself, which would be a hard fight even for the whole Lv 10-12 party.
The last is a skill check with a huge DC. 35 should be hard even for level 10-12 characters.
Okay, if they're allowed to walk away and come back the next day when they're prepared to the tests they now know, it might become easier, but it didn't sound like they could do that.
I agree, I think those DC's are way off for a level 10 party. Then again I never expected the CE gorilla King to play fair :P. My pc's will probably end up killing the gorilla King anyway, since I have serious doubts that the paladin could stand working with such an evil creature.
Yeah, but one is DC 25 strength check. On level 10, you usually have something like a +7 bonus to your best ability score, meaning you need to roll something like an 18 (the Gorilla King would roll that high). And you might not have a way to get that strength up.
Finally, an opportunity to really shine with Strength Surge! Go barbarians!
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Quick question: Aren't the DCs for the Gorilla King's tests a bit high?10th-level PCs should be able to meet those DCs, particularly if they take the time to prepare and stack the odds in their favor. Also keep in mind that they only need to succeed at 2 out of the 3 tasks, so if, for example, they are weak on the social side of things, and don't feel they can pass the Test of Storytelling, they can still attempt the Tests of Strength and Combat.Yeah, but one is DC 25 strength check. On level 10, you usually have something like a +7 bonus to your best ability score, meaning you need to roll something like an 18 (the Gorilla King would roll that high). And you might not have a way to get that strength up.
The next is beating up a CR 14 enemy all by yourself, which would be a hard fight even for the whole Lv 10-12 party.
The last is a skill check with a huge DC. 35 should be hard even for level 10-12 characters.
Okay, if they're allowed to walk away and come back the next day when they're prepared to the tests they now know, it might become easier, but it didn't sound like they could do that.
The tests are supposed to be difficult. The Gorilla King isn't just going to hand the city to a bunch of "pink-skins" unless they prove themselves. While very difficult, they are possible to complete, and other PCs may aid the PC in other ways. That said, if you feel the tasks are too difficult for your PCs, you can reduce the DCs or allow the PCs extra time to prepare.
For the test of Strength, simple bull's strength, rage, and enlarge person spells (all of which stack) can boost a fighter's strength, while barbarians can rage or use the strength surge rage power, if they have it. In other words, there's lots of ways to boost a character's Strength. Encourage player creativity - a rogue might be able to make a Disable Device check to weaken a bundle, reducing the DC, or a bard can use inspire competence to grant a bonus on the Strength check.
Again, the test of combat is supposed to be difficult. The Gorilla King is one of the high-level NPCs of Golarion. He should not be a pushover. Remember also that that all of the PCs can gang up on him, a single foe, and he only fights until reduced to 50 hit points. If the PCs have trouble defeating him, but show that they are good, brave fighters, you can have the Gorilla King surrender earlier, if need be.
Lastly, the test of storytelling. Again a difficult DC, but a 10th-level bard likely has a Perform skill bonus of around +18 (10 ranks, +3 class skill, +5 Charisma). The test description allows an additional +6 bonus for situational factors, and there's no limit to the number of characters that can aid another (each adding +2 to the check). Add in a few enhancements like eagle's splendor, and the bard could easily have around a +25 on the check. Not an automatic success, but not an automatic failure either.
Give your players the chance to be creative and see if they can come up with their own solutions - you might be surprised what they come up with.
And finally, remember that even if the PCs fail the tests, they still have the opportunity to sneak past the Gorilla King, and try even new tactics and strategies.
For the test of Strength, simple bull's strength, rage, and enlarge person spells (all of which stack) can boost a fighter's strength, while barbarians can rage or use the strength surge rage power, if they have it. In other words, there's lots of ways to boost a character's Strength.
Still depending on a barbarian (maybe even with the right rage power) present or else the right spells at the ready. It's a specific thing.
Encourage player creativity - a rogue might be able to make a Disable Device check to weaken a bundle, reducing the DC, or a bard can use inspire competence to grant a bonus on the Strength check.
That's a good point.
Again, the test of combat is supposed to be difficult. The Gorilla King is one of the high-level NPCs of Golarion. He should not be a pushover. Remember also that that all of the PCs can gang up on him, a single foe, and he only fights until reduced to 50 hit points.
I thought it was single combat, one of the characters against the King. I'd guess that if anyone else attacks the King, his whole "court" would join in, too.
Lastly, the test of storytelling. Again a difficult DC, but a 10th-level bard
Good for every group with a bard. I know, there are three of these tests, and you only have to make two, but still...
Give your players the chance to be creative and see if they can come up with their own solutions - you might be surprised what they come up with.
