Right, so in my Savage Tide game, I have a summoner (hey Leo).
His summon, a fishman-esque critter named Killwright, is currently the top dog in the party. A party that also includes a sahuagain alchemist and an immature storm giant.
The player is great, and knows that Summonner is currently looking fairly overpowered compared to the other PCs. He knows that when the APG comes out, there may be nerfs, and he's cool with that.
So here is some basic info about Killwright (party level is 6 atm):
Biped
Large Size
Extra Limbs x2
Claws x2
Improved Damage (claws)
BaB +5
Str 26
Main feat is Improved Natural Attack (Claws) and Weapon Focus (Claws). Killwright is dishing out 4 attacks at +13 to hit, and they do 2d6+8 each. Very few CR 6 critters can hold up to that kind of attack barrage, so its starting to get a little show-stealing, unless the fight starts at range or flying. Add on enlarge person extracts from the alchemist and it gets even worse.
So here is where I ask for advice on challenging both the summoner and the summoner's party. Also, here are my two main "potential house rules" regarding the summoner (and the game in general) that I would like feedback/opinions on.
1. Summoners may not "double-tap" by having a summoned creature attack, then summon it again that same round to attack again. My games use the variant rule where you summon the same individual monster each time, so this is supported by the idea of "put it back in the barn before you call it out again". Double-tapping with a different creature is fine.
2. Eidolons, and other cohort type creatures that do not have a built in control mechanic (animal companions/handle animal), operate on their own initiative modifier, separate from their "parent" PCs. In my specific case, Leo the summoner has an incredibly good initiative modifier (+8), which usually allows Killwright to go first in the initiative order. Combined with suprise rounds (the party is fairly stealthy overall) and Killwright often gets full attacks on flatfooted enemies, despite his own initiative mod being only +2.
So yeah, any advice or commentary on these proposed rulings or dealing with summoners in general is both welcome and appreciated.
Also, for what its worth, some extra info. A bit of backstory that both the player and PC are unaware of (hooray for players who like a bit of DM skulldugery). That being said, LEO, DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU WANT THE BIG SECRET SPOILED.
What this boils down to is that Summoners are currently extremely rare/unheard of in my game world, and as such very few are aware of the nature of their powers. However, Dagon is obviously aware, Demogorgon is either aware or able to figure it out rapidly, and by proxy most of his demonic forces (including the Crimson Fleet) will likewise be to some degree or another. So when the game gets more to that end of things, I can start seriously exploiting those weaknesses, but for now its a little meta-gamey for me as the DM to just go "lolbanish".
Honestly, that damage doesn't look all that impressive to me. I statted up a high str fighter earlier today and he had 2d6+20 at lvl 5, with a +13 to hit. 1 more lvl and he is looking at a second attack with way more damage potential. Its not even the most damage I can pull out on a lvl 6 character. Multiclass him with a level of barbarian and he goes up 2 hit and 3 damage
That being said, I agree with your rules. Rule 1 comes from an issue where normally summon monster is a full round action, but you get it as a standard. I think a better solution is to make the spell a standard action but the monster doesn't appear until your next turn, but definetely agree that its a loophole that should be fixed.
Number 2 I can take or leave. I like it in concept, but it can bog down the game more. Especially once you start getting more players/characters. I do like it, but probably wouldn't use it in my games.
It was already revealed at paizocon that one of the summoner changes will mean that they cannot use their summon SLA and have the eidolon manifested at the same time. That may help you a little.
That Paizo info is very very nice. I think that will go a long way to bringing it under control.
It is true that 2d6+20 is better than 2d6+8, but when the first is at +13/+8 and the second is +13/+13/+13/+13, unless DR becomes an issue, the second is superior. And it is true that DR is an issue for him (no amulet of mighty fists yet).
Anyone else have any tactics or ideas? Leo is good about going invisible when nasty fights break out, which (currently) makes the "kill the summoner to weaken the summon" plan harder to implement.
I'm less interested in number crunch comparisons to other PC classes, as I've seen them all before and they don't bring anything to the table. I suppose I should start exploiting touch attacks since Killwright's touch AC is only 11.
some important information that we prolly need is what do the other pcs do? An alchemist can do a whole lot of things. Is he trying to emphasize bombs mutegens? What about the storm giant. It looks to me like the summoner has his eidolon optimized where as the presumed level adjustment race characters may not be? If so it will be a delicate balance to increase the challenge the summoner without overwhelming the other players. Extra info on them and general tactics would be helpful.
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Killwright is dishing out 4 attacks at +13 to hit, and they do 2d6+8 each. Very few CR 6 critters can hold up to that kind of attack barrage.
It might be me, but this doesn't sound game-breaking. It's good, like an enraged barbarian power attacking good, but not overkill.
Take an Allosaurus as a random CR6 creature.
Average HP is 162. AC is 15.
Killwright hits with all 4 attacks each round at 15 avg each, that's 60 a round so it takes 3 rounds for him to kill the dino. With a bites at +15 and 2d6+12, I'd assume it gets one good ~40dmg bite on the eidolon to consume some healing resources on the way to the BBEG, who will be a harder fight.
