At CL 14 the Phantom Steed gains the ability to fly at its maximum movement of 100. The question is: Is this speed an absolute or can the Phantom Steed hustle ie treating the movement rate as a base rate? And if so, does this then translate to being able to hustle in flight?
With the exception of Overland Flight (which only mentions hustle anyway), the rules on spells that grant flying movement (excluding polymorphing/transformational spells) are not specific about whether the speeds granted are base speeds or not. If base speeds, then presumeably movement can be accelerated by hustling or running. I'd like to see a clarification on this in FAQ or errata to save time in debate at the game table.
Hunter
IIRC if it doesn't say it gives a fly speed (or a swim speed or whatever) it doesn't. Like the fly spell allows you to fly at a speed of 60 feet and can only do things with it mentioned in the spell. If a spell would grant a base speed of a given type you can do everything you would be able to with your ground speed.
I'm fairly sure it's an abosolute move.. the Phantom Steed isn't a true creature but more of a spell effect. I wouldn't allow the hustle because it's so damm fast as it is.
Thanks (and to Betatrack) this is pretty much the general impression I have from a GM point of view. Pity there isn't a clear statement in the PF Core somewhere.
It also means that using Fly, Overland Flight or Phantom Steed is a really bad way to try outrun short term pursuit (unless rugged terrain, cliffs or water etc. are involved) since any conventional ground locomotion can probably manage to keep a flier in sight. Max speed of Phantom Steed is 10 miles per hour at overland rates.cheers,
Hunter
Well by making it a magical speed and not part of normal movement rules you do not have to worry about getting tired. You also do not have to limit how high in the air you go.
So using these two things in common it should be pretty easy to loose someone who has to run along the ground to keep up. And perception checks have a distance factor. Can you make it into the clouds? Are there trees or buildings in the area. Lots of places to hide. Even in a clear sky, just go really high and fly towards the sun and you should be able to loose followers.
Also, if you have not seen the GMG yet, they have chase seen rules. And it specifically states as an example how if one side has flight and the other does not it can modify the chase mechanics to give the more mobile movement side an advantage.
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I have been considering and crunching the numbers on the idea of giving the various forms of magical flight a 5x speed multiplier for overland travel in my campaign.
This would give a phantom steed, a third level spell, cast by a 14th level wizard an overland flight cruising speed of 50 MPH.* This is close to, but quite as fast as, a wind walk, which grants 60 MPH movement overland for a similar duration, and is a sixth level cleric spell. Overland flight, a fifth level sor/wiz spell, would gain an, er, overland flight speed of 20 MPH (up from its book speed of 4 MPH).**
I think if I adopt this house rule I will exclude the flying phantom steed (treating it as a winged creature) as it would otherwise become the preferred spell for overland flight.
* Using the ever-so-handy convention that a Pathfinder mile = 6000 feet.
** I note that, as written, the flying phantom steed is a faster overland flight spell than overland flight despite being two levels lower.
You don't go by miles per hour in combat you go by tactical move speed. At those descriptions, speeds of 90 and 100 are nothing to sneeze at. And circumstances can take much into account. Casting Fly and jumping off a third story window still gives you plenty of advantage over someone who's limited to ground movement and the only way to get fast access to a horse is by taking a gravity express. If you're escaping someone in an urban environment you only need a few short moments of speed advantage to get enough cover for an invisibility spell. (Fly is the obvious advantage spell here) Checking on it by the way Overland Flight specifically allows for hustling which means you can cover 64(roughly 72 for Phantom Steed) miles in an 8 hour flight period, a very respectable speed compared to foot or mounted traffic.Also note that Phantom Steed isn't that suitable as a getaway spell unless you already have it on hand... the casting time is 10 minutes. Having it on hand may very well mean that someone chasing you might opt to blast the steed itself as it's rather obvious in that situation.
Thank you for your time and input, but I'm well aware of the distinction between tactical and overland movement rates and each of the individual points you have raised (some of which I pointed out in my original and previous posts). My query has nothing to do with how and under what circumstances each individual spell is best used. Probably I should have limited my original query to the simplest expression of whether any official ruling stated whether Phantom Steed's movement should be treated as absolute or as a movement to which hustle could be applied.
Since its not specified in the spell description, the implication is that the speed is absolute - which is how I treat it.
And I agree that in terms of tactical movement 100 is fast - but for overland movement, 10 miles per hour really isn't (okay, so its magical and doesn't tire, and if you are CL 14 the flight ability allows you to evade ground obstacles and pursuit by climbing etc.) - too bad if you meet an aerial threat ... but that's another adventure waiting for our bold heroes ...
The general point (for below CL 14) about the lack of speed above a trotting horse is that even a middle distance runner (not even a monk :p) could overtake during a road ambush (for example).
Anyway, I think delabarre's approach looks interesting. I'll check that out.
At CL 14 the Phantom Steed gains the ability to fly at its maximum movement of 100. The question is: Is this speed an absolute or can the Phantom Steed hustle ie treating the movement rate as a base rate?
The phantom steed is a "quasi-real creature", so I'd say the movement rate is the same as the movement rate for any other creature (e.g. the phantom steed can double move).
And if so, does this then translate to being able to hustle in flight?
I guess so, but it would take nonlethal damage as normal.