Monster Advancement (+Class Levels) Problem


Rules Questions


So I'm statting up some troglodyte cannibals for an upcoming adventure. I'm following the rules for adding class levels to monsters to the letter.

I made the 'default' troglodyte a regular trog with one level of barbarian. This works out to CR 2 (base CR 1, plus 1 for a level of barbarian). It's a tribe of savage troglodytes who have completely descended into madness and cannibalism... so I figure even the young trogs should be dangerous little monsters. The Young Creature template is perfect for this, so I take my troglodyte barbarian and give it the template. The troglodyte youngling works out to CR 1.

Here are the stats for the CR 2 troglodyte cannibal.

Troglodyte Cannibal:
TROGLODYTE CANNIBAL CR 2
XP 600; male or female troglodyte barbarian 1
CE Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 90 ft., Perception +1
Aura stench (30 ft., DC 14, 10 rounds)
DEFENSE
AC 21, ff 20, t 11 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +6 natural)
hp 24 (1d12+2d8+9)
Fort +9, Ref +1, Will +1
Immune troglodyte stench
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., (40 ft. without armor)
Melee 2 claws +6 (1d4+3) and bite +5 (1d4+3)
Ranged javelin +3 (1d6+3)
Special Attacks rage (7 rounds)
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 16
Feats Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (claws)
Skills Intimidate +4, Stealth +6 (+10 in rocky areas); Racial +4 Stealth (+8 in rocky areas)
Languages Draconic
Gear hide armor, javelin
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Rage (Ex) A troglodyte cannibal can enter rage as a free action, and can rage for seven rounds per day.
While in rage, the troglodyte cannibal gains a +4 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. While in a rage, the troglodyte may not use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride), or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A troglodyte cannibal can end its rage as a free action and is fatigued after a rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A troglodyte cannibal cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted. If the troglodyte falls unconscious, its rage immediately ends, placing him or her in peril of death.

NOTES
While raging, the troglodyte cannibal’s statistics are modified as follows (extra hp disappear at the end of a rage):
AC 19, flat-footed 18, touch 9; hp 30
Fort +11, Will +3
Melee 2 claws +8 (1d4+5) and bite +7 (1d4+5)
Ranged javelin +3 (1d6+5)
Str 20, Con 20; CMB +7; CMD 18

And here are the stats for the CR 1 young troglodyte cannibal.

Young Troglodyte Cannibal:
YOUNG TROGLODYTE CANNIBAL CR 1
XP 600; male or female troglodyte barbarian 1
CE Small humanoid (reptilian)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 90 ft., Perception +1
Aura stench (30 ft., DC 12, 10 rounds)
DEFENSE
AC 22, ff 19, t 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, +4 natural, +1 size)
hp 18 (1d12+2d8+3)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +1
Immune troglodyte stench
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., (40 ft. without armor)
Melee 2 claws +5 (1d3+1) and bite +4 (1d3+1)
Ranged javelin +6 (1d4+1)
Special Attacks rage (5 rounds)
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (claws)
Skills Intimidate +4, Stealth +12 (+16 in rocky areas); Racial +4 Stealth (+8 in rocky areas)
Languages Draconic
Gear hide armor, javelin
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Rage (Ex) A troglodyte cannibal can enter rage as a free action, and can rage for seven rounds per day.
While in rage, the troglodyte cannibal gains a +4 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. While in a rage, the troglodyte may not use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride), or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A troglodyte cannibal can end its rage as a free action and is fatigued after a rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A troglodyte cannibal cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted. If the troglodyte falls unconscious, its rage immediately ends, placing him or her in peril of death.

NOTES
While raging, the young troglodyte cannibal’s statistics are modified as follows (extra hp disappear at the end of a rage):
AC 20, flat-footed 17, touch 12; hp 24
Fort +9, Will +3
Melee 2 claws +7 (1d3+3) and bite +6 (1d3+3)
Ranged javelin +6 (1d4+3)
Str 16, Con 16; CMB +4; CMD 17

With that done, I compare these guys CRs to some same-CR baddies from the Bestiary... and boy do they look off.

