Added effects (like trip) on attacks of opportunity


Rules Questions


Say I have a Wolf (its attack is bite plus trip) which tripped a PC.
The PC tries to get up from prone in his turn, so the Wolf gets an attack of opportunity; this brings the following questions:
1) Is the trip effect added to the AoO or not?
2) If it is, and if the trip is another success, does the character lose the move action he used to try to stand up or is it still available to him, since the Wolf made his AoO & trip before his actual action?

My guess is the answers are:
1) Yes.
2) The PC loses that single move action.
But I just wanted to be sure.


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The AoO happens just before the act that provokes it, so the PC is still prone. Tripping someone who is already prone has no effect, so attempting a trip as part of an AoO in response to someone getting up from prone does nothing. The AoO goes off and then the PC gets up.


If the wolf had the Greater Trip and Combat Reflexes feats, is there a reason that it could not make the AoO when the PC attempts to stand up, attempt to trip it and, if successful, take another AoO against it?

There does not seem to be anything that grants prone creatures immunity to being tripped; it just generally does not have any useful effect. The only reason I could see why this might not work is one action cannot provoke multiple AoOs, but I think there are two different causes for the AoOs here: standing up and being tripped.


udalrich wrote:

If the wolf had the Greater Trip and Combat Reflexes feats, is there a reason that it could not make the AoO when the PC attempts to stand up, attempt to trip it and, if successful, take another AoO against it?

There does not seem to be anything that grants prone creatures immunity to being tripped; it just generally does not have any useful effect. The only reason I could see why this might not work is one action cannot provoke multiple AoOs, but I think there are two different causes for the AoOs here: standing up and being tripped.

You can't trip someone who is already prone. Either you are standing or you are prone. In real life it works, but when you are on the receiving end of the repeated trips in the game, it is less fun, and that is why the rules dont allow for it.


wraithstrike wrote:
You can't trip someone who is already prone. Either you are standing or you are prone.

Do you have any support for that in the rules, or just common sense/reality?

The most common situation where this comes up is trying to keep someone prone, and I agree that adding the prone condition to a prone character has no effect. I'm asking about a different situation, where there would be a real, in-game effect to tripping a prone character.


udalrich wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You can't trip someone who is already prone. Either you are standing or you are prone.

Do you have any support for that in the rules, or just common sense/reality?

The most common situation where this comes up is trying to keep someone prone, and I agree that adding the prone condition to a prone character has no effect. I'm asking about a different situation, where there would be a real, in-game effect to tripping a prone character.

Using common sense/reality you could keep someone down. It is game mechanics that stop it in the game.

You can't trip someone who is already prone. It makes as much sense as trying to kill something that is already dead(not undead, but actually dead). When the person stands up they provoke an AoO, but the AoO interrupts the act of standing up. Until the act is completed they are still prone.

Example 2: Trying to make this work makes as much sense as trying to trip someone who decides to stay on their back, and makes no attempt to stand up.

The rules are not written in legalese, but some things should not have to be spelled out. As an example the dead condition does not restrict me from taking further actions.


Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies


I don't see any rules support for the idea that you cannot initiate a trip attempt against a prone opponent.


In fact it should work and (in case of success) simply keep the PC in prone position, making him lose his action, although since he can make a standard/move action + a move action, he can use a second move action to stand up.


AvalonXQ wrote:
I don't see any rules support for the idea that you cannot initiate a trip attempt against a prone opponent.

Nope nothing stops you from trippign a prone opponent. The result of such an attack is your opponent is prone.

That however does not stop him from getting up after you trip him.

Round 1) Wolfie bites and trips Little Red Riding Hood.
Round 1) Little Red Riding Hood decides to stand up and provokes an AoA.
Round 1) Wolfie Bites the prone Little Red Riding Hood and with trip makes her prone again (even though she is already prone).
Round 1) Little Red Riding hood continues her action which provoked an attack of opportunity and stands up.
Round 1) Little Red Riding Hood steps back 5' and screams "Help"
Round 2) The woodsman heres the scream, perceives the threatening wolf (even though he does not have reach and is not technically threatening here), throws his Axe (he has Throw Anything feat) Rolls a natural 20, Confirms, maxxes damage and beheads the wolf (flavor text).