Will do. I guess with some time, and maybe a day or so to prepare (instead of going right after the feast), it's a lot more doable.
And finally, remember that even if the PCs fail the tests, they still have the opportunity to sneak past the Gorilla King, and try even new tactics and strategies.
For some reason, I get this notion stuck in my head that if they prove unworthy, the whole bunch of monkey will swarm them to eat them up. Seems in line with the Gorilla King's character. I guess the "I'm playing world-class ruler here" thing does a lot to keep him from doing it.
Reminds me a bit of that scene in Schindler's List. "I pardon you."
Anyway, with preparation and the option to just sneak past (invisibility and the first teleportation options are available to them, among other things), it becomes a lot more manageable.
So enough with the complaints. Instead, a suggestion: Since others might be as thick as me in regards to adjudicating this, it would be very helpful to put some general advice into the book when difficult trials like this are on the menu. Maybe a sidebar called "Too difficult?" with some options for GMs thinking their characters aren't up to the task (which is more likely if the group isn't too much into optimising their characters).
The Test of Combat is indeed single combat. I'm looking at it now. Maybe a buffed-out fighter could take him out, but he'd better have a 35 AC and do a load of damage, because the gorilla king can take out an average level 10 fighter in two rounds...one if he crits.
The DC of 35 for the Perform check is highly dependent on Aid Anothers, but if they take take and can get a +25 modifier, they are good to go. Of course, to aid in a skill check, you have to score 10, and it's a Charisma check...meaning most 4 man groups will have a 40%+ chance of failure per the off-character attempts. Eagle's SPlendor is likely only going to be useful on OTHER characters trying to hit that Aid DC.
On the other hand, Glibness and Bluff alone could handle the whole thing, possibly. You'll be telling some truly fantastic lies.
Enlarge will give only a +1 to the Check. The Strength Domain would help, but that's highly situational. Bull's Strength is only useful if the breaker doesn't have a +4 Str item by then, which is actually fairly likely. Pure Strength check, you can't Aid Another in a strict sense, and likely the apes will be looking for something like Shatter doing the job (Still Spell for the auto success, if the PC's have the spell). I could also see Telekinesis or Mage Hand, both invisible, coming in handy. Even an Unseen Servant might be helpful...
Very Bard dependent and Juliver isn't a bard...
Yes, the DC's are too high for anything but an optimized party. Without a 20 Str, you can't even attempt the Strength test. And I'm sure most righteous parties will see anything less then winning all three and freeing the slaves as a failure. But trying to take out the king in the middle of his court is a deathwish...
Note that impressing the King is likely as important to the AP as doing the Vaults, if he's part of the army going to descend down to battle the snake men...
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Just poking through the module, and Khalid-Shah, the mud shaitan, has two abilities, Stone Curse, and Metalmorph, that are not explained in his stat block. They are in the standard Shaitan block, so i could find them, but they weren't printed in the book. FYI.
==Aelryinth
it says on page 7 you should be near 12th level when you are ready to enter the vault that ruthazek is guarding and you only have to knock him down to 50 hp to win, i can take him.
Creative Director
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Just poking through the module, and Khalid-Shah, the mud shaitan, has two abilities, Stone Curse, and Metalmorph, that are not explained in his stat block. They are in the standard Shaitan block, so i could find them, but they weren't printed in the book. FYI.
We never reprint monster abilities if those abilities are already detailed in the Bestiary. Likewise, when we stat up a rogue, we don't reprint the rules for sneak attack. When we print a wizard, we don't print rules for her spells.
Bestiary and the Core Rulebook are assumed to be on hand for all GMs of our adventures, in other words, which allows us to print the stat blocks without having to fill half the adventure with reprinted rules.
Quick question: Aren't the DCs for the Gorilla King's tests a bit high?10th-level PCs should be able to meet those DCs, particularly if they take the time to prepare and stack the odds in their favor. Also keep in mind that they only need to succeed at 2 out of the 3 tasks, so if, for example, they are weak on the social side of things, and don't feel they can pass the Test of Storytelling, they can still attempt the Tests of Strength and Combat.Yeah, but one is DC 25 strength check. On level 10, you usually have something like a +7 bonus to your best ability score, meaning you need to roll something like an 18 (the Gorilla King would roll that high). And you might not have a way to get that strength up.
The next is beating up a CR 14 enemy all by yourself, which would be a hard fight even for the whole Lv 10-12 party.
The last is a skill check with a huge DC. 35 should be hard even for level 10-12 characters.
Okay, if they're allowed to walk away and come back the next day when they're prepared to the tests they now know, it might become easier, but it didn't sound like they could do that.
