Pounce during Surprise Round


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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Thus is my question! Can you pounce during a surprise round? As a surprise round allows only standard actions you must make a charge at your normal move speed. The pounce ability very clearly says you may make a full attack at the end of a charge. It doesn't say anything about what happens if you're limited to standard actions. So could a leopard leap out of stealth land two claw attacks and a rake all before initiative is rolled?

This makes perfect sense to me, just testing the waters to see what others think. There happens to be a creature with double digit attacks and pounce coming up soon and this will be very relevant.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Thus is my question! Can you pounce during a surprise round? As a surprise round allows only standard actions you must make a charge at your normal move speed. The pounce ability very clearly says you may make a full attack at the end of a charge. It doesn't anything about what happens if you're limited to standard actions. So could a leopard leap out of stealth land two claw attacks and a rake all before initiative is rolled?

That is correct. A Partial Charge is still a Charge and Pounce works on any Charge.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Thus is my question! Can you pounce during a surprise round? As a surprise round allows only standard actions you must make a charge at your normal move speed. The pounce ability very clearly says you may make a full attack at the end of a charge. It doesn't anything about what happens if you're limited to standard actions. So could a leopard leap out of stealth land two claw attacks and a rake all before initiative is rolled?
That is correct. A Partial Charge is still a Charge and Pounce works on any Charge.

Both wrong, you cannot charge in a surprise round, you are limited to a standard action. Charging requires a full round action to execute. There is no such thing as a partial charge.

However you can ambush the party as you stated. This charge triggers the surprise round, it does not take place in it. Anyone who could detect the creature would be able to act in the ensuing surprise round unless all were aware in which case the surprise is negated.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Someone has not read about the Pathfinder partial charge yet.

Charge:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Movement During Charge


JimmyNids wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Thus is my question! Can you pounce during a surprise round? As a surprise round allows only standard actions you must make a charge at your normal move speed. The pounce ability very clearly says you may make a full attack at the end of a charge. It doesn't anything about what happens if you're limited to standard actions. So could a leopard leap out of stealth land two claw attacks and a rake all before initiative is rolled?
That is correct. A Partial Charge is still a Charge and Pounce works on any Charge.

Both wrong, you cannot charge in a surprise round, you are limited to a standard action. Charging requires a full round action to execute. There is no such thing as a partial charge.

However you can ambush the party as you stated. This charge triggers the surprise round, it does not take place in it. Anyone who could detect the creature would be able to act in the ensuing surprise round unless all were aware in which case the surprise is negated.

From the table in the PRD

Charge4

4 May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

We have just revolutionized his surprise rounds.

Sovereign Court

+1 for Scipion del Ferro. FYI Partial charge has been around longer than PF JimmyNids
/just sayin


Regarding Pounce on partial charge, the rules actually say something. Pounce allows you to make more than one attack during a charge. Nothing is written in Pounce description regarding partial charges.
In the full-attack section (which I'm too lazy to quote), it's written that attacking more than once requires the full-attack action (whether it's used for a charge -with Pounce- or the plain iterative full-attack).
Therefore, I'd play partial charges with only one attack (although some animals can still trip or grab on a successful bite).


anyone got a link to the PSRD, i gotta read this thing.


OK, overcoming my laziness link by link... here is the relevant section (Full Attack), of which it is the first sentence I was talking about. And here is the description of Pounce, too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
JimmyNids wrote:
anyone got a link to the PSRD, i gotta read this thing.

Since you don't trust my copy and paste :)


I meant I need to read the entire PSRD so I don't go around quoting wrong information anymore, wasn't attacking you wraith


JimmyNids wrote:
I meant I need to read the entire PSRD so I don't go around quoting wrong information anymore, wasn't attacking you wraith

I was just messing with ya. That is why the :) was there.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Thus is my question! Can you pounce during a surprise round? As a surprise round allows only standard actions you must make a charge at your normal move speed. The pounce ability very clearly says you may make a full attack at the end of a charge. It doesn't say anything about what happens if you're limited to standard actions. So could a leopard leap out of stealth land two claw attacks and a rake all before initiative is rolled?

A few things here. In pathfinder initiative is rolled before the surprise round by all combatants not just those that are aware (this is a change from 3.5).

