Ooh. I've got something to do tonight, then. If anyone asks me what I'm doing, I'll say, "Being a huge nerd."Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
I converted the NPCs to Pathfinder before I ran it, since the PCs were too. The only thing that really changed much from that was
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So first we would have to agree on what standard is. I think Paizo's AP have some good battles. I have not tried any of their stand alone adventures yet.I don't think Napalm has to have optimized characters, but he expects them to be competent. Having an ambush where you cant use your abilities is not competent, but maybe the DM wanted you to run away. Considering what he used it should have been a TPK, which is why I think making you run was the goal.
Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
You know, that was the encounter I was thinking of converting...great minds and all I guess :) .
Next time I go to game store, I'll browse through the APs and single adventures to try to find one for level 9 and using PF system. You can just play all 4 characters if you don't wanna get the other players involved (love the dice option in this forum :) ). I will avoid those two APs...besides which kingmaker is pretty brutal for an AP anyways so I would have stayed away from that anyways and legacy of fire is 3.5. If not i'll just convert one of the rise of the runelord encounter as that AP seemed the most average in difficulty of all the paizo AP I have run/played through.Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
I'm game. Win or loose it sounds like fun. However, I don't think I'd be able to get the other players involved (I've made a point of not showing them this thread for obvious reasons).
If you ARE serious about that, please don't use anything from Kingmaker or Legacy of Fire if you don't mind--we are currently going through those modules.
Heh, this thread is lightning fast--in the time it took to post that you got two boss fight ideas. Mine is probably more difficult than wraithstrike's, if you want to choose the easier one. Then again, my PCs were medium-low on resources when they encountered that fight.
You know, that was the encounter I was thinking of converting...great minds and all I guess :) .
So first we would have to agree on what standard is. I think Paizo's AP have some good battles. I have not tried any of their stand alone adventures yet.I don't think Napalm has to have optimized characters, but he expects them to be competent. Having an ambush where you cant use your abilities is not competent, but maybe the DM wanted you to run away. Considering what he used it should have been a TPK, which is why I think making you run was the goal.
Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
Heh, I really liked that boss encounter a lot. However, what I proposed was not standard because it had--
I agree. If you are playing in the game world then use game world tactics. Using real life tactics in the game would not work because if those monsters were real they would only need one hit to take you out of a fight meaning, but since that does not work in the game world they should keep hitting you until you die.But a monster in the game really would only need one hit to kill Hama. Seems real enough to me.
I am sure you knew I meant most characters, and not many monsters do 30+ points of damage on one hit at level 9
So first we would have to agree on what standard is. I think Paizo's AP have some good battles. I have not tried any of their stand alone adventures yet.I don't think Napalm has to have optimized characters, but he expects them to be competent. Having an ambush where you cant use your abilities is not competent, but maybe the DM wanted you to run away. Considering what he used it should have been a TPK, which is why I think making you run was the goal.
Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
If its level appropriate, but its played down it does not count. I really think the NPC's were overkill, and its a setup for something else.
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Wraith...ouch...that encounter is mean. Would expect nothing less from age of worm I guess, I hear that AP is terribly hard. Never ran or played it myself. Would love to someday.
Although I did make a 3.5 mindflayer wizard with an octopus familiar and used fist of stone a lot for some crazy grapple brain sucking action. The PC eventually stole the familiar away (one of the players also had the octopus familiar so he couldn't bring himself to kill the familiar) and then the grapple happy PC wizard pin the mind flayer for a CDG hehe.
You know, that was the encounter I was thinking of converting...great minds and all I guess :) .
So first we would have to agree on what standard is. I think Paizo's AP have some good battles. I have not tried any of their stand alone adventures yet.I don't think Napalm has to have optimized characters, but he expects them to be competent. Having an ambush where you cant use your abilities is not competent, but maybe the DM wanted you to run away. Considering what he used it should have been a TPK, which is why I think making you run was the goal.
Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
I actually had to hold back on this fight, but I made it close enough that only one player caught on that I was holding back.
Wraith...ouch...that encounter is mean. Would expect nothing less from age of worm I guess, I hear that AP is terribly hard. Never ran or played it myself. Would love to someday.
Although I did make a 3.5 mindflayer wizard with an octopus familiar and used fist of stone a lot for some crazy grapple brain sucking action. The PC eventually stole the familiar away (one of the players also had the octopus familiar so he couldn't bring himself to kill the familiar) and then the grapple happy PC wizard pin the mind flayer for a CDG hehe.
The dolgaunts I used were actually CR 5's. The mindflayer had a 30+CMD(grappling) so once he got a hold of you it was game over. The Erinyes was pretty nasty too as you can see if you looked at the stats. I started with sleet storm to basically blind the party. The bad guys were not affected by it.
Edit: link to the fight under my other board name
Edit2: It is ridiculously hard at some points.
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Heh, I really liked that boss encounter a lot. However, what I proposed was not standard because it had--[SPOILER]the two lamias, since they survived thus far in my campaign (and indeed, they escaped that one too). Barl is a chump with just his bodyguard, so I can't really suggest it without the lamias though.
Yeah the first time we ran it, one survived and it caused grief later...after that we made sure the lamias died when we met them everytime :) .
I actually had to hold back on this fight, but I made it close enough that only one player caught on that I was holding back.You know, that was the encounter I was thinking of converting...great minds and all I guess :) .
So first we would have to agree on what standard is. I think Paizo's AP have some good battles. I have not tried any of their stand alone adventures yet.I don't think Napalm has to have optimized characters, but he expects them to be competent. Having an ambush where you cant use your abilities is not competent, but maybe the DM wanted you to run away. Considering what he used it should have been a TPK, which is why I think making you run was the goal.
Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm curious, did your encounter have the two ladies? If not and it was just as written, I'd think it would actually be very easy unless the PCs were tired (my PCs were underleveled for the area, at mostly level 8).
I didn't hold back, but they pulled a ridiculous hail mary after the PC Wizard Dimension Doored away, and then came back to save the day. They were 1 roll away from a TPK like 5 times.
I just remembered. I am also in the middle of hosting Realm of the Fellnight Queen. If you want to surprise me, you may want to avoid that one.
I'm curious, did your encounter have the two ladies? If not and it was just as written, I'd think it would actually be very easy...I actually had to hold back on this fight, but I made it close enough that only one player caught on that I was holding back.You know, that was the encounter I was thinking of converting...great minds and all I guess :) .
So first we would have to agree on what standard is. I think Paizo's AP have some good battles. I have not tried any of their stand alone adventures yet.I don't think Napalm has to have optimized characters, but he expects them to be competent. Having an ambush where you cant use your abilities is not competent, but maybe the DM wanted you to run away. Considering what he used it should have been a TPK, which is why I think making you run was the goal.
Yep.
But as I said, even I play down encounters to prevent TPKs myself so I'm not even saying that doing so is a BAD thing myself.
That said, anyone have a boss encounter for an AP or adventure at level 9? Why not try a PbP of that encounter with RD's 4 party members and see how well they end up? I'm guessing a pretty quick TPK personally.
Personally, I think RD's GM was probably being fair and that you may not have the full stats on those enemies. But anyways, try this--
Our group had a pretty challenging time with the following encounter that nearly wiped them--they were mostly level 8 with two level 9s, but they had 5 characters plus an NPC that the AP sends with you who's pretty terrible for that area (she's a favoured enemy goblin Ranger, and there's no goblins). The stats for the NPCs are all in Hook Mountain Massacre (AP#3) except for one from the end of Skinsaw Murders AP#2.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.
** spoiler omitted **
The main boss could probably handle things on his own as long as you changed his spell selection. The issue with him was actually hurting him. I changed out the aberrations because I felt like they were useless. The Erinyes was there to take advantage of the battlefield control I decided to lay down.