Since the AoA happens BEFORE the attempt to stand up wether it can trip is irrelevant and does not effect ones ability to stand up.


Same reason you can't pick a naked man's pocket.


Ughbash wrote:


Round 1) Wolfie bites and trips Little Red Riding Hood.
Round 1) Little Red Riding Hood decides to stand up and provokes an AoA.
Round 1) Wolfie Bites the prone Little Red Riding Hood and with trip makes her prone again (even though she is already prone).
Round 1) Little Red Riding hood continues her action which provoked an attack of opportunity and stands up.
Round 1) Little Red Riding Hood steps back 5' and screams "Help"
Round 2) The woodsman heres the scream, perceives the threatening wolf (even though he does not have reach and is not technically threatening here), throws his Axe (he has Throw Anything feat) Rolls a natural 20, Confirms, maxxes damage and beheads the wolf (flavor text).

Since the AoA happens BEFORE the attempt to stand up wether it can trip is irrelevant and does not effect ones ability to stand up.

Not quite right: While the part about tripping is spot-on, the rest won't happen that way. Remember we're talking about tales for children. Beheading is too good for villains!

He'll beat him into submission with a sap (non-lethal damage). Then he'll cut open his belly (he's a woodsman, so he is perfectly capable of complicated surgery, of course), put heavy stones into it, and sew it shut. Then they feed the sucker lots of salt so its real thirsty.

When it wakes up, it will have no pain really, won't notice the stitches or the added weight from stones (ever eaten something that lay in your stomach like a stone? Actual stones don't cause that feeling apparently). It will go to a nearby well (lots of those in the forest!) to have a drink, and the woodsman will sneak up and push it in, where it will sink like a stone(-filled animal) and drown, which is a really horrible way to die.

Serves it right to follow its nature! Stupid animal. Bed-time stories rock!

Liberty's Edge

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KaeYoss wrote:
Same reason you can't pick a naked man's pocket.

*Requisite potty humor joke*

Grand Lodge

KaeYoss wrote:
Same reason you can't pick a naked man's pocket.

But can you pick a naked kangaroo's pocket? Now THAT is more interesting!


udalrich wrote:

If the wolf had the Greater Trip and Combat Reflexes feats, is there a reason that it could not make the AoO when the PC attempts to stand up, attempt to trip it and, if successful, take another AoO against it?

There does not seem to be anything that grants prone creatures immunity to being tripped; it just generally does not have any useful effect. The only reason I could see why this might not work is one action cannot provoke multiple AoOs, but I think there are two different causes for the AoOs here: standing up and being tripped.

Technically, the RAW allows you to trip a prone opponent. Greater Trip does not require the opponent to "become prone" to grant you an AoO - it merely requires your trip attempt to succeed.

So the RAW will apparently allow you to use an AoO to trip a prone opponent who provokes by standing up, and the feat will allow you to use another AoO (assuming you also have Combat Reflexes as you correctly stipulated) to attack them if your trip AoO is successful.

Net result: foe tries to stand up, you burnt two AoOs to (maybe) land one damaging hit on them, but you have two chances for this to fail (you might fail the trip, or you might miss the attack). Either way, oppoenent stands up on his turn (unless your one damaging attack kills him).

Or...

You could just use one AoO to attack him when he provokes by standing up from prone. Benefit: you only use one AoO instead of two, and you only have one chance to fail instead of two.

I think I would just hit him when he provokes.

Scarab Sages

Maybe I'm just a tard who can't read, but I fail to see where it says that an AoO happens first??

PRD wrote:

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

See, the way I read that is the prone character attempts to stand, thus provoking the AoO which can be a "trip" combat maneuver. Upon successful AoO of a trip combat maneuver, the character who was attempting to stand up fails, and has either another move action to attempt to stand again, or lay there and act all defensive and cry for his mama. If the attacker has Combat Reflexes, he should be able to attempt to trip a second time as a second AoO with a trip combat maneuver.

This way, you use your combat reflexes and actually accomplish a pacifistic means of keeping your opponent down.

Or, I'm a tard.