Second it has always been my (minority) opinion that pounce allows you to make a full attack action after the charge move, but that being limited to a standard action would prohibit multiple attacks. Most people I've encountered tend to believe that it would allow the full attack action while being limited to a standard action.

-James


I don't think pounce was intended to work on a standard action even if the rules somewhat support it. I guess its another question to submit to the FAQ.


[threadjack]
One question I`ve always had but never resolved sufficiently (in a RAW/RAI sense) is whether Partial Charge should be compatable with Readied Actions (which has to be a Standard Action). Assuming you don`t use your Move Action at all, I don`t see how doing a Partial Charge as a Readied Action is much different than doing a Partial Charge as the Standard Action during Surprise Round...?

If allowable, this basically has the effect of making melee more tactically effective (even though it`s assuming a single, non-Vital Strike Charge attack).
[/threadjack]

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I don't have reference handyman but vaguely remember a 3.5 rule that a partial charge was only for people (and zombies) with their actions restricted. I allow my players to ready partial charges though, intercepting enemies charging the wizard usually.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

My 6th level Scout got pounced by a dire tiger in a surprise round. The full attack took him from full to -8. Good thing the cleric was on hand. It was very nasty.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quandary wrote:

[threadjack]

One question I`ve always had but never resolved sufficiently (in a RAW/RAI sense) is whether Partial Charge should be compatable with Readied Actions (which has to be a Standard Action). Assuming you don`t use your Move Action at all, I don`t see how doing a Partial Charge as a Readied Action is much different than doing a Partial Charge as the Standard Action during Surprise Round...?

If allowable, this basically has the effect of making melee more tactically effective (even though it`s assuming a single, non-Vital Strike Charge attack).
[/threadjack]

If you are going to allow readying charges, then you need to be okay with allowing charging as a standard action period, which I think is unbalanced. Basically it allows people to take a move action and then ready a charge, which they can just wait 1 tick and unleash. At that point they might as well just be able to charge as a standard action.

For that reason I don't allow it.


MaxAstro wrote:


If you are going to allow readying charges, then you need to be okay with allowing charging as a standard action period, which I think is unbalanced. Basically it allows people to take a move action and then ready a charge, which they can just wait 1 tick and unleash. At that point they might as well just be able to charge as a standard action.

For that reason I don't allow it.

I think this is a bit of a strawman. You add a bit to this that the original proposer did not and then say for that reason you don't like it.

There is nothing wrong with allowing someone to ready a charge if they haven't moved yet during their turn, just like you could allow someone to ready a 5'step and attack if they hadn't moved during their turn.

If the PC in question were slowed or staggered then they could ready a charge, so I don't see any reason to disallow someone MORE able to do so!

-James


MaxAstro wrote:
If you are going to allow readying charges, then you need to be okay with allowing charging as a standard action period, which I think is unbalanced. Basically it allows people to take a move action and then ready a charge, which they can just wait 1 tick and unleash. At that point they might as well just be able to charge as a standard action.

Huh. I specifically mentioned it in the context of not using the Move Action, in other words your actions are identical to a Surprise Round, and Ready is itself restricting your actions (on your now updated Init to which your turn/action is readid/delayed).

I get what you`re saying though, if it was generally possible to do a Partial Charge in any situation with just a Standard Action, the straight line restriction of Charge can basically be changed to a straight line restricion for the latter half of the movement (or, the part after your first Move Action) which feels silly.

I`m only interested in the situation of Readied Action where you didn`t take a Move Action on your turn, since it seems the same to me as a Surprise Round since you are restricted to a Standard Action on what is now your new Init.

james maissen wrote:
just like you could allow someone to ready a 5'step and attack if they hadn't moved during their turn.
That`s a great comparison!
james maissen wrote:
If the PC in question were slowed or staggered then they could ready a charge, so I don't see any reason to disallow someone MORE able to do so!

And that`s even better! :-)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Good point, I should have said that I only allow a readied partial charge if the PC hasn't moved. Though, since the partial charge includes a move of up to his normal move distance, he can't do it if he's already moved anyway. If you know what I mean :-)

For a single +2 to hit, he doesn't take his action asap, and possibly doesn't even get one. If, say, the enemy sees him scraping up dust like a bull and decides to hang back and just shoot.

And a pounce on a surprise is the best way to make animals dangerous that I know :-) Especially hunters like tigers, panthers etc.

