Yes, they do.
Permanent Stat boosts from leveling or wishes take effect immediately.
Boost from permenant magic items take effect after you have worn the item for one full day.
The reference is in the Glossary:
"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Numerous Paizo folks have confirmed that you do indeed get retroactive skill points, as some folks aren't sure the above is clear enough on the point.
Yes, they do.
Permanent Stat boosts from leveling or wishes take effect immediately.
Boost from permenant magic items take effect after you have worn the item for one full day.
Actually the wording isn't very clear on this subject but i'm pretty sure RAI was to forgo completly the added skills pts granted by the Int increase in favor of a fix number of skills (1 skill for +2 int item, 2 skills for +4 items, 3 skills for +6 items) in which the character is granted ranks = HD.
-Jelly
The reference is in the Glossary:
"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Numerous Paizo folks have confirmed that you do indeed get retroactive skill points, as some folks aren't sure the above is clear enough on the point.
I think the ability bonuses related to the Glossary entry include wishes, tomes and level ups. For Enhancement items, I think the fixed-skill ranks = HD rule overwrites the glossary entry.
You do not gain skills pts for casting an extended Fox's cunning spell everyday, unless i'm mistaken. Nor do you get bonus spell slots. You get bonuses on skills that use Int as governing attribute, and increase your DCs.
-Jelly
Yes, they do.
Permanent Stat boosts from leveling or wishes take effect immediately.
Boost from permenant magic items take effect after you have worn the item for one full day.
Actually the wording isn't very clear on this subject but i'm pretty sure RAI was to forgo completly the added skills pts granted by the Int increase in favor of a fix number of skills (1 skill for +2 int item, 2 skills for +4 items, 3 skills for +6 items) in which the character is granted ranks = HD.
-Jelly
That is specifically for the headband of vast intelligence, which states:
A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
Permanent enhancement bonuses from other sources (for instance, from a scarlet and blue ioun stone) are not tied to specific skill selections.
Permanent enhancement bonuses from other sources (for instance, from a scarlet and blue ioun stone) are not tied to specific skill selections.
Oh ! You are right. I tend to forget about other sources of enhancement bonuses to various stats. I'm not a big fan of floating stones around the head.
But then the question arises : since they are both enhancement bonuses (say you wear both a headband of intellect +2 and a +2 Int stone), how do they interact ? You get flat +1 on DCs, +1 skill pt per HD, rank = HD in a particular skill, bonus spells as per a flat +2 to int ?
-Jelly
Permanent enhancement bonuses from other sources (for instance, from a scarlet and blue ioun stone) are not tied to specific skill selections.Oh ! You are right. I tend to forget about other sources of enhancement bonuses to various stats. I'm not a big fan of floating stones around the head.
But then the question arises : since they are both enhancement bonuses (say you wear both a headband of intellect +2 and a +2 Int stone), how do they interact ? You get flat +1 on DCs, +1 skill pt per HD, rank = HD in a particular skill, bonus spells as per a flat +2 to int ?
-Jelly
Yep, the bonuses won't stack, since they're both Enhancement, so you just end up with a +2 to Int. I suppose the GM would have to make the call one how the skill points interact--I'd say the character would get a bonus skill point per level/HD in any skill from the ioun stone and leave it at that since it's the easiest solution.
No they do not!
Watch the wording, you do not get retroactive skill points to spend, you instead get automatic max ranks, there is a big difference. Each INT item gives a certain skill for every +2 enhancement bonus to INT it provides(odd bonuses and non-enhancements give nothing). You do not gain additional skill points each level to spend on whatever you want, instead the associated skill(s) are automatically bumped up to max ranks.
See my notes up-thread. This is specifically true for the head of vast intelligence only. Such a mechanic is not noted, for instance, in the ioun stone entry.
Untrue. it would simply rotate above you instead of around you, i.e. change the axis it spins around.
Nothing there that says you have to take an Ioun stone off at night. where did you read that?
==Aelryinth
Nope, the ioun stone bonus can easily be made permanent by implanting the ioun stone (as noted in Seeker of Secrets) or else setting it in a wayfinder. Also, they do not have to be removed at night--they may be voluntarily stowed, but this is not required. In either case, the user then has an Enhancement bonus to Intelligence that lasts more than 24 hours, and thereby gains bonus skill points.
It is an assumed automatic, so shady inkeepers or clever theives don't simply snatch them while you sleep, but you're correct I should have used should instead of must.. but if you feel you wan't to leave expensive magic items free for any comers to take, so be it. A great many DM's will take you up on your offer of a free 8k gp item just for having an NPC waiting for you to fall asleep.Untrue. it would simply rotate above you instead of around you, i.e. change the axis it spins around.
