Martial Artist core class


Homebrew and House Rules

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gamer-printer wrote:
Stuff about ToB

Frankly, I'm not the least bit influenced by the ToB. I have no idea what you're on about. I only skimmed the book and took away the idea that it was far more complicated than I generally wanted my melee classes to be. I mostly just looked at the feats. :)

I've admitted that the class is a step in that direction; but I don't think it's AS complicated as ToB. I seemed to recall other publishers making use of stances (maybe as feats?)too, potentially even WOTC at some point, I dunno... Anyway, I think stances are a fairly obvious self-buff that any martial class should have access to either by virtue of a class ability or through feats designed for the purpose.

*EDIT*

I just realized that you're talking to VM. Sorry!

Well, the thing about stances... stands, I guess. I think they're pretty cool and the urge to run from them just because it's the conventional wisdom that we do so... Eh.


Awesome, the entry pimping worked!
Alright lets see:

@Odraude:
It is Ki based, that's what Technique points are, except Kuma does'nt want to change the name to Ki points and I'm keeping it in line with him. It's his mechanic after all. And you are absolutely right about the atributes.
I'm already copying stances and techniques from the martial artist, so yeah... But seriously the reason they have an underpowered sneak attack is the same why they get evasion and uncanny dodge so late, and why the capstone is so similar. The people on other threads are right in saying that a ninja is similar to a rogue. But he is also different with a more martial arts/mistical training, so his sneak attack is not as good and and his defenses evolve slower but he compenseates with the stances and techniques. In fact with silent fist you can spend a point to increase you sneak attack, I haven't made a level-by-level calculation but at twenty level you should do as much sneak attack as the rogue if you spend the point. The capstone is the one I'm most willing to change if anyone has a cool ninja-ish idea (I'm thinking on stealing the splitting power from ciretose's ninja...). Also I just thought of this right now, but maybe a couple of techniques could be "if you hit with a sneak attack you can spend a point to...". Seriously Kuma can we change technique points to Ki points? I't would be easier to write, and ki is talked about in most RL martial arts so it doesn't have to mean techniques are mistical in nature.
Shuriken is mostly for flavor, because what all ninja in all medias have in similar is they all have shurikens and other types of throwing daggers. Besides I already did that with the samurai and stealing from three classes starts to get confusing...
I'm working on specific stances and techniques and I promise you some stealth and disquise based will be made. And don't forget Faceless Opponent that makes people unable to remember you as long as you pretend you are uninportant, and is basically Hentonjutsu as I pointed in another thread. And thanks for pointing Kuji-kiri, I'll see what I can do wiyh it.

@Kuma:
Thanks :)
Also Chokeslam is pretty good and can also work as a piledriver.

@Game-printer:
It's cool I've been going to all the ninja threads see if I make people come here, so I can't fault another for doing the same. If you're going to use some of our ideas can I see your samurai, to see if there's something I can use
I'm (We're) not using To9S terminology, but martial arts terminology. Not our fault WotC got there first and muddyed the waters for the martial arts fans among us. And I'll admit some of the mechanics are similar (They were on the right path, but trying to give levels like spells threw everithing off rails), but Kuma managed to make it so at the same time it can be used to make either a realistic martial arts user or a fantasy (maybe even animesque) with weird powers one or even a grapple based one instead of a striking based one.


Fiiiine. We can change technique to ki. I'm just a little worried that it will lead to unforeseen difficulties if people multiclass.


Woohoo!!!
Wait, dificulties with multiclass? What difficulties would be different with a change of names? Unless you mean multiclassing with the monk, but I'm gonna substitute the monk completely with the martial artist, so I'm not going to have a problem with that. After I finish the ninja and the samurai I'm thinking of making PrCs, including one for martial artists with a more mystical approach, I'm going to name that "the Monk" :) It's a good name for a PrC don't you think?

Also, what do you think of a stance that increases your number of attacks of opportunity per round by 1?

And is this technique underpowered? It has a flavor that I like, but I don't know if it is something someone would use much...
Hidden Weapons: When making a sleight of hands roll to conceal an item or weapon the ninja can commit a ki point to hide it from all senses. As long as the item is hidden he is considered weightless and if it has an aura (magical/holy/unholy) this aura is suppressed until the item is draw. The item can be retrieved and draw with an immediate action. As long as the item is hidden the ninja can’t regain the ki point.


VM mercenario wrote:
As long as the item is hidden he is considered weightless ...