Bomanz wrote:

Maybe I'm just a tard who can't read, but I fail to see where it says that an AoO happens first??

PRD wrote:

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

See, the way I read that is the prone character attempts to stand, thus provoking the AoO which can be a "trip" combat maneuver. Upon successful AoO of a trip combat maneuver, the character who was attempting to stand up fails, and has either another move action to attempt to stand again, or lay there and act all defensive and cry for his mama. If the attacker has Combat Reflexes, he should be able to attempt to trip a second time as a second AoO with a trip combat maneuver.

This way, you use your combat reflexes and actually accomplish a pacifistic means of keeping your opponent down.

Or, I'm a tard.

Misunderstanding the rule does not a tard make.

The idea of "happening before the provoking action" comes from 3.5 and that exact wording is not explicit in the Pathfinder rules. However, what is that when the AoO is provoked, you immediately resolve the AoO before you resolve the action that provoked it - it says so right there in the text you quoted.

This means that when the prone guy tries to stand up he provokes an AoO that happens before he stands up (he is "standing up" at the end of his action, and that action has not been completed yet, so he is not standing up yet). Which means the AoO happens while he is still technically prone.

But don't read too much into the bit that says it "interrupts" the action - this seems to imply that an AoO can prevent the action that provokes it, but this is not the case. AoOs never prevent the provoking action. If you move out of a threatened space, provoking an AoO, after you take your damage you keep moving.

Some things seem to be an exception, but not really. For example, if you move and provoke, and the AoO kills you, then you don't keep moving. However, it is death that prevents your movement, not the AoO - hopefully that distinction makes sense. Likewise, if you provoke by casting a spell and then take damage from the AoO, that damage forces you to make a concentration check, and failure can disrupt your spell. But again, it was not the AoO that disrupted the spell, but rather the damage that disrupted it.

Other than "seeming" exceptions (that really aren't exceptions), AoO's don't prevent the actions they interrupt.

So, to fix it:

Bomanz, updated by me wrote:
See, the way you should read that is the prone character attempts to stand, thus provoking the AoO which can be a "trip" combat maneuver. Upon successful or unsuccessful AoO of a trip combat maneuver, the character who was attempting to stand up finishes standing up if he's still alive, and has either another move action to do whatever he wants, or a standard action to fight back.


DM_Blake wrote:
But don't read too much into the bit that says it "interrupts" the action - this seems to imply that an AoO can prevent the action that provokes it, but this is not the case. AoOs never prevent the provoking action. If you move out of a threatened space, provoking an AoO, after you take your damage you keep moving.

The attack itself doesn't interrupt the action which provoked it, true, but since it has a tripping effect (assuming the trip is successful) which is the opposite of the action (going prone vs. standing up), the prone character should lose that single action and stay prone.

Also, if we stick to the rules too stricly we'll have that the PC says: "I try to stand up"; the GM goes for an AoO in an istant when the PC still hasn't really acted, so should not have provoked the AoO, thus entering in a pointless loop.

Scarab Sages

Exactly, a chicken-or-the-egg scenario.

Dude attempts to stand up, this takes motion and wiggling around, which provokes the AoO. Its not like he instantaneously goes from prone to standing. Thus, IMHO, the AoO to re-trip would pretty much render the action of standing up failed, if the trip Combat Maneuver is successful.


At what point does the trip attempt take place?<---rhetorical question
Would it be the moment he raises his head, but his back is still planted or when is almost on his feet. The rules don't say because they never intended for a prone character to be tripped. I don't like the idea of a PC or NPC having the ability permanently keep you down.-->It can make a boss fight too easy or a PC die to easily.
At least with grapple checks you have a chance to escape the grapple, with trip you have nothing, so I suggest keeping with the idea that someone who is already down cant be knocked back down. The machine gun trip fighter(may be the wrong name) was part of the reason trip and the spiked chain were nerfed from 3.5 anyway.


Well, ideas that one likes or not are another matter.
The trip attempt is not a thing that happens in 0,001 seconds and in an unquestionable exact moment (such as when the target raises his head at 20 inches from the ground or whatever like that); simply, the target tries to stand up (starting from getting on his knees or making an instant "Bruce-Lee-stand-up" makes no difference, unless we want to be pointlessy pedant on the matter), the wolf goes with AoO plus trip, it bites ferociously and with its fangs keeps the target down on the ground (or sends him prone again, if we want to put the flavor that he managed to get up entirely).


