Monk Cestus questions


Rules Questions

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In my game, I allow monks to add +1 point of damage per 2 levels of Monk to any Monk Class Weapon to simulate their training with said thing a ma bobs.

This makes it a little more attractive for the monksters in my game to carry that Quaterstaff, Sai, Shuriken and what not for those occasions where you don't want to put your paws on something.

While I don't normally allow weapons to scale with their Unarmed Damage there is an Epic Monk in the far hills that was known to have a set of Bo Sticks that did allow this and he has a standing challenge to other monks to come and get them >.< Only the worthy get the goodies!

And in my game the Monks can specify what body part they are attacking with, feet, hands, noggin, knee elbows and thumb and we usually house rule any 'cool' stuff at the time. Since our core group has been around since the 80s, it's usually a hoot of a time to boot.

They did the Tea Cup and now, you can bet yer D20 one is gonna do it with an Umberella!!

And I want to thank the Devs fro coming and joining in the fracas!!

Hope some of this helps

Have Fun out there!!

~ W ~

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
GeraintElberion wrote:
Why has everyone ignored this post? Seems like the most important one in the thread.

Thanks for calling attention to it. I notice that he has the monk calculated with eight attacks when Flurry of Blows caps at seven. That drops his base numbers to 14d10 + 84, or 98-224.

He's also wrong that the Fighter has a better chance of hitting due to a higher BAB. The Monk uses a Fighters BAB when Flurrying. So maybe he meant the Fighter has a better AB thanks to not being MAD.

I also concur with Speaker In Dreams that comparing a TWF to a THF is a bad comparison. The Fighter could be getting double his specialization bonuses to damage, which I'm sure would have an effect on the comparison.

Contributor

The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
Well ... for *my* part, I ignored it because I can't figure out how 2d10 damage popped in when monks cap out at 2d8 ...

My book says a mnk20 does 2d10 damage with unarmed strikes.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
Well ... for *my* part, I ignored it because I can't figure out how 2d10 damage popped in when monks cap out at 2d8 ...
My book says a mnk20 does 2d10 damage with unarmed strikes.

So does mine.

Scarab Sages

Well, I figured that there wouldn't be a point going with a fighter build with twf, because they'll have nearly the same stats and in the end the big difference is going to be 2d10 per attack versus 1dd

eight attacks for the monk, seven for the twf

16d10 vs 7d6. Don't really see a need to break that down :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Where is the eighth attack for the monk? TWF caps at seven attacks.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Where is the eighth attack for the monk? TWF caps at seven attacks.

They can spend a ki point for another attack at full BAB when they flurry.

Scarab Sages

Ki pool class ability


Hmm ... I was using a .srd site for the monk damage actually - my bad. For some reason it had the level 20 listed as 2d8 ... *red face*

Ok, so, if the monk is burning a ki-point for his extra attack we can do any of the following for the fighter:
*Speed on the weapon for +1 attack, or better yet, boots of haste (to not *waste* the feature on a weapon) - this can't stack w/the monk's bonus from Ki-Pool, so it's about an "even" footing I'd think.

*Two Weapon Rend - seriously - who's more likely to have the feats to spare and invest FULLY in the 2-weapon feat tree goodies? If you hit, and hit again w/the same weapon - you get another auto-hit (likely this is in the presence of the boots of speed, so actually the fighter 2-wpn guy will end up w/9 virtual attacks to the monks 8 w/his ki-burn for +1 att)

*The fighter WILL hit more often (@Tri) on account of weapon training and the weapon focus feats (unlikely taken by the monk - but possible, so fighter's hitting by at least +5-+6 over and above what the monk is using ... assuming equal weapon bonuses in the weapons/amulet of mighty fists).

*The fighter WILL have a greater critical hit range - equipment has better range than unarmed strike. The fighter WILL have greater effects when he does crit on account of the fighter-specific and potent critical feat effects.

*as for breaking down the 16d10 - what's the str bonus and damage bonus on the enhancement? flat +5 (w/no enchantments otherwise), or less with less? Keep in mind the fighter's main advantage will come from no MAD (means more focused str score - even w/dex 19 needed, easily handled w/a +4 gloves of dex or something early on, and for *cheap* relatively - the rest is all strength and *some* con). So his to hit and damage will BOTH be reliably higher than the monk's "average" damage. The fighter will constantly "add to" his rolled damage, and the monk will add relatively little by comparison ... the fighter's not just rolling 1d6 - it's 1d6+10(str)+4(wpn training)+4(wpn sp feats) +5 (weapon enchantment = +23, so it's 1d6+23 minimum (ie: before tossing on Power Attack boons that the fighter can *easily* afford and *still* out-hit %-wise the monk). If we toss on PA he can DUMP some "to hit" edge fully and still out pace a monk due to not being MAD like the monk and having a higher "to hit" stat, EVEN with a monk NOT using PA, and add an additional +12 to his damage - which now means 1d6+35 damage ... with "average" damage of 3's assumed here, it's 38 dmg x7 hits = 266 damage.

NOTE: this is NOT factoring in the greater crit range and chance to crit to inflict debilitating effects, OR the greater multiplier afforded by the level 20 Fighter ability of increasing the crit multiplier w/the best weapon he/she has. If even 1 crit sneaks in, it's 114 for that ONE hit alone ... (assuming a x3 multiplier). Given they have greater crit ranges overall due to weapon specs ... yeah - it's NOT pretty for a monk vs. a fighter in raw damage.

Scarab Sages

Meh, then you're dipping into the enchantments and offing the balance. There's a reason I excluded items other than the magical weapon and amulet of mighty fists.

The fighters class abilities and the monks class abilities come into play. The monks class abilities provide an additional attack. The fighters class abilities reduce armor check penalties, and increase the attack bonus provided.

But, again, this is just trying to take the realm of comparison out farther than a simple comparison. Basically, you're going from comparing output to comparing builds, which doesn't give us a clear view of a straight up comparison. That's why you need to make both builds as vanilla as possible, or you lose the accuracy of the comparison.

The monk can arguably use two weapon rend, boots of speed, ect., so automatically incorporating them provides no mechanical benefit and skews the results.

It looks like what you're looking for is a hit/damage ratio for optimized builds.

You're welcome to fully stat out two lvl 20 characters with all the best stuff you can think of and post the builds and results of the comparison if you so choose. I'd be happy to comment on them. Personally, I accomplished my goal, which was a straight base damage comparison.

Yeah, the monk suffers from mad. Once you start applying magical items, the mad goes down significantly. And one last thought before you start building those two characters.

What happens to the monks base damage of 2d10 with a monks robe?


Magicdealer wrote:

Meh, then you're dipping into the enchantments and offing the balance. There's a reason I excluded items other than the magical weapon and amulet of mighty fists.

The fighters class abilities and the monks class abilities come into play. The monks class abilities provide an additional attack. The fighters class abilities reduce armor check penalties, and increase the attack bonus provided.

But, again, this is just trying to take the realm of comparison out farther than a simple comparison. Basically, you're going from comparing output to comparing builds, which doesn't give us a clear view of a straight up comparison. That's why you need to make both builds as vanilla as possible, or you lose the accuracy of the comparison.

The monk can arguably use two weapon rend, boots of speed, ect., so automatically incorporating them provides no mechanical benefit and skews the results.

It looks like what you're looking for is a hit/damage ratio for optimized builds.

You're welcome to fully stat out two lvl 20 characters with all the best stuff you can think of and post the builds and results of the comparison if you so choose. I'd be happy to comment on them. Personally, I accomplished my goal, which was a straight base damage comparison.

Yeah, the monk suffers from mad. Once you start applying magical items, the mad goes down significantly. And one last thought before you start building those two characters.

What happens to the monks base damage of 2d10 with a monks robe?

Hmm ... I actually did start to stat something up fully, but ultimately - just not that much of a natural #'s guy (and short on time, honestly). I know enough to see disparities when I see them, and the monk can't keep up. Period.

Besides, isn't that the point of the wealth by level nonsense? To guarantee "power" in some way tied to gear, etc?

I'll just play with some *reasonable* #'s here (ie: the stats that count mostly) and go with as vanilla a build I can manage (as you say - it can get needlessly complex).

Oh - if the monk has boots of speed - he can't burn Ki for ANOTHER attack - the effects don't stack, so it's Ki burning, OR the boots ... unless you'd like to let the monk waste his $ on 'em anyway ... just saying. Unless there's some reason it is allowed to stack "extra attack actions" where every other class is unable to benefit in this way for some reason (in which case it's just even more strange).

Ok, so ... quick *reasonable* spread on the Monk should have him w/a decent wis and dex to get some benefit of their non-armor wearing booties, but they also NEED str and con for staying power - being generous, let's say 14's across the board with *slightly* better than 10 for the other stats, and something (Cha probably) drops to a terrible level like 7 or something. Point being that by the highest level, if equally invested in all things, I'll go *maybe* 20's or so on these stats (just tossing #'s that don't seem *that* out there for $ to accomplish by top level --- +6 to 3 stats seems "ok" to me). So, monks to hit from str alone is +5 and he gets a +5 to damage. He's got the amulet of mighty fists at a +5 (vanilla I guess - so nothing snazzy). So +5 more to both, so +10/+10 over his base attack ... and that's about it, so +28 on the flurry stuff. We'll even throw in Wpn Focus for +11/+10 as his final bonus add-ons. If we factor in Power Attack, he can do the -5 trade max, pick up +10 to damage, so +6/+20 or w/bab factored, +24 (and the flurry stuff) at 2d10+20 damage ... +24's don't impress me as being all *that* capable of striking CR's of the 20 or so all that easily ... iteratives only get worse here, so maybe only 1/2 of the blows could land? (seriously - NOT a % guy at all! I just know the probability isn't that great, and it gets worse off the more random swings he's throwing). So ... I don't know, disregard the back-end as "unreliable" striking? +18's and +13's are good ... w/the boons, it's +24/+24/+24/+19/+19 - 5 *reasonable* hits and random on the rest. Average damage is 10+20 = 30 points/hit and we're going with Ki-burn (to get the extra +24 in there), so *maybe* about a 150 damage, no? That's power attacking, and sacrificing the ability to land a solid shot in order to put some serious damage #'s up.