I've only just started SS, so I'm not sure how powerful my PCs will be when they get to the Gorilla King, but after reading this thread about how the tests are too hard and the other thread here about how the Gorilla King is too weak, I have a possible solution that might make things a little better on both ends.
First, I'm considering making the GK an inquisitor or AntiPaladin (probably Inquisitor). I would alter his equipment a little, since he can only wear medium armor, including making his crown act as a Headband of Wisdom (instead of Intellect) +4 so he could actually use his spells. I think this would make him stronger than a 14 fighter, but I have limited knowledge of Inquisitor in practice, as I'm pretty new to PF.
Second, if a one-on-one fight is too tough, why not allow the GK to let the PCs choose what type of fight it is (2 on 2, 3 on 3, etc). This way, all of the PCs could fight and it would just be them vs the GK and some lackeys (3 Derhii Scouts, or a Derhii Scout, Charau-ka savage, and Girallon).
Also, however much time the PCs have to buff, the GK (and maybe a Charau-ka priest of his or something) should be allowed to buff the apes during that same time period pre-fight.
Not sure, but I think this would make the GK tougher while also make the actual combat test easier (and more interesting for all of the PCs, as they all get to participate).
I'd also have a rule of the fight be once someone on either side is knocked unconscious/dying, soldiers run in and drag the fallen combatant to the side and stabilize them to await the results of the fight.
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I'll probably go with the idea of doing both - have the Gorilla King there (and as a much more powerful boss), but have the fight be with his champion. Why would such a king risk himself in personal combat? I think I'll make the King a more cagey adversary instead by having it all be a double game he's playing against his son who's become a threat to him. He tasks the PC to fight his son, expecting his son to kill the PC and then get killed by the PCs, so the PCs do his dirty work for him.
I'm aslo going to tie in the Zura Cult from book one back into the main story by having the whole business with the madness spores be the work of the Zura cult's agent, who was preparing the city for the return of the vampire zurites. I think that justifies the tombs & shrooms better than the given story, since undead (like zura worshipping vampires) would be both immune to the effects of the shrooms and also a city of vampires would need those tombs to rest in during the day.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I have a question about the party's progression through the vaults. Maybe I just missed it on my read through, but how do the players "know" they should save the Vault of the Body Thief for last? They get the locations of all the vaults at the end of the first vault, and it seems to be up to them what order to do the vaults in. I could just move it so that whichever the last one they go to is that vault, but I hate to do those sort of fluid world shenanigans.
I understand an army of apes around the vault might be a deterrent, but I plan on stringing out the events so that the Gorilla King doesn't show up right away.
Plus, I have one of those players, that the harder you protect a thing, the more he needs to find out what it is.
I'm thinking of making the map in the first vault encoded, so they have to bring a copy back to camp and slowly decipher it, getting the locations of 1-2 vaults at a time.
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I have a question about the party's progression through the vaults. Maybe I just missed it on my read through, but how do the players "know" they should save the Vault of the Body Thief for last? They get the locations of all the vaults at the end of the first vault, and it seems to be up to them what order to do the vaults in. I could just move it so that whichever the last one they go to is that vault, but I hate to do those sort of fluid world shenanigans.
I understand an army of apes around the vault might be a deterrent, but I plan on stringing out the events so that the Gorilla King doesn't show up right away.
Plus, I have one of those players, that the harder you protect a thing, the more he needs to find out what it is.
I'm thinking of making the map in the first vault encoded, so they have to bring a copy back to camp and slowly decipher it, getting the locations of 1-2 vaults at a time.
That is a good idea. Also, you have the map in the first vault be 'incomplete,' this way each new vault adds part of the map until the body snatcher vault is left.
The adventure give the mandate but not the mechanic.
I suggest you just have the Gorilla King's army tell the PCs something to the effect of "We won't just kill you now becuase the King wants to meet you, but you have to come back later because he's not ready yet. There's a big feast he wants us to set up for you, and that takes time, so shoo away baldie".
If the PCs give the little monkey man any guff about having to wait or getting attiude, just tell them that the ape points to the army, and describe 80+ winged, multi-armed, crazy ass apes staring them down.
If that doesn't get them walking, seems like most times players start fights with the wrong people it's because they're metagaming that becuase it's an encoutner, and they've met it, it must be beatable as a combat encounter right there and then, and if you metagame right back by just giving them the number it snaps them out of it. Just then tell them flat out: Fighting the apes is a CR19 combat encounter. Then ask them what they want to do.
Story wise, the gorilla king making the PCs wait, if only to put them off balance and establish his control of the situation, makes perfect sense. Likewise making sure the PCs understand that they're not going to be able to solve this by just rolling initiative helps set the stage for the GK's three tests.