Irrlicht wrote:

Well, ideas that one likes or not are another matter.

The trip attempt is not a thing that happens in 0,001 seconds and in an unquestionable exact moment (such as when the target raises his head at 20 inches from the ground or whatever like that); simply, the target tries to stand up (starting from getting on his knees or making an instant "Bruce-Lee-stand-up" makes no difference, unless we want to be pointlessy pedant on the matter), the wolf goes with AoO plus trip, it bites ferociously and with its fangs keeps the target down on the ground (or sends him prone again, if we want to put the flavor that he managed to get up entirely).

It is not just an idea, until someone can show me how how to trip a prone character. In the game either you are prone, or you are not prone. Prone by the game definition is on the ground. Using the idea that you can trip a prone character just means I can keep tripping someone until.........

It is not RAW, and definitely not RAI that you can trip someone that is not standing anymore than it is that you can kill a dead person, once again not undead, but dead.

Scarab Sages

I guess I don't see why it needs to be nerfed?

Everyone has a CMD, everyone has a CMB.

SO, dude A on the floor prone tries to stand up, which provokes AoO from dude B adjacent to him. Dude B can then either whomp dude A a good one, or attempt a CM trip to "interrupt" the stand motion. Assuming that dude B has the feat Improved Trip, then all dude A can do is try to stand...but if dude B doesn't have Improved Trip, dude A can attempt to whomp dude B as dude B is attempting to trip dude A (punch him in the franks'n'beans, whatever to prevent the trip).

This scenario to me is a much more realistic type thing...A on floor, gets to his knees and tries to stand, B above him tries to trip to maintain position, A either gets a free shot to the junk/kneecap/gut/whatever of B, or fends off the trip attack (via CMD).

Simple, realistic, and natural kind of flow. Of course, if prone dude has already used his AoO for the turn, and doesnt have Combat Reflexes, its moot, he just relies on his CMD.

Scarab Sages

PRD wrote:

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

.

Not just on the ground, but LYING on the ground. Thus, in the midst of standing up, legs under him/curled up, sitting up, what have you.

Further, lay on the ground in front of me, and I will demonstrate why its far easier for me to bop you a good one on the noggin or continue pushing you down, you are off balance and at a disadvantage.

The condition also shows that you take a -4 penalty to your ac against melee attacks, and since a Trip combat maneuver takes the place of a melee attack, I would further rule that the -4 ac applies to CMD as well.


Themetricsystem wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Same reason you can't pick a naked man's pocket.
*Requisite potty humor joke*

*Pocket*


Bomanz wrote:
Exactly, a chicken-or-the-egg scenario.

You do know that there are very definite answers to this scenario, right? Making it invalid as a metaphor for an unanswerable question (though it is certainly still recognizable as exactly that metaphor, wrong though it may be).

The Spoiler comes last:

If we choose the Christian bible as our one and only true refrence on the subject, then birds came first: "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

But that is somewhat unfulfilling, actually, because chickens are not specified. And chickens don't fly above the earth. Maybe He didn't make chickens until much later - it's not explicit. But those who wish to do so can take that as gospel (pun intended); we can assume this verse includes chickens regardless of whether they are capable of flitting about the firmament of heaven, and this assumption is substantiated in the next verse which specifies "every winged fowl" which most certainly must include chickens.

In any case, the bible trumps all in this debate. Those who onlywant to find their answers within will have already settled this question and further discussion is moot.

For the rest:

The real answer is that the egg came first. Note, I said "the egg" because that is how we always ask the question. "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?".

Clearly, dinosaurs were laying eggs long before there was anything that even remotely looked like a chicken. Fish were laying eggs before that. And insects laid eggs even before fish.

So "the egg" came hundreds of millions of years before the first chicken existed.

But I sense that this is not the answer you wanted. Probably because you inadvertently asked the wrong question. Possibly because it defies the Christian gospel, too.

So let me rephrase your question to what you probably meant: "Which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?"

