When Enlarge Person is cast, does the target gain the benefits from the increased size as well as the adjustments stated in the spell's description, or do the adjustments stated in the description replace the size adjustments?
The person only gets what is in the spell.
Details in the Bestiary on size adjustments are a general guide for a GM to make new monsters and aren't fixed bonuses when size is adjusted.
Agreed. The spell would be brokenly powerful otherwise.
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Thanks for the clarification. I just think it's a little stupid that although their height is doubled and weight is multiplied by 8, their CMB stays the same (+2 str, -1 attack)and their CMD is 1 less (+2 str, -2 dex, -1 attack). So being enlarged doesn't help you push or grapple opponents, but also makes it easier for them to push or grapple you. I guess that's why it's only a 1st level spell.
Thanks for the clarification. I just think it's a little stupid that although their height is doubled and weight is multiplied by 8, their CMB stays the same (+2 str, -1 attack)and their CMD is 1 less (+2 str, -2 dex, -1 attack). So being enlarged doesn't help you push or grapple opponents, but also makes it easier for them to push or grapple you. I guess that's why it's only a 1st level spell.
Attack modifiers for size and CMB/CMD modifiers for size are different. You get a +1 for being large, not a -1.
But you don't get a +1 for being large, as per the spell. That's the problem I have with it. You only get:
The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.Nothing to CMB/CMD for size.
I see this as an artifact from 3.5 where there was no CMB/CMD. In this case, the RAW is weird and seemingly wrong. I think it's well within RAI to use the "special size modifiers" for those two statistics as logic would dictate, despite the RAW.
As far as I know, you DO get the +1 to CMB/CMD, -4 to Stealth, and reach from the spell.
Unlike the guidelines in the bestiary, this is something all large creatures get by virtue of being large (except for reach, which is by virtue of being large/tall).
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Unlike the guidelines in the bestiary, this is something all large creatures get by virtue of being large.
Yes for the CMB/CMD.
Look up the section in the Core Rulebook on CMB/CMD. There's modifiers there for your size. No matter how you got to that size, those are your modifiers. They don't need to mention it in the spell, especially since you're not always going from Medium to Large.
Attack modifiers for size and CMB/CMD modifiers for size are different. You get a +1 for being large, not a -1.You don't add in attack roll modifiers to CMB/CMD? I thought you did, although I could be entirely wrong.
You DO factor in attack roll modifiers, except for size modifiers (which are an exception to the rule).
For example, a large creature gets a -1 penalty to attack rolls with his +3 greatsword simply for being large. Conversely, he gets a +1 size bonus to his CMB (and no size penalty). If he were to attempt to sunder an opponent's shield, he would gain the greatsword's +3 enhancement bonus to his CMB (plus other modifiers for circumstances, feats, etc.) as well as the +1 size bonus.
So basically the -1 attack modifier cancels the +1 CMB modifier?
*EDIT* Do you also add weapon/attack modifiers for all combat maneuvers?
No, the +1 CMD bonus is used instead of the -1 attack modifier.
A level 1 fighter with 18 strength, 12 dex
+1(BAB) +4(str) = +5 to hit
+1(BAB) +4(str) = +5 CMB
10 +1(BAB) +4(str) +1(dex) = 16 CMD
After enlarge person 20 strength, 10 dex, and large size(+1 reach, -1 to hit, +1 CMB/CMD)
+1(BAB) +5(str) -1(large) = +5 to hit
+1(BAB) +5(str) +1(large) = +7 CMB
10 +1(BAB) +5(str) +0(dex) +1(large) = 17 CMD
So basically the -1 attack modifier cancels the +1 CMB modifier?
No. I specifically said that a large creature does NOT take a size penalty to CMB or CMD.
Do you also add weapon/attack modifiers for all combat maneuvers?
Only maneuvers that use your weapon (such as disarm, sunder, trip). Things that don't use your weapon (bull rush, unarmed disarm, grapple, unarmed trip) do not gain the benefit of weapon bonuses.
So is Enlarge Person off limits for monsters the same way Hold Person is?
Except for very specific exceptions (such as the share spell class feature from many class companions), enlarge person only works on humanoids.
(Which now includes giants in Pathfinder.)
So is Enlarge Person off limits for monsters the same way Hold Person is?Except for very specific exceptions (such as the share spell class feature from many class companions), enlarge person only works on humanoids.
(Which now includes giants in Pathfinder.)
Are "monstrous humanoids" a subpart of the "humanoids" as English syntax suggests, or are they completely separate (in which case you can't Enlarge Person a monstrous humanoid)?