Remeber that Calvin & Hobbes frame where Hobbes is mid-attack and mentions that 5 of his 6 ends are pointy?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

A couple points here. (Jimmy I had the link in my first quote btw)

A partial charge is not actually called a partial charge. The description of it never calls it that. It is only referred to as a charge. Here is the exact wording.

Quote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Pouncing does not mention the need for a full-round action.

Quote:
Pounce gives you a full-attack at the end of your charge.

While a normal full-attack requires a full-round action. Pounce very specifically says you may take one at the end of your charge. It does not mention how you made the charge or if you moved your full speed.

--------------------------------------------------

Acting during a surprise round restricts you to either a standard action or a move action.

Quote:
In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.

Same wording as the staggered.

Quote:
A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions).

So a "partial" charge is certainly allowed in a surprise round.

--------------------------------------------------

Regarding Reading an Action to perform a "partial" charge. I would only allow this if the person in question was limited to standard actions. AKA slowed or a zombie. Since that's the case there would be no way for them to move then ready the charge.


Basically I think what Scipion del Ferro said is 100% correct.

The only thing I would disagree with is the readying a charge, which is something I would say you could never do. You can't normally ready even a partial charge, so why should being staggered or slowed allow you to do MORE then someone with full actions?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fergie wrote:

Basically I think what Scipion del Ferro said is 100% correct.

The only thing I would disagree with is the readying a charge, which is something I would say you could never do. You can't normally ready even a partial charge, so why should being staggered or slowed allow you to do MORE then someone with full actions?

This I agree with. Partial charges are okay, as is using them with pounce. Readying an action to charge, however, is not.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Fergie wrote:
The only thing I would disagree with is the readying a charge, which is something I would say you could never do. You can't normally ready even a partial charge, so why should being staggered or slowed allow you to do MORE then someone with full actions?

Yeah I agree that's kind of odd, but Ready doesn't actually say you can't charge. Just that you're limited to a standard, move, swift, or free action.

I hardly ever use the Ready action so I'm not super familiar with it myself. If it came down to it I would allow a normal person to Ready a "partial" charge as well since it does limit you specifically to standard, move, swift, or free actions.

I think the reason for the "partial" charge being limited to when you may only make a standard or move action is mainly there to prevent someone from moving before a charge. Then saying, "Oh I still have a standard action, I'll just charge for my move speed again!"

Liberty's Edge

Fergie wrote:

Basically I think what Scipion del Ferro said is 100% correct.

The only thing I would disagree with is the readying a charge, which is something I would say you could never do. You can't normally ready even a partial charge, so why should being staggered or slowed allow you to do MORE then someone with full actions?

Because pounce is a specific special ability. Visualize it like this, as a cat when you charge and pounce on something, you bite and claw at the enemy at the same time, not taking 3 separate actions. Yes the attacks are rolled separate but literally jumping on an enemy affords you 2 claws digging in and biting them simultaneously.

This is different than taking 2 separate swipes and then a bite each in its own meter.


Themetricsystem wrote:


Because pounce is a specific special ability. Visualize it like this, as a cat when you charge and pounce on something, you bite and claw at the enemy at the same time, not taking 3 separate actions. Yes the attacks are rolled separate but literally jumping on an enemy affords you 2 claws digging in and biting them simultaneously.
This is different than taking 2 separate swipes and then a bite each in its own meter.

I'm not saying that you can't use Pounce and Charge together, that seems pretty clearly allowed. I'm simply saying you can't ready a charge. Ever. You clearly can't do it normally, so why would being staggered allow you MORE options then normal or even hasted?

Scarab Sages

The partial charge thing says you can make one when limited to a single standard action. If you ready, are you not limited to a single standard or move action? Ignoring the ready, if you take a move action, then are you not limited to a single standard action for the rest of your turn?

I don't think the partial charge was meant to be as limited as you guys think it should be.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Karui Kage wrote:

The partial charge thing says you can make one when limited to a single standard action. If you ready, are you not limited to a single standard or move action? Ignoring the ready, if you take a move action, then are you not limited to a single standard action for the rest of your turn?

I don't think the partial charge was meant to be as limited as you guys think it should be.

Except charging says you may do it "partially" ONLY when you can just take a standard action. Not when you're only left with a standard action like after you had moved already.

Quote:
You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Scarab Sages

And again, if you Ready an action, are you then not restricted to taking only a standard action for it?