I just remembered. I am also in the middle of hosting Realm of the Fellnight Queen. If you want to surprise me, you may want to avoid that one.
I wish I had as much free time as you do. I barely have time to make one campaign these days.
Umm...yeah I think that eryines can TPK RD's group by herself...
Possibly, but there's hope. If Hama can get off her Deep Slumber spell and get a lucky roll to beat SR, the fiend is going down.
The big hurdles would be the Erinyes' high initiative and spell resistance. It may well go first and target Hama for destruction. Should that be the case, the party cleric might have a save or screw that targets Will saves as well.
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Umm...yeah I think that eryines can TPK RD's group by herself...Possibly, but there's hope. If Hama can get off her Deep Slumber spell and get a lucky roll to beat SR, the fiend is going down.
The big hurdles would be the Erinyes' high initiative and spell resistance. It may well go first and target Hama for destruction. Should that be the case, the party cleric might have a save or screw that targets Will saves as well.
Deep slumber won't work...she is 13 HD. The cleric may have some save or screw, but if I fly out 100 feet, he can't use any of the short range stuff. If I unlease hell from 200 feet away and take a -2 to attack, your medium range spells are out.
And in REAL combat a single hit kills so you don't need to focus fire. One arrow kills just as well as 10 arrows in real life. Don't try to bring in real life again. D&D and real life combat is about .00000001% accurate. And I'm being generous.
Actually, D&D combat is very accurate...hang on..."accurate" (better?) IF you assume everyone is 1st level. It's those pesky PCs and their more-than-one level that messes everything up.
1d8 Arrows? Often lethal. 2d6 Greatsword? Totally lethal.
And since nobody wears their level on their hat, the average attacker might assume that most targets are 1st level. Though personally I like Vitality/Wound systems, where every arrow can be lethal if you're not lucky. Hit points are a little too much of an abstraction for my tastes.
Umm...yeah I think that eryines can TPK RD's group by herself...Possibly, but there's hope. If Hama can get off her Deep Slumber spell and get a lucky roll to beat SR, the fiend is going down.
The big hurdles would be the Erinyes' high initiative and spell resistance. It may well go first and target Hama for destruction. Should that be the case, the party cleric might have a save or screw that targets Will saves as well.
I just remembered the party had extra people so the EL was higher than it would be for a 4 person party. I guess it would be the Erinyes and the Mind Flayer alone then. If I could find the character sheet I would post its stats.
I will say that trying to melee it is a bad idea though even for your barbarian.
Deep slumber won't work...she is 13 HD. The cleric may have some save or screw, but if I fly out 100 feet, he can't use any of the short range stuff. If I unlease hell from 200 feet away and take a -2 to attack, your medium range spells are out.Umm...yeah I think that eryines can TPK RD's group by herself...Possibly, but there's hope. If Hama can get off her Deep Slumber spell and get a lucky roll to beat SR, the fiend is going down.
The big hurdles would be the Erinyes' high initiative and spell resistance. It may well go first and target Hama for destruction. Should that be the case, the party cleric might have a save or screw that targets Will saves as well.
There is also the problem with Sleet Storm. He can't target the Erinyes until he comes out of it or happens to have True Seeing cast. Those arrows also hurt on the way out. The mindflayer's empowered fireballs or scorching rays could also an issue, even though I decided not to empower them.
Deep slumber won't work...she is 13 HD. The cleric may have some save or screw, but if I fly out 100 feet, he can't use any of the short range stuff. If I unlease hell from 200 feet away and take a -2 to attack, your medium range spells are out.
That's odd, the stat block in the link said 9 HD in the hp section.
And in REAL combat a single hit kills so you don't need to focus fire. One arrow kills just as well as 10 arrows in real life. Don't try to bring in real life again. D&D and real life combat is about .00000001% accurate. And I'm being generous.Actually, D&D combat is very accurate...hang on..."accurate" (better?) IF you assume everyone is 1st level. It's those pesky PCs and their more-than-one level that messes everything up.