To compare the trog to the sahuagin (both are CR 2, we will assume both are using rage / blood frenzy):

Troglodyte has more hp.
Troglodyte's AC is four higher.
Troglodyte has better saves (total).
Troglodyte has better to hit and the same damage.
Troglodyte has better CMB and CMD.
Troglodyte gets stench; sahuagin gets light blindness.

Now to compare the young trog to the lizardfolk (both are CR 1, we will assume the young troglodyte is raging):

Troglodyte has more than two times the hp.
Troglodyte's AC is three higher.
Troglodyte's total saving throws are eleven (!) points higher.
Troglodyte has better to hit, and better (or virtually the same) damage.
Troglodyte has better CMB and CMD.
Troglodyte gets stench; lizardfolk gets hold breath.

Some huge gaps there... and the trogs are even throwing away a feat apiece on Great Fortitude. So did I miss something when adding class levels, per the rules in the Bestiary? Is my math just wrong? And, most importantly, should I change their CRs, ad-hoc?

Oh, and mind you, this is not in any way a criticism of the Pathfinder ruleset. Thoughts and help appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Your HP math is off, to start with. Only PCs get full hp from class at level 1. NPCs/monsters get average, so in case of Trog Barb it's:

1d12(6,5)+2d8(9)+3 = 22


NPCs don't get a maxed HD for a class level? I did not know that.

Fixed. That leaves the trog with 24 (30 raging) hp and the youngling with 18 (24 raging) hp. That still leaves both trogs superior in virtually every way to their equivalent-CR counterparts.


The CR adjustment rules are about as accurate as they can be. Now, the monster creation chart, that has become my bible when making NPC's. I find the numbers on that chart to be incredibly accurate towards what a party can handle. I also pretty much ignore the CR advancement rules and just adjust an advanced monster to fit the chart. Trust me, it works.


I appreciate the idea, but I'm not that kind of DM. :P

"If the player's can't do it, neither can I" is sort of my rule (though obviously, there are exceptions). We play a very by-the-book game, though, so I'm not willing to just make up whatever stats I feel that I want.

This isn't fourth edition, after all. :P

Seriously, though, is there anything that I am missing?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

The trog's stats seem to have inflated a bit from the point when you started to your end point. * See edit

Bestiary: Str 12, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 11

Trog Barb1: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 11

did you make these guys off an elite array or point buy the stats?

Using base stats a Trog barbarian 1 would have something like this:

TROGLODYTE CANNIBAL CR 2
XP 600; male or female troglodyte barbarian 1
CE Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Init -1; Senses darkvision 90 ft., Perception +1
Aura stench (30 ft., DC 14, 10 rounds)
DEFENSE
AC 19, ff 19, t 10 (+4 armor, -1 Dex, +6 natural)
hp 20 (1d12+2d8+4)
Fort +8, Ref -1, Will +0
Immune troglodyte stench
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., (40 ft. without armor)
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d4+1) and bite +3 (1d4+1)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+1)
Special Attacks rage (7 rounds)
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +3; CMD 12
Feats Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (claws)
Skills Intimidate +4, Stealth +6 (+10 in rocky areas); Racial +4 Stealth (+8 in rocky areas)
Languages Draconic
Gear hide armor, javelin

Raging you would add 2 to attacks, damage, and will saves and subtract 2 from AC and add 4 HP and you're done, looks alot closer to the CR 2 stats IMO.

EDIT: Ahh, didnt read the rules you were going buy closely enough, you're adding stats for the class levels, that's where the imbalance is coming from. I only ever add stats to guys I'm gonna name or be important to the story, otherwise they end up being somewhat off kilter.


Rake wrote:

I appreciate the idea, but I'm not that kind of DM. :P

"If the player's can't do it, neither can I" is sort of my rule (though obviously, there are exceptions). We play a very by-the-book game, though, so I'm not willing to just make up whatever stats I feel that I want.

This isn't fourth edition, after all. :P

Seriously, though, is there anything that I am missing?