You can word it any number of ways. I am like the above, I don't think charge should become easier to access just because you're staggered or a zombie. It makes more sense to just allow anyone to partial charge as a standard action whenever, and really, you can word the rule just that way.

Frankly, by RAW, I agree with you. It does read more to favor those who only have a standard action for their whole turn. I still recommend allowing it to everyone as a whole, for the reasons above. Having an action while you're staggered but not while you're fit and healthy makes little sense.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Karui Kage wrote:

And again, if you Ready an action, are you then not restricted to taking only a standard action for it?

You can word it any number of ways. I am like the above, I don't think charge should become easier to access just because you're staggered or a zombie. It makes more sense to just allow anyone to partial charge as a standard action whenever, and really, you can word the rule just that way.

Frankly, by RAW, I agree with you. It does read more to favor those who only have a standard action for their whole turn. I still recommend allowing it to everyone as a whole, for the reasons above. Having an action while you're staggered but not while you're fit and healthy makes little sense.

That's what I was saying. Since Ready restricts you to just a standard action for your turn you may be able to do a partial charge.

I don't agree in any way that you could do a move action and follow it up with a partial charge.

Liberty's Edge

If it says you must be restricted to a single standard action on your turn then that's that. If your turn has more than a standard action available then you can't partial charge (regardless of ready, since that doesn't change what you have on your turn). What you COULD do is move up to your move speed then standard action attack (identical to partial charge, sans the +2 to-hit and -2AC, which you could probably house rule is an option in that scenario). If you do it this way then the staggered person MUST take the +2/-2 to move and attack, where the non-staggered has an option of careful approach.

Sovereign Court

No you cannot ready a partial charge.

Readying an Action is a Standard action of it's own. You are more than able to use your move action before you Ready to move, or draw a weapon, dig through your pack, etc. Using your Standard action to Ready does not limit your entire turn to merely a Standard or Move action. To be limited means involuntarily limited.

--Hard Vrock Cafe

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

There ya go. See I didn't think you could move before a Ready action.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Karui Kage wrote:

And again, if you Ready an action, are you then not restricted to taking only a standard action for it?

You can word it any number of ways. I am like the above, I don't think charge should become easier to access just because you're staggered or a zombie. It makes more sense to just allow anyone to partial charge as a standard action whenever, and really, you can word the rule just that way.

Frankly, by RAW, I agree with you. It does read more to favor those who only have a standard action for their whole turn. I still recommend allowing it to everyone as a whole, for the reasons above. Having an action while you're staggered but not while you're fit and healthy makes little sense.

You can move before you prepare a....

Darn! Ninja'd!


StabbittyDoom wrote:
If it says you must be restricted to a single standard action on your turn then that's that. If your turn has more than a standard action available then you can't partial charge (regardless of ready, since that doesn't change what you have on your turn).

So if you are incapacitated then you are MORE able?

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
If it says you must be restricted to a single standard action on your turn then that's that. If your turn has more than a standard action available then you can't partial charge (regardless of ready, since that doesn't change what you have on your turn).

So if you are incapacitated then you are MORE able?

-James

I specifically mentioned that a person could still walk up to them and hit them as a full-round. They can ALSO charge (for up to twice their move) for the normal benefits and penalties. A staggered person can ONLY charge, and not as far as one who isn't. (this all assumes that the opponent is > 5ft away, of course)

As far as readying a charge, I'd say something that includes two distinct actions (attack and move) is too much to do as a prepared action. As a delayed action, sure, but not as a readied. Since charge is normally a full-round (which can't be readied) and the partial charge is a special case of that full-round action, it's perfectly reasonable to disallow readying the action.
The difference between readied and delayed exists primarily in whether or not you can interrupt another's action with it.


StabbittyDoom wrote:


As far as readying a charge, I'd say something that includes two distinct actions (attack and move) is too much to do as a prepared action.

If a person were staggered or slowed then they certainly could ready a charge, right?

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:


As far as readying a charge, I'd say something that includes two distinct actions (attack and move) is too much to do as a prepared action.

If a person were staggered or slowed then they certainly could ready a charge, right?

-James

StabbittyDoom wrote:

As far as readying a charge, I'd say something that includes two distinct actions (attack and move) is too much to do as a prepared action. As a delayed action, sure, but not as a readied. Since charge is normally a full-round (which can't be readied) and the partial charge is a special case of that full-round action, it's perfectly reasonable to disallow readying the action.

