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*scratches head* not sure what you're trying to say Kthulhu...I was commenting how, from what I've heard, the author didn't know much about traditional vampires which is why hers seem to stand out...If it sparkles and can go out in daylight w/o bursting into flames, that's not a vampire, that's a fey....Would you be interested in attending a carnival? It's especially prepared for people who think like you.
** spoiler omitted **
The fey are offended by the comparison, and intend to throw you into the meat-grinder that is CoT.
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To join the discussion on Narnia, cmon folks. They are OVERTLY Christian. I don't read Phillip Pullman expecting him to affirm my religious beliefs. When you read Lewis's fiction, his Christianity shows because he intends it to. I mean, really.... you don't read Dante and Milton and walk away disappointed because ZOMG IT WAS SO PREACHY.
Well, in the earlier Narnia books it wasn't as in-your-face, and the story superseded the preachiness. Compare that to The Last Battle, where any literary or entertainment value is obviously secondary to the "ZOMG!!! IF UR NOT A CHRISTIAN UR DOOMED TO HELL!!!" message.
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Where to begin?
I am a "child", and with precious little previous experience in "geek culture", or serious literature studies. I am thirteen, I know more about Twilight than I know about the person called Terry Pratchett, I am eagerly awaiting the time when I can continue reading Salvatore's novels, and I would still like to try 4E.
I read, game, and write for my own enjoyment, using my own standards for what is enjoyable, and I see no reason why this is inferior to reading, gaming, etc. using any other standards. It is difficult to learn about and integrate yourself in a subculture wherein each member seems determined to prove that he/she knows best and will not budge an inch from that opinion, even when they allow others their own opinion. While I admire individualism and understand the desire to converse intelligently about a subject one has a passion for, is it any wonder that the current generation of young gamers is leaning towards World of Warcraft and 4E when the more traditional, "sophisticated" group of geeks are so apparently anti-newbie? Not all of us are fortunate enough to have gaming mentors or older, well-read friends in real life.
Therefore, I refuse to be ashamed of my ongoing love of The Legend of Drizzt and quite a lot of kid's books, and I am now satisfied that I have at least tried to get my point across.
(This may be on the wrong forum. Admins, feel free to move it).
I would like to discuss the following topics on this thread, if others will reply with lack of negativity or condescension;
-The Legend of Drizzt
-The Earthsea Cycle by Ursula K. Le Guin
-Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
-Narnia
-LotR
As a grognard to a newbie: glad to hear you and glad you spoke up. The "one-up-manship" of some of our tribe drives me nuts too. I'm with you in not really knowing Pratchett. I tried one of his books and thought it sucked. Just my opinion -- I know he's very popular. Never read any Drizzt either but I'm always fascinated by what people like and why, so if you care to share what you love about the book I'm all ears.
Earthsea is mighty! I adore Mistborn, Narnia and LotR. I must have read those Narnia books over 20 times and am looking forward to sharing them with my kids.
Must confess, for the life of me, I loathe Twilight. I tried. I really did. Bleh. That's just me, though. Obviously many people love it, but not I.
Anyway, just chiming in some opinions. Always open to having my mind changed and always love to talk story.
Peace.
PS Welcome to the subculture. You indicated you were new to it so...welcome.
I would like to discuss the following topics on this thread, if others will reply with lack of negativity or condescension;
-The Legend of Drizzt
-The Earthsea Cycle by Ursula K. Le Guin
-Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
-Narnia
-LotR
Yucale, A remarkably reasonable post, and I commend you! Gamers indeed tend to be very condescending to their kith and kin. I'm not sure whether this is a reaction to the attitude they receive from 'regular' folks, or whther it is a facet of their social awkwardness, which unfortunately often accompanies RPG love.
I think the Internet exacerbates this, by being a lousy medium of communication. Also, I think that gamers don't like other's interpretations of 'their' turf. The recent (and somewhat ongoing) edition wars of D&D are a perfect example. The storm of controversy Arnold Schwartzenegger touched off by playing Conan in the gaming community in the early Eighties is another (although enough time has passed that now most folks regard that movie as a 'classic'. Time heals all wounds).