Fighter-guy's stats - he's far more focused in str, and so we'll get him to say a 30 there, and 20's in dex/con (not unreasonable, IMO). From str he's getting +10 to hit and damage alone. From Weapon Training, it's +4/+4 on both again w/his best weapon. He will auto-confirm criticals, and his damage multiplier goes up by that much more. With the weapon focus line and wpn specialization lines he gets +2/+4 more. Add on a +5 weapon (though in the interest of *vanilla* I'll drop down 1 feature and go "keen" on the blade, though I think speedy weapons are certainly *fair* by then too). So, in total this guy's hitting at +21 and doing damage at +23. Added to bab, it's +41 to hit, w/2 wpn stuff, he starts at +39 .... he can power attack at -6, and add +12 to his damage to bring it to +33 "to hit" while upping the damage to +35 per hit. He's got 7 attacks, and his worst will be +18 - OMG!!! That's 9 points higher than a monk in "to hit" calculations ... that's huge and means that even his lesser hits are still likely to hit where the monk's won't - so probably *all* hits honestly, but we can dismiss the lesser one's if you *really* want to - call it 5 of 7 hits that land possible (discarding the 5 bab strikes ... even though they're at a +18 and FAR more likely to strike than a monk's). Average damage (short swords seemed to be the default) so 1d6 = 3 damage +35 points/hit, or 38 damage per hit. 38x5 = 190 points of damage.

This doesn't take into account a higher crit range, or the effects of the tradeoff for the Keen ability (dropped sword to figure as a +4 vs. +5 for Keen). If ANY of those crit, his damage will jump from 38 on the hit to 114 on that ONE hit alone ... right there. Why? increased damage multiplier with a short sword w/keen (17-20 crit strikes), let alone whatever else he's got for critical feats. So, with only ONE crit damage goes from 190 to 266.

I'm not getting specific on the fighter build as it has a feat for every level (ie: enough to max out 2-wpn fighting, specialization, and THEN some for adding whatever he wants/needs), so it can easily grab any number of feats to maximize more damage output - bleeding, blinding (ie: enemy loses AC if blinded), fatigued, stunned, etc - lots of things for him to pick up given a good crit range and a multiplier of x3 to boot!

The monk can do *ok* in damage - not saying it's pathetic. More just pointing out that "oh! Monks can flurry!" is not tantamount to saying "they can out DPR a fighter!"

I'm using level 20 stuff as that's where the monk hits his 2d10 unarmed damage. Only fair to use a level 20 fighter to compare ... and he gets *all* that entails to bring to the table. I still think 2 +7 short swords is fully reasonable within the wealth guides, though (+1 for keen, +3 for speed and leaving a +3 left over - decreasing stuff a *bit* from what I reported above). Given the crazy amount of $$ charged for the Mighty Fist - this is ok, IMO.

the fighter is just going to hit harder ... every time.

Hmm .. even the 2-handed guy, if he gets 3 of his 4 shots in w/a greatsword (also keen) he's managing the same "to hit" boon (+21), and his damage will be +15+4+4+4 = 27 base. If he power attacks, he's at 35/30/25/20 (WAY more likely to hit than the monk is at EVERY point - even that last *weak* swing is heavy duty!!), and he'll add 18 points of damage for his power attack here for a total damage modifier of +45 per hit. {monks last swings are going off at +9's mind you by the time he gets there and this 2-hander is swinging his best last swing at a +20 ... it's even better than the monk's 3rd swing rate, too!}

Ok, 2-handed sword here is 2d6, or average of 6+45 = 51 damage per hit - nearly every one is perfectly likely to strike, so call it 4 hits ==> 204 damage from a guy making less attacks at a higher, more reliable rate, and hitting WAY harder. If even 1 of those crits (17-20 crit range), then it jumps from 204 to 306! It's not even close for a comparison ...

{note: I'm not rockin' monks w/crits as they NEED 20's to crit and there *is* no way short of Improved Critical to grant a monk a better crit range on his strikes presently, or I'd have swapped that on the amulet to be fair to him.}

I think that's pretty vanilla, but complete in representing the parties (note: I did NOTHING to alter the 2-hander's abilities from the 2-wpn guy, so *maybe* he'd be even more of a monster by then str-wise ... not sure).

Son of a!!! Forgot the Monk's Robe - past 2d10, it grants no benefit I believe. It just stops progression at 2d10 for damage rating, so, honestly, it's a waste of an item/purchase for level 20-types, IMO.

Scarab Sages

Monks robe allows unarmed damage to count as five levels higher. The small stuff on epic says that abilities with repeating progressions continue to improve in epic levels.

The monks progression starts at 1d6
It goes up a size
then another size
then back down to original size and double the dice
then up a size
then another size
Continuing the monks progression, we get:
21 2d10
22 2d10
23 4d6
24 4d6
25 4d6

Your stat spread for the monk is off. A damage-based monk *which is what we're comparing against - damage based fighter*
needs str, dex, and wisdom. Nearly the same spread as your fighter. So 30 str, easily 20's in the other two per your comparison.

And I'll skip the argument with haste and ki - though it's by no means a given :p

base monk flurry bab is 18. +10 from str, 1 from weapon focus, 5 from the amulet *for vanilla's sake :D* and since we're adding in all the feats, lets toss in the monk feat chain of scorpion style, gorgon's fist, and medusa's wrath. Heck, lets go all out and pick up the vital strike tree as well.

The monk now has an ab of 34/34/34/29/29/24/24/19

On the first round move in and attack, the monk uses greater vital strike and deals:

16d6 + (10 str + 5 enhancement) 15
or
min of 21
max of 111

Lets make that a stunning fist too. The dc for that is going to be around 25 or so.

if the stunning fist fails, the monk is now dealing:

4d6 x8 + 15x8

Min of 144
Max of 312
power attack knocks that up to
a min of 224 and
a max of 392

If it succeeds, he's dealing 4d6x10 + 15x10

min of 190
max of 390

Power attack knocks that up to
min of 290
max of 490

Heck, let's go up a step further with this. Enlarge on both the monk and the fighter as a permanent spell nets the fighter 1 more damage from strength per attack, no change in ab, and the short swords go from 1d6 to 1d8.

The monk nets 1 more damage from strength per attack, no change in ab, and his unarmed attacks go up from 4d6 to 4d8

That sets the power attacking min if all attacks hit with medusa's strike at
4d8 x10 + 21 x 10

min of 250
max of 530

The attack bonus chain for this would be:
29/29/29/29/29/24/24/19/19/14

Your fighter's stats would be:
"w/2 wpn stuff, he starts at +39 .... he can power attack at -6, and add +12 to his damage to bring it to +33 "to hit" while upping the damage to +35 per hit. He's got 7 attacks"

or with power attacking an ab of
33/33/28/28/23/23/18
don't want to forget enlarge here:
1d8x7 + 34x7

min of 245
max of 294

Couple things to note here:

using the non-power attacking non scorpion monk stats, the monk has significantly lower minimum damage, but an equally significant higher max damage. Additionally, he's got a higher attack bonus by one. You can drop your damage, and raise your ab, but that puts you farther behind.

The power attack and scorpion strike powers just blow the fighters numbers out of the water. The fighters vital strike won't be comparable to the monks either.

Again, still without the extra +5 in weapon abilities, or any adjustments for your +7 vs the +5.

Your crit range will be 17-20 x 3. so on a crit, which you'll potentially score 15% of the time, you'll do 1d8x3 + 34x3 or a range of 103-110

The monk with a crit range of 19-20 x 2 has a 10% chance to crit, dealing 4d8x2 + 21x2 or a range of 50-106.
The monk will crit on average once a round. The fighter will crit 1.5 times out of every ten hits, which is roughly once every round with his number of attacks.

The difference per round is mostly negligible. It lowers the monks average damage a bit in comparison, but not enough to matter with the ranges we're looking at.

Now, of course, this is assuming you follow the pathfinder rules to calculate the improved monk unarmed damage properly. If, however, your dm rules that the damage caps, where does that leave the fighter and the monk?

Subtract 2xattacks from min damage and 4xattacks from max damage. So, a little copy/pasting and some editing, and we have...

4d6 x8 + 15x8

becomes Min of 128
becomes Max of 280
power attack knocks that up to
becomes min of 208 and
becomes max of 360

If it succeeds, he's dealing 4d6x10 + 15x10

becomes min of 170
becomes max of 350

Power attack knocks that up to
becomes min of 270
becomes max of 450

4d8 x10 + 21 x 10

becomes min of 230
becomes max of 490

Interestingly, the vanilla monk attacks *no power attack or medusa* has lower minimum damage, but similar max damage to the power attacking fighter, and has +1 to hit on him. With either or both feats, the monks damage clearly rises above the fighters, though his attack chain functions at 4 less than the power attacking fighter.

Luckily for the monk, all those bonus attacks are made at the highest attack bonus, so he has to worry less about the iterative dropoff than the fighter.

Again, this is the fighter with a +7 weapon and the monk with a +5. If you give the fighter another +3 in d6's, he is more comparable to the power attacking monk, though the power attacking/medusa monk still leaves him behind.

So, with or without the bonus from the monks robe, the +5 monk is more than comparable to the +7 or even the +10 fighter. Giving the monk an extra +5 to play with can potentially push the monks maximum damage up by 300 points a round, capping him of with a maximum of 790 points of damage.

Compared to the fighters potential maximum cap of *switching weapons for +5 and 5d6, and still counting haste attack*

1d8x7 + 5d6x7+34x7
238+56+210

max of 504 damage.


yeah ... that's why I tend to stay away from #'s in junk like this - hard to follow fast. I'm pretty sure we're so far off-topic, though that's it's a new thread.

In the interest of not derailing anything a few points and I'm not going to do the specific junk again:
*I considered Medusa's wrath - but it's fully contingent upon a previous attack being used in the first place against things with INSANE saves by that time (by CR), and with NO real emphasis given to the monk's primary stat that would/could take it into account (Wis - apparently less important than Str).