Nothing there that says you have to take an Ioun stone off at night. where did you read that?
==Aelryinth
Taking off an ioun stone is no different then taking off your cloak, boots, robe, sword and armor when you sleep...except you don't have to. Theft? You're using THEFT as a reason? at least with an ioun stone, they have to get close to you!
And it's not an assumed automatic at all, I don't understand where this comes from. Leaving it 'on' doesn't disturb your rest at all...unlike the other examples above.
==Aelryinth
And it's not an assumed automatic at all, I don't understand where this comes from. Leaving it 'on' doesn't disturb your rest at all...unlike the other examples above.
==Aelryinth
It is from the ioun stone descriptive text, which states, "The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time."
Obviously, I also do not see this as any sort of assumed on/off with ioun stones during sleep.
aye, 'safe' is not 'mandatory'.
==Aelryinth
Nope, the ioun stone bonus can easily be made permanent by implanting the ioun stone (as noted in Seeker of Secrets)Just now read the method of implantation. I now have greater respect for Karzoug. 20 times? The man is hardcore.
Heh, yep. I myself wouldn't make it through one time...I'm all for the wayfinder option! :^D
EDIT: And this does get me to thinking--I guess all those folks with belts and headbands never take them off! Bathing must be an issue...
Looks like we need a rule of "takes it off and doesn't put it back on for X period of time" or some such.
IF you wanted to get it implanted, or set it in a wayfinder, you could, I concede the point.
However, you would need to acquire either of those(iono how common wayfinders are but looks like thats another target for theives, or how hard it is to implant as I don't have the Seeker of Secrets) as well as the Ioun Stone(which costs double what a headband of intellect does and is not upgradable to +4 or +6 as the headband is)
So you are spending twice the amount base, plus an extra 500/18k/70k/136k gold on a wayfinder, or taking the time and materials and whatever else is involved in implanting.. or you can spend 4k on a headband, your arguement of it being easy sorta seems empty by comparison, it's not simple, simply illogical and not efficient in the least.
I'm not arguing efficiency or logic, just core rules application. The wayfinder is only 500 gp, and wouldn't be any more subject to theft than a general magic item (such as a belt or headband...). Thus, it's fairly easy to make an ioun stone grant a permanent Enhancement bonus. This specifically has applications for folks that might want to use their Belt or Head slots for other magic items.
What exactly is your definition of "permanent"? Ioun stones can be taken down, headbands can be removed, these are not permanent items. To me, the only permanent increases come from the various Tomes (inherent bonuses) or from level increase. No other bonus is permanent.
True, but if you really want the INT that badly, why would you waste twice the cost on an item that cannot be improved instead of paying 1.5 times the abilities price and tacking it on to the same headband?
That assumes the GM allows magic item customization--I've ran into plenty that don't. And of course, it also assumes access to someone that can craft said item. I, for instance, generally don't allow players to purchase items at will for characters--they get what they find, or else what few things might be available in larger cities. Some take item creation feats to compensate, but that's not been very common.
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@VW: A bonus is considered permanent if it lasts more than 24 hours. If you have had a headband on that long, it counts.Going strictly by that though, a Headband of Vast Intellect would in fact provide 3 benefits. +2/4/6 to INT, +1/2/3 skills at max ranks, and +1/2/3 additional skill ranks per level since you have a higher INT modifier. I highly doubt that was what was intended here
The headband specifically says that the extra ranks from intelligence it gives you have to be max-rank skills and those skills are set at headband creation. No doubling up. I would have hoped you would have read the entry in light of above comments on the item.
@VW: A bonus is considered permanent if it lasts more than 24 hours. If you have had a headband on that long, it counts.Going strictly by that though, a Headband of Vast Intellect would in fact provide 3 benefits. +2/4/6 to INT, +1/2/3 skills at max ranks, and +1/2/3 additional skill ranks per level since you have a higher INT modifier. I highly doubt that was what was intended here
The headband, however, has a specific exception to the general rule, as noted in its description. I'll grant that the description could be more explicit in noting that the granted skills replace any bonus skill points, but Paizo staff have confirmed this is the correct interpretation.
EDIT: Just curious, here you have an entire forum section devoted to rules questions. Why is it we only ever get players telling other people their interpretations and what they found in the sources they have access to? Why don't the wonderful people who published this lovely material ever clarify the rulings for us, since they had intended them to be used in certain ways?