So is Enlarge Person off limits for monsters the same way Hold Person is?Except for very specific exceptions (such as the share spell class feature from many class companions), enlarge person only works on humanoids.
(Which now includes giants in Pathfinder.)
Are "monstrous humanoids" a subpart of the "humanoids" as English syntax suggests, or are they completely separate (in which case you can't Enlarge Person a monstrous humanoid)?
Completely separate.
So basically the -1 attack modifier cancels the +1 CMB modifier?
*EDIT* Do you also add weapon/attack modifiers for all combat maneuvers?
No, the +1 CMD bonus is used instead of the -1 attack modifier.
A level 1 fighter with 18 strength, 12 dex
+1(BAB) +4(str) = +5 to hit
+1(BAB) +4(str) = +5 CMB
10 +1(BAB) +4(str) +1(dex) = 16 CMDAfter enlarge person 20 strength, 10 dex, and large size(+1 reach, -1 to hit, +1 CMB/CMD)
+1(BAB) +5(str) -1(large) = +5 to hit
+1(BAB) +5(str) +1(large) = +7 CMB
10 +1(BAB) +5(str) +0(dex) +1(large) = 17 CMD
+1, one of the better 1st level spells in my opinion, though I kinda think doubling your size and such should bring a bigger bonus.. if it said you grow enough to reach the next size category it would be easier to justify only getting a +2 size bonus. It works fine like this for simplicity's sake though.
+1, one of the better 1st level spells in my opinion, though I kinda think doubling your size and such should bring a bigger bonus.. if it said you grow enough to reach the next size category it would be easier to justify only getting a +2 size bonus. It works fine like this for simplicity's sake though.
Take a look at righteous might. It gives you a +4 size bonus to strength. If enlarge person gave +4 to strength, it would have to be bumped up to a level 2 spell.
I only ask because I have a Ghaele Eladrin character in my campaign with Enlarge Person as a SLA. Which he cannot use on himself.So is Enlarge Person off limits for monsters the same way Hold Person is?Except for very specific exceptions (such as the share spell class feature from many class companions), enlarge person only works on humanoids.
(Which now includes giants in Pathfinder.)
I play enlarge person slightly different. In theory, there is a whole host of spells enlarge outsider, enlarge beast, etc. If a non-humanoid creature has enlarge person, I swap the ability out for enlarge (creature type). So an eladrin would have enlarge outsider.
Sorry, I misremembered and didn't delete the post fast enough. He does not have it as a SLA. I think he used a prepared cleric spell to cast it.
Yeah, in that case I would let him memorize enlarge outsider if he wanted to, but that is my house rule on it.
it seems one of the benefits for a melee player would be the upped dmg done by the weapon or unarmed attack
The net benefits for a medium character are
+0 AC(-2 dex, +1 natural armor)-1 touch AC(-2 dex)
+1 CMD(+1 size, +2 str, -2 dex)
+2 CMB(+1 size, +2 str)
+0 to hit(-1 size, +2 str)
+damage varies by weapon choice(increased weapon size, +2 strength)
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it seems one of the benefits for a melee player would be the upped dmg done by the weapon or unarmed attackThe net benefits for a medium character are
+0 AC(-2 dex, +1 natural armor)
-1 touch AC(-2 dex)
+1 CMD(+1 size, +2 str, -2 dex)
+2 CMB(+1 size, +2 str)
+0 to hit melee(-1 size, +2 str)
+damage varies by weapon choice(increased weapon size, +2 strength)
-2 ranged hit (-1 size, -2 dex)
Enlarge Person is a poor disguise for medieval Viagra and I won't stand for it. I can't really. Too much blood loss to the extremities and I get woozy.
-2 ranged hit (-1 size, -2 dex)it seems one of the benefits for a melee player would be the upped dmg done by the weapon or unarmed attackThe net benefits for a medium character are
+0 AC(-2 dex, +1 natural armor)
-1 touch AC(-2 dex)
+1 CMD(+1 size, +2 str, -2 dex)
+2 CMB(+1 size, +2 str)
+0 to hit melee(-1 size, +2 str)
+damage varies by weapon choice(increased weapon size, +2 strength)
Good catch, also the increased damage from weapon size does not help ranged weapons.
Actual conversation from a few weeks ago, where my ftr/sor used enlarge person--
Other Player: does that spell make your weapons bigger?
Me: All my equipment gets bigger, baby.
Now that was one appropriately educational answer, playah. ;)