*Stats were 3 important for the fighter, and 4 for the monk ... but if you build 'em like a fighter, sure. So what ... con takes the hit for you? If you *really* want to ... sure. Not good for a melee, but whatever.

*The fighter was WAY better "to hit" than the monk by at least 5 -6 points just from weapon training and the weapon focus, etc. Likely, having no MAD to consider even *slightly* his str should surpass that of a monk by *at least* 4 or so points. If the monk ever wants to set up a reasonable Medusa's wrath, he better have a damn good Wis score and keep pumping it up (given it increases even tough and flat AC, it's a good idea on top of it anyway).

*the fighter's crits by 20th level WILL crit more, and crit harder than a monk.

*epic cut-off for abilities stopped at 20th level ... pretty sure it ends there. Otherwise it's the HD/skills/and feat stuff, no? {not an epic expert - at all, and no mention of the Monk's progression continuing beyond 20th in the class}

Scarab Sages

Yah... kind of looks like you skipped the part where I compared the attack bonuses, crit chances and damage, and non-robe damage - which still compares with the fighter.

And, for a combat monk, it's usually dex or con that falls by the wayside since the *cough* flurry *cough* of attacks means that the guy who can actually take all your hits will very likely fail one of his 8 or so saves.

I'll point out the specifics again, since you mentioned them though. Maybe be a bit easier to see in the shorter post :P

I'll use all the numbers from the regular 8 monk attacks, without the robe, without medusa, so you can see the comparison BEFORE the extra two attacks kick in.

The fighters power attacking ab is:
33/33/28/28/23/23/18

The monks non-power attacking ab is:
34/34/34/29/29/24/24/19

See how close they are? This is why I'm comparing power attacking vs non-power attacking.

With these two attacking chains, the fighter's damage is:
min of 245
max of 294

Without power attacking, the monk's damage is:
Min of 128
Max of 280

Lower minimum, nearly the same maximum. At this point, the fighter is damage capped. Meaning he can't do any more damage in a round than what I listed. If the monk starts power attacking, his damage goes up to:

min of 208
max of 360

With power attacking and those extra two attacks, the monks potential damage/round is:
min of 230
max of 490

With just the +5 amulet.

*if* you allow the monk to go to +10 through some means, he surpasses the fighters potential +10 weapon damage even in the first scenario, where the fighter is power attacking and the monk isn't.

And, to recap what I said at the end of my last post again, the benefit a fighter has over a monk isn't in doing damage, but in choosing not to power attack and netting a higher attack bonus, even if it is significantly less damage. That being said, the bestiary lists the average ac of a lvl 20 cr. It's 36.

Stand alone, the monk more than compares damage wise against the fighter. In a group, with group buffs to hit and damage, the monk will receive more and more of a benefit over the same buffs than a fighter will. Additionally, because the monk is already so comparable to the fighter, even to the point of potentially hitting for 196 more damage than the fighter already, letting the monk nab that other +5 enhancement is liable to unbalance your game in the monks favor.

Numbers in stuff like this is the only way you can make an actual comparison. Otherwise, folks are just arguing back and forth *because I think the monk deals more damage* or *because I think the fighter deals more damage*. The numbers let us actually see what we're looking at when we talk about damage.


Comparisons only at level 20 do not the whole story tell. Heck, a single-level snapshot does not the whole story tell. If we're going to compare, we should do snapshots every few levels and compare everything, not just damage. There's more to winning encounters than how much damage you can to if you hit.

Also, the Monk that throws out Stunning Fists 8 times a round is a Monk that fast runs out of Stunning Fists.


scylis: Apophis of Disapproval wrote:

Comparisons only at level 20 do not the whole story tell. Heck, a single-level snapshot does not the whole story tell. If we're going to compare, we should do snapshots every few levels and compare everything, not just damage. There's more to winning encounters than how much damage you can to if you hit.

The Monk that throws out Stunning Fists 8 times a round is a Monk that fast runs out of Stunning Fists.

A monk can use 1 stunning fist/round period. If it doesn't work (probably won't), then he's screwed.

@ Magicdealer:

A monk can't medusae w/out some sort of "hindered" status. If it's scorpion to set-up, then it's a standard action on the monk vs. a full attack on the fighter. If the stunning fist, he's only got 1 chance per round to try this - probably won't work quite so well either because it lasts until "just before your next turn" so if you go this rout, you'll never really be in a good position to use the extra attacks anyway. It's highly, HIGHLY circumstantial. Actually, it's even more hindered, "dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe" are the only conditions you get to swing bonuses on.

A monk can't vital strike and scorpion at the same time - both are standard actions, and they do not combine (last RAW ruling I saw kicking around here from the Piazo reps).

Look ... your attack stuff is just wrong on the fighter. You forgetting weapon training and the greater specialization? You're giving a monk the same str as a fighter and dumping his dex (which is just a terrible build idea in the first place, but whatever). So, fine - same str bonus on both. Same stats on both of you like, the fighter will still net a +5-+6 "to hit" boon over the monk. From what I had, the fighter was at a +41 bab to start, taking a -6 to full power attack (w/his 20 bab as he's entitled to) would put him at a 35 ... 1 higher, not 1 lower than a monk. That's against a monk w/no PA, either.

I was comparing them both with and w/out PA in play to show that w/a full PA, the fighter STILL out-hits the monk. You're numbers flat out ignore fighter class abilities ... huh??

The "max" numbers stuff is kind of terrible, IMO, as max numbers don't really happen much, if at all. Isn't that why most taking this argument play to the "average" damage in some way (ie: what I've done), and NOT max damage (what you keep insisting upon)?

If we stick to RAW, the monk's amulet caps out at +5 ... how *can* it get a +10? I'm all for house-ruling, but man ... some people 'round these parts look to tar and feathers when that stuff comes out. I'd rather not go that way in a base comparison (ie: no house rules).

The fighter *always* does better damage ... always. this is somthing Piazo pointedly made them best at now ... you *do* know that, right?

You're also assuming *all* 'to hit' chances (ie: attacks) actually are good enough to land. Vs. the AC of 20 level cr's you tossed up, the last 3 strikes on the monk are like 50% or less chance of hitting ... not great, and so that's why I said assume *miss* on these as they're not all that reliable for an 'average' calculation. I did the same to my fighter's as well.

#'s can matter, but they don't produce polarized results ... "averages" are used for a reason. They give the more predictable/likely end results.

Scarab Sages

First off, I'm using your fighter stats, so if something's missing, then check your work and give me the updated stats.

second off, hindered statuses such as the effect from stunning fist, which is exactly what I stated in the post :P

I never said anything about combining vital strike and scorpion. Now vital strike and stunning fist, I did mention.

I've played a monk with str/dex/wis, ignoring con *exactly like the build I suggested here* and it worked out very well. Thanks :) Also, you said I dumped his dex. I didn't. It was his con :P

As per raw, the amulet does cap out at +5. If you'll notice, this whole argument here is about why monks shouldn't be able to go up to +10.

If fighters *always* does more damage, then why is the monk here out-damaging them? Fighters *usually* have the best chance to hit, and thus the best chance to apply damage. But that is different from having the highest damage potential.

It seems like, again, you didn't really read my post. You keep referencing incorrectly, stating assumptions that I didn't make, so on and so forth.

And I addressed the to-hit factor as well :p

Do me a favor. Take more time in posting, go slower, double check what you're posting about. I'd love to provide a real follow-up post here, but there are too many errors in your previous post. I don't really have anything to address.

You know, we could even redo all this with a point-buy stat system, optimizing each build, picking up gear according to wealth-by-level guidelines. I *could* probably rebuild the fighter a bit better. Honestly, though, I'm not terribly interested in that myself. But here are some suggestions for you if you stat out the fighter. Considering we're doing this at level 20, the fighter'd probably get a LOT more mileage out of wielding two 18-20 weapons. the difference between 1d4 and 1d6 *1-2 points* pales in comparison to 1/4 of all hits being criticals. That might actually push the fighter up.

Use the bestiary stats in the back for a cr 20 creature for target ac, saves, all that good stuff. I won't jump on it myself until I know whether you're willing to put the work in to prove your belief, or if you're going to let my numbers stand as is.


Sorry, that's a really bad comparison. First, you're cheating; there are no epic rules for Pathfinder, and thus the Monk's Robe does not increase the Monk's damage past 2d10. Second, your Fighter's to-hit is way too low. Third, you can only use Stunning Fist once per round.

If you want to do a comparison against a fully-built level 20 Fighter, use this one. Note that he's not built to take into account critical hits (and indeed they aren't included in the quoted DPR), so replacing one of his useless feats with Improved Critical would be the fair thing to do if you're going to do crit damage calculations. Also note that is an archer build; he'd actually do more damage as a dual wield sword and board build, but I built him for a specific challenge that a S&B fighter would have failed at. He should still steal any legal monk build's lunch money without breaking a sweat.


You missed as much in my post as I *may* have in yours - no sass necessary there. Long posts - lots of junk, stuff is lost in the shuffle.

But you're premise that the fighter will hit less often is simply not true. With the "to hit" edge he has, he can fully PA and still hit *at least* as well as the monk (better).

I'm ... seriously NOT interested in fully statting stuff up, but the entire premise behind a lot of your junk is just flat out wrong.

Medusae NEEDS some sort of hindering thing active when it's in use ... *maybe* you can land 1 stun as your first attack and *maybe* the target will blow the save (of a low wis-build, too mind you - bad idea especially for Monk planning to go Medusae's rout), and THEN you'll get the extra hits ... if they make that one save when you have a low base DC, Medusae simply won't be a factor.

Doesn't matter "what's" combined - the point is that by RAW it seems that "standard action" activation stuff doesn't stack with each other. That said, even if you did standard attack w/a stun and vital strike ... so what? The stun ends "right" before your turn ... so you'd gain NO benefit of it. It's "ok" for setting up team-mates, though. {at least in that particular combo/opening action/etc}.

On the confusion bit - I'm referencing general things as much as anything you specifically did, so it's wider than just you - likely source of confusion.

Since YOU clearly missed it, I did factor in criticals and such ... for some reason, you chose to ignore it. It's all there, though - so why don't *you* make sure you read as closely as well, eh?