1d8 Arrows? Often lethal. 2d6 Greatsword? Totally lethal.
And since nobody wears their level on their hat, the average attacker might assume that most targets are 1st level. Though personally I like Vitality/Wound systems, where every arrow can be lethal if you're not lucky. Hit points are a little too much of an abstraction for my tastes.
Focusing fire is also about making sure the one or two classes on the field that can turn the tide dont get to do so. Taking out the casters almost equals an autowin. There is not a reason to not focus fire really. I don't always do it because I really dont want the party to die, but if I was playing at at 100% lethality the cleric would get it first, and the arcane caster 2nd.
Deep slumber won't work...she is 13 HD. The cleric may have some save or screw, but if I fly out 100 feet, he can't use any of the short range stuff. If I unlease hell from 200 feet away and take a -2 to attack, your medium range spells are out.That's odd, the stat block in the link said 9 HD in the hp section.
It said 9d8+4d8
Focusing fire is also about making sure the one or two classes on the field that can turn the tide dont get to do so. Taking out the casters almost equals an autowin. There is not a reason to not focus fire really. I don't always do it because I really dont want the party to die, but if I was playing at at 100% lethality the cleric would get it first, and the arcane caster 2nd.
Assuming of course, that your NPCs recognized the cleric as a cleric and the arcane caster as a caster? Both our party cleric and Hama excel at not looking like their respective class roles.
It said 9d8+4d8Deep slumber won't work...she is 13 HD. The cleric may have some save or screw, but if I fly out 100 feet, he can't use any of the short range stuff. If I unlease hell from 200 feet away and take a -2 to attack, your medium range spells are out.That's odd, the stat block in the link said 9 HD in the hp section.
Ah. Must have misread it then. In that case, yeah, unless the cleric has something up his sleeve or the other party members are able to do enough damage...
...well, it would be a tough fight with some casualties. If the Erinyes played to her strengths (stayed at a distance and picked off those who can shoot back first) than there wouldn't be much hope I'd imagine.
Focusing fire is also about making sure the one or two classes on the field that can turn the tide dont get to do so. Taking out the casters almost equals an autowin. There is not a reason to not focus fire really. I don't always do it because I really dont want the party to die, but if I was playing at at 100% lethality the cleric would get it first, and the arcane caster 2nd.Assuming of course, that your NPCs recognized the cleric as a cleric and the arcane caster as a caster? Both our party cleric and Hama excel at not looking like their respective class roles.
Hama looks frail according to previous descriptions. The only frail people in an adventuring party are normally the arcane casters. A rogue might look frail, but Hama does not look like a rogue.
The cleric might be able to pass himself off as a fighter until he cast the first spell, but if he is not casting spells then he is doing what I want him to do.
Hama looks frail according to previous descriptions. The only frail people in an adventuring party are normally the arcane casters. A rogue might look frail, but Hama does not look like a rogue.
The cleric might be able to pass himself off as a fighter until he cast the first spell, but if he is not casting spells then he is doing what I want him to do.
There's that gamist thinking again. Most well-played NPCs won't look at a band of travelers and immediately think "adventurers" much less a "nuclear adventuring party" with a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard.
Depending on the situation, they might think "travelers," "outsiders," or "merchants," or something similar. Hama, for example, is far more likely to be mistaken for a beggar when alone, or as a pilgrim with bodyguards when with the party. I imagine it is a very rare group that immediately screams "adventurers" (well, perhaps they might if they had some glowing weapons or something of the sort).
You gotta keep in mind that characters (NPC or otherwise) don't think about the game. They think about the current situation as it exists in the campaign world.
I think this is something that you and others forget far too often when you write posts about the way PCs/NPCs should respond.