WoW and other MMORPGs (of which I am a long-time player who only quit a year or so ago after a six-year involvement in several), are threatening to old-school gamers. They also where most people your age are going. It is Progress. We older gamers get nostalgic, and we sneer at the 'newbies' becasue we (at least in my observations) fear our hobby, which we love, will wither away. Of course it won't, as long as there are two people left willing to play, but some folks like to be at the vanguard of things, not the 'grognards.' Speaking as a 43-year-old geek, it is quite scary to see your youth become history, and ancient history at that.
I like many of your topics, and I certainly wouldn't say anything about the ones I don't like. After all, everyone likes differing things. Here's my abbreviated opinions on the ones you mentioned:
- We had an Earthsea discussion here some time ago. It unfortunately was quite contentious. I personally think Ursula K LeGuin is an excellent writer and these books sit proudly on my bookshelves to this day.
- Drizzt will never get a good thread here in my opinion, he's just too easy of a target, and there is much hate arrayed against him. I am not a fan of the writing style, but, when taken as it is meant to be (accesable YA fiction) it is not bad. Plus it helped involved others in the whole D&D thing as a 'gateway' if you will. I have observed if you started playing D&D BEFORE Drizz't hit the scene you are more likely to despise him, and vice versa.
- Mistborn I have never read.
- LotR is a classic in my opinion, and I was heartened by the fact the movies were of excellent quality. Tolkien was the first immersive fantasist, and set the bar high.
- Narnia was one of my grade-school favorites, although it often gets slammed on the Internet for the underlying Christian storyline. Lewis' writing in my opinion is not of the quality of Tolkien's, but still they also sit on my shelves along with the LotR, Simarillion, etc.
My 2cp (and all stictly opinion only). Hope that helps.
...
- We had an Earthsea discussion here some time ago. It unfortunately was quite contentious. I personally
And that was the discussion that got me to read the books. And confirm that, at least the first two, are quite good.
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I've read most if not all of the Drizzt books. I don't hate the character cause of ppl playing a good drow in my games. I usually laughed at how those played out cause of the level adjustment. I called them 1 hit wonders. If they took 1 hit from a cr appropriate monster you wonder where they went...There was a short story that explained Guenwyvar's (sp?)origin. I only was able to read it cause they posted it on the WotC site several years back. I was a bit disappointed with the latest trilogy but that may have been because the first book of the arc had it's chapter break introspections in the current realms timeline (ie after the Spellplague). Although they did not maintain that timeframe for the 2nd and 3rd books introspections, they did use the 3rd book as a swansong for Cadderly Bonaduce. He's another Salvatore character. If you'd like a different approach to priests(clerics), I suggest you pickup the Cleric Quintet by Salvatore.
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Another good fantasy, thought it's definitely 'low magic', would be the Song of Fire and Ice series by George R.R. Martin. First 4 books are out and it's being developed as a series by HBO. Little forewarning, it can be pretty grim at times. First book is "A Game of Thrones."
Edit: oh and there is usually a few mentions of other 'adult content' in each book. Not sure if that is an issue in your household or not but thought I'd give fair warning :)
-Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
I remember when a friend of mine gave me a copy of this shortly after it came out insisting that I would 'love it'. I am always leery of this kind of claim as it seems few people get my tastes in fantasy literature.
Mistborn got it. In spades.
The world Sanderson created in just the first 30 pages of this book captivated me. I read it nearly completely in one sitting. I never do that. I've since read it half a dozen times (and its sequels) and don't think i can ever tire of it. It is a little sad Sanderson decided to end the series after 3 books but it was the most satisfying ending to a series I can remember since Tolkien's LotR trilogy. Sanderson proved himself to me in this one series that he is a major talent in the novel business I he has even got me thinking of getting back in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series as he has taken over finishing that after Jordan's death last year. I didn't think anyone could tempt me to do that but Sanderson's writing chops certainly has.
I am frequently surprised at how few people know about this series. It seems like it was a best selling secret or something.
Do not let others judge you by your age or what you read.