;-)


The way me and my players always imagined it, as a story explanation, is that monks channel their ki into their unarmed strikes, hence why they are deadly enough at a later point to bust down stone walls and kick a great wyrm red dragon's tooth off. They must be above material items covering their body's movements and natural harmony that, for normal people, would increase defense/offense. Their heightened senses and ki becomes weapon and armor. Using implements in addition is a crutch, a form that your melding of mind, body, and spirit has attached itself to and, thus, interrupts the flow of ki. Hence, why armor knocks off monk and Wisdom bonus to AC and things like gauntlets or cestus not dealing additional damage. You've allowed your mind to fool itself into believing it will help channel ki to deal more damage and you've let your body believe itself to rely more on that than itself.

Anyway, that's been our story reasoning for the shortcoming of not being able to deal extra unarmed damage when wearing something "extra" on the hands, feet, head, magical kneecaps, whatever. It disrupts the harmony of mind, soul, and body, the ki energy doesn't flow properly and becomes a discord.

Scarab Sages

pffffsssss

Once again, using YOUR stats, the fighter while power attacking had one less attack bonus than the monk did while not power attacking. According to YOUR fighter stats.

And, repeatedly, I pointed out that the fighter could easily out-attack bonus by not power attacking, or when the monk power attacks. This is what I'm talking about.

Again, with the medusa's thing, that's why I had a whole tree of attack chains and damage. So you could compare them yourself. At no point did I claim anything one way or the other about the monk's frequency of success in setting up the prerequisites for medusa. Also, why are you assuming it's a low wisdom build? Or do you mean that *with the stats we were using* 20's were low? As it is tied for the second-highest stat, I don't see that.

Stunning fist isn't a standard action.

You must declare it before the attack roll, and no more than once a round. If I'm missing the part where it does state that it's a standard action, can you please quote it for me so I can place it in the feat?

You do make an excellent point about the duration however. I'll have to try to come up with a different, better way of giving a foe a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious effect. :/

I never said you DIDN'T factor in critical hits. I actually compared your numbers to mine, in my super long post, compared the numbers and differentials, and mentioned my opinion.

I was specifically replying to this line:

The Speaker In Dreams wrote:


*the fighter's crits by 20th level WILL crit more, and crit harder than a monk.

and then later this line:

The Speaker In Dreams wrote:


You're also assuming *all* 'to hit' chances (ie: attacks) actually are good enough to land. Vs. the AC of 20 level cr's you tossed up, the last 3 strikes on the monk are like 50% or less chance of hitting ... not great, and so that's why I said assume *miss* on these as they're not all that reliable for an 'average' calculation. I did the same to my fighter's as well.

and simply provided a suggestion for the build to improve critical chance by switching weapons to a higher threat range.

Again, the things you claim I said are incorrect. Is there a preferred layout method you'd like me to use to make it easier to track? I've already started limiting the lengths of my posts to make them more readable. I really am interested in going through the specifics, and things like this are frustrating because the misinformation and miscommunication on both sides makes it very hard to get good, useful results out of it :(

Also, I want to be as clear as possible here; I'm not quoting you or claiming you're wrong because I want to point that out. It's only because incorrect information leads to incorrect conclusions, and I'd rather both of us be as much on the same page as possible.

To Zurai:

It's offensive to me that you claim I'm *cheating*. If you think that I'm wrong, that's fine. But "cheating" implies a malicious intent which is not present here.

Page 406 and 407 of the pathfinder core rulebook cover "beyond 20th level". Which would be epic. On 407, there's a section called Scaling Powers. I'll quote the relevant line here for you.
"Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate." Since it is not an all-inclusive list, and I showed earlier how the monks unarmed strike damage improved according to a set, increasing rate, I think it's a reasonable extrapolation.
Additionally, for those who didn't like the monk's robe, I provided adjusted numbers.

I appreciate you providing a completed and statted out fighter build to compare against. Give me a day or two, and I'll get a monk statted out using the same "settings" as the one used. Hopefully, this will provide a better, clearer comparison between the two.

Also, nice build :D

Scarab Sages

Oh, couple questions. I'm assuming that the target ac for your builds dpr calculations was 36, the ac of a balor. Is that correct? Also, were you using any particular dpr calculator? I'm running tejons atm, but if you've got a different one, I'd like to use the same one to try to keep the criteria as similar as possible.


Magicdealer wrote:
pffffsssss

You know ... much as you try and work on clarification - you sure are snarky about it.

*rollseyes*

That said, I *think* I'm finding the confusion source - that being one of "apples" to "oranges" mostly.

In my comparison - I went w/the same tactics - that both characters are using the same PA amount and reducing their *to hit* by a similar amount. "apples" here.

In your comparison, you provided this for the fighter, but did NOT hold it true for the monk. "oranges"

You're also looking at max and min damage ranges instead of just calculating w/the middle (as nearly every DPR build comparison does that I've seen).

Of *course* this will yield different results! You're not using the same approach for both characters.

For instance - you've allowed your monk to land all solid hits, AND get medusae hits (unlikely, and you did provide a with/without sort of thing I believe). That's a HUGE difference my my figured stuff as I simply TOSSED OUT the lower hits entirely and did not allow EITHER the fighter OR the monk the benefit of those strikes ... because they were likely to miss.

You, on the other hand, handed out ALL hits to the monk, but then use *my* damage calculation ... THAT ASSUMES ALL FINAL "to hits" are misses and were NOT a factor (in addition to you having the fighter use PA, and the monk pointedly not use it).

*Of course* this is going to favor your monk build - you're not playing 'em by the same "rules of engagement" so to speak.

I'll go over my #'s again to just give you a fighter that's not dumping anything, and you can use that PA - also, that fighter's "to hits" will *all* hit, and be likely hits (unlike the lower Monk's attack). I'll also assume *maximum* damage since it *looks* like that's what you've done as well.

Ok, so 2-wpn fighter guy NOT dumping for PA.
+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24 are his "to hits - all very good at hitting an AC 36 (*maybe the last one will miss as it needs a 12 or better, but still - assumption is like yours now and *all* hit). So ... 7 hits he's swinging at 1d6+ (4 wpn train) +4(spec) + 10 (str) + 5 (wpn) = 29 dmg per hit x 7 hits = 203 damage.

This, however, is just damage and not taking into account how *likely* either monk or fighter are to land their hits - which will *always* favor the fighter. (which means the monk WILL miss and not land all of his shots where the fighter is much more likely TO hit and land everything he has. DPR is not just potential damage - it's what will actually land and *DO* something to the target).

Now, w/Fighter McFighty there he'll have like a 20% chance (5% for each 1 on the d20 that will cause a crit) that any hit will land as a crit, and for auto-confirm, if a 17 or more comes up, he WILL crit by default. Any crit will jump from 29 damage/hit to 87. Given the fighter's got some 7 attacks here, he can assume 1 crit free of charge (in play, probably more, but whatever - we're playing to *averages* in light of fairness in comparison). So, he'll get 1 crit per round and increase his damage to 261/round.

Mr. Monk - w/str at +10 bonus will have his to hit/damage boon, and the amulet at +5 for the same, so bab +15 = 33/+33/+33+28/+28/+23/+23/+18. You gave him wpn focus I think? so +34/34/29/29/24/24/19. Dmg/hit = 20 (2d10)+10+5 = 35/hit. Impossibly, if all hit, it's 280. Assuming you spent 1 feat on Improved Critical to get a 19-20 range, that's a 10% chance to land a crit (1 in 10 strikes), so no crits are assumed or given.

Clearly, with "all hits land" the monk is superior in Damage Potential - he's swingin' bigger die types.

However, not all hits land, and in my fighter build the 24 I've admitted is nearly as likely to miss as hit, so really it *shouldn't* count. If that's true, then the last 3 hits of the monk shouldn't count at all, either.

Fighter - last hit missing (still has his crit applied here on the 20% chance, though) ==> 232 damage *reliably* dished out.

Monk - last hits missing (still no crit on % factor) ==> 140 (the 24's and 19's are tossed aside as miss, leaving only 4 *reliable* strikes to deliver damage).

As soon as you move beyond theory of damage to application of damage (ie: what can reliably HIT the target) the fighter wins this comparison even WITH the higher damage die going to the monks. This is what I've been trying to show in the first place.

anyway - I *think* I've figured out our disconnect here, and I've run things according to both of our assumptions (near as I can tell anyway - nothing intentional here if somethings taken out of context). So ... the *relevant* part of the comparison that I'm willing to tinker with is done. I hope ... not sure. If not, you clearly have *my* approach listed above, and are free to run the #'s as you'd like to correct anything I missed or got wrong on your approach.

I do, however, stand by the assertion that ONLY *reliable* damage needs to be taken into consideration. At that, *reliable* damage needs to be a LOT better than a 50/50 or 60/40 shot at *maybe* landing a hit (ie: toss out the lower #'s as MISSED 'EM when playing to averages for comparisons, etc).

Liberty's Edge

Apparently a couple of those combination's of numbers separated by slashes is recognized by skype as a phone numbers in Spain.

Who knew?

Scarab Sages

Well, let me start off by apologizing if any of my replies have come off as offensive. That certainly wasn't the tone I was going for with them, and if they came off offensively to you, I am sorry. I tend to over emphasize and overstate elements just to make sure they're seen and understood. I have trouble finding that line between emphasis and over-emphasis.

Apparently, I'm terrible at tone-of-voice in posting :(

You're absolutely right about the baseline differences. I was running the monk fighter builds using power attacking vs non-power attacking to show a comparison of damage at nearly the same attack bonuses. Also, I just took your math and crammed it into my various calculations without much attention to how you got your numbers or what the parameters that you used were.

My original goal was just to compare the damage potential between the two classes. But it's become apparent to me that if I'm going to prove my point, I have to go further with the math.