There's that gamist thinking again. Most well-played NPCs won't look at a band of travelers and immediately think "adventurers" much less a "nuclear adventuring party" with a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard.
Bull, If I live in a world where people know about wizards and clerics and I am with a group of Paladins ambushing a group of evil doers, my first thought is "do they have a spell caster?" I scan the group I see a bunch of well equipped and tough looking guys and a little old lady they seem to not boss around, good chance shes the caster.
It's not gamist it's thinking like people who live and breath in a world where that is fact. You always look for the casters, always look for the archer or anyone who can strike back at range, then and only then do I worry about the melee guys.
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Honestly for the erynies, the priority target is probably the ranger until hama or the cleric casts a spell of note (then the casters die first). No reason to focus on unknown threats when there is a perfectly viable archer ready to fire back at you. If I do so at 200 feet for safety, then there is a pretty good chance that nether of the caster will do much of note until the cleric heals...in which case, he dies first all of a sudden :P .
Hama looks frail according to previous descriptions. The only frail people in an adventuring party are normally the arcane casters. A rogue might look frail, but Hama does not look like a rogue.
The cleric might be able to pass himself off as a fighter until he cast the first spell, but if he is not casting spells then he is doing what I want him to do.There's that gamist thinking again. Most well-played NPCs won't look at a band of travelers and immediately think "adventurers" much less a "nuclear adventuring party" with a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard.
Depending on the situation, they might think "travelers," "outsiders," or "merchants," or something similar. Hama, for example, is far more likely to be mistaken for a beggar when alone, or as a pilgrim with bodyguards when with the party. I imagine it is a very rare group that immediately screams "adventurers" (well, perhaps they might if they had some glowing weapons or something of the sort).
You gotta keep in mind that characters (NPC or otherwise) don't think about the game. They think about the current situation as it exists in the campaign world.
I think this is something that you and others forget far too often when you write posts about the way PCs/NPCs should respond.
In order for combat to begin there has to be a conflict. Either you are attacking them because your group is evil and is trying to take something. At that point is when the classes would be recognized. I am not saying the NPC's should magically know that people walking down the road are adventures.
The other setup for combat is that they already know who you are, and are trying to take you out, in which case they know you are adventures also.These are not all inclusive examples but you get the point.
I never suggested you guys being randomly targeted.
I assumed we were under the assumption combat was about to begin. In the game certain classes have certain gear. That is how the gameworld works. Wizards don't wear armor, and melee types generally do.
Once again I dont metagame.
Honestly for the erynies, the priority target is probably the ranger until hama or the cleric casts a spell of note (then the casters die first). No reason to focus on unknown threats when there is a perfectly viable archer ready to fire back at you. If I do so at 200 feet for safety, then there is a pretty good chance that nether of the caster will do much of note until the cleric heals...in which case, he dies first all of a sudden :P .
In that particular room there is not 200 feat of safety. If we are using this monster without the actual boss fight then it could be placed anywhere and with an int of 14, and a wisdom of 16 I am sure the fight will be placed at the erynies advantage. Mirror image would also be up before the fight began. By the time the images are eaten through the archer is dead. The summoned bearded devils(summon monster SLA) can probably hit an AC of 17 so they keep the barbarian busy.
In order for combat to begin there has to be a conflict. Either you are attacking them because your group is evil and is trying to take something. At that point is when the classes would be recognized. I am not saying the NPC's should magically know that people walking down the road are adventures.
The other setup for combat is that they already know who you are, and are trying to take you out, in which case they know you are adventures also.
These are not all inclusive examples but you get the point.I never suggested you guys being randomly targeted.
I assumed we were under the assumption combat was about to begin. In the game certain classes have certain gear. That is how the gameworld works....
I agree. It's a good thing our group usually starts out with diplomacy first (we prefer to make allies/pawns rather than watching everything burn).