I don't find it uncommon for PC damage dealers to dish out 60 damage in a round sans criticals, 2d6+20 damage is sort of standard optimized greatsword power attacking.
Remember Savage Tide, unmodified is 3.5, so you'd probably want to beef up the fights if you are using the CR as presented or the stats as printed in Dungeon Mag.
At level 6, the fight with flying terror birds, bar-lguras or baboon mob has to be semi-challenging the eidolon, right? The flight and DR should make it at least interesting...
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My suggestion:
Use those ST critter-beasties to their nastiest potential.
Black puddings + stealth...
Scout levels on a certain evil monkey...
Hit & run ambushes, kidnapping npcs, using cover and concealment extensively.
Later on, some of the baddies WILL need a CR bump...City of Broken Idols & later, especially.
The advanced template will be your friend here, as well as an extra class level on most npcs.
Add on enlarge person extracts from the alchemist and it gets even worse.
Can't enlarge person an outsider. They're not a person; they're an outsider. Only the summoner can enlarge person his summon.
I think.
Can we get an official answer on this? And does the Alchemist have the Infusion discovery?Add on enlarge person extracts from the alchemist and it gets even worse.Can't enlarge person an outsider. They're not a person; they're an outsider. Only the summoner can enlarge person his summon.
I think.
Official answer on what? Someone who drinks a potion has to be a legal target of the spell. An outsider is not normally a legal target for enlarge person
"Enlarge Person
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (powdered iron)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes"
The eidolon is an outsider, not a humanoid.
Share Spell does in fact only allow the Summoner to be the one casting the spell
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell
with a target of “You” on his eidolon (as a spell with
a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner
may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells
normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type
(outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the
summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the
eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if
they function like spells.
@ Kolokotroni: The default party tactic is Enlarge Person Extracts from the alchemist and Bull's Strength from the Summoner, on the Storm Giant and Eidolon. Sahuagain aclhemist may join with mutagen on top, but usually defers to bombs (has taken Precise Bomb discovery). At a glance, the storm giant is the least optimized (gladiator background, using buckler and short sword), yet still seems to be equivalent to a fighter of the same level, with the exception of natural armor putting her ahead of the curve AC wise.
@Wakedown: Currently in Sea Wyvern's Wake, just about to hit the Sargasso. Last monster was a CR 6 7-headed hydra, but Killwright wasn't present for that fight (it still went down like a chump, what happened to hydras in PF?) Just looking at the stats of the Mother of All, a CR 8, and it seems very weak for something two CRs above the party level. Guess I need to dig out my conversion guide and read up again on CR conversion. All the other encounters you mentioned are are little later.
@Ken Loupe: Hmm, this may be an interesting point, Killwright last I saw has 51hp. Should I be allowing rolled HP? Thats definitely a big difference in power and staying ability right there.
@James Maissen: The summoner does an excellent job of bookkeeping, its actually my least worrisome issue at the table. And its true that healing is the big weak spot for a summoner, but issues of what to do if the summon dies are pretty moot when I can't seem to keep an enemy alive long enough to hit it! (Although, the last few fights have proven the odds of swingy dice. A CR 7 elder redcap and an advanced peryton all behaved like commoners with sticks thanks to my dice rolling an average of 5. Hopefully dice karma comes around.)
@Caineach: Ah, thats what I get for not reading the text twice. That does actually make it seem that while the eidolon may be enlarged by his summoner, the extracts from the alchemist (who did take the Infusion discovery) won't actually work.
Has there been any official statement on the boards yet regarding the Paizocon mention of only being able to have a summon or the eidolon out at any given time? Not that I distrust the info; rather, I prefer to have a page I can cite if I ever have to (which I fortunately haven't ever had to, knock on wood).
I haven't seen anything official yet on the nerf. Guess we will have to wait until the APG ships at the end of next month.
Hydra are disproportionately low on the HP for their CR. This is because their breath weapon is insane for their CR and they have a lot of attacks. They are glass cannons, which is a shame because its the opposite of how they should be IMO. The base 5 headed cryo/pyrohydra has a 15d6 breath weapon though as a CR6.
@ Kolokotroni: The default party tactic is Enlarge Person Extracts from the alchemist and Bull's Strength from the Summoner, on the Storm Giant and Eidolon. Sahuagain aclhemist may join with mutagen on top, but usually defers to bombs (has taken Precise Bomb discovery). At a glance, the storm giant is the least optimized (gladiator background, using buckler and short sword), yet still seems to be equivalent to a fighter of the same level, with the exception of natural armor putting her ahead of the curve AC wise.
So you have 2 front liners, 2 support and likely a summon running around causing havoc as well right?
First recomendation, dont use single monsters. Hydra or not, without ALOT of work on your part, they dont work. The action economy means too much. Also, if you have 4 or 5 enemies spread out a little, they cant all be wiped out with 1 single full attack.