Now we get to the crux of it. And this question is relevant regardless of whether we want biblical or evolutionary clarity.

The reason for this is simple – the genetic material of a living being does not change during an animal’s lifetime. This means that an animal can’t simply mutate into another animal but it has to give birth (or lay an egg) for a genetic mutation to occur.

The egg was probably laid by a bird similar to a hen but not actually a hen; the genetic differences might have been slight, but genetically speaking, that first egg came from something that was chicken-like, but not quite a chicken.

Put another way, the living organism inside the eggshell would have had the same DNA as the chicken it would develop into, not the DNA of his parents.

And since, in the eggshell, it's merely an embryo and not a chicken, by the definitions of these very words, the first chicken egg existed before the first chicken

Samuel Butler had a good answer: "A chicken is just one egg’s way of making another egg." So evidently even he thought the egg must have come first.

Me, I think the rooster came first.

Side note: It's worth mentioning that "chicken" comes before "egg" in the dictionary, and also in the wording of the question itself: "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?", so if this is a "trick question", then in the literary sense, the chicken comes first.

Scarab Sages

what are you getting at, in a nutshell?

Dark Archive

AvalonXQ wrote:
I don't see any rules support for the idea that you cannot initiate a trip attempt against a prone opponent.

If someone provokes an AoO by standing up, does that attack consider them still prone or already standing?

Do they suffer the AC penalty from being prone or does the AoO happen after they've stood?

If you can trip a prone opponent, you can do this:
You trip someone using Greater Trip. You make your AoO because they fell down. You get a critical hit. Because you also have Tripping Strike, you get to make a trip attack. It succeeds so you get to make another AoO (which you can because you have combat Reflexes). From one trip attack, you just made a trip attack, an AoO, a second trip, and another AoO. They better hope you don't get another critical hit when you get your AoO when they stand up.

You can trip someone who is prone because they can't fall down. They've already fallen. There's nothing trip. If a player in my game asked if they could do this and to see where in the rules it said no, I'd reach across the table and punch them.

Next, the person will be asking if the penalties for being Dazed or Stunned stack with being Dazed or Stunned a second time.

Liberty's Edge

Just as an FYI, trip locking is actually covered in the FAQs.

When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?

When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Callarek wrote:

Just as an FYI, trip locking is actually covered in the FAQs.

When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?

When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10

The reasoning behind this FAQ (i.e., the Core Rules on AoO's) was stated in the very first reply to the OP. Then we had something like half a dozen people either asking if there was any rule supporting the claim or stating that no such rule existed.

And every one of them, having access to the messageboards, also had access to the full Core Rules and the FAQ.

Pro Tip: before you ask someone if there are rules supporting their position (or claiming that there are not), look. Most rules questions take the form of "how does X interact with Y" and nine times out of ten, the answer exists in the Core Rules for either X or Y, or sometimes both.

And if you're feeling really inclined to apply some level of rigor to your beliefs, take anything that wasn't obvious from reading the Core Rules and look for it in the FAQ.

It's totally understandable not to constantly peruse the CRB and FAQ. It's far less understandable to not check the most obviously-relevant sections when asked a specific question.

EDIT: Sorry if the above seems a bit harsh, but it's just such a simple, easy-to-avoid pitfall that happens so often that it's become a pet peeve for me.


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If I can trip someone who is prone, then my next character will be a min-maxed Dex character with Combat Reflexes and Greater Trip.

I'm thinking Elf. 20 point buy.

10 STR ... 0
18 DEX (+1, +2, 21)... 17
14 CON (-2, 12)... 5
INT 12 (+2, 14) ... 2
WIS 10 ... 0
CHA 7 ... -4

1. Agile Maneuvers
1. Weapon Focus (Guisarme)
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Combat Expertise
4. Improved Trip
5. ~
6. Greater Trip

I pair up with other PCs who min-max Dex and take Combat Reflexes.

In every combat, we run up and get into position-- we all want to be threatening one or more people in my reach. I will trip, on the provoke I will trip, on the provoke I will trip, on the provoke I will trip, on the provoke I will trip, on the provoke I will attack or trip depending on amount of Attacks of Opportunity remaining between my allies. I will then save my final attack of opportunity in the round for when my opponent stands up.