Well the problem is addign a single level leads to some frontloaded benefits for creatures, just the elite scores (+1st HD full) might be worth +1 CR already and it was in 3.5, adding a class level to it just makes it worse.

I think you will find taking the standard trog adding a barbarian level but not making it elite will be closer to what is fair, though possibly a little short. Remember PRPG does not hold these up as infalible rules, they are just a guideline to help you make appropriate CR encounters, if it doesnt fit adjust it.

For my own campaigns I always add +1 CR for elite and 3/4 for class levels that fit the monsters role and 1/2 for class levels that don't fit, using these guidelines I try to create something that seems a fair match. In this case not using elite scores and probably adding two +2 modifiers will be just about right for me.


It's not an elite array; I just followed instructions.

Step two says that when you add class levels, you modify the NPC's stats as follows: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2. The advancement system specifically says that these modifiers are not meant to apply to creatures who gain NPC class levels (which I take to mean that they definately are meant to apply to monsters who gain PC class levels).


Rake wrote:

It's not an elite array; I just followed instructions.

Step two says that when you add class levels, you modify the NPC's stats as follows: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2. The advancement system specifically says that these modifiers are not meant to apply to creatures who gain NPC class levels (which I take to mean that they definately are meant to apply to monsters who gain PC class levels).

it used to be called Elite Array, the term doesn't exist in PF.

The point I was trying to make is that the CR system isn't perfect. I certainly don't advocate making up stats. I'm just stating that the best thing to do is make your creatures and compare them to the monster creation chart, then adjust CR to match up or reapply templates/class levels to taste.

It's an art, not a science.


I hate to consider monkeying with CRs, but I'd be more inclined to do that than to just alter or mess with the advancement rules.

What CR would you say these guys are?


Rake wrote:

I appreciate the idea, but I'm not that kind of DM. :P

"If the player's can't do it, neither can I" is sort of my rule (though obviously, there are exceptions). We play a very by-the-book game, though, so I'm not willing to just make up whatever stats I feel that I want.

This isn't fourth edition, after all. :P

Seriously, though, is there anything that I am missing?

Then don't use that chart to make your monster, but use it to find out the CR your monster should be at.

In other words, build the monster according to the rules, and then use that chart to find out his new CR. If the CR is too far off from what you wanted, then build it a different way.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Rake wrote:

I hate to consider monkeying with CRs, but I'd be more inclined to do that than to just alter or mess with the advancement rules.

What CR would you say these guys are?

Hexcaliber wrote:
It's an art, not a science.

Do whatever you need to get the results you need or want, as the DM you have license to play with them however you need as long as your players are having fun and you're not abusing the rules.

I'd say the Trog Barbarian 2 is closer to CR 3 and the younger is CR 2, but that's just eyeballing it (effectively what CR is anyhow). This is mainly due to the AC's being in the 20's and the relatively high damage output.


Would this help at all?


Rake wrote:


Seriously, though, is there anything that I am missing?

Yes, though you've started doing it already.

That is take a look at your results and compare them.

As you're seeing the number for the CR is off, so you should adjust them using common sense. It's the part of critter advancement that most ignore (willfully or not) so you should be applauded for doing it on your own.

Rather than give them all PC class levels, might I suggest a template that would give them the rage ability perhaps? If you aren't bumping up all of their stats and giving them extra HD then it wouldn't be so bad.

-James


One small problem: Where do the kiddies get their second feat from? They only have 2 HD/Levels? Not that it's weapon focus that's messing you up here...

I think the comparing them is exactly what you need to do. (And I'd argue that, hide armour notwithstanding, the little guys are pretty darned close to CR2 Wolverines, if you compare...)

The problems here come from the addition of the PC-levels template which makes the creatures elite being free - when it's almost as powerful as the advanced template which is CR+1.... Really, it should be CR +0.5 or something all its own (but we're avoiding half-level CRs, now, so...)