Also in the hydra specifically, even in 3.5 if you had more then 1 heavy hitter in the party, they go down like chumps. Its only if you have only a sword and board fighter that they become difficulty. If you have a pair of front liners with the alchemist providing damage as well with bombs or mutagens, they will just cut through its fast healing and kill it relatively easily.
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@Caineach: Ah, thats what I get for not reading the text twice. That does actually make it seem that while the eidolon may be enlarged by his summoner, the extracts from the alchemist (who did take the Infusion discovery) won't actually work.
This is what I was looking for. Guess it might help if I have the APG infront of me.
Anyway, if you look at the Share Spell ability, it looks like the Eidolon can only benefit from buffs that the Summoner gives him, and not from any other source.
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Currently in Sea Wyvern's Wake, just about to hit the Sargasso. Last monster was a CR 6 7-headed hydra, but Killwright wasn't present for that fight (it still went down like a chump, what happened to hydras in PF?) Just looking at the stats of the Mother of All, a CR 8, and it seems very weak for something two CRs above the party level. Guess I need to dig out my conversion guide and read up again on CR conversion. All the other encounters you mentioned are are little later.
Ah, I would've recommended keeping them at level 4-5 through SWW if you're using PFRPG rules. SWW will be a cakewalk for a balanced level 6 PFRPG character party. If you can keep them at 6 to HTBM you'll find you can run the printed modules without any extra work, and the players should start to feel better challenged.
Hopefully the Summoner player gets as much of a thrill when his Eidolon tears up something as if he was playing a Barbarian or Fighter. It's completely OK for a character to tear through certain kinds of monsters as long as everyone is having fun.
Spread out mooks are actually a great way to slow down creatures with lots of attacks.
A bunch of low health archers helping the real baddies. Have them all start in cover, then step out and rapid shot at the party. The Big charges with pounce and 1 shots them, then the rest of Big E attacks are wasted.
@Caineach: Ah, thats what I get for not reading the text twice. That does actually make it seem that while the eidolon may be enlarged by his summoner, the extracts from the alchemist (who did take the Infusion discovery) won't actually work.This is what I was looking for. Guess it might help if I have the APG infront of me.
Anyway, if you look at the Share Spell ability, it looks like the Eidolon can only benefit from buffs that the Summoner gives him, and not from any other source.
Not exactly. the eidolon can be buffed normaly by anyone, as long as its a legal target for the buff. the extract of enlarge person wont work, but an extract of shield would, or bulls strength. It just has to be something that can target an outsider.
The summoner is the only one that can ignore the targeting requirements, due to his share spells ability.
Yeah, but that will definitely cut down on some of the crazy. The summoner doesn't have Enlarge Person, as far as I know. So unless he fills in a slot with that and spends actions doing it, no more huge 15' reach combat monster.
I had never seen an official statement in either 3.5 or PF that stated animal companions, eidolons, etc, didn't roll their hp like players. Likewise, it had always been implied (to me at least) that the hp totals in the MM were average values for expedience (since many Dungeon magazine adventures would have varying hp totals noted next to the monsters).
But yeah, 51 hp on a 5d10+5 is REALLY high. Gonna have to ask him about that...
As a GM i think i would like the Eidolon.
If a Character clearly outshines the other party members, every opponent that has some information on the party and is a bit intelegent will have a strategie to teamup and kill the charater or take him out of the fight.
If this charater is a pet it's more easy because the GM can kill him without annoying the real player charater to much ;-)
If my BBEG knows that the party is after him, he would hire some Cleric/Wizards or get some items to cast some of this on the poor Eidolon:
- Bestow Curse
- Dismissal
- Deep Slumber
Why do all BBEG have to unpreapered? BBEG knows that a summoned pet that followes orders has not much willpower on it's own.
(Biped Eiderlon do have a Will of +6-7 even with Devotion on this level)
An Ogre Mage CR8 has some nice Will save spelllikes ... if this thing is not challenging you party someting is really wrong, but with the information i have this thing might kill you complet party ...
If you really want to give the party a hard time:
Aboleth/Succubus CR7 (Dominate Monster DC22 3/day)
I do not know Savage Tide but there should be some options to fit in some encounters that will challenge your party ... stupid melee mosters will not challange a party with a gaint and a summoner ...
Breiti
Yeah, I talked to him about it last night and he reminded me about the +4 con from large. An excellent "D'oh!" moment for me as a DM. So that put him only 9 points above average, and I had to consider I have a houserule regarding con mod and hit points that I apply evenly to everything, PC and monster (which almost always favors the monster).
That brought him to only about 5 points off from average, and through discourse we realized he had started with full HP for HD1, rather than average. So we agreed to remove the extra 5hp, and everything is cool. That and he's planning on rebuilding the eidolon to a less offense, more defense evolution spread, so I dont think I have much to worry about, what with the APG final versions on the way.
How the sudden and dramatic shift of the eidolon's role in combat will play out with the rest of the party will be amusing. Some of my group doesn't like dealing with wild paradigm shifts in party roles. Part of the reason one of them never plays druids.