Assuming a 5-man party and one wizard and assuming good rolls, this should get us 10+ attacks per round between the two or more characters with Combat Reflexes.

This should be fair at high levels.

EDIT: We'll also take Paired Opportunists and Swap Places as teamwork feats so that we can maximize the amount of Attacks of Opportunity between every character. Our goal is to use all 20 attacks of opportunity our party has.

For teammates, I'm thinking a min-maxed Dex monk, a ninja, a two-weapon warrior and a wizard. The wizard is there to put enlarge person on me so I can trip huge+ creatures.

If everyone min-maxes Dex, we can have a party average of 32 Dexterity between 4 people. The wizard does not count.

EDIT EDIT: The wizard should be a diviner wizard and he should take Telekinetic Charge at least three times per day so he can place late initiative rollers into AoO formation to maximize AoOs taken.

Assume level 16.

1. Everyone moves into position threatening the gargantuan dragon. I move up and drink a potion of enlarge person. The monk, ninja and Two-weapon warrior attack for 4 attacks.
2. The dragon full attacks us or something. Oh, we should also all have Step Up and Following Step and Step Up and Strike. So, he full attacks and steps away crying. He takes 5 attacks to the face (1 from me, 1 from monk, 1 from rogue, 2 from two-weapon warrior). 5 attacks Now, we'll ignore this because it counts as one of our AoOs for the round and we actually want him to stand up because the monk has a class feature that gives him ki points for making the GM break into hysterics. 0 attacks.
3. I full attack after the wizard casts haste. Trip, provoke trip (1), provoke trip (2), provoke trip (3), provoke trip (4), provoke trip (5), provoke trip (6), provoke trip (7), provoke trip (8). I then finish attacking-- attack attack attack. 7 attacks
4. The party novas into an AoO festival. Every person in the group sans the wizard, assuming 28 Dex, gets 8 attacks of opportunity. So, 31 attacks. But we're not counting the Two-weapon warrior's double strikes, so 39 attacks.
5. The monk opens up with a trip, giving everyone but me another attack. I eschew it just to err on the side of caution, a claim that the game master will later sputter with a "why are you doing this" look on his face. 43 attacks. He then full-attacks with haste for 7 strikes 50 attacks. He'd spend a ki point but then everyone would start flailing around and talking about him breaking the rules so whatever.
6. The TWF ninja goes invisible and then full-attacks with haste for 8 strikes 58 attacks.
7. The Two-weapon warrior full attacks with haste for 8 strikes. 66 attacks.
8. The dragon, assuming it is even alive stands up. We all get an AoO on it for daring to stand 71 attacks I trip, and everyone gets an AoO on it again, including myself. I attack it. 76 attacks. I actually have an AoO left over for if it tries to run. I will use Stand Still just to be a #@$%^^!.

Is this pretty much in line with what people are arguing should be allowed here

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT:
We're all using d6 weapons except for me with the guisarme. That is 2d6. The ninja has sneak attack. We're all using +2 weapons except for me with my +5 weapon. I have weapon training.
71d6 + 10d6 + 64d6 + 10 + 25 + 142 + 20 + 20 ⇒ (2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 3, 3, 2, 5, 6, 6, 4, 5, 2, 2, 5, 2, 1, 3, 5, 3, 1, 5, 6, 5, 6, 5, 4, 4, 5, 6, 1, 5, 4, 2, 1, 4, 4, 4, 1, 3, 2, 2, 6, 1, 6, 5, 2, 6, 5, 1, 1, 3, 3, 6, 5, 3, 3, 5, 6, 1, 2, 6, 2, 1, 3, 6, 2, 1, 1, 1) + (5, 1, 6, 6, 5, 1, 4, 3, 3, 5) + (2, 4, 5, 3, 4, 3, 1, 4, 3, 4, 4, 1, 1, 4, 2, 6, 2, 3, 1, 4, 1, 1, 4, 6, 4, 2, 5, 3, 1, 5, 2, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, 4, 1, 1, 2, 1, 4, 3, 2, 4, 6, 6, 3, 5, 3, 6, 5, 5, 3, 4, 3, 1) + 10 + 25 + 142 + 20 + 20 = 711

Assuming all of those hit, yeah, that kills everything in the game. I bet we could actually miss half of those attacks and still kill the ancient brass dragon.