Most of the fights we have been in are either random encounters with monsters who are just hungry, or in situations like you describe where they already hate us/know who we are. Most other types of encounters end up getting us new allies. (Despite being evil, one of our greatest accomplishments was peacefully ending a war between two nations and bringing them together. Little does anyone know that bringing both nations under the rule of our party benefactor is simply one step in conquering the world).
The half-celestial patrol on the river was one of the few times where we didn't even get a chance to speak to an intelligent enemy before combat started. We assume they attacked us because we had just come out of the hag covey's territory into theirs, so they must have assumed we were messengers of evil or something like that.
You don't often see focused fire in real world tactics (where marines and SWAT teams assign targets to take out whole groups quickly and efficiently), only in games.
That's not true at all.
Sure, when humans shoot humans with guns, there is no need for focused fire because one shot usually does the trick. Humans don't have hundreds of HP, or even dozens, except in games.
But, when real-world militaries want to defeat armored targets, they absolutely use focus-fire. Sinking battleships, for example (read up on Jutland, or on the sinking of the Yamato - surrounded by 7 destroyers circling her for protection, Yamato suffered 8 bomb and at least 11 torpedo hits, but 4 of her destroyer escort survived the battle and returned to Japan).
Yeah, focused-fire is real, even in our real world, and it's used to take down big, dangerous, heavily-armored, hard-to-destroy targets - in D&D, that means PCs. All PCs.
You gotta keep in mind that characters (NPC or otherwise) don't think about the game. They think about the current situation as it exists in the campaign world.
This is exactly why they would know to target Hama. The campaign world has casters, and casters(arcane) are dangerous and normally unarmored.
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Honestly for the erynies, the priority target is probably the ranger until hama or the cleric casts a spell of note (then the casters die first). No reason to focus on unknown threats when there is a perfectly viable archer ready to fire back at you. If I do so at 200 feet for safety, then there is a pretty good chance that nether of the caster will do much of note until the cleric heals...in which case, he dies first all of a sudden :P .In that particular room there is not 200 feat of safety. If we are using this monster without the actual boss fight then it could be placed anywhere and with an int of 14, and a wisdom of 16 I am sure the fight will be placed at the erynies advantage. Mirror image would also be up before the fight began. By the time the images are eaten through the archer is dead. The summoned bearded devils(summon monster SLA) can probably hit an AC of 17 so they keep the barbarian busy.
Yeah I was assuming placing the lone eyrines anywhere (as I have no idea what the room looks like :P ). Engage at 200+ feet, I would focus on the archers unless the obvious caster (hama) showed that she had useful long range spells available. The cleric probably looks more like a fighty type so he would be ignored til he proved otherwise (like say if he had his holy symbol in hand ready to cast spells).
This is exactly why they would know to target Hama. The campaign world has casters, and casters(arcane) are dangerous and normally unarmored.
Though this certainly does not apply to other campaigns, spellcasters in our GM's campaign are almost always aristocracy or other forms of rich, powerful people.
Hama looks like a peasant beggar much of the time.
As for focusing fire on armored targets such as battleships, shouldn't that logic then mean that the full-plate warrior (who is actually a cleric) should take most of the hits in hopes that at least one arrow will get through the armor and kill him?
Most of the fights we have been in are either random encounters with monsters who are just hungry, or in situations like you describe where they already hate us/know who we are. Most other types of encounters end up getting us new allies. (Despite being evil, one of our greatest accomplishments was peacefully ending a war between two nations and bringing them together. Little does anyone know that bringing both nations under the rule of our party benefactor is simply one step in conquering the world).
The half-celestial patrol on the river was one of the few times where we didn't even get a chance to speak to an intelligent enemy before combat started. We assume they attacked us because we had just come out of the hag covey's territory into theirs, so they must have assumed we were messengers of evil or something like that.
That may be the current campaign, but I am talking about combat and targeting certain people. Once the dice are rolling because you had to fight an intelligent enemy the casters get it first. I would not expect a random stupid monster to know who to target though. The goal of the campaign you are in and battle tactics are too completely different things.