Mr. Fishy is a shamefully lover of hundred year old pulp fiction. The literary equivalent to a cheeseburger, a tasty, tasty cheeseburger. Mr. Fishy has read Burroughs, Howard, Lieber and Le Guin.
The best advice a gamer can give another is, "Play as you will."
If anyone gives you lip come tell Mr. Fishy, because he knows the poodles. Or yell "Tier Fishy!" that really gets em riled.
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-Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
I remember when a friend of mine gave me a copy of this shortly after it came out insisting that I would 'love it'. I am always leery of this kind of claim as it seems few people get my tastes in fantasy literature.
Mistborn got it. In spades.
The world Sanderson created in just the first 30 pages of this book captivated me. I read it nearly completely in one sitting. I never do that. I've since read it half a dozen times (and its sequels) and don't think i can ever tire of it. It is a little sad Sanderson decided to end the series after 3 books but it was the most satisfying ending to a series I can remember since Tolkien's LotR trilogy. Sanderson proved himself to me in this one series that he is a major talent in the novel business I he has even got me thinking of getting back in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series as he has taken over finishing that after Jordan's death last year. I didn't think anyone could tempt me to do that but Sanderson's writing chops certainly has.
I am frequently surprised at how few people know about this series. It seems like it was a best selling secret or something.
"Kill him, God said."
Have a player in my recent home campaign who wanted to play a crazy person, a failed self-trepanning. To get the "voices out". I said ok, but only on condition that after a period of silence the voices had started to return.
You should have seen his face the first time I stood behind and a little to the side of him, made a thought bubble over his head, and said "Kill him, God said." I thought the other players would wet themselves.
Thank you Mr. Sanderson!
I am so not a fan of Drizzt, mechanically most of all. I was when I was alot younger though, then IIRC in FR8 they had his stats writeup. I remember reading something like he has a 75% chance to parry any attack even if he has already used his own attacks, etc.
TBH, I also outgrew RA Salvatores writing style. I did enjoy his Canticle Quintet alot more than the dark elf books for the not so super-powered characters.
I really enjoyed the first three series of Drizzt books, back in the day. The Dark Elf Trilogy is a hallmark fantasy series, IMO. Keep in mind, before Salvatore gave life to Drizzt, there was almost nothing in the way of dark elf lore... Gygax had a couple characters in Sea of Death, and obviously the GDQ modules. Salvatore created a whole drow society in those books!
The one gripe I've got with the latter Drizzt books (Hunter's Blade series was the last I read) is that he's essentially unbeatable. Sure, hes had a couple close fights with Zak and Artemis, but... even though the combat scenes are well written, I feel zero dramatic tension because I know he's just going to dominate.
My 2 cp... great thread!
-Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
I remember when a friend of mine gave me a copy of this shortly after it came out insisting that I would 'love it'. I am always leery of this kind of claim as it seems few people get my tastes in fantasy literature.
Mistborn got it. In spades.
The world Sanderson created in just the first 30 pages of this book captivated me. I read it nearly completely in one sitting. I never do that. I've since read it half a dozen times (and its sequels) and don't think i can ever tire of it. It is a little sad Sanderson decided to end the series after 3 books but it was the most satisfying ending to a series I can remember since Tolkien's LotR trilogy. Sanderson proved himself to me in this one series that he is a major talent in the novel business I he has even got me thinking of getting back in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series as he has taken over finishing that after Jordan's death last year. I didn't think anyone could tempt me to do that but Sanderson's writing chops certainly has.
I am frequently surprised at how few people know about this series. It seems like it was a best selling secret or something.
Three words-
OH. HELL. YEAH.
LOVE Mistborn. To pieces. Literally, since my friend's one year old son ate the last few pages. But yeah. I love it. LOVE IT.
G!~&$&n whippersnappers! Get the hell off my lawn!!!
I should like to apologize. I have looked down my nose at Twilight and Drizzit. I do not think I have said so directly to you, Yucale, but I know I have said something to someone somewhere.
Having said that, I am free to dislike them just as you are free to like them. I do not believe I have looked down my nose at a person for liking something. I just like making fun of things I do not like. I am sure I have plenty of guilty pleasures others would rib on me for. Miami Vice anyone?