35d6 + 4d6 + 32d6 + 5 + 10 + 70 + 10 + 10 ⇒ (3, 1, 5, 1, 2, 6, 1, 5, 2, 1, 3, 1, 1, 5, 2, 5, 5, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 3, 2, 1, 5, 5, 2, 1, 3, 5, 2, 3, 3, 2) + (3, 4, 5, 5) + (1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 5, 2, 6, 5, 2, 1, 6, 4, 4, 2, 1, 5, 6, 6, 3, 6, 1, 5, 4, 2, 5, 3, 5, 1, 2) + 5 + 10 + 70 + 10 + 10 = 337

Dang. According to my bestiary, he has -13 hp out of 25 CON. We didn't kill him outright and tenderize his corpse like I expected.


As Jiggy pointed out, the FAQ does say you cannot Trip someone who is Prone. I wish I had thought of looking in the FAQ first. I also agree that, because of Trip Lock, it makes sense not to give someone the ability to Trip a Prone person.

However, my first thought on the situation was that you should handle it like an AoO from Spell Casting. To quote the Injury section of Concentration Checks; "If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect." In other words, you interrupt the person mid-action with a chance of it going either way.

I would have said a successful Trip while you are ‘trying to Stand-up” would require a Reflex Save. A failed save would give the same result as a failed Concentration Check; you wasted the action and in this case, stay Prone. This creates parallelism between the rules.

I know AoOs usually happen before the action, but sometimes it just does not make sense when no one is moving between squares.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
Callarek wrote:

Just as an FYI, trip locking is actually covered in the FAQs.

When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?

When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10

The reasoning behind this FAQ (i.e., the Core Rules on AoO's) was stated in the very first reply to the OP. Then we had something like half a dozen people either asking if there was any rule supporting the claim or stating that no such rule existed.

And every one of them, having access to the messageboards, also had access to the full Core Rules and the FAQ.

Jiggy, I know you have your geek feathers ruffled and such, but in a tongue-in-cheek reply in the spirit of your own reply, I'd like to point out that this thread is from July 2010, and the FAQ entry is from August 2010. You have access to a calendar, so should realize that August comes after July when these months come during the same year. :D

In seriousness, trip lock discussions come up regularly despite FAQ entries. This was true in 3.5 as well. It is a fairly common part of the education of a player in understanding how AoOs work, when they take place, etc.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Howie23 wrote:
I'd like to point out that this thread is from July 2010, and the FAQ entry is from August 2010. You have access to a calendar, so should realize that August comes after July when these months come during the same year. :D

/facepalm

Touche', good goat. Color me humbled.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The age of their responses doesn't change the fact that they are wrong!

I am not going to delete my post out of respect for the amount of time it took me to think that up.


Clearly (per the FAQ) you can't trip a prone opponent with an AoO. What about a non-prone opponent who draws an AoO though? A PC using the trip maneuver could presumably substitute a trip attempt for his or her melee attack. What about a wolf or cheetah which has the Trip property on its bite though? I've heard a lot of folks say that this can't be used on AoOs since the trip attempt is a free action and the wolf can't take a free action when it isn't his turn. I feel that the AoO interrupts the normal flow of actions and allows the wolf to act, including the free action for the trip.

Some quotes from the PRD:
"Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return."

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack..."

"An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."

I'm not saying I'm 100% right and there's no other way to interpret this, just that it makes sense to me that the wolf should be able to trip you on an AoO. Similarly I'd think that a crab or crocodile which gets an AoO on you should be able to Grab you.


Yes, when using a AoO on a non-Prone target you can use Trip (unless it is a snake or something).

There is just some stupid loop hole around Greater Trip that lets people create a do-loop if a Prone target attempts to stand and get a AoO-Trip-AoO-Trip-AoO-Trip-etc. cycle going. It would have been as simple as saying that 'Greater Trip can be used only once per target per round' or something. Instead they decided that you can not knock a 'Prone target Prone'. Again they could have just as easily said 'The stand-up attempt is not sucessful but does not count as being knock Prone. You are just maintaining the Prone condition.'