The extra power coming from the bonus attributes would be watered down totally if you were going up 2 or 3 levels, but at first level, it's a big boon... plus, you're taking what was already a strong humanoid race and giving it a level of Barbarian (with its d12, almost worth 2 Humanoid d8s all its own).

So, I'd say, really, you're looking at a CR2 youngling and CR3 big guy -so your choice is either to use fewer of them, or weaken them a little. :)

Grand Lodge

I find it easier to just use Monster Creation rules and ignore the advancement rules.

I know the CR I want and the role I want, so I just make a new monster to fit, based off the old one.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Rake wrote:

I hate to consider monkeying with CRs, but I'd be more inclined to do that than to just alter or mess with the advancement rules.

What CR would you say these guys are?

As a GM, it's basically your job to monkey with CRs. The CR system is, I believe, more accurate and robust than ever before in Pathfinder, but it's certainly not perfect.

According to the rules, a 10th level human fighter is CR 9, and a 10th level human commoner is CR 8. Obviously, the fighter is going to be a LOT more tough than the commoner—a lot more tough than 1 point of CR should suggest.

The ENTIRETY of the bestiary appendices that talk about building and advancing and adjusting monsters amount to what is basically nothing more than advice. When you finish creating any sort of NPC or monster, your last step SHOULD be to compare those final results to Table 1–1 to determine the best CR.

Because in Pathfinder, what CR means as far as monsters are concerned is an expected average in the categories of hit points, AC, attack rolls, average damage, Ability DCs and saves. If a creature's CR doesn't fall in line with these expected averages (having one category be significantly above average is usually okay, since that just means the monster is particularly good at something, and usually that's offset by the fact that the PCs are as well, and often outnumber the monsters), then the CR system won't work for handing out XP or balancing encounters.

I REPEAT: The advancement rules and all of that are tools to help in the actual creation of monsters. But once you're done using the advancement rules, you're not done. You need to fine tune by hand, adjusting things so that they settle down in line with a CR from Table 1–1. That's not breaking the rules—that's merely building monsters and NPCs in the same way we do at Paizo (although sometimes some of us don't follow this philosophy as closely as we probably should). It's the expected norm.

Now, looking at your first troglodyte stat block, it's WAY over on the AC and damage and good save category, and a little over on the attack roll, but pretty spot-on for hp and bad saves and save DCs. At AC 21, it should be a CR 8 foe, and at 19 damage or so a round on average, it should be CR 5.

The troglodyte is an interesting case for a base creature because it's got two things that really help it over a human—an exceptionally high natural armor bonus, and three attacks. When you combine those with something like a barbarian, the results are MUCH better than normal.

Furthermore, adding class levels to low HD monsters ALWAYS has a more dramatic effect than adding class levels to high HD monsters. When you combine that with an already pretty extreme monster like a troglodyte, the results can be pretty crazy.

So yeah, you can either ditch the trog's hide armor and use Strength as his dump stat to get him back closer to what a CR 2 expects, or you can simply numbercrunch/refine the stats to be as tough as you can and then bump him up to CR 3. The stats as you present feel like a CR 3 monster to me, honestly; he'll have low hp, but that balances with his high AC. And while his damage is high, that's fine too—monsters should be good at something.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Also, you have to consider that the 2 creatures you compared it to are both aquatic and much deadlier in water. The advanced trogs still are probably a higher CR, but I'd compare them more to monsters that don't have a huge advantage in the water, that doesn't necessarily show in their combat stats.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
Rake wrote:

I hate to consider monkeying with CRs, but I'd be more inclined to do that than to just alter or mess with the advancement rules.

What CR would you say these guys are?

As a GM, it's basically your job to monkey with CRs. The CR system is, I believe, more accurate and robust than ever before in Pathfinder, but it's certainly not perfect.

According to the rules, a 10th level human fighter is CR 9, and a 10th level human commoner is CR 8. Obviously, the fighter is going to be a LOT more tough than the commoner—a lot more tough than 1 point of CR should suggest.