The difference between readied and delayed exists primarily in whether or not you can interrupt another's action with it.


'Stabbydoom':

So, other than fluff, you have no reason why a slowed or staggered creature could not ready a standard action charge?

That's the issue here.

A staggered/slowed creature is limited to a standard action and thus can as a standard action charge.

A readied action is a standard action that allows you to perform a standard action, in this case a standard action charge.

I neither see anything wrong with this, nor do I see a reason to deny it to creatures that are neither staggered nor slowed as long as they have not moved during their turn.

-James

Liberty's Edge

I'd hardly consider charge being listed as "full-round action" as fluff. I'm saying that it would seem (by RAI) that the "partial charge" action exists primarily for surprise rounds so that the fighter doesn't always use theirs to say "I approach", NOT as a general purpose "it's standard action now" rule. Under this view, the charge action would be treated as full-round for the purpose of ALL other rules that base their applicability based on action type. Namely readied actions.
My main gripe with it is that no other action (to my knowledge) is two actions at once without being at least a full-round, and that the readied actions seemed to depend on the action being a single item. If you want to wait to perform more than one item, then you delay. The distinction lies in whether you interrupt the action you delayed/readied for.
Using the readied action to charge seems like exploitation of a rule for a purpose other than its intended one and is something that doesn't fly at my table.

TLDR version:
Readied: Single action item.
Delayed: Delay a whole turn; Multiple action items.
Partial charge is two actions called a single action to allow useful surprise round attacks by melee characters and should therefor not be "ready-able".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

So they can delay until the enemies turn and then charge, but can't ready an action to charge when the enemy acts?

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
So they can delay until the enemies turn and then charge, but can't ready an action to charge when the enemy acts?

Exactly. The difference being that a ready could have (depending on the wording of the trigger) interrupted the enemy's action, but the delay must occur after.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I think I follow you. The fighter could wait until the initiative count before the enemy's, but it would not interrupt an action, only possibly prevent the action if the enemy were going to move where the fighter ended up.

Sovereign Court

Yeah you also have to remember the Partial charger is limited a single standard or move action over the full 6 seconds of the round. A ready could feasibly be only half or 2/3rds that time. I don't think you should be able to mimic a full round action in half the time. Half the speed, no problem.

--A Vrockwork Orange

Liberty's Edge

I'd be on the side of saying pounce is not permitted in the surprise round. It is not clear RAW, but the concept of pounce is the ability to make your full movement and full attack. In the surprise round, you don't have full attacks available, so no pounce.

I believe this is an issue with something obscure and seldom used not caught in the game design. As of now, until someone official steps in, this could go either way and it is DM discretion. In the games I DM, it would be a no go.


Uhmm, if you can make multiple attacks while charging (using pounce) in a surprise round, you can also do multiple attacks if you are limited to 1 standard action per round due to some magical effect.. but only if you have room to charge. You could do multiple attacks and move but you couldn't do more than one attack if you are adjacent to an enemy, weird.
I don't think this was the idea behind that ability, but it just my opinion.

Scarab Sages

Ignoring the readying issue, I fully support the notion that a pounce can be done on the surprise round. For one, you are *definitely* limited to a single standard or move action in the surprise round, which would allow for the partial charge. Second, you get to pounce *whenever* you charge, partial or not.

Third, it just makes *sense* that a big cat should be able to surprise and pounce you! :) RAR OH GOD KITTY


Karui Kage wrote:

Ignoring the readying issue, I fully support the notion that a pounce can be done on the surprise round. For one, you are *definitely* limited to a single standard or move action in the surprise round, which would allow for the partial charge. Second, you get to pounce *whenever* you charge, partial or not.

Third, it just makes *sense* that a big cat should be able to surprise and pounce you! :) RAR OH GOD KITTY

Well still ignoring the ready issue..

If the cat were slowed or staggered, you still think it could partial charge to get a full attack?

I don't think that should be the case.

Pounce is normally giving extra attacks in the form of rakes, but I think that a standard action shouldn't support a full attack action.

Regardless if they intended it one way or the other, this is something that comes up often enough to have a FAQ directly address it beyond an off the cuff answer from a dev. One that would go into the proper depth and discuss readying as well as slowed/staggered/surprise rounds.

-James

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