So...if he hides the item, he suddenly weighs nothing?


If you guys have some awesome classes in the works, you're welcome to submit them to the Pathfinder Database


Okie doke, well if anyone else has anything to add, now is the time. I'll be making the final fiddly bits go right* this evening and posting a link to the final google doc version. (* like replacing technique points with ki points)


I still wanted a stance that improved your Stunning Fist (the Stunning Fist Stance I mentioned on the first batch of suggestions) but I really couldn't figure out how to make it work...
Except from that the class looks finished.


Okay, breaking my head for an idea this is the best I got:

Stance:
Intercepting Fist: The name of this stance is a shout-out to Bruce Lee, it needs a better flavor text. If you have the Stunning Fist feat the duration of the stun is doubled. You gain a number of extra uses of Stunning Fist equal to the modifier of your Style ability. While in this stance the martial artist can’t use finishers. A master of this stance gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 2 rounds, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. He can choose to make the target fatigued, sickened for 1 minute or staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. Once the martial artist leaves this stance he cannot reenter it before resting for eight hours.

That's the best I got.

Ninja and Samurai will be fully finished by saturday. Sunday tops.


VM mercenario wrote:

Okay, breaking my head for an idea this is the best I got:

Stance:
Intercepting Fist:

I'll see what I can do. I have an idea for something but I'm too tired to go into it now.


New Ninja Techniques

spoiler:

Vanish: By spending one Ki point the ninja becomes invisible for one turn. Starting at 11 level the ninja can choose to become ethereal for a turn instead.

Ninja Skill: The ninja is trained to remain calm and steady even in the most adverse conditions. When making a skill roll the ninja can spent a Ki point, if he does so he can take 10 in the skill even if stress and distractions would prevent her from doing so.

Expert Poison: The ninja is trained on the use of poisons during battle. The ninja can spend a point from his Ki pool to apply a dose of poison to his weapon as a free action. The Fortitude DC of a poison applied this way is increased by 2.

Swift Disguise: The ninja can disguise himself so fast it almost appears as magic. The ninja can spend 1 Ki point and a move action to create a disguise.

Shadow Strike: The ninja is trained to take all possible advantage from a distracted opponent. When making a sneak attack the ninja can spend a Ki point to add one of three effects to his attack. The choice is made before the attack roll is made and the point is spent even if the attack fails. He can choose one of these effects: stun the opponent for 1 round, reduce his base speed by 10 feet for one hour or add a +5 to the DC of all skill checks done by the opponent for a day. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Will save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ninja level + the ninja Int modifier.

Ki Block: When using a sneak attack the ninja can attack the ki pathways of the enemy. When making a sneak attack the ninja can spend a Ki point to reduce either the DR or SR of an opponent by 2 for a day. The choice is made before the attack roll is made and the point is spent even if the attack fails. Successive uses of this technique are cumulative. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Will save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ninja level + the ninja Int modifier.

New Ninja Stances

spoiler:

Nine Seals: Practitioners of this stance can use a quick series of hand signals and a quick meditation to enter a trance-like state. While in this stance the ninja gains +2 natural armor bonus and cannot become fatigued, shaken, sickened, dazzled or dazed. The focus required to keep this stance prevents the ninja from attacking with full force and he takes a -2 penalty to his attack and damage rolls. A master of this stance doubles the natural armor bonus and cannot be exhausted, nauseated, frightened or stunned.

Art of Disguise: With intense mental training the ninja can create a disguise so deep even magic has difficult piercing. While in this stance the ninja gains a +1 bonus for every 4 ninja levels to his disguise check and to any bluff checks made to keep the disguise. A master of this stance can project a false alignment over his own, this false alignment can be one step different in one axis. Magic and abilities that detect alignment, such as the paladin detect evil ability, a protection against chaos spell or certain magic items that only work for lawful characters, will read the projected alignment. For instance a NE ninja could pass as a true Neutral peasant and even a Paladins detect evil would show him as not-evil.

Serpents Fang: This stance focuses in quick and precise attacks to blood vessels and organs in order to inflict poisons where they will do more damage. Any poison the ninja uses while in this stance has a +1 increase to the save DC, and add +1 to the number of saves necessary for cure. The precision necessary for this stance leaves gaps in the ninja defense and grants a -2 penalty to AC. A master of this stance doubles the increase to the save DC and number of saves necessary for cure and doubles the frequency of the poison.


The ninja still needs more stances :(

Kuma, I need your opinion, are these techniques and stances too powerful? What, if anything, do you think should be changed?