I love this point here... I've always calculated my NPC's as [core class CR -1] and [NPC class CR -2]. Unfortunately, this logic I believe might have lead to some unexpected results. This basically means, if I take a CR 1/3 creature like a goblin and give him 2 levels of warrior...his CR doesn't change? But if i give him one level of fighter...again his CR "technically" doesn't change!

So a level 1 warrior goblin is a CR 1/3
and a level 1 fighter goblin is also a CR 1/3

I find it an interesting numbers conundrum. If this logic (as presented in the Bestiary) doesn't hold 100%, then I need to go back and edit my NPCs and the CRs.

So...if i'm right, then a level 3 warrior human is a CR 1. An a level 3 fighter human is a CR 2. So then, what would an Ogre Barbarian 3 be, CR 5?


Rake wrote:

I hate to consider monkeying with CRs...

What CR would you say these guys are?

Hexcaliber said it right when he said creature creation/advancement is an art not a science. He also rightly pointed out that Pathfinder provided an excellent resource (Monster Creation Chart) in adjudicating some of the variance in the system. (Which, as others have pointed out, is much larger with lower CRs--not to mention more deadly as lower CRs leave less leeway for CRs that are a ways off.)

I have crunched some numbers for you as an example:
Since your Trog can basically rage the entire combat(7 rounds) I have used his raging stats for this...obviously a trog who never rages will be less powerful.
Your Barbarian Trog:
AC 19 = CR 6
HP 30 = CR 3
Avg Damage 21 = CR 5-6
toHit 8/7 = CR 4-5
saves 11/1/3 = CR 4ish
OVERALL AVG* CR 4.4 (22/5)
*(OVERALL AVG CR of rated items using lowest of all estimates)

Your raging barbarian Trog is easily a CR4 creature (even not raging he is close to a 4 but you could go light and call your non-raging barbarian Trog a CR 3).

By way of comparison I have crunched the numbers on a CR 5 Manticore
AC 17 = CR 4
HP 57 = CR 5
Avg Damage 26 = CR 7
toHit 10/10 = CR 5-6
saves 9/7/3 = CR 6
OVERALL AVG* CR 5.4 (27/5)
*(OVERALL AVG CR of rated items using lowest of all estimates)

Knowing all this it makes it much easier to adjust a creature's CR fairly without really monkeying with the system. The system IS DM judgment based. There are simply too many factors to write rules to properly adjudicate CR without making a rulebook dedicated solely to that. If even the "simple" rules were simple I would never have developed the Monster Advancer to save myself hundreds of hours of prep time. (which will work with Pathfinder rules soon enough)


Hm, alright... I think I'll try to rearrange the scores less optimally (and maybe ditch or downgrade the armor) to produce a CR 1 monster out of the trog.

Thanks for your time, James.

Thanks for all your help, everyone.


DragonBringerX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Rake wrote:

I hate to consider monkeying with CRs, but I'd be more inclined to do that than to just alter or mess with the advancement rules.

What CR would you say these guys are?

As a GM, it's basically your job to monkey with CRs. The CR system is, I believe, more accurate and robust than ever before in Pathfinder, but it's certainly not perfect.

According to the rules, a 10th level human fighter is CR 9, and a 10th level human commoner is CR 8. Obviously, the fighter is going to be a LOT more tough than the commoner—a lot more tough than 1 point of CR should suggest.

I love this point here... I've always calculated my NPC's as [core class CR -1] and [NPC class CR -2]. Unfortunately, this logic I believe might have lead to some unexpected results. This basically means, if I take a CR 1/3 creature like a goblin and give him 2 levels of warrior...his CR doesn't change? But if i give him one level of fighter...again his CR "technically" doesn't change!

So a level 1 warrior goblin is a CR 1/3
and a level 1 fighter goblin is also a CR 1/3

I find it an interesting numbers conundrum. If this logic (as presented in the Bestiary) doesn't hold 100%, then I need to go back and edit my NPCs and the CRs.

So...if i'm right, then a level 3 warrior human is a CR 1. An a level 3 fighter human is a CR 2. So then, what would an Ogre Barbarian 3 be, CR 5?