That may be the current campaign, but I am talking about combat and targeting certain people. Once the dice are rolling because you had to fight an intelligent enemy the casters get it first. I would not expect a random stupid monster to know who to target though. The goal of the campaign you are in and battle tactics are too completely different things.
I've only ever been defending our campaign anyways.
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You don't often see focused fire in real world tactics (where marines and SWAT teams assign targets to take out whole groups quickly and efficiently), only in games.That's not true at all.
Sure, when humans shoot humans with guns, there is no need for focused fire because one shot usually does the trick. Humans don't have hundreds of HP, or even dozens, except in games.
But, when real-world militaries want to defeat armored targets, they absolutely use focus-fire. Sinking battleships, for example (read up on Jutland, or on the sinking of the Yamato - surrounded by 7 destroyers circling her for protection, Yamato suffered 8 bomb and at least 11 torpedo hits, but 4 of her destroyer escort survived the battle and returned to Japan).
Yeah, focused-fire is real, even in our real world, and it's used to take down big, dangerous, heavily-armored, hard-to-destroy targets - in D&D, that means PCs. All PCs.
Good point. I forgot about navel combat. And PC and the things they fight are pretty much the game world eqv. of battleships.
This is exactly why they would know to target Hama. The campaign world has casters, and casters(arcane) are dangerous and normally unarmored.Though this certainly does not apply to other campaigns, spellcasters in our GM's campaign are almost always aristocracy or other forms of rich, powerful people.
Hama looks like a peasant beggar much of the time.
I don't know your campaign. I can only use generic D&D as a basis. Either way the runt(physically) in a party is usually the caster. If the runt had no abilities he would not be on the battlefield. At the least I would assume he is the brains of the operation. He/she has to serve some purpose.
That may be the current campaign, but I am talking about combat and targeting certain people. Once the dice are rolling because you had to fight an intelligent enemy the casters get it first. I would not expect a random stupid monster to know who to target though. The goal of the campaign you are in and battle tactics are too completely different things.I've only ever been defending our campaign anyways.
I understand, but the topic at one point was recognizing classes or roles of people in combat. I am sure even in your world fighters wear armor, monks dont, casters have spell component pouches. In other words there are ways to figure out who may be doing what.
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This is exactly why they would know to target Hama. The campaign world has casters, and casters(arcane) are dangerous and normally unarmored.Though this certainly does not apply to other campaigns, spellcasters in our GM's campaign are almost always aristocracy or other forms of rich, powerful people.
Hama looks like a peasant beggar much of the time.
As for focusing fire on armored targets such as battleships, shouldn't that logic then mean that the full-plate warrior (who is actually a cleric) should take most of the hits in hopes that at least one arrow will get through the armor and kill him?
In a world with magic, armor isn't the most armored thing. In anycase, You go after the biggest threat...which for a devil flying 200+ feet away may not be the cleric and wizard who may not have useful long range spells...but the archer who can dish it out as well as you can.
This is exactly why they would know to target Hama. The campaign world has casters, and casters(arcane) are dangerous and normally unarmored.Though this certainly does not apply to other campaigns, spellcasters in our GM's campaign are almost always aristocracy or other forms of rich, powerful people.
Hama looks like a peasant beggar much of the time.
As for focusing fire on armored targets such as battleships, shouldn't that logic then mean that the full-plate warrior (who is actually a cleric) should take most of the hits in hopes that at least one arrow will get through the armor and kill him?
No. A fighter can't cast a spell that can take out a group. In the game world only the casters can single handedly turn a battle around or win a fight. One guy has a sword, and another guy bends the rules of reality. I think I will kill Mr.Reality Bender.
If RD can win this with his four PCs, I'd say they could take pretty much anything level appropriate easily.** spoiler omitted **
Like I said earlier, I ended up so bored that I ran this with a friend. The end result was a full on TPK. The only monster to drop was Lucretia, and they just used one of the party's potions on her to heal her up after the fight.