VM mercenario wrote:

New Ninja Techniques

** spoiler omitted **...

TECHNIQUES

Vanish: Does your ninja class have hide in plain sight? You might make that the weaker ability and invisibility the mastery. Ethereal is awfully strong and not really part of ninja legend.

Shadow Strike: Kind of a random collection of effects and a name that is cool but doesn't seem connected to any of them. I get what you were going for in general but you might cut this one out. Stun steals stunning fist's thunder, 1 hour hamper is really powerful, I'm not sure about the +5 to DCs but it seems odd given that there aren't many skills to use in combat unless you're a caster; and arguably stunning would be a better choice for a caster - except that the whole ability is predicated on a caster's main save.

Ki Block: Really interesting. Do you get to choose whether DR or SR is affected if the enemy has both?

The rest of the techniques: Looks good.

STANCES

Nine Seals: is very cool and I might like to adapt it for Undying Champion if that's okay.

Art of Disguise: Very nice.

Serpent's Fang: Also very cool, I like it.


Kuma wrote:


Nine Seals: is very cool and I might like to adapt it for Undying Champion if that's okay.

Twelve Seals (Brilliant Tactician, Undying Champion, Wise Warrior): Practitioners of this stance can use a quick series of hand signals and a quick meditation to enter a trance-like state. While in this stance the ninja gains +2 natural armor bonus and becomes immune to the fatigued, shaken, sickened, stunned, dazzled, or dazed conditions. The focus required to keep this stance prevents the ninja from attacking with full force and he takes a -2 penalty to his attack and damage rolls. A master of this stance doubles the natural armor bonus and cannot be exhausted, nauseated, frightened, blinded, deafened, or paralyzed.

Is this okay? I wanted to move some things around and give credit for the idea. Your version was fine though.


Vanish: I'll leave as is since you only get it for one round and is more of a get-away card than anything. Also was one of my favorites abilities from the Complete adventurer's ninja.

Shadow Strike: Yeah I did that because I'm changing the cap from the ninja class (was cuuting to much on the rogue). I'm going to keep the theme but come up with new effects. Also I think the Shadow Dancer has an ability with the same name. Gotta remember to check that.

Ki Block: You get to choose and if you have the Ki to spare is stackable. Any idea how to change the wording to clarify that?

Twelve seals: Ohh you increased the number of conditions you become immune. I thought of doing that but wasn't sure. Just change the name back to nine seals, is based on the Kuji-kiri some people asked about and I like to leave this little shout-outs. I'ts why I want a "Intercepting Fist" stance that deals with the Stunning Fist (If anyone is curious I like to think of the stunning fist as having a similar motion to the one inch punch).
I like your version better and it can be one of the stances that both martial artists and ninjas share.

I'm kinda burned out on the samurai, making stances for him is a little harder than what I imagined would be. So I'm taking the week off of it and this weekend I'm going to dive back with a Kurosawa marathon followed by rereadin Rurouny Kenshin, that oughta get my brain flowing on samurai ideas.


Sorry to necro this thread but I never did post the google docs link I kept promising:

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1JhcCFGAA5siYyewC534bBReRrvVRydfLD iLqwoU_MXo&hl=en&authkey=CK3unYYO&pli=1#

This is a view-only class description with a standard level chart. Has everything.

The only errata I can think of off the top of my head is that the penalty to attack with the finisher "End It" should be -10 (-15 is just too high when it's already got to be at least -5 due to being a finisher) and twelve seals should be nine seals again per VM's request.


I don't understand why people have a hard time seeing the Fighter as a martial art class.

Impact conditioning, striking, versatile training, bravery, high physical attributes, the ability to run and jump in their armor, the ability to learn high level techniques (feats), killer instinct (critical focus), and on and on.

Real martial arts isn't about petty techniques or mystical abilities. It is about a high degree of physical and spiritual training, the development of killer instinct, the ability to fight, and being brave. The fighter is all of those things (except for maybe the spiritual training part, but that has more to do with the failure of players to take feats for anything other than spamming damage).


cranewings wrote:

I don't understand why people have a hard time seeing the Fighter as a martial art class.

Impact conditioning, striking, versatile training, bravery, high physical attributes, the ability to run and jump in their armor, the ability to learn high level techniques (feats), killer instinct (critical focus), and on and on.