Ogre = CR 3, 'key' class levels for a combat role creature like the ogre include barbarian so you would add +1 CR for every barbarian level for a total CR 6. non-key levels (like sorcerer) would add 1/2 CR for every level up to a number of levels equal to it's base CR.

Creatures playable from level 1 up without adjustments, like a goblin would be treated the same as any other PC race.


DragonBringerX wrote:

I love this point here... I've always calculated my NPC's as [core class CR -1] and [NPC class CR -2]. Unfortunately, this logic I believe might have lead to some unexpected results. This basically means, if I take a CR 1/3 creature like a goblin and give him 2 levels of warrior...his CR doesn't change? But if i give him one level of fighter...again his CR "technically" doesn't change!

So a level 1 warrior goblin is a CR 1/3
and a level 1 fighter goblin is also a CR 1/3

Mmm... wouldn't a Level 1 fighter goblin be CR 1/2? CR "1 - 1" = 1/2. CR "1 - 2" = 1/3. [That's Level 1 - 1 for PC class adjust, or -2 for NPC class adjust.]

Goblins same as humans really. Kobolds are a nudge down though.


Just curious, but since you're building this monster somewhat out of thin air, based on a premise that their barbarous cannibalistic nature has resulted in allowing them to rage, why bother with all the shenanigans?

I mean, adding a level of barbarian, changing all those ability scores and feats, then adding the young template to tone them down a bit? Too many hoops to jump through.

This is your game, so "man-up". Or "GM-up" as it were.

Just take your baseline troggy and throw Rage onto him. Free of charge, no classes or templates required. If badgers can do it, so can cannibal troggies. Yes, this ought to raise his CR a little, but it certainly won't give him anything remotely like a CR 8 monster.

There is no rule that says you must stick to some red-tape rule system to advance your monster. In fact, James Jacobs just said on this thread that those are merely guidelines, there to help you achieve some results. Which by inference means there's a whole world of other results that aren't germaine to the limited guidelines.

Results like base troggers with an innate ability to Rage a few rounds each day.


DM_Blake wrote:
Just take your baseline troggy and throw Rage onto him. Free of charge, no classes or templates required.

+1, at a minimum.

I'd just give the trog the ability to rage like a 2nd-level barbarian, and I would not adjust the monster's CR as a result.


Spes Magna Mark wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Just take your baseline troggy and throw Rage onto him. Free of charge, no classes or templates required.

+1, at a minimum.

I'd just give the trog the ability to rage like a 2nd-level barbarian, and I would not adjust the monster's CR as a result.

seems fair enough, they will be a bit harder than normal trogs, but you can just give some bonus exp / extra loot to compensate. It isn't exact science anyway.


DM_Blake wrote:
Just take your baseline troggy and throw Rage onto him.

This is an excellent idea...and your best chance at keeping the low CR you want. Kudos to you, DM Blake for thinking outside the box.


DM_Blake wrote:
Just take your baseline troggy and throw Rage onto him. Free of charge, no classes or templates required. If badgers can do it, so can cannibal troggies. Yes, this ought to raise his CR a little, but it certainly won't give him anything remotely like a CR 8 monster.

I agree with this, though based on the flavour, make it less controlled than barbarian rage. Something like:

Blood Frenzy (Ex) A cannibal who smells or sees the blood of a humanoid enters into a blood frenzy and flies into a rage on its next turn. While frenzied, the cannibal will continue to attack the humanoid that triggered the frenzy until it has killed it, at which point it will shift its target to the nearest wounded creature. In cases when two wounded creatures are equally distance, the cannibal will attack the target which is most bloodied. If this cannot be determined easily, then select from the possible targets at random. A frenzied cannibal must make a successful Will save (DC 15) to avoid selecting a wounded companion at its next target. While raging, it gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to AC. Once all targets are slain, the cannibal's rage ends and it begins to feed. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.

So, here, the tactical weaknesses help balance out the strength of the rage - they can't start raged, they'll lock onto each other, etc.. So you don't need to do much to the overall power level of your base trogs. Maybe kick up the xp count a little. But that's me.

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