It is a common tactic to sweep someones legs as they try to stand up. They should have found a way for the rules to allow it, without abusing it.

I should find a video where an attack dog does not allow a person to stand because the dog keeps knocking the target down.


Hmmm. Can't a provocation only provoke once per round? Even if you used two move actions to move, for example, wouldn't you provoke attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares once a round from each opponent?

I don't see why being tripped twice should be different.

Liberty's Edge

Troubleshooter wrote:

Hmmm. Can't a provocation only provoke once per round? Even if you used two move actions to move, for example, wouldn't you provoke attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares once a round from each opponent?

I don't see why being tripped twice should be different.

An AoO is provoked for each opportunity. There is some language about actions that lead some to interpret it as only being one AoO per action; this often comes up in conversations about full round attacks with ranged weapons. Movement is a special case. It is not an example of the general rule, but often results in misunderstanding.


Ok. Let me see if this is right.

1. My fighter (with Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip) trips the orc.
2. On the Orc's turn, he attempts to stand up.
3. My fighter gets an AoO before the Orc gains his feet. So, the attack the Orc gains all the benefits of striking a prone character; the Orc's AC is at -4.
4. Because I am striking a still technically prone character, I cannot use another trip action. However, next round my turn comes up first and, since the Orc is now standing, I can trip attack all over again.

Is this written down in a Paizo book clearly?

thanks


GoldEdition42 wrote:

Ok. Let me see if this is right.

1. My fighter (with Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip) trips the orc.
2. On the Orc's turn, he attempts to stand up.
3. My fighter gets an AoO before the Orc gains his feet. So, the attack the Orc gains all the benefits of striking a prone character; the Orc's AC is at -4.
4. Because I am striking a still technically prone character, I cannot use another trip action. However, next round my turn comes up first and, since the Orc is now standing, I can trip attack all over again.

Is this written down in a Paizo book clearly?

thanks

Holy thread necromancy on a previously necromanced thead Batman.

Your order of opperations is correct.

The rules are not written clearly:

Combat Section wrote:


An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).


After posting this I didn't realize that another Trip thread was in question on the boards.

I wonder if one day someone will re-post the very first thread. It would probably be about Paladins.......


I feel like keeping an opponent down should be allowed, as per the incorrect interpretations of the rules above, and the care to keep the game fair should be invested in making it difficult to be dominant enough to always succeed in your trip check and/or easy to build a near-invulnerable defense against tripping. A lot of creatures are immune or highly resistant to tripping as it is. You could have feats like "Spider Dance" - +4 dodge bonus to CMD vs. trip, no penalty to CMD while prone; "Ground Grappler" - +4 to CMB and CMD while prone. You could even come up with detailed rules for full mount, side control, etc.


you apparently never got chain tripped in 3.5 ... had a friendly druid enlarge me, a wolf tripped me, and I could not get up or move away. so got knocked unconcious, which ended my rage, and my poor barbarian died quickly after.

Shadow Lodge

Irrlicht wrote:

Say I have a Wolf (its attack is bite plus trip) which tripped a PC.

The PC tries to get up from prone in his turn, so the Wolf gets an attack of opportunity; this brings the following questions:
1) Is the trip effect added to the AoO or not?
2) If it is, and if the trip is another success, does the character lose the move action he used to try to stand up or is it still available to him, since the Wolf made his AoO & trip before his actual action?

My guess is the answers are:
1) Yes.
2) The PC loses that single move action.
But I just wanted to be sure.

If not you should be able to use stand still to keep them down.


... is the trip added to it. yes. since its a rider ability.
however, at the time the trip happens, the target is prone (+4 to hit, and to the trip attempt) but since is prone, cannot become double prone.

Then the action provoking the AoO takes effect (standing up).

So at the end we have:
1 person standing up from prone and being damaged.

edit: Assuming 2 things. the wolf hit with the bite.
2nd: that the bite did not drop hp to -1 or less.

Liberty's Edge

Beware the thrice-necroed thread OF DOOM !!!

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