I'm nearly done *I think* with a dpr version of the monk. First actual dpr calculation series that I've done, so I'm trying to figure out whether to include/exclude crits, and regardless, how to calculate them correctly. I'm thinking that what I need to do for them is calculate the chance of a crit on a particular attack roll, like 19 or higher to hit. Then taking that 10% chance, and multiplying it by the extra damage on the attack, doing that for each chain, and adding it into the total dpr. But I'm not entirely sure yet that the math here is correct. If the attack were 1d8 + 10 19-20 x2, I've got a 10% chance that I hit, a 10% chance it's a crit, leaving me with a .05% chance of the occurance. Then, I'd take 4.5 *average of 1d8*+10=14.5 average extra damage on a crit. Take the two numbers (.05*14.5)= extra dpr from crit of .725 I don't know if that adequately mirrors the effect, not just on the chance to hit, but on that chance to actually be a critical hit or not :/

It should be directly comparable to the build Zurai linked to. As much as possible, I kept the same format, so a general side-by-side comparison should be possible.

So far in my math, assuming I haven't made an error somewhere, the monk is performing well in dpr against the balor. I'm looking forward to finishing it and getting it up so folks can take a look and point out any mistakes I may have made.

Just on a side note, I happened to take another look at stunning fist, and the monk can switch out the effect for others that provide medusa-friendly conditions for multiple rounds. It's not in the feat chapter, but rather the monk class entry about it. For the purposes of the build I'm working on, it's mostly irrelevant since the Balor has a high enough fort save to never fail :p

Of course, I'll still run the numbers with it, but I'll be relying on the regular numbers, sans medusa, for comparison against the fighter.

And due to the... contentions... with the monks robe, I'll be ignoring it in the calculations :)


Yeah .... if you're going for the advanced calculus formula it'll fly clean over my head, man. ;-) I'm not *that* deep with it, but just using basic approaches and simple stuff with a 70% cut-off point as *reliable* damage (ie: needing to roll 6 or more on the D20 ==> *reliable* damage as its' a 70% chance to do this on the d20. 8 or more = 60%, and 10 or more and it's a 50/50 shot - both 50/50 and 60/40 don't seem *reliable* to me).

As for how to do a crit-calculation, you need to run the % of crit, and the % of confirm so like .05% is the chance to confirm for the monk (you got that right), assuming he spent the feat for improved crit. For me, a crit w/19-20 is 10% on the d20, so 1 in 10 strikes can be a crit, but that's w/out going for *confirmation* of crit, which would really bring it down again - so crit-damage on the monk is really, really, really not much of a factor for any *reliable* damage output.

Now, I'm not using formula's like what you got going *at all* I'm just making a cut-off point and calling it "miss" so I'm not really sure how to put even my own stuff into that format (again - not *that* much of a math guy).

At the same time, when you do settle on whatever damage output formula you'd like, keep in mind the fighter is *going* to significantly boost by his % chance of landing the crits ... by a LOT. His damage multiplier will be x3 (not the x2 of a monk), AND he doesn't need to confirm his crits (unlike the monk it's not base % x base % again - it's just the flat % applied to each strike ... this will mean a LOT more damage overtime. Case in point - on 17-20 (imp crit w/sh. sword range), the fighter will have a 20% chance to crit ... on each strike. Period. The monk has a .05% chance to crit ... it's not much of a comparison to make - crits are negligible on monks and significant for fighters. Don't forget this DRASTIC difference as you move forward).

Oh - the fighter will have a LOT more feats to dedicate, too, to crits, so if he has critical focus and even say 3 of the critical feats, when he crits, his target will say take on 2d6 more points of bleed damage in addition ot the crit damage, AND probably pick up horrible status effects - like stunned, or fatigues, or exhausted. Given his ability to auto-confirm crits - this means he'll be REALLY putting the hurt on his targets in a way a monk can't approach.

Scarab Sages

Alrighty, well I appreciate the help with the critical calculations. Hopefully, I've got this guy statted out correctly. :/

The only two attacks I calculated the critical hit on were the base flurry and the power attack flurry. Since those two are the real *compare me* numbers, I wanted to get them stated out.

So without Further Ado:

Monk Test Subject Three

The Boxer:

I assumed that the target ac for the DPR calculations was 36, the Balor’s ac.
The Balor has a fortitude saving bonus of +29, which effectively renders the monks stunning fist ability moot, since it is a fort save of 27.
Which sucks :D
I thought about making all the shurikens +2 returning spell storing, but since the build isn’t a spellcaster I decided to avoid that particular fromage :D These stats are assuming that haste and the ki attack stack. I opened a thread about it, and the majority of responses were that they stacked. It isn't an *official* ruling as of yet, but the closest I can get to one.

Monk Test Subject 3
Male Human Monk 20
Alignment: LN
Str: 38 (+14) [17 points, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance., +2 size]
Dex: 22 (+6) [3 points, +6 enhance., +5 inherent, -2 size]
Con: 12 (+1) [0 points, +2 enhance.]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 24 (+7) [5 points, +6 item ., +4 inherent ]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]

Class and Racial abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Stunning Fist
Unarmed Strike
Evasion
Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Slow fall any distance
Ki pool (adamantine) 17 points *1/2 lvl + wisdom modifier*
High Jump
Purity of body
Wholeness of body
Improved Evasion
Diamond Body
Abundant step
Diamond soul spell resistance 30
Quivering Palm
Timeless body
Tongue of the sun and moon
Empty body
Perfect Self

Hit Dice: 20d8 + 40 (+1con/lvl, +1 favored class/lvl)
Hit Points: 130
AC: 36 (10 base, +7 armor, +7 Wisdom, +6 Dexterity, +5 AC Bonus, -1 Size, +2 Dodge and Haste) [36 Touch, 28 Flat-footed]
Init: +12 (+6 Dex, +4 Feat, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 60ft

Saves:
Fortitude +20 [+12 base, +1 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +27 [+12 base, +7 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck, +1 Haste]
Will +26 [+12 base, +7 Wis, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]

BAB: +15 (+20 while flurrying)
Ranged Flurry Atk: +26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (1d2+18 / x2; average 19.5)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +6 Dex, -2 Rapid Shot, , -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 Competence, +1 Haste, +3 Enhancement)
(Damage Breakdown: 1.5 average of 1d2, +14 Strength, +1 Competence, +3 Enhancement)
(Damage Per Round: 5 attack @ 50% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage, 2 attacks @ 25% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage, 2 attacks @ 5% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 5% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage; (5*0.5*19.5)+(2*0.25*19.5)+(3*.05*19.5)= 61.425
Ranged Deadly Aim Flurry Atk: +20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 (1d2+30 / x2; average 31.5)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +6 Dex, -2 Rapid Shot, -6 Deadly Aim, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 competence +1 Haste, +3 Enhancement)
(Damage Breakdown: 1.5 average of 1d2, +14 Strength, +12 Deadly Aim, +1 Competence, +3 Enhancement)
(Damage Per Round: 5 attack @ 20% chance to hit for 27.5 average damage, 2 attacks @ 15% chance to hit for 27.5 average damage, 2 attacks @ 5% chance to hit for 27.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 5% chance to hit for 27.5 average damage; (5*0.2*31.5)+(5*0.05*31.5)= 39.375

Melee Flurry Atk: +39/+39/+39/39/+34/+34/29/29/24 (2d12+19 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 13 average of 2d12, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement,)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 32 average damage, 2 attacks @ 90% chance to hit for 32 average damage, 2 attacks @ 65% chance to hit for 32 average damage,1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 32 average damage; (4*0.95*32)+(2*0.90*32)+(2*0.65*32)+(0.4*32) = 233.6
Crits would be: (4*(.1*.95)*32)+(2*(.1*.9)*32)+(2*(.1*.65)*32)+((.1*.4)*32)= 23.36
DPR with Crits = 256.96
Melee Power Attack Flurry Atk: +33/+33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 (2d12+31 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -6 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 13 average of 2d12, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +12 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 44 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 44 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 44 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 44 average damage; (4*0.85*44)+(2*0.60*44)+(2*0.35*44)+(.1%*44) = 237.6
Crits would be: (4*(.1*.85)*44)+(2*(.1*.6)*44)+ (2*(.1*.35)*44)+ ((.1*.1)*44) =23.73
DPR with Crits = 260.73
Melee Medusa’s Wrath Flurry Atk: +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/29/29/24 (2d12+19 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 13 average of 2d12, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement,)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 32 average damage, 2 attacks @ 90% chance to hit for 32 average damage, 2 attacks @ 65% chance to hit for 32 average damage,1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 32 average damage; (6*0.95*32)+(2*0.90*32)+(2*0.65*32)+(0.4*32) = 294.4
Melee Medusa’s Wrath Power Attack Flurry Atk: +33/+33/+33/+33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 (2d12+31 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -6 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 13 average of 2d12, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +12 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 44 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 44 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 44 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 44 average damage; (6*0.85*44)+(2*0.60*44)+(2*0.35*44)+(.1%*44) = 312.4

CMB: +35 (+20 Monk Levels, +14 Str, +1 Size,) *+4 to grapple, +4 to overrun*
CMD: +51 (cannot be grappled, +10 base, +20 HD, +14 Strength, +6 Dexterity, +1 size)
Skills:
Acrobatics +31 (20 ranks, +6 Dex, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class) *+20 to jump*
Perception +32 (20 ranks, +7 Wis, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class)
Spellcraft +25 (20 ranks, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class)
Sense Motive +32 (20 ranks, +7 Wis, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class)
Feats:
Improved Initiative (Human Bonus)
Dodge (Monk Bonus)
Defensive Combat Training (HD 1)
Improved Grapple (Monk Bonus)
Power Attack -5/-6 to hit, +10/+12 damage (HD 3)
Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (HD 5)
Improved Overrun (Monk Bonus)
Deadly Aim -5/-6 to hit, +10/+12 damage (HD 7)
Greater Grapple (HD 9)
Medusa’s Wrath (Monk Bonus)
Greater Overrun (HD 11)
Point Blank Shot (HD 13)
Improved Critical (Monk Bonus)
Combat Reflexes (HD 15)
Rapid Shot (HD 17)
Deflect Arrows (Monk Bonus)
Lunge (HD 19)

Equipment:
Amulet of mighty fists +5
bracers of armor +7
ring of freedom of movement
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied)
manual of gainful exercise +5 (already applied)
tome of understanding +4 (already applied)
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
headband of inspired wisdom +6
cloak of resistance +5
pale green prism ioun stone
pink rhomboid ioun stone
luckstone
permanency enlarge person
boots of speed
10 +3 returning shurikans
Money:
880,000g WBL
-
125,000
49,000
50,320
40,000
137,500
137,500
110,000
90,000
36,000
25,000
30,000
8,000
20,000
2,500
12,000
6,400

=
780g remaining

For comparison, use the fighter archer build created here by Zurai. I did my best to keep the formatting the same to make comparisons easier.
A large chunk of this was completed between the hours of 1am and 7 am, thanks to my summertime insomnia. If you find any errors, please let me know so I can correct them :)


Bah, now I'm going to have to work out FighterMan's crit DPR. Gimme a few to re-jig my code.