So it already came up here that a few GMs think that the Gorilla King's challenges are a little tough for non-optimized PCs and I agree with them.
Even if some theoretical ways have already been pointed out I'd greatly appreciate it, if anyone who already ran his group through the feast could tell the rest of us how his PCs managed the tests "in real life"!
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Kind of, I have moved some of the vaults around to make them fit better instead of having them on the outskirts of the city.
The first and last vault I left where they were as the story needs them to be there.
The Temple district I moved to the seris of small ziggurats near the lake, the middle one was the entrance and I have undead of somekind gaurding the entrance, I left the vault as it was but removed the serpentfolk element didnt see the need for it.
The Dreaming Jungle I placed at the base of the plaza underneath the dream spider, I thought as it has lots of plants and fungus in it it could be the main reason for the area being covered in plant growth, the thorny lions are part of the Hags experiments that got loose and are hiding, otherwise left it as it was.
The Agricultural district one I added to the swampy area near the artisan district, I have this area as a Chuul hunting ground and adding a cenote here was easy as it looks cavernous anyway. The vault I left as it was.
The Military distict one I moved to the circlular building with spheres on it, the inside of the building has a big hole in the floor covered in webs otherise the vault stays as is.
The government one I moved to the island that is near the mercentile district, I cant remember the number off hand I think its G5 but it has a few small ruins on it, I moved the chimera to here and made it thier lair, one of the buildings houses the vault, otherwise it was as is.
The placement works for me and after all teh work I had to do for part 3 I had run out of steam to change too much. Reading through it though it all seems to work pretty well, I just think the Vaults needed to be moved. This also would help with running 3 and 4 together a little as its possible the party ma stumble on them earlier.
Would the spell Life Bubble protect against the effects of the midnight spores or just give a bonus to the saves?
It specifically wards against inhaled diseases so I see no reason why it shouldn't completely prevent any damage by the midnight spores.
It specifically wards against inhaled diseases so I see no reason why it shouldn't completely prevent any damage by the midnight spores.
Spores are contact not inhaled that's why holding you breath doesn't help. But i still think life bubble would work.
Oh, sorry then, I don't have the module at hand right now. But if the spores are contact then Life Bubble wouldn't help. The spells description says nothing about contact toxins, only temperature and inhaled.
Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, even full-body protection doesn't help, as the AP has explained it (as apparently its microscopic or something) and all things that would normally prevent similar maladies don't prohibit the midnight spores (as not only is it on-contact, it's neither a poison nor disease), although such things as a breathing cloth, protective suits, and magical spells are noted as giving bonuses, as everything is written. I'll try and get a more detailed description later unless someone (like DJCherryPie!) beats me to it.
Now my players are just beginning bk 6 and with two of them able to cast Heal they want to collect the midnight spores and bomb the BBEG's lair with bags of it. Yay for creativity, boo for making me scramble to come up with results. At least they mentioned this beforehand so I can decide how much effect it should have.
Now my players are just beginning bk 6 and with two of them able to cast Heal they want to collect the midnight spores and bomb the BBEG's lair with bags of it. Yay for creativity, boo for making me scramble to come up with results. At least they mentioned this beforehand so I can decide how much effect it should have.
Even if they saturate the baddies' layer with as much as they get, it shouldn't cause too much trouble aside from a slower healing rate. Basically the baddies become a little paranoid and don't work together as well. But in reality, it's not going to do too much, I'd think, unless they work really hard to gather all that stuff up!
Now my players are just beginning bk 6 and with two of them able to cast Heal they want to collect the midnight spores and bomb the BBEG's lair with bags of it. Yay for creativity, boo for making me scramble to come up with results. At least they mentioned this beforehand so I can decide how much effect it should have.
It's taken millennia to saturate the vaults to dangerous levels. (Actually looking at the back story it only took decades but, you know) I don't think a few bags will create any noticeable effect within the time frame available. They might be able to use flasks of them as thrown weapons to infect specific enemies.
Although, as Tacticslion pointed out, it would only have minor effects. I've only skim read bk6 (having only just started bk4) but I seem to recall a pair of snakeheads who are bonded together and react to assist each other their behaviours would be the only ones significantly affected. I might make any potential friendlies harder to convince and guards less willing to come to the aid of each other (after all it could be a set up to get him)
While I could just add a few points to the army score, that'd be boring. I'm thinking of the BBSG welding his doors to the Designated Final Dueling Arena shut in case any other serpent folk want credit for his successes. But this is more appropriate to thE Sanctum thread.
As for collecting the stuff, I remember something about the Body Rhief vault having a narrow corridor choked with full-grown spore plants. That'll do for what the party has in mind.