Real martial arts isn't about petty techniques or mystical abilities. It is about a high degree of physical and spiritual training, the development of killer instinct, the ability to fight, and being brave. The fighter is all of those things (except for maybe the spiritual training part, but that has more to do with the failure of players to take feats for anything other than spamming damage).

Actually, it's my contention that the fighter is a much better martial artist than the monk. My issue is the fact that monk is terrible at being a specialized "mystic" or unarmed fighter; despite that being more or less its role. The reason I came up with this class was that it's annoying to have, say, heavy armor proficiency when I don't plan to wear armor. I want to have a different ability instead of armor proficiency (not in addition to, instead of), and fighter doesn't offer that. So I made this class up.


Given that the APG has been out for a while (and the way the RPG Superstar 2011 is going) - I think you should create not one, but *two* martial arts classes. An archetype for the fighter, and an archetype for the monk.

The fighter archetype would focus on making the core abilities of the fighter more monk friendly (I don't think you need to change the unarmed damage for that; or at most set it to 1d6 - as the training and specialization bonuses stack up heavily in favor of the fighter's damage output).

The monk archetype would focus on reducing the mysticism to the extend that he still is a monk - but focused on the physical aspects rather than the spiritual ones.

If I can think of some nice examples, I'll post/link them :)


I am finally working on a martial arts specialist fighter for my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, called the Heimin Bushi. Heimin is the Commoner Caste of Kaidan, which as in Japan is restricted from wearing heavy armor, as only the Samurai caste is allowed to wear heavy armor. However the Heimin Bushi is an archetype for Fighter.

Maneuver Training (Ex): at 3rd level, a heimin bushi is granted a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD, this bonus increases by +1 for each four levels above this. This ability replaces Armor Training 1.

Katta (Ex): at 5th level, a heimin bushi must select unarmed combat and one of the martial arts specialties available to him: aikijutsu, jujutsu or karate as his primary weapon group. This replaces Weapon Training 1.

Maneuver Focus (Ex): at 11th level, a heimin bushi loses his penalty to CMB and CMD for opponents up to two size categories greater, with those larger than two size categories, as if they were only one size greater and up. This replaces Armor Training 3.

Maneuver Mastery (Ex): at 19th level, whenever an opponent makes an attack at the heimin bushi, as an immediate action, a heimin bushi may perform any combat maneuver he possesses. If successful this changes the heimin bushi as the attacker, instead of the target of the attack. This replaces Armor Mastery.

Then, still in the rough draft stage, so it will probably undergo major changes, but I am working on three different martial arts feat chains:

Katta - martial arts techniques:

Aikijutsu - must select improved grapple and improved unarmed strike as prerequisite feats to qualify.

Paralyzing Pin - following a successful grapple attempt, with an attempt to pin by targetting pressure points on your opponent, causing your opponent's limb arm or leg to become paralyzed for 1 round plus 1 round per STR modifier.

Improved Paralyzing Pin - following a successful grapple attempt, with an attempt to pin by targetting pressure points on your opponet, you can cause your opponent to be paralyzed for 1 round plus 1 round per STR modifier.

Weapon Trap - using a sai in combination with unarmed strikes, you can attempt to trap your opponents weapon on the first successful strike against you by making a grapple attempt against your opponent's weapon. If successful use grapple checks as a means of holding your opponent's weapon to prevent further strikes against you. If you have improved sundering, you can use this ability in an attempt to break your opponent's weapon with a bonus +1 for each 4 levels beyond 5th level.

Jujutsu - must select improved trip and improved unarmed strike as prerequisite feats to qualify.

Ki Throw - as per new feat in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide

Improved Ki Throw - as per new feat in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide

Greater Ki Throw - Improved Ki Throw is a prerequisite, throw an opponent into one or more opponents in an adjacent square that works as a bull rush onto opponents targetted by the opponent being thrown.

Karate - must select improved unarmed strike and power attack as prerequisite feats to qualify.

Iron Hand - ???

Roundhouse Kick - ???

Stunning Fist - as per Pathfinder Core.

Also to VM, very late in answering your request, but here is one of my samurai classes (note in Kaidan Samurai is a social caste, not a class, so my Samurai caste includes four different classes, only 2 of them specifically martial classes.)

Hatamoto (cavalier archetype) is a cavalier archetype but in many ways similar to the Ultimate Combat Samurai.

Yojimbo (ranger archetype) - look at the latter posts of the following thread, at first I was designing an alternate class, but it has been revised to just an archetype.

Yojimbo archetype

GP

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