EDIT: Counting crits, FighterMan's DPR is 323.375. That's 24% higher than the non-Medusa Monk's DPR, and ~4% higher than the absolute best-case Monk's DPR.

Note also that I do not believe the extra attack from the ki point stacks with haste, and again, Stunning Fist may only be used once per round, so Medusa's Wrath is hardly going to be a common occurance. Also, FighterMan wasn't allowed to use any spells with a duration shorter than hours per level, so the Monk's permanent enlarge person would break that rule (plus it's a bad investment in general). Also, your Monk was seemingly built with a 25 point buy, while FighterMan used a 20 (actually 19, although that doesn't matter to the question at hand) point buy.

Anyway, I think that 24% shows what I was talking about. Monks simply don't do the damage Fighters do, even with all those advantages listed.

Scarab Sages

I'm looking at these stats, copy/pasted:

Str: 24 (+7) [5 points, +6 enhance., +4 inherent]
Dex: 34 (+12) [10 points, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +2 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]

Adding the points up gets me at 24 points for your build. Basically, all I did was rearrange the stat bonuses from what you had.

I moved the con bonus and half the dex bonus to strength, and picked up a +5 book for the strength.

I read through the dpr superstar thread, and there were a few builds there using permanency for various effects. Also, I didn't see anything in the archer fighters thread about restrictions, so I did my best to extrapolate. But I think the evaluation comes out very favorable to the monk.

Sans crits, which I'm not sure I calculated correctly, the Monk build has a DPR of 237.6.

That's without medusa, without the monks robe, without a permanency greater magic weapon, and what-have-you.

The Archer Fighter build, sans crits, has a DPR of 255.875.

The monk build has a higher armor class, a better will save *which helps to resist the dominate*, spell resistance, a significantly higher cmb, and a slightly higher cmd, an attack bonus within 5 points of the fighter build, twice as many skills, and five less feats than the fighter.

As the armor class increases, the fighter's dpr will scale better. As it decreases, the monks dpr will scale better. At ac 36, they're both able to deal out comparable damage. I didn't calculate crits into anything but the two base attacks. I'll go through and calculate the crit dpr, and add it to the medusa's attacks. Once I'm done, I'll post the calculations for it and the adjusted numbers.

Obviously, the fighter's capstone ability here is adding a significant bonus to the damage per round, which it should. But I think that once I calculate my best-scenario dpr, I'll pass the fighters dpr even after the extra goodies.

Regardless, I think the numbers here are pretty comparable. Sans crits, the fighter and the monk are within 18 dpr points of each other. For a class that folks constantly talk about being underpowered, that's pretty darn good.

The capstone ability changes the difference between dpr to about 63 points in the fighter's favor.

The crit calculations for the best-case monk attacks *power attacking medusa flurry* are:

Crits would be: (6*(.1*.85)*44)+(2*(.1*.6)*44)+ (2*(.1*.35)*44)+ ((.1*.1)*44) = 22.44+5.28+3.08+.44=31.24

Best case Dpr is 31.24+312.4 or
343.64

which is about 20 points in the monks favor over the fighters dpr. Now, a couple notes about the stunning fist, which lets this work. The monk can make a stunning fist attack, and paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The dc for this is 10 + 1/2 monks level + wis modifier. The dc becomes 27 for this monk.

The good and poor saves for a cr 20 creature according to the bestiary should be 22 and 17 respectively. That means against a creature with a good save, the stunning fist has a 25% chance of working. Against a poor save, it's 50%. The balor being a cr 20 creature has a much higher than average good save :D

All in all, with how very comparable these builds are, I think it does a fine job of showing how an additional +5 in bonuses could really tilt the dpr in the monks favor.

Assuming, again, that I didn't mess up with the math somewhere. :D


Magicdealer wrote:
Adding the points up gets me at 24 points for your build. Basically, all I did was rearrange the stat bonuses from what you had.

Yeah, you're right about that. My apologies.

Quote:
I read through the dpr superstar thread, and there were a few builds there using permanency for various effects. Also, I didn't see anything in the archer fighters thread about restrictions, so I did my best to extrapolate.

That's because the challenge that sparked FighterMan's creation was in a different thread (one on class tiers, if I recall correctly). AMiB challenged anyone to make a Fighter that could reliably kill a Balor in 2 rounds without being a specialized Balor-killer or using any short-duration buffs. I don't really blame you for not knowing of the no-buffs restriction, but it is a constraint that FighterMan was built under.

Quote:

Sans crits, which I'm not sure I calculated correctly, the Monk build has a DPR of 237.6.

That's without medusa, without the monks robe, without a permanency greater magic weapon, and what-have-you.

But with a dubiously-stacking extra attack and a buff that FM didn't have access to. Without that extra attack and the extra damage from enlarge person, your Monk drops dramatically in DPR.

Scarab Sages

Yay, finally found the post you were referring to. The guidelines you were given are as follows:

WBL, 24 point-buy, kindly no bane shenanigans, you're spotted hour/level cleric or wizard buffs if you want them. It'd probably be best if we did this in another thread.

No restrictions on buffs there as long as you account for the cost of acquisition. Heck, I might have to check for cleric or wizard buffs that would help and are hour/level.

But, again, lemme point out a few things that are very important to the self-image of the monk.

A level 19 archer fighter will be comparable in damage to a level 19 melee monk. A level 20 fighter pulls ahead through the class capstone ability. Can we agree on this?

The concept that the monk is significantly disadvantaged in combat compared to the fighter is arguably incorrect based on the comparison results we already have.

Additionally, providing the monk an additional +5 in damage bonuses will tip the scales for the monk.

Hmm... lets compare with a +10 amulet. Then the amulet could be holy (+2) Axiomatic (+2) Keen +1. Vs the balor, you've got one unhappy balor.

Also, here's a link to the page where the rules were outlined.

It takes the fighter capstone ability in order to out-do damage-wise. The monks capstone ability is dr 10/chaotic and outsider subtype :p

If you take the monk's build and add in the extra 4d6 from holy/axiomatic *totally comparable since the archer fighter is factoring in the extra 2d6 for the arrow damage bonuses*, you add 14 to the base damage.
Melee Power Attack Flurry Atk: +33/+33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 (2d12+45 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -6 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 13 average of 2d12, 14 average from 4d6 lawful/axiomatic 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +12 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 59 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 59 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 59 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 59 average damage; (4*0.85*59)+(2*0.60*59)+(2*0.35*59)+(.1%*59) = 318.6
Crits would be: (4*(.1*.85)*59)+(2*(.1*.6)*59)+ (2*(.1*.35)*59)+ ((.1*.1)*59) = 31.86
DPR with Crits = 350.46

So, effectively, the monk with a +10 weapon will crank out 350.46 dpr on a power-attacking flurry. The archer fighter will be doing 323.375.

This puts the monk ahead by 27 dpr or so, and this isn't even the best possible scenario. No medusa's strike, which adds about a hundred dpr to the number.

All-in-all, I'm pretty satisfied with that last bit of calculation that I've proved why its a bad idea to let a monk go up to +10 :p


Magicdealer wrote:

I'm looking at these stats, copy/pasted:

Str: 24 (+7) [5 points, +6 enhance., +4 inherent]
Dex: 34 (+12) [10 points, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +2 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]

Why is your monk stacking a high Dex? a 34 strength would go MILES towards a higher DPR. He might not be quite as armored as a fighter with a measly 24 dex, but he's a striker not a tank.

Scarab Sages

:p those weren't my monks stats. Those were the stats of the fighter, quoted to show the point buy he used.

Look up the thread a bit. My monk build is in a spoiler box.

:D


IMO - what we need is fighter man re-arranged at his level, and with this comparison in mind - dpr, NOT "kill a balor w/restrictions in place" at this point.

The monk looks good - I don't think anyone questions that - but the idea that it out DPR's the fighter in nuts.

The *only* thing I could find *wrong* in your calculations, though is that the power attack limit of the monk would be -4/+8 as they can't hit the +16 bab req to get the -5, or the +20 to hit the +12. So, on that point you're off a bit in your #'s.

I'd call it *minimal* in impact, but since you've using multiplication formula's of some kind ... it's a difference of 4 points being multiplied at several points ... somehow (seriously - NO idea how that stuff works you laid out). I just know it's wrong and skews your #'s in a direction they should not be skewed.

One thing to keep in mind, though is that the critical effect feats a fighter can/will/should be created with WILL dramatically improve his damage overall. Whether through bleed damage (2d6), or through stagger/stun effects being laid on the target (lowering of the AC of the target ... by a LOT ==> EVERY fighter hit will land after this effect is in play - and by %'s, it WILL come into play).

Once you got a primary fighter-guy set for melee, with his crit feats lined up and his DPR's are all set, maybe a level 19 vs. level 19 analysis would be a good idea?

{wish I could help out with some of this -- just can't get a handle on how you all do that dpr multiples junk ...}


Magicdealer wrote:

:p those weren't my monks stats. Those were the stats of the fighter, quoted to show the point buy he used.

Look up the thread a bit. My monk build is in a spoiler box.

:D

hah! My bad :) serves me right for posting in a rush before work :D


Magicdealer wrote:


(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -6 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 13 average of 2d12, 14 average from 4d6 lawful/axiomatic 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +12 power attack)

Just to point out, an Enlarged (formerly Medium-sized) Monk Unarmed Damage at 20th level is 4d8, not 2d12, since each d10 becomes 2d8 when Size increases (you can check it either under the Monk Rules for Large Monks Unarmed Damage or on 'Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage' under Weapon Descriptions).