I think it ended with Lia, transformed into a zombie by Barl, coup de gracing Grummish who was unconcious due to 0 wisdom from wisdom drain.
I don't know your campaign. I can only use generic D&D as a basis. Either way the runt(physically) in a party is usually the caster. If the runt had no abilities he would not be on the battlefield. At the least I would assume he is the brains of the operation. He/she has to serve some purpose.
I know you don't. That's why I keep going on and on about the campaign.
More often then not, the battlefield comes to us. And in that context, many of my arguments (for our campaign at least) are perfectly valid.
It is one thing for Hama to seek out trouble (such as when seeking out and defeating one group to gain the aid of another), but quite another when trouble accidentally finds her. In the latter case, no one has any reason to believe her to be anything more than a peasant or pilgrim.
In a world with magic, armor isn't the most armored thing. In anycase, You go after the biggest threat...which for a devil flying 200+ feet away may not be the cleric and wizard who may not have useful long range spells...but the archer who can dish it out as well as you can.
I agree.
No. A fighter can't cast a spell that can take out a group. In the game world only the casters can single handedly turn a battle around or win a fight. One guy has a sword, and another guy bends the rules of reality. I think I will kill Mr.Reality Bender.
If I knew a target to be a spellcaster, or even suspected it, I would likely do the same. No disagreements there.
Like I said earlier, I ended up so bored that I ran this with a friend. The end result was a full on TPK. The only monster to drop was Lucretia, and they just used one of the party's potions on her to heal her up after the fight.
I think it ended with Lia, transformed into a zombie by Barl, coup de gracing Grummish who was unconcious due to 0 wisdom from wisdom drain.
From what I saw of the encounter, I can't say I am the least bit surprised. Ability damage in particular will take out even high level characters pretty quick.
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I don't know your campaign. I can only use generic D&D as a basis. Either way the runt(physically) in a party is usually the caster. If the runt had no abilities he would not be on the battlefield. At the least I would assume he is the brains of the operation. He/she has to serve some purpose.I know you don't. That's why I keep going on and on about the campaign.
More often then not, the battlefield comes to us. And in that context, many of my arguments (for our campaign at least) are perfectly valid.
It is one thing for Hama to seek out trouble (such as when seeking out and defeating one group to gain the aid of another), but quite another when trouble accidentally finds her. In the latter case, no one has any reason to believe her to be anything more than a peasant or pilgrim.
If she was by herself I agree...but when she is with the party...umm no. Why would a group of heavily armored and armed people hang around ONE peasant or pilgrim? That makes no sense...so in a world of magic, it is not unreasonable to assume your more then you seem. Now if you disguised yourself to ACTIVELY look like your not a part of the party, then it becomes a disguise vs perception check. Yes I have had casters who would max out disguise so they really did look like non-casters (at least until they cast a spell that wasn't silent, stilled and echew materialed). And even then a spellcraft check stillc ould find them out. But without an active disguise, yeah you really do stick out.
If she was by herself I agree...but when she is with the party...umm no. Why would a group of heavily armored and armed people hang around ONE peasant or pilgrim? That makes no sense...so in a world of magic, it is not unreasonable to assume your more then you seem. Now if you disguised yourself to ACTIVELY look like your not a part of the party, then it becomes a disguise vs perception check. Yes I have had casters who would max out disguise so they really did look like non-casters (at least until they cast a spell that wasn't silent, stilled and echew materialed). And even then a spellcraft check stillc ould find them out. But without an active disguise, yeah you really do stick out.
Depending on the encounter, Hama usually starts with a disguise and/or discreet charm person (assuming not immediately attacked).
I forgot about navel combat.
Belly button combat? Yikes! I attack the lint!!!
(sorry, I normally let spelling errors and typos go - lord knows I make plenty of my own - but belly button lint is always just too funny to pass up...)