I am sure I have plenty of guilty pleasures others would rib on me for. Miami Vice anyone?
Can we start doing Team Crocket vs Team Tubbs?
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I should like to apologize. I have looked down my nose at Twilight and Drizzit. I do not think I have said so directly to you, Yucale, but I know I have said something to someone somewhere.
Having said that, I am free to dislike them just as you are free to like them. I do not believe I have looked down my nose at a person for liking something. I just like making fun of things I do not like. I am sure I have plenty of guilty pleasures others would rib on me for. Miami Vice anyone?
It's that Don Johnson poster in your room that upsets me.
Socks are for tools, man. Just like thin ties.
The 80's r0x0r5!!!!1!!shift+one
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I am definately team 80's for Miami Vice. I am also a long time gamer, but in general I try to be welcoming to new people so long as they are just as respectful of the things I enjoy (and will go on about) as I am of their long speeches about the things they like. Different people find different avenues into gaming, whatever brings you to it, be glad you found it. That being said, as much as you like it, someone hates it just as much. It has been said a lot on this thread and about the internet in general, people are more likely to complain about something than to say that they liked it. Also the internet has inspired a lot of people to be much bigger douchebags than they would normally be. Google "Greater Internet F*ckwad Theory" for a better description of the phenomenon.
On the subject of Narnia and it's christian content - this atheist, brought up by non-christian parents in the very secularised environment of working class Sweden read all seven books without noticing it until someone pointed it out to him.
On the subject of Narnia and it's christian content - this atheist, brought up by non-christian parents in the very secularised environment of working class Sweden read all seven books without noticing it until someone pointed it out to him.
i also have not seen any overtly christian message. of course, i usally just read for a good story, which narnia is.
as far as game mentors...i started playing in 1979, in central montana. there were no game mentors. me and my buddies started playing avalon hill war games, and just kept getting different games.
enjoy your game, what ever game you happen to be playing. there is no right way, there is no wrong way. there is only the fun way. only you can define the fun way.
same with books. read what you want to read, dont let others decide what is good, what is bad, and what is ugly.
get together, role dice, drink beer...i mean soda.
The general lack of civics education in America. It's gotten to the point where most people don't have an idea what the word means. Americans are also generally lacking in group values as the "rugged individualism myths" tend to put individual action and ideals over any group identification. This tends to devalue the concept of public shared spaces. America is one of those places where being rude is seen as an individual virtue and expression of manliness.
Americans are not one "people" so don't go lumping Mr. Fishy in with Rednecks and Yankees. American is like saying European or Middle Eastern, American is a HUGE place and some of us do have proper home training. In the furture please say Redneck or Yankees so we all know you're a racist. Or Fishy if if you are talking about Mr. Fishy or his ilk.
... "sophisticated" group of geeks are so apparently anti-newbie? Not all of us are fortunate enough to have gaming mentors or older, well-read friends in real life...
Those darn sophisticates.
Socks are for tools, man. Just like thin ties.
The 80's r0x0r5!!!!1!!shift+one
Of course we HAVE tried to castrate him, and he keeps escaping from animal control....
Where to begin?
I am a "child", and with precious little previous experience in "geek culture", or serious literature studies. I am thirteen, I know more about Twilight than I know about the person called Terry Pratchett, I am eagerly awaiting the time when I can continue reading Salvatore's novels, and I would still like to try 4E....
Hello Yucale, and welcome to the Internet. The Internet is full of mean people who would have nothing better to do with their time than to attempt to be clever and get under the skin of other people. I'm sorry that you have had such a negative experience, but trust me that is only a small and braindead minority. Well, let me just say that the best way to get around these guys is to completely ignore them because making such posts like this only strokes their massive egos. I have gamed with all sorts of people from a variety of ages and I have found that it isn't how old a person is but how mature they are. You seem to be a very mature person and it is a shame that people have mistreated you in this manner. But again, that is the internet for you. It takes all of the wonderful things in life and twists them into the worst possible things imaginable.