Average damage for each attack (not counting bonuses) would become 18, not 13.

Just my 2c.

EDIT: just to add, Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike (sadly Greater Vital Strike is out, due to BaB requirements) is very good for a Monk, provided the -3 to hit (BaB +15 instead of BaB +20 and -2 TWF while flurrying) is not too much of a penalty. The Vital Strike feat chain rewards high (base) damage weapons, and a 4d8 weapon is... good (12d8 with Imp. Vital Strike + bonuses for a single attack). Average damage (without bonuses) = 54 (85 with +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +12 Power Attack). For a non-critical Standard attack I would say this is good, but of course YMMV (134 with a Critical Hit, since it would be 16d6+62 on a Crit).

Scarab Sages

Ahh, good catch on the weapon dice! I'll make the adjustments and redo the math, then repost.

Speaker, when the monk is flurrying, for the purpose of those attacks the monks bab is = to his level. Feats which are activated on those attacks would use the bab those attacks used.


Magicdealer wrote:
Speaker, when the monk is flurrying, for the purpose of those attacks the monks bab is = to his level. Feats which are activated on those attacks would use the bab those attacks used.

not true.

Scarab Sages

Well, let's take a look.

Flurry of blows: For the purposes of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.

Power Attack: When your base attack bonus reaches +4 and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

So when making a flurry of blows, the monks base attack bonus is 20.

Then, using the power attack feat, which uses the base attack bonus that is = to 20 at this point, you get the -6 +12.

Though I kind of expect that taking a -5 to hit would actually improve the dpr :p


Magicdealer wrote:

Well, let's take a look.

Actually we should:

Rules wrote:


You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage

It doesn't say "When your Base attack bonus for these attacks reaches +4" it says "When your base attack bonus" reaches +4. Your BAB is only +15 at level 20.

Since your actual BAB isn't +20 at 20th level you don't get the full bonus of power attack -- you act for those attacks as if your BAB is +20 but that doesn't mean your BAB actually is +20.

Liberty's Edge

I think this is an issue of specificity: The monk rule is more specific to than the feat rule as it only applies to a subset of characters where the feat applies to all characters.
The feat assumes you only have one BAB, because that's true of absolutely everyone but monk. Really, this should be the state for all feats. This is why the monk has text which states "For X use Y BAB, for Z use W BAB". In this case the "Z" is permanent things, such as prerequisites, and W is their normal BAB. "X" is for instantaneous things like figuring out how well you hit, with "Y" being a number at least 1 higher than W.
EDIT: In case I didn't make it clear, I support that monks would get more benefit/tradeoff with things like power attack while using flurry.


Wow .... just ... wow.

You're bending things THAT far to get the mileage of a FULL BAB class for a class rated as a 3/4 bab class ...

I'm pretty sure I've contributed what I *can* here. But I, at least, am fully convinced that you're off in House Rule territory. Which is *cool* if that's the way you want to run it in your games. NO beef w/that, or how you choose to run it. Honestly, I'd probably run right along side of you there doing it.

That said, NO WAY is crap like that even *remotely* feasible for something like a DPR build using RAW/RAI ... that's so far off the "norm" it's just reeks of manipulation of words and sticking to words over intent. No thanks.

Run what #'s you want at this point - I'm not sure I can take any of them seriously for *ANYTHING* outside of a house-ruled game and DPR comparison in that same game ...

As for "that's true of everyone but the monk" - no. It's true for them, too. The whole "flurry" improvement thing is another example of a Piazo/PF "add on" and change to the class that is new and hasn't been fully vetted for the rules-lawyers out there to try and loop hole to their hearts content. By 3.x, Monks got to flurry, but it was kept to their BAB values. PF tried to improve it *some*, but not by giving away the farm to do so (ie: full bab progression), so what they did was create one *small* category - the flurry, where they essentially got to mimic two weapon fighting to get a higher "to hit" chance as a comparison point, while NOT actually getting the full bab status. Reading as closely as you are puts you in a position that firmly ignores the *why* of monks not getting a full bab progression in the first place. In other words, you've ignored the RAI.

Edit: Just found this line in the Monk's breakdown from the srd, "For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus."

The emphasis is mine, but it sounds pretty clear at the "for all other purposes" business. Power Attack is a feat and it's "another purpose" near as I can tell to use the monk level bab for ANYTHING other than to determine an attack or "to hit" chance.

Liberty's Edge

Really they should have made the monk a full BAB class in the first place. None of this "full BAB only on full-round attacks and CMD" crap. An extra 1 HP / level and 0.25/level to-hit on AoOs and standard action attacks (including charges, overruns, bullrushes and special feats like cleave) is far from too much for the class, which is a full martial class in 3/4 clothing anyway.

That said, I'm a supporter of the following idea: Flurry increases your BAB for instantaneous effects related to BAB (such as to-hit/damage on a single swing) but not for long-term effects (like meeting pre-requisites). Because this is how I draw the line through the sand of ambiguity I interpret your higher BAB during flurry as causing a bigger -/+ for power attack and similar feats for their use (because their use is a single event) but not for meeting the prerequisites to take them (even if you could only use it while flurrying in the mean time).

EDIT: You can RAI all you want, but the "treated as full BAB" thing wasn't JUST flurry, it was also for CMD (admittedly a feature that didn't exist in 3.5, but the concept did as your resistance was based on a competing roll that could include BAB).

In the end, having a class that is almost fully focused on martial combat rather than skills/casting/etc (the same amount that, say, a ranger is) but NOT having full BAB is almost an insult. Ranger also can get TWF without meeting prerequisites, but they get full BAB all the time.

Scarab Sages

Well, if you've got an issue, that's fine. Not much I can do about that. I will point out however that the -5 +10 is actually BETTER for the monks dpr than the -6 +12.

If you can point me to a dev post, I'm happy to use that.

However, either interpretation is RAI. Either you're deciding that power attack ignores the current base attack bonus in favor of the other bab, or you're deciding that power attack ignores the usual bab in favor of the current bab.

I went with the less powerful interpretation. If you want me to use the better one, I've got no issue with that. I *am* trying to apply the rules correctly, disregarding how I would treat those mechanics personally.

If you disagree with something I've said, that's fine. But provide actual reasons why instead of general complaining that sounds more like you just don't like it.

But provide rules, provide dev weigh-ins, provide proof that one interpretation is correct over the others. You claim that power attack with the monk is limited to -5 +10, but I've shown pretty standard arguments as to why that's not a definitive answer. There are many threads about it. Similarly with ki strike, flurry, and haste.

You can complain about how the build is invalid all you want, but you're not providing proof of that fact. I haven't been able to find any definitive statements on haste one way or the other. I haven't been able to find any definitive statements against power attacking one way or the other. If you can find those, link them, and I'll be more than happy to go with it. If everything was as clear cut as you'd like, threads concerning those issues wouldn't keep popping up.

Also, Speaker, you could try being a little less hostile. I'm attempting to make this comparison in good faith as much as possible, and you are insulting me, and attempting to override mechanics that you don't like with your personal view of how those mechanics should work. Notice that I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to apply the mechanics correctly and am actively looking for dev weigh-ins. Any time something crops up that we disagree on, you respond with lines like "NO WAY is crap like that even *remotely* feasible", "it's just reeks of manipulation of words". You seriously need to stop and think about what you're accusing me of, and what that's supposed to accomplish for you.

Abraham, I've seen that line of reasoning before. I don't think it invalidates this line: "the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level". When you're making those flurry attacks, your bab is 20/15/10/5. Power attack checks, 20 = -6 +12. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to go with -5 +10, because it nets the build a better DPR. I just don't think that's a definitive argument there since you can easily argue that the base attack bonus is 20. Flurry doesn't say *as if your bab is 20. It actually changes your bab to 20.

Have the devs popped in on it yet?

I have to assume one is correct over the other, not just for this, but for elements like haste + flurry in order to even provide dpr numbers. Without definitive answers either way, I have to make the call. I'm more than happy to adjust things when there *is* a definitive answer, but sans that, neither choice is definitively correct or incorrect.

That was a lot of definitives.

Anyhow, I should have a revised build up in three or four hours. Changes to this version of the monk will be the appropriate enlarge damage of 4d8 instead of 2d12. I will go ahead and adjust the power attack bonus from -6 +12 to -5 +10 as per request.

Scarab Sages

Ok, so here're the updated numbers. I made a few changes. I removed the block of ranged shuriken attacks as unnecessary. I changed the damage dice from 2d12 to 4d8 to correctly mirror the improved damage of a large monk. Due to popular request, I changed the power attack bonus to -5 hit +10 damage. I added a second section with dpr numbers for all the attacks sans the extra attack from haste. I kept the other benefits from haste, since that extra +1 to hit is totally worthwhile. Overall, the dpr went up.

revised boxer monk:

Monk Test Subject 3
Male Human Monk 20
Alignment: LN
Str: 38 (+14) [17 points, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance., +2 size]
Dex: 22 (+6) [3 points, +6 enhance., +5 inherent, -2 size]
Con: 12 (+1) [0 points, +2 enhance.]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 24 (+7) [5 points, +6 item ., +4 inherent ]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]

Class and Racial abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Stunning Fist
Unarmed Strike
Evasion
Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Slow fall any distance
Ki pool (adamantine) 17 points *1/2 lvl + wisdom modifier*
High Jump
Purity of body
Wholeness of body
Improved Evasion
Diamond Body
Abundant step
Diamond soul spell resistance 30
Quivering Palm
Timeless body
Tongue of the sun and moon
Empty body
Perfect Self

Hit Dice: 20d8 + 40 (+1con/lvl, +1 favored class/lvl)
Hit Points: 130
AC: 36 (10 base, +7 armor, +7 Wisdom, +6 Dexterity, +5 AC Bonus, -1 Size, +2 Dodge and Haste) [36 Touch, 28 Flat-footed]
Init: +12 (+6 Dex, +4 Feat, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 60ft

Saves:
Fortitude +20 [+12 base, +1 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +27 [+12 base, +7 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck, +1 Haste]
Will +26 [+12 base, +7 Wis, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]