They do come on here and answer questions. They've answered this one, in fact (it'll just require a little searching). Folks like me that are on the forum every day just know the conversation has already occurred and so provide the previously stated answers.
EDIT: Just curious, here you have an entire forum section devoted to rules questions. Why is it we only ever get players telling other people their interpretations and what they found in the sources they have access to? Why don't the wonderful people who published this lovely material ever clarify the rulings for us, since they had intended them to be used in certain ways?
What? The "wonderful people" FREQUENTLY weigh in on rules discussions, something which is virtually unheard of in the industry. What they don't do is waste their time on questions that have been asked and answered numerous times.
The reason for the existence of the Rules thread is to seek help from other players. Why exactly would the designers waste their time on questions that community is perfectly capable of answering?
A search for "headband of vast intelligence" on the messageboards will return tons of hits. Reading through those, you will find answers from James, Jason, Josh, Sean, etc. They all say the same thing, as we've noted here. If you have a GM that is having difficulty with this, perhaps reference them to this thread and we can help work it out?
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One of my favorite references has this info.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Headband-of-Vast-Intellig ence-10-8-
Also, in addition to coming on the boards frequently, the folks at pazio are also implementing a forum section with erratas and clarifications like those listed at the link I provided will be compiled.
Yay :D
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*is amused at the idea of trying to sleep while the ioun stone bonks against the bed repeatedly*
What were you two doing last night?
Nothing! Honest! That was her Ioun stone hitting the headboard.
See my notes up-thread. This is specifically true for the head of vast intelligence only. Such a mechanic is not noted, for instance, in the ioun stone entry.Thats because the Ioun stone is not a permanent bonus, they are temporary. As you so lovingly noted above:
"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."Ioun stones take effect immediately after being applied where it floats 1d3 feet from your head. It must be removed at night to go to sleep since it cannot float around your head when your head's on a bed or floor etc., which is why it was given the activates as soon as equipped feature, which is hence why it is not a permanent bonus which would supply skill points.
EDIT: Ioun Stones grant Enhancement Bonuses, which won't stack with the Headbands of Vast Intellect or Mental Prowess
What about the wayfinder. Pop it in there and you never have to take it off.
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More than skill points, I'd hope for an answer in the FAQ regarding languages and intelligence boosts. At least so the fine folks at Lone Wolf can fix Hero Lab so it doesn't add more starting languages due to higher intelligence gained by a headband of intelligence or similar.
(If, on the other hand, it's supposed to give languages then there should be (a) specified language(s) in the headband IMO.)
Dredging up an old thread....
So, was the original question ever satisfactorily answered--do inherent Intelligence increases as a result of leveling up grant retroactive skill points? I've seen a number of threads on the topic and while the majority of posters agree that you do get retroactive skill points, many others disagree, and I've yet to see anybody cite a developer. (The glossary citation is ambiguous, and references to the headband or ioun stones are relevant to magic items but not to the original question.)
Sorry if this has been beaten to death. I promise that I've put in a good faith effort to find a definitive answer to this question, but have come up empty.
Yes they do add skill points, assuming that the increase is enough to increase the number of skill points per level for addtional levels.
Going from Int 7 to Int 8 for a Fighter does not grant any more skills (Due to the minimum of 1 Skillpoint per level).
Going from Int 13 to 14 would add in all cases.
Int additions from magic items, such as Headbands of Intellect give skillpoints only in skills decided upon at time of creation.
Links will be here ->Int Mod & Original JJ Statement
Well to save a lot of Cheesing i had to houserule all Removable Magic items that increase Int function like the headband on skills. Had a guy gaining max ranks in whatever skill was needed every 24 hours.
Well to save a lot of Cheesing i had to houserule all Removable Magic items that increase Int function like the headband on skills. Had a guy gaining max ranks in whatever skill was needed every 24 hours.
The skill is determined when the item is created. You can't change it by taking it off and putting it on again.
Not the way i was seeing Ioun stones descrpbed
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EDIT: And this does get me to thinking--I guess all those folks with belts and headbands never take them off! Bathing must be an issue...
Not when you have prestidigitation in the party! :D
Going strictly by that though, a Headband of Vast Intellect would in fact provide 3 benefits. +2/4/6 to INT, +1/2/3 skills at max ranks, and +1/2/3 additional skill ranks per level since you have a higher INT modifier. I highly doubt that was what was intended here.
The developers have already publicly stated that this was not their intent and not the way it works.