Anyways, welcome to the boards. I hope your experience here will improve.
I looked up an essay on the Elric books and am now very interested in reading them.
Two problems;
1.) trying to find them in the right order (as you said)
2.) getting my mom to allow me to read them.Thanks, everyone, for all the book suggestions. I was needing something else to read. The only problem is my parents are...
If you haven't discovered them already, two writers you might like who wrote eminently literate fantasy and horror for younger readers are Zilpha Keatley Snyder (Green Sky series-can't say about other novels) and John Bellairs. I especially like Bellairs' Johnny Dixon series. I was younger than you when I first read them, and I still find them highly readable over 20 years later. If you enjoy Bellairs, you might want to explore MR James. For my money, he wrote the best literary terror ever. All of what I am recommending is PG, maybe PG-13, but not at all bland or juvenile. Octavia Butler is one of my favorite sci-fi writers ("Fledgling" is a really interesting take on vampires), but is usually more mature. If you can read about vampires, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro has written a long series of historical vampire novels which are pretty good. They are really historical fiction, the vampire element being essentially tangential to the plots.
Salvatore never stat'ed Drizzt or played him in a D&D game.
I would like to read the Canticle some time.
FR7 Hall of Heroes had stats on Drizzt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_of_Heroes_(Forgotten_Realms)
also....
Drizzt Do'Urden has been featured in several accessories and one book for the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. The Hall of Heroes accessory for the second edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, published in 1989, features a four-page description and game statistics for Drizzt and Guenhwyvar, written by R. A. Salvatore.[25] The Heroes' Lorebook accessory, published in 1996 and written by Dale Donovan and Paul Culotta, features an update and revision of Drizzt's information from Hall of Heroes
from the drizzt wiki page at....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden
Unfortunately, my mom is very touchy about all adult content. Sometimes I feel I'm lucky lotR isn't off limits *fumes*.
That's unfortunate. I was lucky in that my parents took little to no interest in what I read, content-wise. I can't remember them ever even asking what any of my reading was about. (They were very happy that I was reading, but what I was reading was considered my own business.)
But you'll get a chance to read whatever you like eventually.
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I'm surprised. I know most (myself, on and off) rage at Drizzt, but I've never heard of *Earthsea* hate. I never read any of the sequels but I remember the first book fondly. Mind expanding upon that one?
My biggest complaint about LotR is that it can be a bit dry, in comparison to modern writings, and that it is not written with modern sensibilities, but then again, it wasn't exactly written in "modern" times.
I have some recommendations for books, based on my own reading, but the subject matter, while not "adult", is rather cynical, so it might not fly.
Ebooks might always work, if you're not averse to many hours spent in front of the PC, but then again, that would still require you having your own credit card to maintain secrecy.
Hello Yucale! I'm a new poster here. I've been out of the fantasy genre as far as books go for many years. I used to read Burroughs Pellucidar series, Doc Savage, A.C. Doyle's Professor Challenger and J.G. Ballard's "The Crystal world." Narnia and Tolkien I did not read until I got into Dungeons and Dragons in 1975.
I remember reading that C.S.Lewis had a saying "past watchful dragons".He was referring to the style of writing he chose for the Narnia books. He could get his Christian message delivered to readers who would normally be hostile to reading a straight-up parable style book. The "watchful dragons" are the guardians we put up in our minds to stand against allowing certain points of view in.
Anyways I purchased an e-reader the other day. I figured I'd purchase a more recent fantasy book and get back into it. In honor of your thread I am purchasing the first Drizz't book. It honestly sounds excellent and full of twists, turns and high adventure.
I look forward to perhaps discussing it as I try to catch up to you. ;D
- Senator
Unfortunately, my mom is very touchy about all adult content. Sometimes I feel I'm lucky lotR isn't off limits *fumes*.
Just keep reading. There is so much out there for you that you can afford to wait a few years to crack anything your mom bans.
Just_keep_reading.
Just_keep_reading.
Unless, of course, someone offers you the Necronomicon.
Just_keep_reading.Unless, of course, someone offers you the Necronomicon.
Or the King in Yellow manuscript