BAB: +15 (+20 while flurrying)
Melee Flurry Atk with Haste: +39/+39/+39/39/+34/+34/29/29/24 (4d8+19 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement,)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 90% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 65% chance to hit for 37 average damage,1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 37 average damage; (4*0.95*37)+(2*0.90*37)+(2*0.65*37)+(0.4*37) = 270.1
Crits would be: (4*(.1*.95)*37)+(2*(.1*.9)*37)+(2*(.1*.65)*37)+((.1*.4)*37)= 27.01
DPR with Crits = 297.11
Melee Power Attack Flurry Atk With Haste: +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19 (4d8+29 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -5 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +10 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 47 average damage; (4*0.90*47)+(2*0.65*47)+(2*0.40*47)+(.15%*47) = 274.95
Crits would be: (4*(.1*.90)*47)+(2*(.1*.65)*47)+ (2*(.1*.40)*47)+ ((.1*.15)*47) =27.495
DPR with Crits = 302.445
Melee Medusa’s Wrath Flurry Atk With Haste: +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/29/29/24 (4d8+19 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement,)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 90% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 65% chance to hit for 37 average damage,1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 37 average damage; (6*0.95*37)+(2*0.90*37)+(2*0.65*37)+(0.4*37) = 294.4
Crits would be: (6*(.1*.95)*37)+(2*(.1*.9)*37)+(2*(.1*.65)*37)+((.1*.4)*37)= 34.04
DPR with Crits = 328.44
Melee Medusa’s Wrath Power Attack Flurry Atk With Haste: +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19 (4d8+31 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -5 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +10 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 47 average damage; (6*0.90*47)+(2*0.65*47)+(2*0.40*47)+(.15*47) = 359.55
Crits would be: (6*(.1*.90)*47)+(2*(.1*.65)*47)+ (2*(.1*.40)*47)+ ((.1*.15)*47) =35.955
DPR with Crits = 395.505

Melee Flurry Atk without Haste: +39/+39/39/+34/+34/29/29/24 (4d8+19 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement,)
(Damage Per Round: 3 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 90% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 65% chance to hit for 37 average damage,1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 37 average damage; (3*0.95*37)+(2*0.90*37)+(2*0.65*37)+(0.4*37) = 234.95
Crits would be: (3*(.1*.95)*37)+(2*(.1*.9)*37)+(2*(.1*.65)*37)+((.1*.4)*37)= 23.495
DPR with Crits = 258.445
Melee Power Attack Flurry Atk Without Haste: +34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19 (4d8+29 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -5 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +10 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 47 average damage; (3*0.90*47)+(2*0.65*47)+(2*0.40*47)+(.15%*47) = 232.65
Crits would be: (3*(.1*.90)*47)+(2*(.1*.65)*47)+ (2*(.1*.40)*47)+ ((.1*.15)*47) =23.265
DPR with Crits = 255.915
Melee Medusa’s Wrath Flurry Without Haste Atk: +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/29/29/24 (4d8+19 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement,)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 90% chance to hit for 37 average damage, 2 attacks @ 65% chance to hit for 37 average damage,1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 37 average damage; (5*0.95*37)+(2*0.90*37)+(2*0.65*37)+(0.4*37) = 259.25
Crits would be: (5*(.1*.95)*37)+(2*(.1*.9)*37)+(2*(.1*.65)*37)+((.1*.4)*37)= 30.525
DPR with Crits = 289.775
Melee Medusa’s Wrath Power Attack Flurry Without Haste Atk: +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19 (4d8+31 / 19-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +14 Str, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, -2 Flurry, -1 size, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste, -5 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 18 average of 4d8, 14 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +10 power attack)
(Damage Per Round: 4 attacks @ 85% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 60% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 2 attacks @ 35% chance to hit for 47 average damage, 1 attack @.1% chance to hit for 47 average damage; (5*0.90*47)+(2*0.65*47)+(2*0.40*47)+(.15*47) = 317.25
Crits would be: (5*(.1*.90)*47)+(2*(.1*.65)*47)+ (2*(.1*.40)*47)+ ((.1*.15)*47) =31.765
DPR with Crits = 349.015

CMB: +35 (+20 Monk Levels, +14 Str, +1 Size,) *+4 to grapple, +4 to overrun*
CMD: +51 (cannot be grappled, +10 base, +20 HD, +14 Strength, +6 Dexterity, +1 size)
Skills:
Acrobatics +31 (20 ranks, +6 Dex, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class) *+20 to jump*
Perception +32 (20 ranks, +7 Wis, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class)
Spellcraft +25 (20 ranks, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class)
Sense Motive +32 (20 ranks, +7 Wis, +1 Competence, +1 Luck, +3 Class)
Feats:
Improved Initiative (Human Bonus)
Dodge (Monk Bonus)
Defensive Combat Training (HD 1)
Improved Grapple (Monk Bonus)
Power Attack -5/-6 to hit, +10/+12 damage (HD 3)
Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (HD 5)
Improved Overrun (Monk Bonus)
Deadly Aim -5/-6 to hit, +10/+12 damage (HD 7)
Greater Grapple (HD 9)
Medusa’s Wrath (Monk Bonus)
Greater Overrun (HD 11)
Point Blank Shot (HD 13)
Improved Critical (Monk Bonus)
Combat Reflexes (HD 15)
Rapid Shot (HD 17)
Deflect Arrows (Monk Bonus)
Lunge (HD 19)

Equipment:
Amulet of mighty fists +5
bracers of armor +7
ring of freedom of movement
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied)
manual of gainful exercise +5 (already applied)
tome of understanding +4 (already applied)
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
headband of inspired wisdom +6
cloak of resistance +5
pale green prism ioun stone
pink rhomboid ioun stone
luckstone
permanency enlarge person
boots of speed
10 +3 returning shurikans
Money:
880,000g WBL
-
125,000
49,000
50,320
40,000
137,500
137,500
110,000
90,000
36,000
25,000
30,000
8,000
20,000
2,500
12,000
6,400

=
780g remaining

Fighterman's dpr, revised by Zurai, is "Counting crits, FighterMan's DPR is 323.375"


I'll repeat that FighterMan is completely unbuffed (save for the haste from his boots, which the Monk also uses), while you're using a short-duration buff on your Monk (permanency is anything but, especially when every other monster past CR 12 or so has dispel magic as an SLA, frequently at will). To be completely fair, they both have to be built under the same conditions.

Also...

Quote:
However, either interpretation is RAI.

This cannot be true. The intent of the rules cannot be for both statements to be correct.

Scarab Sages

RAI = rules as interpreted

both are interpretations

thus, both are rai.

or

RAI = rules as intended

without clarification on intent

both are equally valid possibilities.

To be fair, the monk was built using the same guidelines as the archer fighter. I copy/pasted the restrictions you were put under, and a permanent enlarge is a: not against those restrictions b: probably bad for the fighter due to the dex penalty to hit *not guaranteed though, since the extra damage might make up for it at that attack bonus*. reduce person suffers from the same issue. the str penalty might not make the dex bonus worthwhile. Though it might be worthwhile to run the fighter archer's numbers with both effects, to see which one is more beneficial.

An argument about permanency being dispelled is similar to an argument about a magical weapons bonuses being suppressed, or the weapon being sundered, or other magical gear being disjunction'd. There are *always* ways to remove bonuses. But once we start the bonus/counter bonus argument, we whittle the characters down to nothing that is comparable.

I'll tell you what though.

With your permission, once you're satisfied as to the legitimacy/accuracy of the monk build, I'll go through and apply the same process I've used with the monk to the fightermans build to see if I can squeeze more dpr out of it. I'll test archers, two weapon fighters, two-handed fighters, and improv fighters to see which ones come out on top.

Honestly, I don't think permanent spells should be disqualified here. For either build. They don't go against the build requirements and limitations, and are usually one of the first things I try to go after for damage-based monks, and str based fighters.

But, assuming you don't have a problem with me playing with fightermans build a bit, once the monk is acceptable, I'll apply both enlarge/reduce, and see what else I can tweak for more archery-based damage. Your call though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dukai wrote:

Can you provide a source for why an unarmed attack (even one made with a weapon) would not add monk bonus damage? Your argument makes sense, but I'd really like to either find a reference that proves one way or another or get an official ruling.

You are so right about the wrist slot. I didn't realize they were separate...in fact I could have sworn that I read gloves and bracers fill the same slot. That fixes that problem pretty easily.

It's actually very simple. an attack with a cestus is an armed attack, just like any other weapon. It's not the same as a monk's unarmed strike so it's not going to get that damage.

The monk's damage bonus with unarmed attack is a balance against the difficulty of adding enchantments to that attack. That's why the later Ki abilities allow you to add aligment and dr bypassing effects to it. Allowing it with the cestus makes it an option too good to not take, so eventually every monk beccomes a cestus wielding one.


For clarification:

@Magicdealer - I wasn't addressing you, but Stabbity Doom's word-smithing.

To get where he's going, he's pointedly ignoring both established system precedent, and choosing to focus only upon the "gift giving" phrases rather than the "limiting" phrases.

You can't latch onto one, and ignore the other - especially when it follows FAST on the heels of the first by 1 sentence.

I know you've been trying to figure "the right way" of it, and are waiting for developers - that's totally fine. It's NOT the approach Doom took, though, and that just got to me.

So, none of that was for you - you've clearly been searching for the *right* of it. Doom's looking to manipulate RAW to only pick up "gifts" and leave the "limitations" on the back-burner, or pretend they don't exist.

So ... yeah. Either way, I'm more or less finished. That stuff, though - NOT directed at you. Sorry if you got caught up in the mix, though. ;-)

You've been pretty even-handed, so I wouldn't throw that much at your feet. (and you're still planning to be even-handed by revising fighter-man)

Oh! One thing, though - on Mr. Archer - you all *did* change/calculate his crit damage with bows as x4, right? That's where he'd be ... just an FYI. If he were permanently enlarged, it would hurt a bit more I'd think, but it's only a +1 to damage - *probably* easily enough handled by taking a -1 on PA to get w/out dealing w/the problems of Enlarge constantly. {where Enlarge really *is* a good pick for a monk}

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